What to do when kid hates/refuses to take notes?

[mirabillis]

Help! Please don't quote as I may not keep this...

 

My 15 yo absolutely refuses to take notes on his textbook-reading. And I feel this is his weak spot - passive reading that he is not retaining like he should. I've read and read everywhere that the physical act of WRITING helps you retain great amounts of info. He seems nearly allergic to picking up a pen/pencil. Prefers to jot down notes on the computer - but I feel this isn't as good.

 

How do I compel/encourage a reluctant note-writer to take the first step to taking notes?

I feel he can start off slow, but the benefits would be tremendous. 

He feels it takes twice the time - so what do I do?

[regentrude]

Does he have dysgraphia? Is handwriting difficult for him in general?

If so, I would allow note taking on the computer.

[EKS]

You're not going to make him want to take notes.  He's not going to want to do it until he feels like he *needs* to.  And, depending on circumstances, that may not happen until college or ever.

 

You're right, the physical act of writing can be helpful for retention, but if he's hating every minute of it or if the process causes him physical pain, then it probably won't be as helpful.  Also, he's right, it does take longer, which is probably one reason it helps with retention.

 

But there are other ways to retain information.  For example, you could require him to write a concise summary after reading.  I would say that summary writing, particularly writing a summary along with analysis, is actually better for long term retention.

 

Or you could simply grade his notes.

[charlotteb]

Notes are a requirement for my kids, starting in middle school grades.  I personally would not make it an option, because there are so many great benefits to it! I would make the notes part of the grade, and let him know that he can decide what kind of grade he wants by deciding to do the notes or not. 

[Arcadia]

Firstly, how is his typed notes?

My kids write some and type some. I check for quality rather than whether it is typed or written or drawn (mind maps). I haven't seen a significant reduction of retention from typing yet from my kids and they had typed since kindergarten. My oldest is allergic to a pencil/pen until he takes exams and he knows he can only use pencil and/or pens. He did the AP exams in pencil as he prefer pencils to pens when given a choice. When his writing stamina was really pathetic, my husband did a lot of discussions with him to make sure retention is there for factual subjects like Biology, History, and Geology/Physical Geography/Earth Science.

 

Secondly, didn't he use Thinkwell? Did he made his own notes for the Thinkwell lectures?

My kids aren't good note takers yet. We started off with history documentaries summaries in point form. They have nothing except the YouTube video so they have to re-watch if they miss out information. Not all of my high school and college lecturers give complete notes which is to prevent us from skipping classes or sleeping in class so we had to write down salient points. History was just the most convenient subject for us to practice note taking.

 

Then my oldest did the Shakespeare Romeo & Juliet class so that he can learn annotations from someone else. He doesn't like to annotate but at least he knows how to now.

 

For the maths and sciences including computer science, it was the doing all those problems and then rereading when stuck so we haven't done any note taking for those yet. I condensed my science/engineering subjects into a cheat sheet when studying for exams in high school and college and my oldest can do something similar now for high school level subjects.

 

ETA:

My kids didn't like the Cornell style for notes and I figured if any teacher has a particular requirement my kids would just adapt to it when the time comes.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Arcadia

[Roadrunner]

I would preread his assignment and develop a set of questions that he needs to answer in writing. It's more work on your part, but part of what makes note taking hard for kids is sometimes not knowing what's important. Your questions can eliminate that problem, focusing him to take notes on key elements of the text.

The alternative would be to give him same study questions and require him to be able to answer those questions orally in full.

[Liza Q]

My oldest was resistant so I let it go during High School. We discussed her reading in all subjects and she always seemed to have retained enough. She quickly learned, in college, that some classes/subjects really needed notes. So she found a method that worked for her and did very well.

 

My 2nd was always ok with writing out notes and just took more in college. I haven't pushed it as hard with my younger two. They'll do what they need to do - it's not too difficult to learn.

