Rural development

[Guest]

Surveys seem not to help. People want services in case they want to use them. There was a huge uproar in my town last year because a service people didn't use closed down. :lol: They didn't use it. But they *might* have wanted to!

 

 

And yes, I quite agree that different towns would need to use different strategies for growth. Our governments say "jobs and growth" a lot, but they don't seem to do a lot about it. People vote for them because they say "jobs and growth," then write lots of negative letters to the editor when someone wants to open a business.

 

I'm still interested in what solutions other people/governments in other places have found because I am a stickybeak.

There is a nonprofit here that is working in the region,.showing the various communities possibilities. The survey in my town showed that the elderly want no growth, and they want tourism of the day trip variety if the tourist drops enough money..destination weddings on an existing farm, haunted house on existing farm, busses on a wine trail. The current business owners would rather have a vacant main street than shut down and let an out of towner in. The only new business that is welcome is medical...they have asked a large practice in the large town nearby to open a satellite office.

 

The nonprofit has sat down and shown the monopolist nimbys the math. If you want viable business, you need to invest in yourself. Buildings and sidewalks that haven't been touched since the late 50s don't work. Roads and parking lots that are swimming pools after rain dont work. Folks are shopping along the commute because they cant get reaspnably priced in town. Amazon,Home Depot, Lowes, etc are here. In other words,your monopoly is long gone and 'buy local' is.not enough reason to pay the jacked up prices...the rich from the city have the money, the locals don't and neither want to buy at overinflated prices.

[shawthorne44]

Why are the towns so far apart? The area is still farmland? Or wasteland no one could live on?

 

Here, an hour and a half commute is fairly normal, but 100 miles is more than that.

 

 

The US doesn't seem to have much public transport either. We have a reasonable regional train network. Not perfect, by any stretch, but it provides options.

 

 

 

Why are the towns so far apart? 

     Because we can be.   Most towns were originally farm towns, so the area around them was farmland.   

 

 

Back to your original question, I don't think that you could plop down an industry in a rural area.   You'd never be able to find enough capable people to work there.  If an industry grew in a rural location, then the people, and other stuff would grow along with.  

 

 

What I see happening for rural development, is sprawl from the big city keeps growing.  My little (3K people) rural town is a perfect example.    20 years ago, it was a farm town in major decline.  Now it is a suburb of what had been a suburb of a suburb of a big city.   We have internet, but only one choice, and they know it.  

[prairiewindmomma]

 

 

--

Edited August 2, 2017 by kbeal

[prairiewindmomma]

I started my post at lunch, and just now finished it. As I'm reading all of the discussion that happened in the meantime, I think most of my points have been hit upon.

 

--

Edited August 2, 2017 by kbeal

[Twolittleboys]

Still, the more I think about it the more I feel that a critical mass is needed in a town (or at least in the region) in order to support businesses and jobs. It may be different if there is healthy agriculture or a factory etc. that supports the majority of people but that isn't so likely to happen if it isn't already the case.

 

A town of less than 1,000 for example just won't support many restaurants, stores, entertainment venues etc. So I think at least modest growth is essential.

[Guest]

I'm not unfamiliar with the problems in rural towns. Oh, broadband! I can't even get decent phone reception when I'm standing on a chair outside on a sunny, wind-less day! The solutions, though. Presumably there aren't quick fixes, or we all wouldn't still have the problems, but I'm interested in whether the rest of the world has any worth pinching. :D

 

It is unreasonable to expect a large company to move to a sparsely populated, poor area. But if they can move to regional cities, that allows smaller towns to become commuter cities, which is one step.

 

I'm interested in call centres too. Why do call centres need to be in the major cities? (I'm not really sure how to refer to the towns I mean. In Australia, the capital city is where pretty much all the white collar jobs are. Even call centres, that surely could be located elsewhere. We have rural cities, but only one major city per state. I think this is not the case in the US, since I didn't even realise until a few years ago that Miami wasn't the capital of Florida.)

 

I'm not big on industrial welfare either.

The way I see it rural Australia has one major problem: venomous snakes. ðŸ˜

[Kalmia]

There is an old paper mill town in my state that is trying to recover economically by encouraging everyone to buy food from the local farms and encouraging all the local businesses support each other through use of local products. Here is a lovely video about the work being done there. In this particular case a woman opened a grain mill and processed local grains. A brewery opened using the local grains. Etc.

 

Video: Maineland: How a Woman with an Old School Business Idea Brought New Life to a Dying Maine Town

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/maineland-how-a-mill-helped-revitalize-skowhegan-maine-2016-10

Edited July 31, 2017 by Kalmia

[Guest]

I think there are cycles to things, as well...what works for a few decades for a town can get wearying.  

