How do I talk to my DH about household/life work

[mamaraby]

Isn't "mental work" a bit of an exaggeration for what we are discussing here?

 

One person has a clear idea what she thinks should happen. She wants the the other person to do it just so. So she needs to communicate that she wants it just so. Otherwise, the other person may interpret the task his way (as we have seen in previous posts, peeople interpret the same task to involve vastly different sets of sub-tasks) and it may not occur to him to check whether this is exactly the way the first person meant the task to be completed.

Which is why it is so much more efficient for people to be in charge of complete tasks, and not switch mid-stream, unless that is a clear established routine.

Why are we discounting the mental load that goes along with all the tasks associated with both the children and the house? As if that's nbd and hardly any work at all? If we were just talking about this one instance in an isolated one-off fashion, then sure, no big deal. But it's not just this one thing, is it? The OP is talking about more than just getting the kids ready to go to camp. She's talking about a pattern of things and then, yeah, once you add all that up, it is a mental load and that is just another thing for her to carry.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Speaking directly to the backpack for camp issue, I can totally see why that needs more support. Without having been the one to read all the paperwork, receive the emails from camp, download the packing lists, etc., if my DH were to try to pack the backpacks and get them ready for the day, he'd be lost. He would have no idea which days they needed their meal kits, which days they needed two swimsuits and two towels, whether they needed water shoes or not, that they were required to have a bandana or headband with them every day, that they have to bring sunscreen as well as wear it in, that it couldn't be the aerosol kind, etc. And without having seen me get them ready for camp every morning for weeks, I don't know that it would occur to him to sunscreen or bug spray them, because he doesn't wear sunscreen himself (he's dark-skinned, that's a whole other post), and we don't generally spend time in places where we need bug spray.

 

So if he were to do a one-off day of getting them ready, I could virtually guarantee that half the stuff that needed to happen wouldn't happen. I don't see how that's related to gender roles--it's related to him not ever having been privy to all the paperwork, rules, and requirements for getting ready for a camp day. Some stuff that may seem obvious to some people isn't that obvious to others. There were days when I myself forgot to sunscreen the kids before sending them off!

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Why are we discounting the mental load that goes along with all the tasks associated with both the children and the house? As if that's nbd and hardly any work at all? If we were just talking about this one instance in an isolated one-off fashion, then sure, no big deal. But it's not just this one thing, is it? The OP is talking about more than just getting the kids ready to go to camp. She's talking about a pattern of things and then, yeah, once you add all that up, it is a mental load and that is just another thing for her to carry.

 

I completely agree with you. Except that change doesn't magically happen overnight just because we wish it would, especially when the pattern has long since been established. It takes work and struggle. And no, DH probably isn't going to want to take on more "work," so there's going to be that reluctance as well. No one here is arguing that it shouldn't happen. But it's going to be like turning a cruise ship around!

[regentrude]

nm. Not worth it. 

 

Edited June 28, 2017 by regentrude

[Bluegoat]

See, I don't know.  I do agree with Sadie.  I often feel like for some reason the mental work falls on me.  In our situation I do a lot of these things because I don't get paid for what I do and it is easier for me to do most of these things because I've got more time to do them.  I don't mind per se and think our arrangement is mostly fair, but when I did work full time I did feel like too many things fell to me, but biggest thing of all was the mental work.  There were no indications and still no indications that my DH thinks about the details of day to day life.  He gets up and goes to work.  That's about it.  That isn't nothing and I appreciate what he does do for us, but working would have been a hell of a lot easier for me without having to focus on so many things which is a big part of why I chose not to continue working.  I do better with low stress and I wanted my kids to have a good upbringing without a psychotically stressed and angry mother. 

 

Now, what I'm not 100% sure of is if this is in my head only or if I have somehow done something that has resulted in my spouse taking me a bit for granted...or if he does think all this stuff is my job.  Really I don't know, but I do occasionally feel resentful of this.  The tasks themselves aren't difficult.  The mental part is difficult for me. 

 

But then at the end of the day it's easier to just say specifically what I want rather than fight to make the situation different.  I want XYZ taken care of and not necessarily turn everything into the additional challenge of seeing to it that I feel like things are fair. 

 

Sure, one person can end up with all the mental work.

 

As long as the partner isn't a jerk, you can transfer that.  But you often do have to say - I am giving you this whole job.  Not just cooking, but meal planning and groceries.

 

What I see tends to go wrong with this at times is that the first person tries to maintain control in some way.  Maybe by laying out how the task is done, or when.  Or being impatient while the other person becomes efficient. 

 

And sometimes the problem is that one person cares more than the other about certain things.  It's hard to do a significant task the way another person wants when you really don't think its needed.   Probably the one mental load problem I've seen that seems to be typically differnt between males and females relates to social calander - being the person who holds together the network of family/social relations, kids activities, and so on.  It seems like 99% of the time, moms want a lot more from this than dads do, or perhaps they feel greater pressures to have things a certain way.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

It's true that a lot of the "mental stuff" falls on me...but that's because I am home.  Today, DH left the house at 7am.  He has a meeting scheduled to start at 8pm.  He's not here today, like at all.  Thankfully, today, there's not much going on, but like on Monday, there was therapy, there was ball games, that meant getting dinner together by X time, which meant a crock pot meal, which meant it had to prepped earlier in the day, etc etc.  DH doesn't really take the time to think about that kind of stuff because he's generally not here for that stuff.

 

Next week though, he will be off all week.  I know that next week is tourney week for the ball games, but until I told him, he didn't know, because he didn't get the text, because I was the one who signed the girls up, because he wasn't home to do it.  Therefore, even though he is off all week, I will STILL be coordinating all/most of the scheduling/logistics/mental stuff, because he doesn't receive all the info. 

 

I mentioned earlier in the thread about when he got laid off.  I worked some 50 to 60 hours a week, most of it overnight, for like 4 months.  DH was left in charge of things like getting the girls to preschool and back, getting meals for them, arranging his interviews around my work schedule, and basically all that "mental stuff."  And, he handled it.  Because he was home, and I was not.  (or, I was, but I was sleeping lol. )  He was getting the information from school about when the Christmas party was and he was the one my mom would call if she wanted to see if the girls could spend the night, etc etc.  It fell on him because he was the one with the availability to do it, I was not.  And now, I am the one with the availability, so I handle it.

 

In the OP's case, both she and her spouse have equal availability to handle the stuff, but she's silently taking parts of it on without giving her spouse all the information.  They aren't discussing what all needs to be done and who can do it, instead, she's is taking in the information, not giving him all of it and then making the decision on what he can do, without actually getting input from him. 

 

I agree with this. I also think there may be some perfectionism going as well, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but it's how some of us get ourselves overwhelmed. DH offered to take some things off my plate the other day, and I couldn't think of a single thing I'd feel comfortable shifting over to him. He offered to start calling and making doctor's appointments for a couple of different issues with the kids, but because I already know all the ins and outs, I know what I'm looking for in a doctor, for an appointment schedule, the kinds of questions I want to ask and the kind I'll think up on the fly, etc., I don't want to hand that job over to him. He has offered to take over the household bills, but I already know the due dates of everything, how money can be shifted around if we have a tough month, which bills get paid at the site and which through the bank, how I use the spreadsheets to project the next few months' finances, etc., I've just kept the job because it's easier to keep doing it myself than to teach him and then worry that we'll run out of money at some point because he didn't use the spreadsheets. 