[lewelma]

Teach him how to outline directly in the text. Underline the main point, and then a, b, c and 1,2,3 all the subpoints. This forces a reader to read with intent and focus, but does not require any note taking. Then when it is time to study, you simply read the underlined main point and turn it into a question in your mind then answer with the subpoints. Easy to check your oral answers because you have numbered the subpoints.

 

It is also good to link graphs or diagrams to the subpoints in the text so that you pay attention to evidence and can use it in your answers when you quiz yourself.

 

Ruth in NZ

[quark]

Like some pps, I am a fan of annotating directly in the text. Mine doodles and takes notes for math in a notebook but annotates in the text or directly on supplementary reading materials for all other subjects. I love the idea of physically writing notes and studying from summaries but for some kids that is either not necessary if they have good working memory and/ or it can be truly frustrating when their minds are rearing to go to the next step. How is his performance on the studied material? If not satisfactory, could he record notes into a voice recorder as he reads and then play it back?

[SparklyUnicorn]

My 15 year old is the same way.  I have done a few different things.  Sometimes I use materials that have review questions and I make him do the questions (typing if he wants to and he usually chooses to).  That to me is a form of note taking because the questions usually focus on important points from the reading (and nearly all school textbooks have them).  Sometimes I make him take notes on some chapters simply so I can see that he CAN do it well enough if he ever needs to or wants to.  But I don't make him do it every single time.  And sometimes I test him on the material.  If he does well enough, I can't argue with his methods (or lack of methods).  He's taken three college courses now and he takes notes in class no problem and he does the homework.  He has never taken notes from the book (although they have all been math classes so that's a bit different I suppose).  He did really well so, again, I cannot argue with his methods. 

 

I regularly give him pointers for how to study for different subjects.  You figure too, the prof generally goes over the points in class that he/she wants the student to focus on.  And students take notes in class.  For someone who hates, or has difficulty with, the physical act of writing, it's probably not as helpful.  I could write probably for 10 hours straight without a problem.  I don't mind writing though.  My son hates it and has very bad handwriting.  That said, I don't ever recall taking notes from my reading for college courses.  Ever.  Never.  Which might sound kinda weird, but I never felt the need.  I did do the reading.  I did go over class notes and study them.  I did reflect upon the important points and was able to focus on them because teachers generally tell you what to focus on.  Only time I ever took notes from something was when writing a research paper or other types of papers. 

 

 

Edited August 30, 2017 by SparklyUnicorn

[JanetC]

One kid wouldn't do things unless there was a reason. For example, the music teacher kept pushing the metronome, but it was unused until the pieces she was working on were too hard to learn without it.

 

You could become the tough teacher and make those notes absolutely necessary: Tons of reading. Killer tests. No way to reread everything before the test.

[MerryAtHope]

My son thanked me after he got to college for making him take notes.  I taught my kids to do T-notes (Cornell). 

 

Since your son is taking notes on computer, I think there are two ways of looking at this:

 

1, let it go and hope that when he actually needs to/has to do them by hand, he'll be able to

2, unless he has a diagnosable disability like dysgraphia, have him work on this skill throughout high school so he'll be able to write faster/more fluently when he gets to college. Think not only about note-taking abut also about essay tests that will require writing in class in a specific amount of time. If hand-writing is hold him back, better to think about how to help him with this now is my thought. 

[Paige]

With my kids, I started teaching note taking by reading through the text with them and telling them what to write. We started a lot younger, though. You could do like a lot of PS HS teachers and take your own notes and make him copy them by hand or type them himself after you discuss the material. In school, they'd do it during the lecture.

 

Then, I gradually quit telling them what to write but would pause and ask them what we should write- (What was important about that paragraph?). Only after doing that for a while, I would have them read and take notes on their own and then check their notes. I'd add in what they'd missed when checking it if needed. IMO, note taking is a skill that takes a lot of scaffolding. 

[TarynB]

I had a teacher who encouraged good note-taking by making each test or quiz "open note" (not "open textbook").

[mirabillis]

Does he have dysgraphia? Is handwriting difficult for him in general?

If so, I would allow note taking on the computer.