 

I'm familiar with a couple of small towns...enough to think I can say something but not enough to be sure I really know what I am talking about.  But it seems to me...

 

...the the town that thrived for years on being oh-so-careful about who they let into town re: business and how things had to look (*this* kind of sign, *that* kind of Christmas decoration and heaven-forbid actual infrastructure services...and damnation to anything "chainstore" ... that town is now experiencing a downturn.  You can't *live* there and buy things you need.  You have to go between 1 and 20 miles away to get basic daily stuff.  And the 1-mile away vendors haven't been that red hot.  There is nothing related to manufacturing near the town.  

 

...the town that died after all its one major industry moved offshore.  Main Street was a ghost town for many years, very depressing.  Many of the people had to move out....but enough stayed to keep it a real town.  Now it is on the upswing again.  Tech has moved in *in a small way* because it is cheap to live there as opposed to the major city one hour away.  SERIOUSLY cheaper.  Houses are 1/3 the price.  The scenery is better.  Shops that sell beautiful things, that have interesting or particular kinds of offerings are moving in (and OUT of the other town!)

 

Diversity of industry / services seems to be a benefit to long-term survival.  You can only be "cute" for so long.  It wears out, and then you have to "cute up" again.  My dh and I talked about recently is that towns that have a high percentage of transient voters seem to have rockier times long term. We used to live in a college town, and the college students who bore NONE of the consequences of their votes were able to swing elections and therefore policies and plans in ways that the steady population didn't want to go, but bore the brunt of.  The same thing is happening now in an area where people come to retire for a few years before they go back to the big city for better medical care or to be near their children.  The steadiness of a population will have a lot to do with what kinds of businesses and services can last in a particular place.  

 

A town we used to live in is struggling now.  The businesses that seem to be doing the best are those which offer an experience along with the goods.  A lot of people come to the beautiful location BECAUSE there is a gourmet cooking-school-for-a-week.  Or a brew-pub crawl.  Or a quilting class/trek (where you go to as many quilt stores as you can in a summer and make a quilt from their unique blocks).   OR the stores that have 4 skillion items for sale that have the name of town printed/engraved/silkscreened/carved into them.  :0/

 

The other ones that are doing well are the ones that have an extremely high quality and unique product.  But you can't get fresh produce without going out of town, and you would never really say it out loud that sometimes you just want a Big Mac.  

 

:0)

 

[Rosie_0801]

Our town of 20,000 has a hospital, but the reason it is sustainable is that our town is the largest town in the area (next largest cities are 1.5-2 hours driving to the North, West,and East, and several hours drive to the South). It serves the population of 200,000 in the entire region. 

 

20,000 people alone cannot sustain a medical center that offers specialist care. They can sustain f amily practice and pediatrician.

 

Yes, this is why I keep getting confused. There are differences in our use of medical terminology.

 

Our town of three and a half thousand ish has a medical centre with four regular doctors (what I think you call an MD,) a nurse practitioner, a dentist, small pathology unit (they take the samples but send them away for testing) and about a dozen visiting specialists who work between two or three towns. There are hospitals with emergency departments about 40mins away in two different directions. One a small hospital, one city sized.

[Rosie_0801]

The destination town idea is good but requires someone with ongoing motivation/ expertise. Makes me think of the novel "readers of broken wheel recommend".

 

I'd love to see Australia learn to cultivate and market more native foods as well, but I don't know how realistic that is.

 

Do I need to read that book?

 

Ooh, there's a lot of work being done around the place! Try following Bruce Pascoe if you are on FB.

[Rosie_0801]

Sometimes insurance companies contract with specific pharmacies. If you don't use those pharmacies you pay much higher prices for meds.

 

I lived in a planned city. We love it. Sometimes we talk about downsizing to somewhere less expensive, but smaller towns and rural locations often don't have the wheelchair accessibility we need. I imagine this keeps the senior population from retiring there. Main streets are cute and all, but if they're full of protected historic buildings, we literally can't get in the door to do business there.

 

Your insurance model seems incredibly burdensome. A person should be able to see whatever doctor is handy and shop at whatever pharmacy is closest. 

 

 

Ah yes, historical protections. They are good to a point. In the ridiculously run council next door to us, they'd rather the town died rather than relax the historical protection rules. One shop has the tiles falling off the outside because they're not allowed to fix them unless they use the same tiles that are no longer made. Another no longer has a floor because the right kind of wood has to be used to fix it. I don't see why, since a good tradesman could work magic with the right tin of lacquer.