 

I do agree that we need to find ways hand off responsibilities to our partners, but sometimes it's easier said than done, especially for us type-A folks. And some things do need to be done a certain way, so we'll still have to do some mental work when handing them off to make sure the transition goes smoothly. 

[lauraw4321]

Speaking directly to the backpack for camp issue, I can totally see why that needs more support. Without having been the one to read all the paperwork, receive the emails from camp, download the packing lists, etc., if my DH were to try to pack the backpacks and get them ready for the day, he'd be lost. He would have no idea which days they needed their meal kits, which days they needed two swimsuits and two towels, whether they needed water shoes or not, that they were required to have a bandana or headband with them every day, that they have to bring sunscreen as well as wear it in, that it couldn't be the aerosol kind, etc. And without having seen me get them ready for camp every morning for weeks, I don't know that it would occur to him to sunscreen or bug spray them, because he doesn't wear sunscreen himself (he's dark-skinned, that's a whole other post), and we don't generally spend time in places where we need bug spray.

 

So if he were to do a one-off day of getting them ready, I could virtually guarantee that half the stuff that needed to happen wouldn't happen. I don't see how that's related to gender roles--it's related to him not ever having been privy to all the paperwork, rules, and requirements for getting ready for a camp day. Some stuff that may seem obvious to some people isn't that obvious to others. There were days when I myself forgot to sunscreen the kids before sending them off!

 

I did not ask him or expect him to do anything with the backpacks. So I did not communicate about the backpack. I did all of that myself. 

 

The first day of camp, he and I discussed (at length) the need for bug spray and sunscreen. We discussed which types (family/deet/deep woods; spray/rub/face, etc.) He had lots of questions (understandably) and I answered them. Then he applied them.  HE APPLIED THEM.

 

Then the second day, when I wasn't there to tell him to apply them (because I went for a run because I lose my mind if I don't), he didn't. Because he didn't think about it. Because he NEVER thinks about this stuff. Because the thinking and remembering is all my job.  Nor did he have them put on shoes and socks. Which I think we can ALL agree requires NO SCAFFOLDING. Because...? Because me saying "get the girls ready for camp" is insufficient directions??? He knew my time would be limited because I was out for a run. If I KNOW someone's time is limited, then I'm going to do ALL THE THINGS that I KNOW about to accomplish the task given me. But he won't. BECAUSE HE DOESN'T THINK ABOUT IT. Because he has ADD or because he's a man or for whatever reason. That process of... hmmm.. this person has to leave with the kids in X minutes, and they asked me to get the kids ready, so what all does that entail to make sure they aren't pressed for time.  That thought process?  Does.Not.Happen. 

 

During the school year, when I go for a run, I have to CALL HIM to WAKE HIM UP to start getting the kids ready. Because he won't remember to set an alarm. And when I call him, I have to tell him - kids need to be dressed, with shoes, and fed by the time I get home. I have to do this EACH TIME. It is exhausting. I also have to remind him to take his computer, his cell phone, his wallet and his badge to work. I have to check my wallet and make sure that he hasn't taken all of my forms of payment (because he loses his wallet so frequently that is a very common occurrence) before I leave for work. If he's driving the kids to school, I have to tell him to go take a shower, to get in the car, to GO GO GO or they will be late. 

 

I frequently have to call him to remind him to come home from work. Because he doesn't notice that it's 5:45 or 6:00. I have to remind him to sign his time card for work. Because he's gotten so far behind on that before that he's had to take multi-hour training courses on the weekend which takes away from family time. 

 

I'm considering this an ADD issue. So I've purchased several books about that (recommended here and others) and I'm going to start there for advice. I also mentioned that I think we may need counseling last night. He said "ok."

Edited June 28, 2017 by lauraw4321

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Sure, one person can end up with all the mental work.

 

As long as the partner isn't a jerk, you can transfer that.  But you often do have to say - I am giving you this whole job.  Not just cooking, but meal planning and groceries.

 

What I see tends to go wrong with this at times is that the first person tries to maintain control in some way.  Maybe by laying out how the task is done, or when.  Or being impatient while the other person becomes efficient. 

 

And sometimes the problem is that one person cares more than the other about certain things.  It's hard to do a significant task the way another person wants when you really don't think its needed.   Probably the one mental load problem I've seen that seems to be typically differnt between males and females relates to social calander - being the person who holds together the network of family/social relations, kids activities, and so on.  It seems like 99% of the time, moms want a lot more from this than dads do, or perhaps they feel greater pressures to have things a certain way.

 

All great points. I just want to say about the bolded, I suspect that, especially here on this forum, this is the case because many of us feel it is OUR area of responsibility. Whereas my DH feels great pressure to have things a certain way in his area of responsibility, which are his job, the yard, the cars, etc. I would not take the cars for oil changes as often as he does. I wouldn't get my car washed/detailed as often as he does. I often wish that he could leave work when he's supposed to, but he often stays late doing things that he feels set him up for success the next day or doing things that the company requires (paperwork etc.) that other people seem to let slide more because it makes him look more conscientious on the job. When he frets over house things, I'm usually the one saying, "Eh, the neighbors can deal, you'll get to it next week."

 

So I think that statement applies to whatever our major area of responsibility tends to be.

[Bluegoat]

Because getting children ready so they can go to summer camp and spend time outside requires a specialist level of knowledge that is unknowable for the children's father? Like the father can't possibly be expected to know this specialist knowledge and needs his wife to treat him like a child and give him step by step directions?

 

Sorry, no. This is where we excuse his laziness and play into the bumbling, doofus father trope. Dad's aren't incapable of handling it, some just choose not to. It also isn't just the op being unwilling to let him do it his way, either. This is a guy who didn't take the initiative to participate in the care of the house and family when circumstances changed. She used to do it all for him in the past? Fine, but it's not the past and things changed so adults can too.

 

My dh works, I'm a SAHM, but he still remains capable of handling getting our kids ready for anything and feeding people and cleaning the house and parenting. Cuz he's an adult and fathers aren't idiots. It drives him nuts when people refer to him taking his fair share of the parenting and calling it babysitting because he's not a babysitter. I am not solely responsible for the care of our children.

 

OP, not sure how you address it other than I would not enable him by providing step by step instructions or otherwise scaffolding him like he's one of your children. He's an adult and needs to exercise his adult level skills around the house. I imagine his employer doesn't scaffold him and hold his hand. I imagine he's responsible enough to do his responsibilities there or he wouldn't have his job.

 

Maybe you can frame this discussion that way? Maybe you can begin from, "We're all adults and the situation needs to change." You are partners in this after all, and I assume everything else is healthy and otherwise fine. In that case, you can offer support if he wants to find some classes or hire a life coach or get help for improving executive function issues. What I wouldn't do is continue to infantalize my adult husband and treat him as if he needs to be taught like a child. We women learned by doing, he can too.

 

I do want to thank the OP for the thread and another poster for the link to the comic. It prompted an interesting discussion at our house with my ds. It also provided an opportunity to discuss growth areas. No, the washing machine should not be stuffed full and why do I have to be the only one to think about this? Use your brains, house males! Logic dictates the soap and water need space too. It's not like the washing machine cleans clothes by magic.

 

And I'm doubling down on life skills for all my children including stopping them and pointing out "Hey, what else do you notice or think logically should be included in this task?" I will teach my children because they're kids. I will not teach my husband unless we're talking the sort that one does when a friend asks them to share their knowledge because he's an adult and he can handle it.