 

no he has lazy-graphia. ;-)

[mirabillis]

But there are other ways to retain information.  For example, you could require him to write a concise summary after reading.  I would say that summary writing, particularly writing a summary along with analysis, is actually better for long term retention.

 

i like this idea or another reader's idea of answering the summary questions (written or computer) and maybe rotating between requiring summary / answering questions / note-taking.

[mirabillis]

Firstly, how is his typed notes?

 

disorganized in my opinion

 

Secondly, didn't he use Thinkwell? Did he made his own notes for the Thinkwell lectures?

 

yes he did but he did not feel he did well enough. and no, he took no notes. hence the passing but not excelling score. ;-) that's why i'm harping on the note-taking b/c passive reading/watching for this kid with no written output does.not.work. and when something's broke, you gotta fix it.

 

Then my oldest did the Shakespeare Romeo & Juliet class so that he can learn annotations from someone else. He doesn't like to annotate but at least he knows how to now.

 

he starts roy speed's romeo & juliet next week.

 

[mirabillis]

Teach him how to outline directly in the text. Underline the main point, and then a, b, c and 1,2,3 all the subpoints. This forces a reader to read with intent and focus, but does not require any note taking. Then when it is time to study, you simply read the underlined main point and turn it into a question in your mind then answer with the subpoints. Easy to check your oral answers because you have numbered the subpoints.

 

he has an online text for one class - and we printed out the chapter reading for today and found highlighting the main ideas, then coming back and note-taking on the highlighted portions might be workable.

 

i'm not fond of writing directly in texts though as he's the oldest of many coming after him. ;-)

[mirabillis]

My son thanked me after he got to college for making him take notes. 

 

that's what i'm hoping for. he writes great for timed essays, all his FRQs on ap tests last year, all the month-long FRQ practice, etc. so he can do it. he just doesn't like to.

[Miss Mousie]

I had a teacher who encouraged good note-taking by making each test or quiz "open note" (not "open textbook").

 

I have adopted this method for one class this year.  I am hoping it gets the point across and spreads to other note-worthy (ha) classes!

[MerryAtHope]

I have adopted this method for one class this year.  I am hoping it gets the point across and spreads to other note-worthy (ha) classes!

I did something like this too, for history one year--if my kids got something wrong on a test but could find the correct answer in their notes, I let them earn back that point. 

Edited September 2, 2017 by MerryAtHope

[Mandylubug]

My boys' quizzes and tests are open notes now and they have miraculously started doing better.

[SparklyUnicorn]

The open notes thing is brilliant.

 

 

[J-rap]

I don't think my kids took many notes at age 15 if they didn't have to.

 

Does he know how to take notes if he must?

 

We used to do simple exercises like: 

 

Listen to a short (could be 5 minutes) documentary or something, and then re-tell it to me in one paragraph (either through speaking or writing).  

 

(Sometimes we used something much shorter even -- a 60 second news clip, for example.)

 

Take a one piece article, and have them boil it down to one paragraph.

 

Listen to a clip or read an article about something, and simply answer (in writing) Who, What, Where, How many, When.  (And whatever else you want to throw in there!)  They can answer these as they are listening/reading.

 

Those skills work on summarizing and picking out pieces of important information, but with practice, you get better at knowing what's important.  So, it's not exactly note-taking, but it helped them work at paying attention and picking out important information, which I felt would help them with note-taking when they really needed to do it.

 

 

Edited September 2, 2017 by J-rap

[Mom22ns]

My kids never took notes from textbooks.They did take some on Thinkwell and other video lectures we used, but not a ton. I love the idea of open-note quizes and tests to provide motivation!

 

I taught note taking and my kids did what practice I required, but I think they'd have gone into open rebellion if I'd tried to make them do an entire text-book. I can't honestly say I could stick with that myself. Highlighting - yes, annotating, maybe (use stickies to keep the book readable for the next kid), but never a full set of notes.