[Rosie_0801]

Schools are a big problem in rural US, too. Boarding schools are not very common; most kids go to school in their communities. The high school education of the small rural schools is often not particularly good. It is simply not feasible for a school with a class size of ten students to hire qualified teachers for upper level subjects. Math and foreign languages are often pitiful, as I hear from conversations with my college students - a large portion of them comes from small towns in our state and feels short changed by their crappy schools.

 

I wonder whether models like our school of the air could help. I don't know enough about the workings to venture a guess.

[elegantlion]

The few things that irritated me about living in the small town 10k was that there was little to nothing for teens to do except drugs. They even voted 'no' to fix and expand the pool that was in disrepair. Anything community based was either through the schools or churches - I could stand on my front porch and see 3 churches. If you weren't involved in those or weren't from there originally, good luck being sociable. Neighbors were gone to work out of town. The only reason I could stand it was that Amazon prime delivered and we had high speed Internet. I was not made to live in a town that small. 

 

the good things were when the economy was bad, everyone was suffering. Houses are in various stages of repair and the city only picks on the really bad ones. People just don't have the money to make necessary repairs as most of the houses are nearing 100 years old and in various stages. It didn't take long to do business. the post office and the city hall were nice and you could chat without it being too slow. My divorce lawyer was good and also at least 1/2 the price I would have paid in the big city.  :coolgleamA:

[Rosie_0801]

They tear down vacant malls etc. because they are depressing to the community, in both senses of the word.  Better to use the land for green space or an active project.

 

I don't understand why they are left to fall into disrepair in the first place. Isn't the local council supposed to use their brains to prevent that?

 

I'm interested in this because one of our nearby regional towns has been investigating why their mall is declining, and are choosing to fix it by undertaking measures that don't address the problems at all.

[LMD]

Yes native food is happening, there's a restaurant in Ballarat attached to a tourist attraction that does an indigenous themed menu.

 

I am trying to talk dh into growing some native aus superfoods to compete in the vein of Goji or Chia...

[Rosie_0801]

In the small town (pop 1200) we lived in, one restaurant eventually went out of business, which didn't surprise us at all... we ate there I think 1-2 times total in the 6 years we lived there, and would've more often, if only they would've accepted credit cards. I don't want to pay $30 for dinner in cash... I mean, it's not so much that I'm unwilling to, but if I look in my purse and see no physical money, then I'm going to drive 15 miles to town rather than eat there. 

 

Did they know they were losing business because they didn't take cards?

 

There was no ATM in the town either?

 

We have two bank branches, an outlet for one bank that shares a building with some other offices and an ATM for another bank.

[elegantlion]

I don't understand why they are left to fall into disrepair in the first place. Isn't the local council supposed to use their brains to prevent that?

 

I'm interested in this because one of our nearby regional towns has been investigating why their mall is declining, and are choosing to fix it by undertaking measures that don't address the problems at all.

 

Indoor malls have fallen out of favor. Most people like open air either strip malls or those that are set up like a little downtown. They recently tore down the very large mall where I spent a great deal of my teenage years. Tenants moved out as rents increased and shoppers waned and wandered to other venues. 

 

this is a destination shopping area in Kansas City. It's like visiting a small town as it takes up several blocks. I think part of the appeal is that you can park closer to the shop you want to visit. I often just go to the bookstore there, no getting distracted by other stores or having a walk a long distance. 

 

Some cities have sought alternatives to their empty malls, I think one was bought by a college for classes. In our area at least, retail is about the only thing fit to fill them and they've moved on. Other industries have different needs and the money is just not there to support them. 

[Rosie_0801]

The way I see it rural Australia has one major problem: venomous snakes. 😏

 

That's not just rural Australia. :D

[Rosie_0801]

Yes native food is happening, there's a restaurant in Ballarat attached to a tourist attraction that does an indigenous themed menu.

 

I am trying to talk dh into growing some native aus superfoods to compete in the vein of Goji or Chia...

 

I look forward to hearing about it!

 

 

Maybe I need to go to Ballarat.  :thumbup:

 

Really indigenous themed, or plunk down some bush tomato chutney that only has three percent bush tomato and a wattle seed shortbread and call it good?

[Rosie_0801]

Indoor malls have fallen out of favor. Most people like open air either strip malls or those that are set up like a little downtown. They recently tore down the very large mall where I spent a great deal of my teenage years. Tenants moved out as rents increased and shoppers waned and wandered to other venues. 