 

How do you expect the dad to know what needs to be done if he hasn't been given the information about what is required to go to camp?  If the mom has been doing that job, she may well have all that information in her head, whereas he doesn't.  That includes the stuff the kids happened to mention on the way home yesterday.  It really isn't totally obvious whether they need a lunch and a snack, or one of those or none, or if they will require bug spray. 

 

I can ask my dh to make dinner, and he will, but since he isn't the one who manages the food, I need to tell him if there are things that he shouldn't use, or perhaps there is something that should be cooked tonight.

 

This is why in many jobs with shift handovers, you have a handover brief of some kind, even if the job is pretty mundane and the individuals are interchangeable workers. 

 

I think it would really be profoundly disrespectful of my husband to assume he thinks whatever seems "logical" to me will be obvious to him.  I know the opposite very often isn't true.

[lauraw4321]

How do you expect the dad to know what needs to be done if he hasn't been given the information about what is required to go to camp?  If the mom has been doing that job, she may well have all that information in her head, whereas he doesn't.  That includes the stuff the kids happened to mention on the way home yesterday.  It really isn't totally obvious whether they need a lunch and a snack, or one of those or none, or if they will require bug spray. 

 

I can ask my dh to make dinner, and he will, but since he isn't the one who manages the food, I need to tell him if there are things that he shouldn't use, or perhaps there is something that should be cooked tonight.

 

This is why in many jobs with shift handovers, you have a handover brief of some kind, even if the job is pretty mundane and the individuals are interchangeable workers. 

 

I think it would really be profoundly disrespectful of my husband to assume he thinks whatever seems "logical" to me will be obvious to him.  I know the opposite very often isn't true.

Please see my post a few above to explain WHY he should have known. He WAS given the information on Monday. 

[regentrude]

During the school year, when I go for a run, I have to CALL HIM to WAKE HIM UP to start getting the kids ready. Because he won't remember to set an alarm. And when I call him, I have to tell him - kids need to be dressed, with shoes, and fed by the time I get home. I have to do this EACH TIME. It is exhausting. I also have to remind him to take his computer, his cell phone, his wallet and his badge to work. I have to check my wallet and make sure that he hasn't taken all of my forms of payment (because he loses his wallet so frequently that is a very common occurrence) before I leave for work. If he's driving the kids to school, I have to tell him to go take a shower, to get in the car, to GO GO GO or they will be late. 

 

I frequently have to call him to remind him to come home from work. Because he doesn't notice that it's 5:45 or 6:00. I have to remind him to sign his time card for work. Because he's gotten so far behind on that before that he's had to take multi-hour training courses on the weekend which takes away from family time. 

 

I'm considering this an ADD issue. So I've purchased several books about that (recommended here and others) and I'm going to start there for advice. I also mentioned that I think we may need counseling last night. He said "ok."

 

This paints a very different picture from your OP. It completely sounds like an ADD issue and not a mere "how do we talk about household work" issue. You describe a person who is not neurotypical, who is incapable of functioning at the level typical for adults, and who has been conditioned to function only through the help of your extensive scaffolding in the simplest daily tasks.

 

So any advice given for communcating and dividing labor with a neurotypical spouse probably won't apply to your situation at all. I hope you can find strategies to work this out, and perhaps get the help of a specialist. 

[Bluegoat]

All great points. I just want to say about the bolded, I suspect that, especially here on this forum, this is the case because many of us feel it is OUR area of responsibility. Whereas my DH feels great pressure to have things a certain way in his area of responsibility, which are his job, the yard, the cars, etc. I would not take the cars for oil changes as often as he does. I wouldn't get my car washed/detailed as often as he does. I often wish that he could leave work when he's supposed to, but he often stays late doing things that he feels set him up for success the next day or doing things that the company requires (paperwork etc.) that other people seem to let slide more because it makes him look more conscientious on the job. When he frets over house things, I'm usually the one saying, "Eh, the neighbors can deal, you'll get to it next week."

 

So I think that statement applies to whatever our major area of responsibility tends to be.

 

Oh, yes, I think you are right.  People often end up with the jobs they care about more.

 

With the social thing - this has been my observation even of dads that stay home with kids or are single parents.  They just don't seem to care so much about things like signing kids up for activities, or making sure the kids get to see grandpa every week.  I've known a few where a working wife kept arranging the social calendar for a dad who does everything else.

[lllll]

I did not ask him or expect him to do anything with the backpacks. So I did not communicate about the backpack. I did all of that myself. 

 

The first day of camp, he and I discussed (at length) the need for bug spray and sunscreen. We discussed which types (family/deet/deep woods; spray/rub/face, etc.) He had lots of questions (understandably) and I answered them. Then he applied them.  HE APPLIED THEM.

 

Then the second day, when I wasn't there to tell him to apply them (because I went for a run because I lose my mind if I don't), he didn't. Because he didn't think about it. Because he NEVER thinks about this stuff. Because the thinking and remembering is all my job.  Nor did he have them put on shoes and socks. Which I think we can ALL agree requires NO SCAFFOLDING. Because...? Because me saying "get the girls ready for camp" is insufficient directions??? He knew my time would be limited because I was out for a run. If I KNOW someone's time is limited, then I'm going to do ALL THE THINGS that I KNOW about to accomplish the task given me. But he won't. BECAUSE HE DOESN'T THINK ABOUT IT. Because he has ADD or because he's a man or for whatever reason. That process of... hmmm.. this person has to leave with the kids in X minutes, and they asked me to get the kids ready, so what all does that entail to make sure they aren't pressed for time.  That thought process?  Does.Not.Happen. 

 

During the school year, when I go for a run, I have to CALL HIM to WAKE HIM UP to start getting the kids ready. Because he won't remember to set an alarm. And when I call him, I have to tell him - kids need to be dressed, with shoes, and fed by the time I get home. I have to do this EACH TIME. It is exhausting. I also have to remind him to take his computer, his cell phone, his wallet and his badge to work. I have to check my wallet and make sure that he hasn't taken all of my forms of payment (because he loses his wallet so frequently that is a very common occurrence) before I leave for work. If he's driving the kids to school, I have to tell him to go take a shower, to get in the car, to GO GO GO or they will be late. 

 

I frequently have to call him to remind him to come home from work. Because he doesn't notice that it's 5:45 or 6:00. I have to remind him to sign his time card for work. Because he's gotten so far behind on that before that he's had to take multi-hour training courses on the weekend which takes away from family time. 

 

I'm considering this an ADD issue. So I've purchased several books about that (recommended here and others) and I'm going to start there for advice. I also mentioned that I think we may need counseling last night. He said "ok."

 

The above sounds like something else is going on besides your dh just not cooperating.  I think I'd be doing what you're doing - reading about ADD or whatever else, finding a counselor, etc.  At any rate, probably useless to stay angry about it until the two of you figure out what's really happening here.  Until then, I'd be tempted just to do most of it myself to avoid the mental anguish of dealing with the dh.

 

Fwiw, I actually preferred doing most of the stuff myself instead of involving my dh.  And once my kids were old enough, I taught them to do almost all of it as part of training them to run a house on their own as adults.  My dh's standards were very low as far as cleanliness and time and everything else, and I loathed having to remind/nag/tell ... him anything, because .... well, I'm not his mother and it always made me feel like he was just another one of the kids when I did that.  Yuck.  (But I wasn't working outside the home either.)

 

:grouphug:

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I did not ask him or expect him to do anything with the backpacks. So I did not communicate about the backpack. I did all of that myself. 

 

The first day of camp, he and I discussed (at length) the need for bug spray and sunscreen. We discussed which types (family/deet/deep woods; spray/rub/face, etc.) He had lots of questions (understandably) and I answered them. Then he applied them.  HE APPLIED THEM.