[mirabillis]

I'm still trying to figure out what to do. These textbooks are for outsourced classes, so I can't use the clever trick to allow 'open notes' for quizzes/tests. But although he's balking, I feel it's necessary for some written notes. Right now, for one online book, we are printing chapter by chapter and then he can highlight key ideas - and he physically writes notes from these. I think that should certainly help cement the concepts? I feel pretty good about this.

 

Cornell notes never interested this kid. I also like the idea of just writing up a summary... he's starting reading Chemistry this week. Any thoughts on what kind of notes (if I am requiring them) he should take to help retain info? I don't want it to be so onerous, but on the other hand, passively reading I do not feel will help him retain the knowledge....

 

[Ausmumof3]

Note taking helps some people but not others.

 

Would he be more open to the idea of making verbal notes like in Evernote with speech clips or something that he can then listen to memorise.

[Ausmumof3]

Also just some other ideas he could do notes in picture or cartoon format. Etc. I do think retention is better with some kind of output but it doesn't have to be written.

[mirabillis]

He does what I ask - he just doesn't care for it. So I'm keen on trying to require hand-written notes.

 

Any other ideas on just what sort I can require that won't kill him?

 

The highlight on the printed-out text and transcribing is working for 1 subject.

Any other ideas? ;-) Minimal, but effective?

Edited September 4, 2017 by mirabillis

[gstharr]

I was a very average student through H.S, and my first semester at a cc. A chance comment to a student next to me that I wish I had her grades turned everything around.  She told me to meet her in the library. She spent five minutes looking at my textbook and class notes. 50% of my text was highlighted or underlined.  My class notes consisted of me trying to transcribe the lecture until I couldn't keep up (maybe 10 minutes of lecture) and then giving up note taking  for the rest of the class.  First question she asked me was whether I skimmed the material ahead of the lecture. For example, if Monday's lecture was chapter 2, did I review any of it ahead of time? She said if just skimmed over the materials ahead of the lecture, I would know what was important , what  I didn't know,  what was a new concept, and what clarified something.. That alone greatly improved note taking and study skill-- I wasn't trying to write everything down. Worked even for math--If I had tried to solve a new problem or two before the lecture, even the math lectures made more sense.

 

The next thing she told me to do was throw away the highlighters.  She handed me one of her textbooks, and asked me to read a certain page.  When I promptly turned to the page, she slammed it shut.  She said that I didn't look at the title of the book, did not read the preface, did not skim over the table of contents, did not look at the chapter heading or section heading before I turned to the page,  She told me to use the book's table of contents  for my beginning outline.  Just write down the Chapter title, the section headings  and every subsection heading just as outlined in the textbook's TOC.  Now,when I finished reading, look over my beginning outline, and write down what I remembered as important ---in as few words as possible -- under each heading of my outline.  Now, reread  the material and then review my notes,  She said the notes were good if I could look at my notes and explain the concept clearly. If I could not, add a few more comments to my notes and repeat the process.  

 

The last thing, was to take my notes to class, and skim them while listening to the lecture.  Did the teacher add or explain anything better?   add to or revise my outline as soon as possible.  She spent about 45 minutes with me. It turned everything around for me academically.  it was surprisingly simple. But, this was the first time it was ever explained to me. . 

[AMJ]

I was a very average student through H.S, and my first semester at a cc. A chance comment to a student next to me that I wish I had her grades turned everything around.  She told me to meet her in the library. She spent five minutes looking at my textbook and class notes. 50% of my text was highlighted or underlined.  My class notes consisted of me trying to transcribe the lecture until I couldn't keep up (maybe 10 minutes of lecture) and then giving up note taking  for the rest of the class.  First question she asked me was whether I skimmed the material ahead of the lecture. For example, if Monday's lecture was chapter 2, did I review any of it ahead of time? She said if just skimmed over the materials ahead of the lecture, I would know what was important , what  I didn't know,  what was a new concept, and what clarified something.. That alone greatly improved note taking and study skill-- I wasn't trying to write everything down. Worked even for math--If I had tried to solve a new problem or two before the lecture, even the math lectures made more sense.