 

Why do the rents increase to the point of being unsustainable? What's in it for the owners?

 

When that happens here, it is negative gearing. It's owned as a tax deduction by someone who does not live locally.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm reminded of another anecdote. A small town about an hour away faced the closure of their petrol station, which would have been a huge blow to liveability. The town bought it, as a collective, and are using the profits to fund other projects and clubs. It's quite a happening little place now. I only wish our town could have swung something like that when one of ours came up for sale last year. Small town politics. Sometimes the "right" people need to have the idea.

[LMD]

I look forward to hearing about it!

 

 

Maybe I need to go to Ballarat. :thumbup:

 

Really indigenous themed, or plunk down some bush tomato chutney that only has three percent bush tomato and a wattle seed shortbread and call it good?

Lol, I think it's maybe a bit better than that... I can't remember!

http://made.org/visit/saltbush-kitchen/

Let me know if you go, we'll come too. The MADE museum is actually quite good.

[Carol in Cal.]

Do I need to read that book?

 

Yes, read that book.

 

Also, read "Janesville" but be ready to cry. 

 

 

 

[Rosie_0801]

Lol, I think it's maybe a bit better than that... I can't remember!

http://made.org/visit/saltbush-kitchen/

Let me know if you go, we'll come too. The MADE museum is actually quite good.

 

I need Strawberry Gum soda. I feel very sure of this.

 

Someone on one of my FB groups related an anecdote about strawberry gum yesterday. Her horse ate hers and burped strawberry gum scent all afternoon. :lol:

[Guest]

I don't understand why they are left to fall into disrepair in the first place. Isn't the local council supposed to use their brains to prevent that?

 

I'm interested in this because one of our nearby regional towns has been investigating why their mall is declining, and are choosing to fix it by undertaking measures that don't address the problems at all.

 

 

Even malls go through cycles.  I've seen two dead malls resurrected but it took a lot of work and some rebuilding, as well.  I've seen two torn down and recreated into a "town center" kind of thing--multifunction (apartments, stores, groceries, indoor/outdoor, hotels).  But one of those, the owners or the city, not sure which dug in their heels and didn't do a darned thing to rejuvenate (we don't need no stinkin' chain stores!--and malls aren't cool and people should shop downtown and support the local businesses) until the town 3 miles up the road took it on an built a beautiful new mall and got it just right and everyone started shopping there.  And guess what...that brought a LOT of tax revenue into that other town and then Town 1 started paying attention.  But the time lag between when they started to pay attention and when they had re-developed the dead mall was about 8 years...and people form new habits in that time.  

[Rosie_0801]

Even malls go through cycles.  I've seen two dead malls resurrected but it took a lot of work and some rebuilding, as well.  I've seen two torn down and recreated into a "town center" kind of thing--multifunction (apartments, stores, groceries, indoor/outdoor, hotels).  But one of those, the owners or the city, not sure which dug in their heels and didn't do a darned thing to rejuvenate (we don't need no stinkin' chain stores!--and malls aren't cool and people should shop downtown and support the local businesses) until the town 3 miles up the road took it on an built a beautiful new mall and got it just right and everyone started shopping there.  And guess what...that brought a LOT of tax revenue into that other town and then Town 1 started paying attention.  But the time lag between when they started to pay attention and when they had re-developed the dead mall was about 8 years...and people form new habits in that time.  

 

It's the disconnect between what people want and what they think they want, I guess.

[Ausmumof3]

I look forward to hearing about it!

 

 

Maybe I need to go to Ballarat. :thumbup:

 

Really indigenous themed, or plunk down some bush tomato chutney that only has three percent bush tomato and a wattle seed shortbread and call it good?

Yeah this is what is frustrating with trying bush foods. Mostly it's just a twist or something not an actual completely indigenous food.

[Rosie_0801]

Yeah this is what is frustrating with trying bush foods. Mostly it's just a twist or something not an actual completely indigenous food.

 

Perhaps that will change. While the industry is still emerging, it wouldn't be financially viable, I wouldn't think. Have you ever read 'https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Emu-Black-Agriculture-Accident/dp/1922142433/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1501556296&sr=8-1&keywords=dark+emuhttps://www.amazon.com/Dark-Emu-Black-Agriculture-Accident/dp/1922142433/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1501556296&sr=8-1&keywords=dark+emu?'  I donate to Bruce Pascoe's crowd funding ventures sometimes, so I hear updates. It's very cool.

[Guest]

It's the disconnect between what people want and what they think they want, I guess.