 

Then the second day, when I wasn't there to tell him to apply them (because I went for a run because I lose my mind if I don't), he didn't. Because he didn't think about it. Because he NEVER thinks about this stuff. Because the thinking and remembering is all my job.  Nor did he have them put on shoes and socks. Which I think we can ALL agree requires NO SCAFFOLDING. Because...? Because me saying "get the girls ready for camp" is insufficient directions??? He knew my time would be limited because I was out for a run. If I KNOW someone's time is limited, then I'm going to do ALL THE THINGS that I KNOW about to accomplish the task given me. But he won't. BECAUSE HE DOESN'T THINK ABOUT IT. Because he has ADD or because he's a man or for whatever reason. That process of... hmmm.. this person has to leave with the kids in X minutes, and they asked me to get the kids ready, so what all does that entail to make sure they aren't pressed for time.  That thought process?  Does.Not.Happen. 

 

During the school year, when I go for a run, I have to CALL HIM to WAKE HIM UP to start getting the kids ready. Because he won't remember to set an alarm. And when I call him, I have to tell him - kids need to be dressed, with shoes, and fed by the time I get home. I have to do this EACH TIME. It is exhausting. I also have to remind him to take his computer, his cell phone, his wallet and his badge to work. I have to check my wallet and make sure that he hasn't taken all of my forms of payment (because he loses his wallet so frequently that is a very common occurrence) before I leave for work. If he's driving the kids to school, I have to tell him to go take a shower, to get in the car, to GO GO GO or they will be late. 

 

I frequently have to call him to remind him to come home from work. Because he doesn't notice that it's 5:45 or 6:00. I have to remind him to sign his time card for work. Because he's gotten so far behind on that before that he's had to take multi-hour training courses on the weekend which takes away from family time. 

 

I'm considering this an ADD issue. So I've purchased several books about that (recommended here and others) and I'm going to start there for advice. I also mentioned that I think we may need counseling last night. He said "ok."

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug: Some of what I'm posting (like about the backpacks) isn't directly related to your exact situation--it's more pertinent to the way the rest of this conversation is evolving. 

 

As to the rest of your post, you need to stop supporting him so much. I probably have EF issues similar to your DH's, and like I mentioned, I could see myself forgetting the sunscreen/bug spray on the second go round. But for the rest? You need to stop being his brain and start letting him experience some failure on his own so he can start creating his own coping mechanisms. Even when it involves getting the kids to school! They're little enough that the blame will fall on him and not them at this point, and he will be the one who has to deal with that. Do not take that stuff on for him anymore, or he will never learn or develop his own strategies. 

 

Are you able to remain falsely cheerful in the face of things like the kids not being ready for you to leave with them? "Oh, babe, I'm so sorry, but they're not ready to go yet--they still need their shoes and sunscreen, and I really have to run! You'll have to take this morning, but I'll try tomorrow. Love you, bye!" No (apparent) judgment or resentment, but just matter-of-factness: X has hasn't happened, so Y isn't going to be possible. Therefore, you'll have to handle Z instead.

 

Honestly, I hate to say this, but all of this sounds like strategies for helping teenagers learn life management skills (something I'm immersed in these days). Try to keep emotions out of all of it, but support where you can, and then let the chips fall where they may. On lower-stakes things, at least.

[Bluegoat]

This paints a very different picture from your OP. It completely sounds like an ADD issue and not a mere "how do we talk about household work" issue. You describe a person who is not neurotypical, who is incapable of functioning at the level typical for adults, and who has been conditioned to function only through the help of your extensive scaffolding in the simplest daily tasks.

 

So any advice given for communcating and dividing labor with a neurotypical spouse probably won't apply to your situation at all. I hope you can find strategies to work this out, and perhaps get the help of a specialist. 

 

Yes, I think this is a totally different problem. 

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Oh, yes, I think you are right.  People often end up with the jobs they care about more.

 

With the social thing - this has been my observation even of dads that stay home with kids or are single parents.  They just don't seem to care so much about things like signing kids up for activities, or making sure the kids get to see grandpa every week.  I've known a few where a working wife kept arranging the social calendar for a dad who does everything else.

 

I can see that. Although in our case, it would be my extrovert DH running the kids all over the dang place! I think that kind of thing often does tend to run more along gender lines though.

[QueenCat]

Please see my post a few above to explain WHY he should have known. He WAS given the information on Monday. 

 

I get what your saying..... sort of......... I wouldn't assume the kids need the same things done for camp every day, though. When my kids went to day camps, they didn't necessarily swim every day or spend the morning outside every day, so things like sunscreen weren't necessarily done every morning.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

So this is a whole lot more information than previously.  The fact that he's going into your wallet and taking your debit card (and cash?) without telling you because he has lost his wallet is a huge issue for me.  Not so much the lost wallet, I lose a million things a year....but that he would quietly go into your wallet and take whatever....that indicates to me that he really isn't thinking about anyone but himself, at all.  Its so much more to me than not managing to complete the management and logistical tasks. 

 

This is a very good point. Which may be why this sounds so much like dealing with a teenager to me *sigh* OP, jump at his acceptance of counseling and go. 

[lauraw4321]

I get what your saying..... sort of......... I wouldn't assume the kids need the same things done for camp every day, though. When my kids went to day camps, they didn't necessarily swim every day or spend the morning outside every day, so things like sunscreen weren't necessarily done every morning.

We literally discussed that they did the same thing every day at the same time every day. Trust me. You would have known.

[Tanaqui]

So dropping by just to share a link, and not giving any commentary on the OP's husband or anybody else's spouse.

 

This is related to the comic link posted before. You should read the embedded link and also all the comments both there and on this link I'm posting.

 

Bonus: a humorous copypasta!

 

 

[regentrude]

Please see my post a few above to explain WHY he should have known. He WAS given the information on Monday. 

 

But if, as you describe in your other post, he is unable to remember his wallet and his phone which he uses every.single.day, he may be simply incapable of remembering an isolated task he has been told about once on a previous day.

He cannot handle the daily routine tasks of adult life - waking up, taking wallet, coming home - without your reminder. So expecting him to remember anything beyond that seems like asking him to do the impossible.

 

I hope you guys find help.

Edited June 28, 2017 by regentrude

[Tanaqui]

I wouldn't assume the kids need the same things done for camp every day, though.

 

But wouldn't you ask, then, if you weren't sure?

 

Edit: Oh, dear, now I'm getting involved. I better be off.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Tanaqui

[lauraw4321]

So this is a whole lot more information than previously.  The fact that he's going into your wallet and taking your debit card (and cash?) without telling you because he has lost his wallet is a huge issue for me.  Not so much the lost wallet, I lose a million things a year....but that he would quietly go into your wallet and take whatever....that indicates to me that he really isn't thinking about anyone but himself, at all.  Its so much more to me than not managing to complete the management and logistical tasks. 

 

Post got eaten. Yes, to the bolded. This is what I've been flailing to put into words. Whether he is or isn't, it certainly appears and feels like he doesn't think or care about how his actions inconvenience me, or make me late, or inconvenience the kids, or stress any of us out. 

[QueenCat]

But wouldn't you ask, then, if you weren't sure?

 

Edit: Oh, dear, now I'm getting involved. I better be off.

 

Depends.... on whether or not I was unsure. I'd assume to do normal getting ready things but not extras like sunscreen.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

So dropping by just to share a link, and not giving any commentary on the OP's husband or anybody else's spouse.