 

The next thing she told me to do was throw away the highlighters.  She handed me one of her textbooks, and asked me to read a certain page.  When I promptly turned to the page, she slammed it shut.  She said that I didn't look at the title of the book, did not read the preface, did not skim over the table of contents, did not look at the chapter heading or section heading before I turned to the page,  She told me to use the book's table of contents  for my beginning outline.  Just write down the Chapter title, the section headings  and every subsection heading just as outlined in the textbook's TOC.  Now,when I finished reading, look over my beginning outline, and write down what I remembered as important ---in as few words as possible -- under each heading of my outline.  Now, reread  the material and then review my notes,  She said the notes were good if I could look at my notes and explain the concept clearly. If I could not, add a few more comments to my notes and repeat the process.  

 

The last thing, was to take my notes to class, and skim them while listening to the lecture.  Did the teacher add or explain anything better?   add to or revise my outline as soon as possible.  She spent about 45 minutes with me. It turned everything around for me academically.  it was surprisingly simple. But, this was the first time it was ever explained to me. . 

 

 

I will try this with my DDs!  Thank you for sharing!

[Clemsondana]

Are you and your son on the same page with what it means to 'take notes'? My older kid used a writing curriculum that had a short section on outlining...it basically had you write the entire paper, but broken down into outline form. So, when I said that I wanted kid to outline a paper, grumbling ensued. Then I explained that all I wanted was a main topic phrase for each paragraph, with 3ish words denoting what the supporting details were going to be.

 

That's a lot of intro to...are you wanting (or does he think that you want) 'pretty' notes? My notes tend to be a bunch of words and phrases connected by arrows, and I have my own shorthand, where a particular kind of arrow means 'causing' where another kind means 'happens next', for example. And, the more familiar the material, the less I write.

 

I don't think that there's anything magical about taking notes from the book, though - any active process that uses the material would help him to learn it. Instead of traditional 'notes', would he make Venn diagrams, flowcharts, information tables comparing different aspects of whatever he's working on, etc? Students who don't like to write sometimes like these because they don't have to write a lot of words, but they are still engaging with the material.

[Arcadia]

yes he did but he did not feel he did well enough. and no, he took no notes. hence the passing but not excelling score. ;-) that's why i'm harping on the note-taking b/c passive reading/watching for this kid with no written output does.not.work. and when something's broke, you gotta fix it.

 

Maybe this Harvard guide might help convince him.

 

"Your college reading assignments will probably be more substantial and more sophisticated than those you are used to from high school. The amount of reading will almost certainly be greater. College students rarely have the luxury of successive re- readings of material, either, given the pace of life in and out of the classroom.

 

While the strategies below are (for the sake of clarity) listed sequentially, you can probably do most of them simultaneously.

...

1. Previewing: Look “around†the text before you start reading.

You’ve probably engaged in one version of previewing in the past, when you’ve tried to determine how long an assigned reading is (and how much time and energy, as a result, it will demand from you). But you can learn a great deal more about the organization and purpose of a text by taking note of features other than its length.

...

2. Annotating: Make your reading thinking-intensive from start to finish.

Annotating puts you actively and immediately in a "dialogue†with an author and the issues and ideas you encounter in a written text. It's also a way to have an ongoing conversation with yourself as you move through the text and to record what that encounter was like for you.

...

3. Outline, summarize, analyze: Take the information apart, look at its parts, and then try to put it back together again in language that is meaningful to you.

The best way to determine that you’ve really gotten the point is to be able to state it in your own words

...

4. Look for repetitions and patterns:

The way language is chosen, used, positioned in a text can be important indication of what an author considers crucial and what he expects you to glean from his argument. It can also alert you to ideological positions, hidden agendas or biases.

...

5. Contextualize: Once you’ve finished reading actively and annotating, take stock for a moment and put it in perspective. When you contextualize, you essentially "re-view" a text you've encountered, framed by its historical, cultural, material,

or intellectual circumstances.

...

6. Compare and Contrast: Set course readings against each other to determine their relationships (hidden or explicit)."

Source (2 page PDF) http://guides.library.harvard.edu/ld.php?content_id=12548868