Yeah. I want a big yard with no maintenance, a large one-storey house with all the rooms close together so there are no long hallways with an open concept but lots of privacy, close to a great grocery store but with no traffic and very good roads, and no prpperty taxes.

[Rosie_0801]

Yeah. I want a big yard with no maintenance, a large one-storey house with all the rooms close together so there are no long hallways with an open concept but lots of privacy, close to a great grocery store but with no traffic and very good roads, and no prpperty taxes.

 

At least you've noticed that's an unreasonable ask. :lol:

[luuknam]

Did they know they were losing business because they didn't take cards?

 

There was no ATM in the town either?

 

 

One ATM was in the grocery store that burned down, iirc. I don't remember if there was another one. You'd think the restaurant owners might get a clue when you walk inside, look at the sign that says "cash only", and then walk right back out. I've heard a number of businesses claim that taking credit cards is too expensive (not that particular one, I don't think, but it's not an uncommon sentiment). Which, if that works for them, good for them, but most people I know are super annoyed with businesses who won't take credit or debit cards. It's like, I'm 33, what's this "cash" thing you're talking about? (n/m cheques... I think I've written 1 or 2 total in my entire life and I think I should have some *somewhere* but I haven't seen mine in *years*)

Edited August 1, 2017 by luuknam

[Rosie_0801]

One ATM was in the grocery store that burned down, iirc. I don't remember if there was another one. You'd think the restaurant owners might get a clue when you walk inside, look at the sign that says "cash only", and then walk right back out. I've heard a number of businesses claim that taking credit cards is too expensive (not that particular one, I don't think, but it's not an uncommon sentiment). Which, if that works for them, good for them, but most people I know are super annoyed with businesses who won't take credit or debit cards. It's like, I'm 33, what's this "cash" thing you're talking about? (n/m cheques... I think I've written 1 or 2 total in my entire life and I think I should have some *somewhere* but I haven't seen mine in *years*)

 

It's got to be cheaper than not being paid at all! 

 

I was looking at the small business department brochure for our state on how many different workshops are run, quite cheaply too, around the state on different facets of business. One friend did one on branding, another on selling through Facebook. Sounds like these people need a workshop in 'EFTPOS Machines for the Intimidated but Hopeful!'

[Bluegoat]

Indoor malls have fallen out of favor. Most people like open air either strip malls or those that are set up like a little downtown. They recently tore down the very large mall where I spent a great deal of my teenage years. Tenants moved out as rents increased and shoppers waned and wandered to other venues. 

 

this is a destination shopping area in Kansas City. It's like visiting a small town as it takes up several blocks. I think part of the appeal is that you can park closer to the shop you want to visit. I often just go to the bookstore there, no getting distracted by other stores or having a walk a long distance. 

 

Some cities have sought alternatives to their empty malls, I think one was bought by a college for classes. In our area at least, retail is about the only thing fit to fill them and they've moved on. Other industries have different needs and the money is just not there to support them. 

 

That's the prevailing wisdom, but I have doubts - I think it may turn out to be a fad.

 

The newest big box shopping area made a big deal of having an area like this for pedestrian shopping, promoted as being like a downtown.   Except, it's justnot - all chain stores and its clearly fake - you drive your car there and park in a giant mall lot, and the "street" itself is totally fake and goes nowhere. 

 

It kind of reminds me of the fake craft beer lables put out by big breweries.

 

Strip malls I think remain popular because they are a lot cheaper than an indoor mall.  I can't say I love indoor malls, but in our climate, with a long, cold, wet, snowy winter, they have a certain utility. 

[Bluegoat]

Why do the rents increase to the point of being unsustainable? What's in it for the owners?

 

When that happens here, it is negative gearing. It's owned as a tax deduction by someone who does not live locally.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm reminded of another anecdote. A small town about an hour away faced the closure of their petrol station, which would have been a huge blow to liveability. The town bought it, as a collective, and are using the profits to fund other projects and clubs. It's quite a happening little place now. I only wish our town could have swung something like that when one of ours came up for sale last year. Small town politics. Sometimes the "right" people need to have the idea.

 

I think sometimes it is just about general economic health of the community.

 

Indoor malls are expensive because of all that extra space - halls, toilets, escalators, and so on.  It's square footage that has to be maintained, heated, cleaned - and you don't have that in the average strip mall.  I suspect the fake main streets are also cheaper.

 

So, only stores that make a certain amount of money can locate in an indoor mall.  Then, when the community has an economic downturn, suddenly the rents are unsustainable.

[Rosie_0801]

I think sometimes it is just about general economic health of the community.