 

This is related to the comic link posted before. You should read the embedded link and also all the comments both there and on this link I'm posting.

 

Bonus: a humorous copypasta!

 

I think I must be either very fortunate or very smart, because I really haven't met or dated many guys like that in my life. I don't have a lot of patience for people in general, so I probably just write them off at the first sign of that BS :lol:

 

On a related note, this essay is always so relevant to these discussions:

 

http://www.columbia.edu/~sss31/rainbow/wife.html

 

ETA: Ha! I just saw that Judy Brady is quoted further down in that discussion!

Edited June 28, 2017 by ILiveInFlipFlops

[maize]

Post got eaten. Yes, to the bolded. This is what I've been flailing to put into words. Whether he is or isn't, it certainly appears and feels like he doesn't think or care about how his actions inconvenience me, or make me late, or inconvenience the kids, or stress any of us out.

Sounds like a situation where good marriage counseling might help.

[lauraw4321]

So dropping by just to share a link, and not giving any commentary on the OP's husband or anybody else's spouse.

 

This is related to the comic link posted before. You should read the embedded link and also all the comments both there and on this link I'm posting.

 

Bonus: a humorous copypasta!

 

I have started reading the first one before, but I get upset by it. Of course I do all of that work as well. I wish I'd never even thought about it.

[QueenCat]

But if, as you describe in your other post, he is unable to remember his wallet and his phone which he uses every.single.day, he may be simply incapable of remembering an isolated task he has been told about once on a previous day.

He cannot handle the daily routine tasks of adult life - waking up, taking wallet, coming home - without your reminder. So expecting him to remember anything beyond that seems like asking him to do the impossible.

 

I hope you guys find help.

 

 

Post got eaten. Yes, to the bolded. This is what I've been flailing to put into words. Whether he is or isn't, it certainly appears and feels like he doesn't think or care about how his actions inconvenience me, or make me late, or inconvenience the kids, or stress any of us out. 

 

It seems to me, the more you write, that you KNOW he needs help but instead you are angry at him for the way his brain works. It sounds like you both could use therapy. Him to help with his actual issues. You to help yourself deal with who is he is & help yourself get into a better place, more at peace.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

nm 

 

Edited June 28, 2017 by ILiveInFlipFlops

[Bluegoat]

Post got eaten. Yes, to the bolded. This is what I've been flailing to put into words. Whether he is or isn't, it certainly appears and feels like he doesn't think or care about how his actions inconvenience me, or make me late, or inconvenience the kids, or stress any of us out. 

 

I think when people struggle with daily things like that, often they are flying by the seat of their pants constantly so things don't fall apart.

 

It's like fixing up an unexpected crises all the time, so you just do what you have to in the moment.  There is no thinking ahead.

 

I think you should see about counseling to help your dh find ways to cope - who knows, maybe meds would even help and I do not typically tend to suggest that.  But as long as he is operating to fix a crises all the time, he likely doesn't have the time or focus to see beyond that.

 

The sleeping thing, while horribly annoying, is common with ADD - there is no sense of time like most people have to let them allocate tasks according to time in a normal way.

[lauraw4321]

I think when people struggle with daily things like that, often they are flying by the seat of their pants constantly so things don't fall apart.

 

It's like fixing up an unexpected crises all the time, so you just do what you have to in the moment.  There is no thinking ahead.

 

I think you should see about counseling to help your dh find ways to cope - who knows, maybe meds would even help and I do not typically tend to suggest that.  But as long as he is operating to fix a crises all the time, he likely doesn't have the time or focus to see beyond that.

 

The sleeping thing, while horribly annoying, is common with ADD - there is no sense of time like most people have to let them allocate tasks according to time in a normal way.

 

Unfortunately, he already takes meds. That's what's really worrisome to me. I guess maybe part of the issue is he takes them in the morning, so they are really only effective while he's at work? Which means the morning and evening (when we need to function together) he's not getting that help. But what I'm saying is, he already takes medicine. So I'm pessimistic that there's much that can be done. At the same time, I'm pessimistic that I can deal with it forever. 

 

I used to get very angry. I don't anymore. But I also don't think I can just accept it and "deal with it" forever. Yes to counseling.

 

And thank you to everyone who participated in the thread.

[regentrude]

Unfortunately, he already takes meds. That's what's really worrisome to me. I guess maybe part of the issue is he takes them in the morning, so they are really only effective while he's at work? Which means the morning and evening (when we need to function together) he's not getting that help. But what I'm saying is, he already takes medicine. So I'm pessimistic that there's much that can be done. At the same time, I'm pessimistic that I can deal with it forever. 

 

I used to get very angry. I don't anymore. But I also don't think I can just accept it and "deal with it" forever. Yes to counseling.

 

And thank you to everyone who participated in the thread.

 

:grouphug: That sounds incredibly difficult and frustrating.

[QueenCat]

Unfortunately, he already takes meds. That's what's really worrisome to me. I guess maybe part of the issue is he takes them in the morning, so they are really only effective while he's at work? Which means the morning and evening (when we need to function together) he's not getting that help. But what I'm saying is, he already takes medicine. So I'm pessimistic that there's much that can be done. At the same time, I'm pessimistic that I can deal with it forever. 

 

I used to get very angry. I don't anymore. But I also don't think I can just accept it and "deal with it" forever. Yes to counseling.

 

And thank you to everyone who participated in the thread.

 

It's possible that he needs a different med. Or different dosing. Ds used to take his ADHD meds in increments. First one was literally as he got out of bed. It was in his room so he could take it upon rising. I would have a small bottle of water there with it. He took another dose mid-day that helped through the evening. See if he'll let you talk to his doctor that gives him the meds. Or go to his next appt with him.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Unfortunately, he already takes meds. That's what's really worrisome to me. I guess maybe part of the issue is he takes them in the morning, so they are really only effective while he's at work? Which means the morning and evening (when we need to function together) he's not getting that help. But what I'm saying is, he already takes medicine. So I'm pessimistic that there's much that can be done. At the same time, I'm pessimistic that I can deal with it forever. 

 

I used to get very angry. I don't anymore. But I also don't think I can just accept it and "deal with it" forever. Yes to counseling.

 

And thank you to everyone who participated in the thread.

 

How did he get through high school? College? Young adulthood? Have you or someone else always been there to prompt him along at important points during his days? 

[lauraw4321]

How did he get through high school? College? Young adulthood? Have you or someone else always been there to prompt him along at important points during his days? 

 

High school was a big struggle. He started meds in college. He is able to hyper-focus on things. His degree is in a field that is very project-driven, so he was able to graduate. Not the best GPA, but good enough for a job. He's quite good at what he does. His ADD actually helps him in most of the core aspects of his work.

[City Mouse]

It sounds like he has been "trained" to wait to be told what to do all the time. While in the world are you having to remind him to take his wallet to work (rhetorical question)?

 

I will be honest and admit that my DH is very much like yours, and I also work a full time job.The young kid years were terrible for me. That is part of the reason we only have two kids. I refuse to nag him like I am his mother. Anyway, as a totally different approach, I figured out how to take care of the kids/household tasks without his input. That meant changing my expectations sometimes and changing my procedures sometimes, and hiring help sometimes. One year I had to getup at 4:30 during the week to get myself and the kids out on time. One year was so horrible that I told him I was either quitting my job (which I did not like)or getting a divorce. Along with that, I became totally hands off in managing his day to day life. he takes care of his own laundry. When he had an office job, that included taking his shirts to the cleaners or ironing them himself. He has to get up on his own when his alarm goes off. Just today as he was getting ready for work, he realized that he had no clean undershirts, but he managed and got himself to work.

 

This is not husband bashing as He has many good qualities, but he was not a great parent to little kids and we/I had some very difficult years.

[happypamama]

I haven't gotten to read the entire thread, but I wanted to say that I understand. I've been a SAHM for sixteen years. At first, I had one easy little baby. She needed to be fed, changed, cuddled. I needed to bring a diaper or two with me when we left the house. Then I needed to make sure she got her teeth brushed and her food cut up. Then I needed to childproof the house. Then I needed to comb out long hair. And so on and so on. I learned bit by bit, every stage. Sometimes I didn't get it right. Sometimes I could have used something else when we were out. Sometimes we needed to make an emergency trip to the store for some food item we'd run out of. Sometimes I needed to clean up something, like the time DD managed to dump olive oil all over the kitchen floor in the two seconds I'd dashed upstairs. So I learned and mentally made adjustments, often without thinking. Nowadays I think running a household of seven while homeschooling is totally easy, except that I never have enough time and energy for everything. I know how to look at five kids and see who still needs to do something. I can walk into Aldi with no list and still come out with a reasonable appproximation of a week's worth of meals. Point is, I didn't magically learn all of that at once. It was incremental steps. DH is awesome. He will do dishes and laundry and bathe kids and stop at the store and all of that. But I probably do need to ask him to do it. (Well, he will do dishes and clean up the kitchen without being asked because he does see when they need to be done.). But he's also totally comfortable with me managing and simply delegating as needed. I think many men are like that. I try to look at it like this: there are certain areas that are his to manage -- his office/job, the cars, the yard, the furnace. I will happily purchase parts for cars/mower, feed the furnace, schedule repairs with the mechanic, tske stuff to the office if needed if he's hurt or sick, etc. But I need him to tell me when those things need to be done. We all have our spheres of knowledge and expertise, and that's okay. I think it's okay to tell your dh to feed the kids while you pack the backpacks, just like he might ask me to call the mechanic, but then the mechanic will discuss the details with him. If he weren't around, I'd learn, and if I weren't around, he'd learn. I kind of think that no matter what, one parent is naturally going to manage and delegate household stuff. A list of what needs to be done nightly is maybe helpful, and so is open communication. But if he will do stuff happily if you ask, you might just need to suck it up and be okay with that.

Edited June 29, 2017 by happypamama

[almondbutterandjelly]

I agree that he doesn't sound neuro-typical and most of the advice you got here won't apply.  Have you thought of hiring a nanny or a housekeeper or a house manager?  Someone who can help you, since dh is who he is and may not be able to change.  You still love him?  He's a good guy?  His brain works how it works.  He's not doing things on purpose to tick you off or make your life harder.  But it may be up to you to make your life easier.  Teach your kids to put on their own shoes and socks (I had a colorful list of pictures for my dd's to-do list to get ready every day.  It included every.thing.  Going to the toilet.  Washing hands.  Brushing teeth.  Clothes.  Socks. Shoes.  Every.thing.).  Hire that help.  ((hugs))

Edited June 28, 2017 by perkybunch

[fairfarmhand]

Also, my kids have gotten into the habit of trusting mom as the household manager. So they tell ME stuff and I'm expected to make sure it's done.

 

So if Dad becomes the designated backpack packer, they need to tell HIM what is needed or he should be talking to teachers to figure it out. It's really inefficient for you to have all the information come to you, if you're not going to be the person packing the backpacks.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

High school was a big struggle. He started meds in college. He is able to hyper-focus on things. His degree is in a field that is very project-driven, so he was able to graduate. Not the best GPA, but good enough for a job. He's quite good at what he does. His ADD actually helps him in most of the core aspects of his work.

 

Hmm, yes, this is starting to sound like a bigger problem than it did at first. 

 

I agree that he doesn't sound neuro-typical and most of the advice you got here won't apply.  Have you thought of hiring a nanny or a housekeeper or a house manager?  Someone who can help you, since dh is who he is and may not be able to change.  You still love him?  He's a good guy?  His brain works how it works.  He's not doing things on purpose to tick you off or make your life harder.  But it may be up to you to make your life easier.  Teach your kids to put on their own shoes and socks (I had a colorful list of pictures for my dd's to-do list to get ready every day.  It included every.thing.  Going to the toilet.  Washing hands.  Brushing teeth.  Clothes.  Socks. Shoes.  Every.thing.).  Hire that help.  ((hugs))

 

This is good advice. I know you've mentioned nannies in the past. Are they still an option? This might be the kind of problem I'd throw money at if I could, both in the form of counseling and in the form or household help. I still think that there's room for improvement on his part. If he can get up in time for work in the morning, he can get up in time to get the kids ready, for example. But I would expect change to be slow and laborious, albeit still worthwhile. As I mentioned earlier, it still takes me many cycles to really feel like I have some new pattern in hand, and I think I'm much higher functioning than your DH sounds (I still feel like a hot mess most days though). 

 

Do get professional help with this, though. That neutral third party might help your DH transition better than he might if it was just you (even if that stinks on principle). 

[fairfarmhand]

I did not ask him or expect him to do anything with the backpacks. So I did not communicate about the backpack. I did all of that myself. 

 

The first day of camp, he and I discussed (at length) the need for bug spray and sunscreen. We discussed which types (family/deet/deep woods; spray/rub/face, etc.) He had lots of questions (understandably) and I answered them. Then he applied them.  HE APPLIED THEM.

 

Then the second day, when I wasn't there to tell him to apply them (because I went for a run because I lose my mind if I don't), he didn't. Because he didn't think about it. Because he NEVER thinks about this stuff. Because the thinking and remembering is all my job.  Nor did he have them put on shoes and socks. Which I think we can ALL agree requires NO SCAFFOLDING. Because...? Because me saying "get the girls ready for camp" is insufficient directions??? He knew my time would be limited because I was out for a run. If I KNOW someone's time is limited, then I'm going to do ALL THE THINGS that I KNOW about to accomplish the task given me. But he won't. BECAUSE HE DOESN'T THINK ABOUT IT. Because he has ADD or because he's a man or for whatever reason. That process of... hmmm.. this person has to leave with the kids in X minutes, and they asked me to get the kids ready, so what all does that entail to make sure they aren't pressed for time.  That thought process?  Does.Not.Happen. 

 

During the school year, when I go for a run, I have to CALL HIM to WAKE HIM UP to start getting the kids ready. Because he won't remember to set an alarm. And when I call him, I have to tell him - kids need to be dressed, with shoes, and fed by the time I get home. I have to do this EACH TIME. It is exhausting. I also have to remind him to take his computer, his cell phone, his wallet and his badge to work. I have to check my wallet and make sure that he hasn't taken all of my forms of payment (because he loses his wallet so frequently that is a very common occurrence) before I leave for work. If he's driving the kids to school, I have to tell him to go take a shower, to get in the car, to GO GO GO or they will be late. 

 

I frequently have to call him to remind him to come home from work. Because he doesn't notice that it's 5:45 or 6:00. I have to remind him to sign his time card for work. Because he's gotten so far behind on that before that he's had to take multi-hour training courses on the weekend which takes away from family time. 

 

I'm considering this an ADD issue. So I've purchased several books about that (recommended here and others) and I'm going to start there for advice. I also mentioned that I think we may need counseling last night. He said "ok."