 

Indoor malls are expensive because of all that extra space - halls, toilets, escalators, and so on.  It's square footage that has to be maintained, heated, cleaned - and you don't have that in the average strip mall.  I suspect the fake main streets are also cheaper.

 

So, only stores that make a certain amount of money can locate in an indoor mall.  Then, when the community has an economic downturn, suddenly the rents are unsustainable.

 

Who owns the mall? Some sort of property development corporation? 

[Bluegoat]

Who owns the mall? Some sort of property development corporation? 

 

I think that's true of most of the malls here.

 

Interestingly, there is one indoor mall in my area that is owned by an individual.  It has a totally different profile of shops and services, including a destination food boutique.  The owner seems to really think outside the box in terms of building up what is in the mall.

 

His mall seems to be doing better than the others, go figure.

[Rosie_0801]

I think that's true of most of the malls here.

 

Interestingly, there is one indoor mall in my area that is owned by an individual.  It has a totally different profile of shops and services, including a destination food boutique.  The owner seems to really think outside the box in terms of building up what is in the mall.

 

His mall seems to be doing better than the others, go figure.

 

You don't say? :svengo:

[Guest]

 

I'm interested in this because one of our nearby regional towns has been investigating why their mall is declining, and are choosing to fix it by undertaking measures that don't address the problems at all.

According to my mall manager friend, the mix of businesses in the mall is the secret. The mall needs to attract customers, not people using it for meetups, exercise, or crime. And the businesses need to be more than cash extraction machines.

 

The big mall in my area is failing. People go to the next big mall up the road in every direction. I avoid this one for two reasons...most of the people there are not shopping, dining, or heading for the movies, and the stores arent stocking what I am interested in. The third reason is the customer service at the stores is universally bad...they can't seem to train their employees. So I travel 30, 70 or 90 miles to the next mall (depending on which direction) instead of 20, but I can find clothing that works,goods that are in stock, and helpful employees and not return emptyhanded.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Heigh Ho

[SamanthaCarter]

Rosie, just to throw something out there that might or might not have been mentioned yet. It's my understanding that the interior of your country is virtually uninhabitable, and so the vast majority of the population lives around the edges. I imagine that's a big barrier to development. What do you think?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Rosie_0801]

Rosie, just to throw something out there that might or might not have been mentioned yet. It's my understanding that the interior of your country is virtually uninhabitable, and so the vast majority of the population lives around the edges. I imagine that's a big barrier to development. What do you think?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Remote Australia certainly has its challenges, but they have no bearing on developing around the edges any more, as far as I know.

[elegantlion]

That's the prevailing wisdom, but I have doubts - I think it may turn out to be a fad.

 

The newest big box shopping area made a big deal of having an area like this for pedestrian shopping, promoted as being like a downtown.   Except, it's justnot - all chain stores and its clearly fake - you drive your car there and park in a giant mall lot, and the "street" itself is totally fake and goes nowhere. 

 

It kind of reminds me of the fake craft beer lables put out by big breweries.

 

Strip malls I think remain popular because they are a lot cheaper than an indoor mall.  I can't say I love indoor malls, but in our climate, with a long, cold, wet, snowy winter, they have a certain utility. 

 

I have no doubt it's fadish, more cyclical probably. I remember when the outdoor mall, set up like a mall without a roof, became enclosed in the 1970s and everyone thought that was cutting edge. It's been torn down and rebuilt as an upscale strip mall. 

 

These trends are conversations happening in our town right now. We have a genuine historical downtown (lot of buildings from mid 1800s to 1900) that is attempting a comeback. Up to the mid 1970s, you could shop downtown for everything instead of the new mall. But shoppers wanted the mall, which is still doing well in our town. Then in early 2000s they built a big destination strip mall with stores like Target and Old Navy and Bed, Bath, and Beyond. It's in the newer part of the town and draws from the entire region.

 

It's interesting because now the young adults are wanting to spend more time downtown. We have a mix of restaurants and bars (themed, niche bars) and slowly other type of businesses are coming in. There is a real push to get the economy going downtown, not just because it's a historical downtown, but because it's a cycle of consumerism. Parking is a huge issue, there just isn't enough to sustain a large group of people down there all the time. That is also being addressed because people are used to parking right close to shops they want. 

[elegantlion]

I think that's true of most of the malls here.

 

Interestingly, there is one indoor mall in my area that is owned by an individual.  It has a totally different profile of shops and services, including a destination food boutique.  The owner seems to really think outside the box in terms of building up what is in the mall.

 

His mall seems to be doing better than the others, go figure.

 

The mall where I grew up* was originally owned by an individual. He would walk around and greet people, he was great. Once he passed away, no one took up the reins and that is when some of the dissatisfaction started happening. 

 

 

 

Random stuff before coffee: *this implies I grew up in the mall, which might not be inaccurate as I spend most of my youth roaming that mall. 

[shawthorne44]

I think that's true of most of the malls here.

 

Interestingly, there is one indoor mall in my area that is owned by an individual.  It has a totally different profile of shops and services, including a destination food boutique.  The owner seems to really think outside the box in terms of building up what is in the mall.

 

His mall seems to be doing better than the others, go figure.

 

The opposite had been something that annoyed me about the Mall of America.   You would think with all that space, there would be some interesting stores.   But, nooooo, there were FOUR Victoria's Secrets.  

[Bluegoat]

I have no doubt it's fadish, more cyclical probably. I remember when the outdoor mall, set up like a mall without a roof, became enclosed in the 1970s and everyone thought that was cutting edge. It's been torn down and rebuilt as an upscale strip mall. 

 

These trends are conversations happening in our town right now. We have a genuine historical downtown (lot of buildings from mid 1800s to 1900) that is attempting a comeback. Up to the mid 1970s, you could shop downtown for everything instead of the new mall. But shoppers wanted the mall, which is still doing well in our town. Then in early 2000s they built a big destination strip mall with stores like Target and Old Navy and Bed, Bath, and Beyond. It's in the newer part of the town and draws from the entire region.

 

It's interesting because now the young adults are wanting to spend more time downtown. We have a mix of restaurants and bars (themed, niche bars) and slowly other type of businesses are coming in. There is a real push to get the economy going downtown, not just because it's a historical downtown, but because it's a cycle of consumerism. Parking is a huge issue, there just isn't enough to sustain a large group of people down there all the time. That is also being addressed because people are used to parking right close to shops they want. 

 

Yeah, millennials and Gen X types generally seem to want to live and spend time in more downtown areas. 

 

It's interesting to me because I remember when people said malls were destroying the downtowns.  It seemed plausible to me at the time.  Now I wonder if it wasn't more the loss of residents in the more urban areas, to the suburbs. Here urban communities are all revitalizing as people move into them and want to manage without cars as much as possible. (Which brings its own issues, too.)

 

My thought is that when you had all of these people moving to suburbs that were car based, it makes sense that their shopping moved to car-based malls.  And big box stores are similarly based on car access, though the business model is a little different.

[SKL]

I don't understand why they are left to fall into disrepair in the first place. Isn't the local council supposed to use their brains to prevent that?

 

I'm interested in this because one of our nearby regional towns has been investigating why their mall is declining, and are choosing to fix it by undertaking measures that don't address the problems at all.

 

Demographics changing, people buying more online, a nicer shopping place springing up down the street, not enough business to motivate good upkeep, which is a big turn-off.  Possibly teen gang activity or other problematic behaviors.

 

In recent years, someone got the "bright" idea to change the way shopping areas are laid out, making people walk outside from store to store instead of inside.  They build it up like a village within a city.  Sounds like a cute idea, but where I live, you don't want to be outside most of the time - it's either too cold, snowy, rainy, or hot.  Christmas shopping in the sludge - yippee!  However, people are excited to check out a new shopping experience, so sales at the old malls go down.

 

The mall closest to me is pretty old - I remember my mom taking me there when I was a little girl.  It's still a mall, but they've torn down some parts of it and built free-standing stores there instead.  Whatever.  But that mall is in a city where demographics continue to support it, for now.

 

Cities may have an interest in keeping malls nice, but malls are generally private property owned by big real estate companies.  Cities can offer incentives to keep stores at a failing mall, but maybe sometimes it's better to let a dying thing die.  I know the one mall that's been closed used to be fun to shop at 25 years ago.  I was there about 5 years ago and it was pretty horrible.  I would never go back.  I see no point in tax dollars going to save that mall, unless there was no other place to get food / necessities.

[Kalmia]

Here are some other examples of mill town revival in the New England Region of the US. All the mill jobs were shipped overseas leaving thousands without work, but who were connected to the towns through family ties etc. and wanted to stay. Over time many had to move away. You may not have closed mills, but the results of job centers being too far away is the same.