 

See this is about more than just not caring about getting kids ready for camp. This is a whole lifestyle problem that probably is more about his ADD/Exective function issues than the fact that you have to prop him up. This isn't household issues, this is whole life issues.

 

Many of us have dhs who need explcit instructions on getting the kitchen cleaned up. But I'd venture to say that in most people's marriage, they don't have to make sure that wallets are not forgotten, time cards are filled out, and other REALLY IMPORTANT things are not overlooked.

 

 

[TravelingChris]

I am adhd and while my dh is too, he is the mildly (and the inattentive type) and he has organized his life to deal with it mostly well. He has routines developed. Some of them are ones I do too. I am not well organized. But I was able to do many kinds of things too. Like I do well with planning meals, activities, trips and that kind of thing. He uses lots of lists. Some of his lists help me like he has lists for packing for camping trips. I am not sure he has lists for regular trips but I can adapt the camping trip list to accomadate us. We do have significant differences though. Like he thinks all dishes should be washed before eating;. I don't agree. I don't like cold food and don't like getting burned with hot pans. Sometimes I do it his way and other times I don't. For that matter, sometimes he doesn't do it either.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Sure, one person can end up with all the mental work.

 

As long as the partner isn't a jerk, you can transfer that.  But you often do have to say - I am giving you this whole job.  Not just cooking, but meal planning and groceries.

 

What I see tends to go wrong with this at times is that the first person tries to maintain control in some way.  Maybe by laying out how the task is done, or when.  Or being impatient while the other person becomes efficient. 

 

And sometimes the problem is that one person cares more than the other about certain things.  It's hard to do a significant task the way another person wants when you really don't think its needed.   Probably the one mental load problem I've seen that seems to be typically differnt between males and females relates to social calander - being the person who holds together the network of family/social relations, kids activities, and so on.  It seems like 99% of the time, moms want a lot more from this than dads do, or perhaps they feel greater pressures to have things a certain way.

 

But I get the resentment at having to dole out tasks and that he doesn't just think to do them. 

 

Now, I like him and care about him and love him and all that so that is why I just let it go, but I won't say the resentment is never there. 

[kbutton]

OP, please know that you are not alone in finding yourself in a situation where ADHD (known or unknown) has led to greater entrenchment. It happens--what one poster mentioned about your DH flying by the seat of the pants just to hold body and soul together is something that happens to the partner without ADHD as well when the problem is severe enough. You just do what you have to do to survive. Usually there is a slow drip of precipitating factors--one change or another, you add a kid to the family, you add a specific stressor, and then the non-ADHD affected spouse is in the same boat!

 

On meds--there are more options out there. Some people are on multiple meds. You probably have to add CBT or something to the meds to get more skills out of the deal. I would strongly suggest going to an appointment with your DH and giving your side of the story to the doctor. Be very frank. I heard ADHD screaming out in your very first posts because...BTDT. Tell the doctor what you started telling people at the end of this thread, not what you said at the beginning.  ;)  I knew how bad it could be and recognized that you were probably holding back to test the waters and/or be respectful to your DH. His doctor needs to know what you've said about alarms, time cards, etc. He NEEDS to know. 

 

I wouldn't do ANY sink or swim without professional help. If he sinks, then what? You go back to doing it all while feeling more demoralized? You let him get fired? You can't sleep at all and turn into a paranoid robot? He's not going to swim--you've already figured that out. 

 

I would try to get some help of some kind to take some of the stress off of you--it's NOT the same as having an involved spouse who is willing to share the mental load, but it might help you keep your head above water until you have a solid plan based on evidence, counseling, etc. You need a safety net yesterday. The game plan is after that (obviously, even getting the safety net has a game plan, but a game plan for the larger problem can wait until you have a safety net). 

 

Be aware that once you start getting some relief, you are going to want to crash and recover. It's like when you just keep going because you have to--the minute you sit down you want to sleep for days. 

 

Oh, and our counselor tells people to give a prospective no more than 2 visits--if you don't like them at all, one will do. You don't have time or bandwidth to feel bad about a counselor who doesn't get it. You need to get down to business. 

 

Our library had this book, so I showed it my counselor (it's written for counselors and other professionals). She really liked it. https://www.amazon.com/Distracted-Couple-Impact-Adult-Relationships/dp/1845908775/ref=pd_sim_14_42?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=1845908775&pd_rd_r=ZYTGGF7982W0G68F3QB8&pd_rd_w=fOe0C&pd_rd_wg=53VE1&psc=1&refRID=ZYTGGF7982W0G68F3QB8

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[goldberry]

DH is ADD and has to be asked and specifically directed to do things.  He will happily, however, always do what is asked and how it is directed.  I have become okay with that.  He has occasionally gotten a bit huffy when I am too specific with directions, but then I remind him that just last week he was complaining, "well, you never told me I needed to THAT too!"   Yes it sucks that I carry the mental load, but the truth is I knew DH was like that and I chose him for his other valuable qualities.  Also I've seen too many men that will not help even when they are asked, so I appreciate that much.

 

I would NOT be okay with him acting as if he is doing me a favor, which OP mentioned in her first post.  DH has never acted like that, or implied it. He is also quite thankful and appreciative of what I do, and expresses that on a fairly regular basis.  If he was not:  I would start by implementing some of the great ideas mentioned in this thread so that he starts to understand how many chores there really are.  Hopefully his idea that he's doing you a favor is related to him just not knowing.  Once he does understand, if the attitude didn't change, I would have a heart sit down and talk about that issue. 

 

ETA, there a few things that I tell DH specifically, "If you want that to happen you need to handle it.  I will not be handling it."  I've done that with camping, etc.  He knows very clearly what I mean when I say that.

Edited June 28, 2017 by goldberry

[kbutton]

The editor of the book I linked has a blog I didn't know about--linking in case it's good. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-distracted-couple

 

 

[vonbon]

I'll probably come back and read the whole thread later b/c we have a lot of discussions about division of labor in our marriage too.  We always have discussed it and I think we always will.  One reason is DH and I do a lot of "crossover" jobs that maybe (?) traditionally fit into roles.  For example, I'll weedeat and take stuff to the dump, assist our contractor with home improvement/remodel jobs.  DH does any/all of this too but is also engaged with the kids when needed.  I pay the bills but DH does the investing, for example.  He does most of the gardening/livestock but I fill in when he travels for work.  I always mop; he always changes the oil...We both have to accept how the other person gets the job done. It's taken years to get to a good spot and it's still not always smooth sailing.  

 

What's stressful is when our plates are too full in general and then everyone has to operate at "peak performance" to get everything done.  That's when the claws tend to come out and we have little grace for each other.  I'm finally wising up and wondering if we might need to cut back a little to maintain peace in our home.  (Not saying this is possible for all families, as sometimes you have to what you have to do to provide...)  For us, maybe we've added in too many optional things.  We are starting to schedule down time and buffer time (as a family, as a couple, as individuals).  

 

A couple of thoughts: 

- I make lists for everything!  Maybe you don't need that scaffolding, OP, as you said.  For DD8, I make little index cards for certain backpacks that list ALL of the required items/actions (swim bag, for example...school bag, etc.).  They can be laminated and punched to go on a ring.  I'm slowly teaching her to check for due library books and pack that bag as well.  Library cards are attached to the library bag with a ring.  It takes time to make these types of cards/lists, but I try to set aside a little downtime to do it here and there because it does pay dividends in terms of time, energy, training, etc.  