 

Revitalization of New Hampshire Mill Town Takes Unusual Ideas

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/02/15/revitalization-new-hampshire-mill-town-takes-unusual-ideas/0Lr1R06HtlBdJygq8TExqK/story.html

 

Mill Revitalization Districts

http://www.mass.gov/envir/smart_growth_toolkit/pages/mod-mill-redev.html

 

An Impressive Revitalization is Underway in Waterville (Well, this one is not quite so impressive as Waterville has a hospital and a college)

http://www.wcsh6.com/news/local/207/an-impressive-revitalization-effort-is-underway-in-waterville/382180098

 

 

[Rosie_0801]

Very interesting. Thanks Kalmia!

[Carrie12345]

I keep thinking about this thread, and humans (including myself) are just obnoxious.

 

I mean, the mall in my area has been dying forever.  We have an outlet mall right down the road, so duh!  Outlet mall brings in people from a wide radius.  We hate the traffic the outlet mall brings in!

(They've also gone on to add stores like Kohl's, Old Navy, etc. to that main road over the past decade, which obviously doesn't help the mall.)

 

At high risk of giving away my location, we have a professional race track.  It brings in HUGE crowds several times a year for races, and smaller crowds for some other random events.  We hate the traffic that brings in, too!

 

But there's no denying that the traffic that's brought in is obnoxious.  Our roads aren't built for it, and we're used to being able to go about our relatively laid back lives.  When I got stuck waiting FOUR cycles to get through a traffic light one busy weekend, I think my daughter was afraid I might get out of the car and hurt someone. (<---- Jersey roots showing.)  Slow is good.  Jammed is bad!

[Rosie_0801]

I keep thinking about this thread, and humans (including myself) are just obnoxious.

 

I mean, the mall in my area has been dying forever.  We have an outlet mall right down the road, so duh!  Outlet mall brings in people from a wide radius.  We hate the traffic the outlet mall brings in!

(They've also gone on to add stores like Kohl's, Old Navy, etc. to that main road over the past decade, which obviously doesn't help the mall.)

 

At high risk of giving away my location, we have a professional race track.  It brings in HUGE crowds several times a year for races, and smaller crowds for some other random events.  We hate the traffic that brings in, too!

 

But there's no denying that the traffic that's brought in is obnoxious.  Our roads aren't built for it, and we're used to being able to go about our relatively laid back lives.  When I got stuck waiting FOUR cycles to get through a traffic light one busy weekend, I think my daughter was afraid I might get out of the car and hurt someone. (

 

What should be done about it?

[Carrie12345]

What should be done about it?

 

I honestly don't know that anything *should be done about it.  

 

Not enough people want a mall anymore. Trying to shove it down people's throats doesn't sound like a great idea.  (Says a former mall rat.)

 

Investing in road improvements near the outlet mall might be reasonable, because that's a consistent weekend and summer weekday issue.  There's been talk about widening the roads near the race track, but that isn't really reasonable in most people's opinions.  We'd have more congestion from the road work than we'd have in probably a *decade* of events.  I think it's just one of those things you learn to live with, and cope by venting!

 

If I suddenly became the queen of my specific township, I don't think I'd change much right here.  I'd make sure the marijuana farm that's trying to get built would go through.  I'd improve our park, have more community events, and maybe see about getting our own small police force (mainly to help with insane drivers) and ambulance service.  I might talk to our local farmers to see if a local farm stand/market was a possibility.  I'd like to see about making sure people with unreliable transportation have access to delivery services and/or rides. I know we could use a local food bank, but that need could go down a bit if the pot farm happens, because they're offering $15/hr jobs.

 

Fixing the real estate market and health care costs would be very beneficial to our area, but I don't think the queen of a measly little township can tackle that.

 

Otherwise, I want to be left to complain about minor inconveniences and enjoy the benefits of living "in the middle of nowhere". If this suddenly becomes "somewhere", I'm not sure where will be left for me to go!

[Rosie_0801]

If I suddenly became the queen of my specific township, I don't think I'd change much right here.  I'd make sure the marijuana farm that's trying to get built would go through.  I'd improve our park, have more community events, and maybe see about getting our own small police force (mainly to help with insane drivers) and ambulance service.  I might talk to our local farmers to see if a local farm stand/market was a possibility.  I'd like to see about making sure people with unreliable transportation have access to delivery services and/or rides. I know we could use a local food bank, but that need could go down a bit if the pot farm happens, because they're offering $15/hr jobs.

 

Fixing the real estate market and health care costs would be very beneficial to our area, but I don't think the queen of a measly little township can tackle that.

 

Otherwise, I want to be left to complain about minor inconveniences and enjoy the benefits of living "in the middle of nowhere". If this suddenly becomes "somewhere", I'm not sure where will be left for me to go!

 

Ever thought about running for local government? :D