 

- Chore charts are very detailed here and include pictures/drawings for the non-reader and words for the reader.  Just 15 seconds for me to flip through the cards (they're homemade cards so they're very specific jobs for our house/family) each morning or the night before and hang up the ones that truly need doing.  

 

- I use a lot of "bins" (square-ish with handles) and set them out for any number of days ahead that I need to to keep everyone organized.  These are all packed in advance--the night before or a few days before.  I can attach a scrap paper to the handle with a clip that might have a specific note on it like, "Remember sunscreen and bug spray before going out of the door!" and then I put the spray and sunscreen right in the bin.  If we have a big out-of-town trip and there are a lot of things to remember, I might even start throwing things in to the bin weeks ahead of time and store it in the spare room.  I label it with "San Francisco" or whatever destination to remind me of what it's for.  Randomly, the kids will remember something in the days/weeks leading up to the event and I'll tell them to go throw it in the bin or throw a note into the bin for some related task.  Maybe you don't need this, but for a family or people with issues remembering (me), it helps greatly!

 

- We are at Year 17 of marriage and I foresee these "Division of Labor" conversations going on basically for the rest of life.  Because life changes and availability of each partner changes over time.  We have to keep negotiating and "using our words" to communicate what changes need to happen to keep everyone sane and healthy.  Change can be made on any given day of your life!  So just because something's been a certain way for 13 years doesn't mean it can't change.  Change is way more possible, obviously, with 2 willing parties.  Maybe you guys can shift from the defensive/argumentative stage of negotiating to impersonal/objective conversations of just, "Hey, I'm burned out/unavailable...I need help with XYZ...I'm using my Big Girl Words and asking for your help...and what can I do to make your life easier...?"  

 

- At some level I've just accepted DH isn't going to remember certain details so I try to prep as much stuff as possible ahead of time so the details hopefully get done without me there.  At some point I started letting him fail/flail here and there with things like remembering his phone, calendar, etc.  I just can't handle my own mental load and someone else's and the kids'...  I couldn't bear his stress and my own.  I refuse to be an enabler, his mom, or a nag.  Sometimes his work stuff would bleed over, as he works out of the house.  I finally said, "Either make your own packing lists (lots of gear for weeklong, outdoor work trips, for example) or suffer the consequences.  I can't set aside the time I've already budgeted for my work to deal with your work too."  I stopped swooping in to "rescue"...Like OP's DH, he is incredibly capable, bright, intelligent, good at what he does...he just didn't used to be super organized or planned or he'd procrastinate and then I'd have to pitch in last-minute.  He stressed a bit and floundered and then eventually didn't like that and came up with his own systems.  

 

- We meet and share our calendars every week on Sundays.  After me being driven crazy about DH's scheduling for years.  He used to not write anything down.  He used to keep 4 separate calendars--totally disorganized.  He was very focused on his own schedule and wouldn't add any of my/kids' events to his pages.   :001_rolleyes:  This affected everyone in the family.  I finally conveyed that it was an issue of respect to care about the other person's time/energy/schedule for the week and to communicate ahead of time to avoid issues/arguments.  I hate to fly by the seat of my pants in terms of availability and DH's schedule varies greatly.  We write down the other's schedule day-by-day and even months ahead if possible.  Then we know to expect extra stress surrounding certain events and know that we'll have to fill in a bit more with work/support of each other.  Working on this process has taken about a decade, literally, but it's much better now.  It's been worth it.

 

We've had a lot of discussions about "when we signed up for parenting"...I (woman/wife/mom) didn't plan on taking on XYZ...these items should be shared...we need boundaries...reshaping of expectations of the other person/life...etc.  My DH is a gem and I hope none of this is read as bashing.  I'm crazy about him and I have my fair share of junk to improve upon.  I dunno if either of us has ADD, but a lot of conversing and changing has had to happen as we "grow up" together.  It's all been worth it.

 

I hope some small nugget helps.  Maybe I'm off-base and you're talking about something altogether different.  Either way, best of luck as you make changes for the better in your marriage!  

 

P.S.  If you can find a good counselor = totally worth it!  Could save you a lot of heartache...not always necessary and you can get to a better point either way, but can be extremely beneficial for learning how to live life better and work towards each other's strengths...

[Catwoman]

Unfortunately, he already takes meds. That's what's really worrisome to me. I guess maybe part of the issue is he takes them in the morning, so they are really only effective while he's at work? Which means the morning and evening (when we need to function together) he's not getting that help. But what I'm saying is, he already takes medicine. So I'm pessimistic that there's much that can be done. At the same time, I'm pessimistic that I can deal with it forever.

 

I used to get very angry. I don't anymore. But I also don't think I can just accept it and "deal with it" forever. Yes to counseling.

 

And thank you to everyone who participated in the thread.

Now that you have posted more details, I just wanted to say that I'm sorry you're so frustrated and I hope your dh can perhaps get his meds changed so he can be more independently functional. It must be so hard for you to have to manage everything all the time. :grouphug:

 

On the other hand, your dh has a diagnosed problem, so it doesn't seem fair that you should get angry with him for not being able to handle the tasks you set for him or to remember to do things around the house that most of us would consider to be routine. Let's face it, getting the kids ready for camp or remembering to unload the dishwasher may seem like simple things to you and me, but if your dh needs a reminder to take his own shower in the morning, a multi-step process like getting the kids ready for camp might seem overwhelming to him, and it probably wouldn't even occur to him to unload the dishwasher unless you put a big note on the kitchen countertop reminding him to do it.

 

I hope you're able to get his meds changed and that you find a good counselor. Honestly, I don't know how you have managed to live this way for so many years, and I can understand why you're reaching a breaking point. The only comfort I can try to provide is that your dh probably isn't intentionally upsetting you; he may not be able to help himself learn to do the things you want him to do and accept the responsibilities you'd like him to shoulder.

 

Oh -- and after reading all of your posts, I now especially believe you shouldn't leave him with the responsibility of choosing, buying, and wrapping your dd's birthday gift. I think you may be setting him up for failure and setting your dd up for disappointment.

 

Sending you hugs. :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

Edited June 28, 2017 by Catwoman

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I didn't get the sense that the OP was so much angry as frustrated. IIRC, she's been dealing with a lot over the last year or so, and it can be very frustrating to feel like you're pulling the whole train along by yourself. I imagine it's even more frustrating when you sort of recognize that even if fixes can be made, they're not going to be easy ones!

 

Oh -- and after reading all of your posts, I now especially believe you shouldn't leave him with the responsibility of choosing, buying, and wrapping your dd's birthday gift. I think you may be setting him up for failure and setting your dd up for disappointment.

 

I forgot to say earlier that I do agree with this, though. IMO, this is one of the higher-stakes things to hand off, for both DD and DH. There's a high potential for both of them to end up feeling badly. Your DH does sound like a decent guy, and if he sinks rather than swims on something like this, he may feel badly enough that it may put him off trying to step outside his already limited capabilities. If you do decide to have him keep the responsibility, I'd do periodic check-ins and make sure he has a deadline with some buffer time to fix any problems if they crop up. 

Edited June 28, 2017 by ILiveInFlipFlops

[zoobie]

After the additional details, I really hope counseling is effective. I would wonder if it's all extreme ADHD or if there is narcissism affecting things as well. As far as medication goes, he could take a booster med on his way home in order to be fully functioning for his family. Does he take the meds on weekends? Do you notice them being effective during typical workday hours then?

 

I also wouldn't leave DD's birthday present up to him. That's not fair to risk her feelings. It totally sucks that everything is up to you. :grouphug: