College and wealth

[Sneezyone]

Well first of all, many working-class /modest income people do not consider themselves to be in a "cycle of poverty" nor do they aspire to jump to the richest quartile.  Again, that may just not be something they value.  Those enjoying a decent life near family in a low-COL area may prefer that to the high-COL, lonely situation the top quintile often finds itself in.

 

We can say that but is it really true? Isn't the heart of our national discontent that people are feeling locked out of opportunities and jobs that allow them to live a comfortable middle-class life? Isn't our national admiration of wealth (e.g. wealth=worth) a reflection of people's aspirations? They may not perceive themselves to be locked into a cycle of poverty, true. Who really wants to believe that they're poor, right? But that is, in essence, what has happened over the last 30 years. More and more people have been pushed down the economic ladder into near-poverty levels of income and job security. I have seen this attitude many, many times in my college readiness work from parents in rural areas. I, personally, think it's a defence mechanism. It often results in 'crab in a bucket' behavior tho, keeping kids from moving up for fear that they'll be left behind.

[Sneezyone]

This was my job as a GEAR UP counselor.  GEAR UP is still in place.  It stands for Gaining Early Awareness and Readiness for Undergraduate Programs and is aimed at inner city schools, first gen college bound.  While my other counseling friends bragged about what colleges they go their students into, I told them my job was to let families know that college was even an option.

 

I worked for the one in Los Angeles.  I was a counselor.  

 

One HUGE thing that happened while I was there is that CA changed their in-state tuition rules and undocumented could get in-state tuition if they had attended a CA high school.  This helped tremendously since prior to that, even community college was completely out of the price range of most of our students.

 

I realize that is politically charged, but since we are discussing this on the main forum, I will say it anyway.  

 

http://www.edpartnerships.org/gear-up

 

In NC, undocumented students still pay out of state tuition, and that makes it out of range for many.

 

Also, FTR, lol, our WA State GEAR UP program was regionally diverse. We worked in Inchelium (native community), Grays Harbor (logging community), Tri-cities (farm labourers, mostly) and in urban Seattle and Tacoma. GEAR UP programs serve different populations.

[DawnM]

Also, FTR, lol, our WA State GEAR UP program was regionally diverse. We worked in Inchelium (native community), Grays Harbor (logging community), Tri-cities (farm labourers, mostly) and in urban Seattle and Tacoma. GEAR UP programs serve different populations.

 

I am not sure what you are saying.  Isn't this still first gen college bound? Lower income?  That is the population they are targeting, regardless of which race, etc....

[Sneezyone]

I am not sure what you are saying.  Isn't this still first gen college bound? Lower income?  That is the population they are targeting, regardless of which race, etc....

 

Yes, but it's not all urban kids. Every program/grant is written to serve different populations of students. The feds actually work hard to encourage/fund programs that serve low-income and/or first-generation kids all over the country. Our grant was designed as a continuation of NEISP to find out whether the strategies we employed would work with different populations of kids/families.

[Murphy101]

I'm torn about that link. I put my boys' college in it.

 

The success rate is 56% but the mobility rate is 11%

 

One of the reasons we decided on this school is when I compared the success rates with other colleges, they had a much higher rate. But I'm not sending my kids to college under any delusion that college = becoming wealthy. I'm okay if they never become the top 5%. I'm not okay if they become the bottom 20%. Actually I could be okay with it, but not for the current debt and degrees they have chosen.

 

Eta: I completely agree that income = choices and opportunity. I think people are full of poop if they don't see that. But I also don't think everyone has to live like Trumps to greatly improve income to a point that they have more choices and opportunities. If my kids grown up to have the opportunity to have their own children without fear the hospital bill for the delivery or buying insulin will bankrupt them - that's a major improvement. Will they be able to make daily decisions without the main qualifier being about money - that will be a huge improvement. Will they be able to genuinely choose where to live or where to work - that's a huge improvement. These are basic things that those with more income take for granted and that low incomes don't often have much genuine choice about.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Murphy101

[Carol in Cal.]

One of the tricky parts of all of this is that the advice:  "Go to college and you'll be find financially" is not really true at this point.  When I was a kid, it pretty much was--no matter what your major, if you had a college degree you had a bit of cachet and could reasonably expect to make a good living.  Yes, there were differences in degree of 'success'--high level or networking colleges better, and general ed type degrees from low level colleges worse, but a college degree of any kind distinguished you from others in a good way.

 

Now there are other distinguishers that are more important, and having *some* college is not particularly unique anymore, and we are still adjusting to that.

[Guest]

Quill-you stated pretty much my experience. I ended up at a state school pretty much by accident and discovered I wasn't dumb. My high schoolers attend a small rural public school. Of my dd's grad class of 60 maybe 20 plan some college or community college. It just isn't valued. Many of these kids plan to inherit or work on the family farm. Period. That's not bad but it is a mindset that sees college as a waste. My dd also has several friends whose parents refuse to help pay for education. No help with loans, nada. An 18 yo kid with no support and being pretty much asked to "leave the nest" sooner rather than later is thinking survival not education.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

That is exactly right. At 18, I was thinking, "Well, I better get a job so I can move out of this house." The best bit of advice I got in high school was from my older sister, who recommended I take typing and notehand classes because, "then you can get a job as a secretary." Being a fast typist and an articulate person with all my teeth helped me get my foot in the door at a law firm, which was also total providence how that job fell into my lap. But yes - survival was exactly what I was thinking. I wasn't thinking about upward mobility; I was thinking about how I would buy bagels for dinner and have bus money to my job.

[Sneezyone]

One of the tricky parts of all of this is that the advice:  "Go to college and you'll be find financially" is not really true at this point.  When I was a kid, it pretty much was--no matter what your major, if you had a college degree you had a bit of cachet and could reasonably expect to make a good living.  Yes, there were differences in degree of 'success'--high level or networking colleges better, and general ed type degrees from low level colleges worse, but a college degree of any kind distinguished you from others in a good way.

 

Now there are other distinguishers that are more important, and having *some* college is not particularly unique anymore, and we are still adjusting to that.

 

I think that's totally true, but mostly so along the coasts and in major metros. That's not so much the case elsewhere the country. College going rates vary dramatically by state and locality. In MA and DC, for example, more than half of adults have at least a bachelor's degree. In NM and NV it's under 30%. When you get beyond the major metros having a degree is still a big leg up.

 

New State-by-State College Attainment Numbers Show Progress Toward 2020 Goal

[creekland]

Well first of all, many working-class /modest income people do not consider themselves to be in a "cycle of poverty" nor do they aspire to jump to the richest quartile.  Again, that may just not be something they value.  Those enjoying a decent life near family in a low-COL area may prefer that to the high-COL, lonely situation the top quintile often finds itself in.

 

You apparently know a completely different subset of academically capable, but lower economic class folks than I do.  Those I know live paycheck to paycheck worrying about how they are going to pay for any extra expense like new tires or health issues - often going without.  Their fridges can be empty at times.  They can't quite remember the last time they went on vacation - or even a staycation.  More than one job is common.  They want something better but aren't sure how to actually get there.  Getting more education for themselves is tough because then they'd have to give up a job, not to mention dusting off academic neurons.    For their kids... it can be different and I encourage this when I can.

 

Interestingly enough, there are jobs for college grads in LCOL areas!  Many from our school go to college and then return - doing well.

 

Doubly interesting is that the top quintile (top 20%) isn't lonely!!!  One fifth of Americans are in it and we're not all friendless.  I can't say I know any who are lonely, but I suppose they're not the outgoing types so I wouldn't know them.  Top 1% or 0,5% might be lonelier, but those kids I went to school with at the private school also had friends - as did their parents.  

 

You seem to believe a lot of myths about other economic classes.

 

One of the tricky parts of all of this is that the advice:  "Go to college and you'll be find financially" is not really true at this point.  When I was a kid, it pretty much was--no matter what your major, if you had a college degree you had a bit of cachet and could reasonably expect to make a good living.  Yes, there were differences in degree of 'success'--high level or networking colleges better, and general ed type degrees from low level colleges worse, but a college degree of any kind distinguished you from others in a good way.

 

Now there are other distinguishers that are more important, and having *some* college is not particularly unique anymore, and we are still adjusting to that.

 

The underlined has never been 100% true because there are other things like people skills and talent that come into play when actually in a job (with or without a degree).

 

But statistically, for the student who can handle the academics, it's quite true.  Here are the unemployment rates by degree:

 

https://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm

 

 

Here are income rates by degree:

 

https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2015/median-weekly-earnings-by-education-gender-race-and-ethnicity-in-2014.htm

 

Unfortunately, this one won't copy... one will have to click on the link - then you can get graph or chart data, but all of these degreed people aren't just baristas.

 

It IS important to choose colleges wisely keeping debt (if any) reasonable, but statistically, it's still better having a higher degree than a lower one financially.

 

NOTE:  I am still not saying all kids need to go to college... some are better suited for other jobs and that's ok.  Really, it is.  But if we want to lower levels of poverty in our country, more education can certainly help - esp with more mentoring and financial help for those who need it.

[FaithManor]

In my area, no college tends to mean, no job or at least not one above minimum wage. The economy here never recovered leaving tons of degreed people, tons of people with trade licensing plus years of experience plus business coursework, out of work. They snapped up everything available. To break into anything, including the trades, an associate's degree is the minimum, and most twenty somethings are going to need a BS/BA to do more than part time fast food work and detailed corn.

 

Even one our former rocket team members, junior at a state university, says that the lawn maintenance company she works for in the summers does not have single person mowing lawns for them that does not have two years of college or one of the more tricky to get trade licenses that probably took two years of seminars and study with apprenticeships to get. $10 an hour. That is the pay.

 

Some areas of this country have been very hard hit, and students who do not go beyond a high school education and get at minimum a two year degree or trade school program of equal difficulty will simply not be employed at anything close to a living wage, full time, and with benefits. Not going to happen.

 

So while college isn't for everyone ideally, college here is for everyone who wants to survive who doesn't have a family farm or business to inherit. Given the state of small business here, really inheriting the family farm is the only other sustainable option. Most of the mom and pop shops do not clear enough to support more than mom and pop and a couple of part time, minimum wage, no benefits workers. They simply aren't doing well enough to support a second family in the middle class. At the poverty level, yes, but not beyond.

 

It is a real problem, and a lot of kids know it but have zero help figuring out their path to college.

[Caroline]

I wonder if transiency has something to do with this. When I taught at an urban, high poverty high school, we had a transiency rate of close to 70% in a school year. Our graduation stats were abysmal. However, if you separated out our students who stayed in our school for four years, our graduation rate was 95%, and, if you took out special ed, our grad rate was 99%. The kids who had grown up in the neighborhood and stayed in the same school, even with its grad rate in the 50's, went to college. Every year we sent at least one kid to Duke or and Ivy or a military academy. We sent a few to our state flagships. We sent a lot to our local four year colleges. We sent a few to the HBCUs in our city. We sent a couple to the private women's college here. Those kids that we kept for four years got the information. We offered SAT and ACT prep classes for free. We had FAFSA nights. And, because those kids had stuck with us, their parents, grandparents, aunties, whoever they were living with trusted us to help and would come to our building to ask questions.

[SKL]

We can say that but is it really true? Isn't the heart of our national discontent that people are feeling locked out of opportunities and jobs that allow them to live a comfortable middle-class life? Isn't our national admiration of wealth (e.g. wealth=worth) a reflection of people's aspirations? They may not perceive themselves to be locked into a cycle of poverty, true. Who really wants to believe that they're poor, right? But that is, in essence, what has happened over the last 30 years. More and more people have been pushed down the economic ladder into near-poverty levels of income and job security. I have seen this attitude many, many times in my college readiness work from parents in rural areas. I, personally, think it's a defence mechanism. It often results in 'crab in a bucket' behavior tho, keeping kids from moving up for fear that they'll be left behind.

 

Yes, it's really true.  Coming from such a background I can say it's really true.

 

The only reason I went to higher education was because I aspired to solve problems for other people.  Not because I aspired to be "rich" and certainly not so I could live in a high COL area or work in a high-stress job.

 

There really is such a thing as being content with a simple life.  Thank goodness.

[creekland]

There really is such a thing as being content with a simple life.  Thank goodness.

 

Do you seriously think we Creeklanders live a stressed life?   :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  Or that all college grads need to move to a HCOL area and can't live a simple life?

 

For many people, stress comes when they can't pay the bills or have real needs and can't get them.

 

http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2015/02/money-stress.aspx

 

"While aspects of the U.S. economy have improved, money continues to be a top cause of stress for Americans, according to the new Stress in Americaâ„¢: Paying With Our Health survey released today by the American Psychological Association. According to the survey, parents, younger generations and those living in lower-income households report higher levels of stress than Americans overall, especially when it comes to stress about money.

“Regardless of the economic climate, money and finances have remained the top stressor since our survey began in 2007. Furthermore, this year’s survey shows that stress related to financial issues could have a significant impact on Americans’ health and well-being,†APA CEO and Executive Vice President Norman B. Anderson, PhD, said."

[creekland]

I wonder if transiency has something to do with this. 

 

I bet it does.  Many times it's the lower income folks who are getting evicted or having to move for various jobs.  Their kids go along, of course.

[regentrude]

There really is such a thing as being content with a simple life.  Thank goodness.

 

What is this "simple life" of which you speak?

 

I observe that my friends with college degrees and middle class incomes lead much simpler and lower stress lives than those who have to worry how to pay for an unexpected car repair or doctor's bill.

There is nothing "simple" about being poor.

Edited June 27, 2017 by regentrude

[Frances]

This was my job as a GEAR UP counselor. GEAR UP is still in place. It stands for Gaining Early Awareness and Readiness for Undergraduate Programs and is aimed at inner city schools, first gen college bound. While my other counseling friends bragged about what colleges they got their students into, I told them my job was to let families know that college was even an option.

 

I worked for the one in Los Angeles. I was a counselor.

 

One HUGE thing that happened while I was there is that CA changed their in-state tuition rules and undocumented could get in-state tuition if they had attended a CA high school. This helped tremendously since prior to that, even community college was completely out of the price range of most of our students.

 

I realize that is politically charged, but since we are discussing this on the main forum, I will say it anyway.

 

http://www.edpartnerships.org/gear-up

 

In NC, undocumented students still pay out of state tuition, and that makes it out of range for many.

I don't know if it still exists, but I worked one summer for a similar program called Upward Bound. It worked throughout high school with first generation, low-income students and included them spending at least one summer on a college campus, but not taking college classes. A few of my high school friends were involved in IA, and I taught math at one in CO. The students were of widely varied academic backgrounds and abilities, but I know that at least two of the ones from my summer ended up at elite schools.

[regentrude]

I wonder if transiency has something to do with this. When I taught at an urban, high poverty high school, we had a transiency rate of close to 70% in a school year.

 

I think different populations have different challenges. Here in the rural Midwest, transiency is not a problem. Families typically stay in their small towns for generations. The kids who want to break the cycle need to leave.

Rural poverty is a different beast.

[SKL]

I think maybe the reason we're talking past each other is that the studies are talking about people who are statistically poor / low income, which does not actually prove anything about their overall quality of life or their values.

[creekland]

I don't know if it still exists, but I worked one summer for a similar program called Upward Bound. It worked throughout high school with first generation, low-income students and included them spending at least one summer on a college campus, but not taking college classes. A few of my high school friends were involved in IA, and I taught math at one in CO. The students were of widely varied academic backgrounds and abilities, but I know that at least two of the ones from my summer ended up at elite schools.

 

Youngest son is working at a camp in FL this summer with kids from lower income areas.  They aren't on a college campus, but they recruited colleges kids (like him) to be the counselors because the main goal of the camp is to show kids there is "another way."  (I'm not talking religion - this is a secular camp.)  He's been relaying some interesting experiences - a very worthwhile summer for him both for his own education and for his campers.  He's glad he took the job even though it doesn't pay as much as another opportunity he had.  Working with youth is one direction he might take upon graduation - not high pay - but very rewarding in other areas.

[Sneezyone]

I don't know if it still exists, but I worked one summer for a similar program called Upward Bound. It worked throughout high school with first generation, low-income students and included them spending at least one summer on a college campus, but not taking college classes. A few of my high school friends were involved in IA, and I taught math at one in CO. The students were of widely varied academic backgrounds and abilities, but I know that at least two of the ones from my summer ended up at elite schools.

 

I'm not sure if Upward Bound still exists. It was funded as part of TRIO programs when I was in college, 20 odd years ago but I think it was folded in to GEAR UP. The two programs had very similar aims but GEAR UP deliberately pushed the assistance down to the middle school level. In GEAR UP, services had to start no later than middle school.

[Frances]

Do you seriously think we Creeklanders live a stressed life? :lol: :lol: :lol: Or that all college grads need to move to a HCOL area and can't live a simple life?

 

For many people, stress comes when they can't pay the bills or have real needs and can't get them.

 

http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2015/02/money-stress.aspx

 

"While aspects of the U.S. economy have improved, money continues to be a top cause of stress for Americans, according to the new Stress in Americaâ„¢: Paying With Our Health survey released today by the American Psychological Association. According to the survey, parents, younger generations and those living in lower-income households report higher levels of stress than Americans overall, especially when it comes to stress about money.

“Regardless of the economic climate, money and finances have remained the top stressor since our survey began in 2007. Furthermore, this year’s survey shows that stress related to financial issues could have a significant impact on Americans’ health and well-being,†APA CEO and Executive Vice President Norman B. Anderson, PhD, said."

Exactly! Our education gives us the ability to work less and not stress about money. And we even live on one of the coasts. The one thing SKL is saying that I might agree with is that very high educational attainment or certain careers can take you away from family. For our PhDs, we went away to top schools. My husband used to be in academia. Most are just happy to have a tenure track job at a good school, choosing to stay near family or live in a certain place isn't really an option. Now that he's in the medical field, we could move anywhere we wanted, but we like it here. My high classmates who didn't go to college or went very locally are more likely to live in or near the rural Midwest area where I grew up.

[creekland]

I think maybe the reason we're talking past each other is that the studies are talking about people who are statistically poor / low income, which does not actually prove anything about their overall quality of life or their values.

 

What we are talking about is trying to eliminate poverty (at least in pockets) where it doesn't need to be there - when there are other options that are statistically proven to be valid/working.

 

Low economic folks can be just as "happy" (or not) as wealthy folks.  Their kids have fun playing together, etc.  This is not a problem at all.  Not being able to pay the bills when those kids (or parents) get ill is.  We have welfare options in this country, but if folks are capable of doing better for themselves, seems quite logical to encourage them along that path.  It's not the path of doom.  It can be the path toward financial stability.  Middle class and wealthy folks understand this and already encourage their kids along that path (unless it isn't right for them).  The lower economic classes seem to think it's out of reach when that's not necessarily true.

[Matryoshka]

I think that's totally true, but mostly so along the coasts and in major metros. That's not so much the case elsewhere the country. College going rates vary dramatically by state and locality. In MA and DC, for example, more than half of adults have at least a bachelor's degree. In NM and NV it's under 30%. When you get beyond the major metros having a degree is still a big leg up.

 

New State-by-State College Attainment Numbers Show Progress Toward 2020 Goal

In my town (in MA), 36% of people have a Master's or PhD. 33% have a Bachelor's. Associate Degree or some college another 25%. Just high school barely registers as a slice on the pie.

 

In my kids' graduating class, four kids (out of 400) were listed as going directly to work rather than straight on to some kind of post-secondary education - even the Special Ed kids had some kind of a training program listed. One kid want to the military. Two kids took a gap year. I asked one of the gap year kids' mom what he was doing that year - going to France to learn how to be a sommelier.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Matryoshka

[Garga]

I was raised by my mom and dad with NO family around. It was just the three of us.

 

They had high school educations.

 

My dh was raised by his mom and dad with family a 5 hour's drive away. There were four of them.

 

His mom, dad, and brother had high school educations.

 

My grandparents made it to 5th or 8th grade.

His grandparents made it to 5th, 8th, and 12th grade.

 

The only person in the above group who went to college was my dh. And as far as I know, the vast majority of the family I have out west, and the vast majority of the family DH has 5 hours away, only have high school diplmoas.

 

My grandparents didn't go. His grandparents didn't go. My parents didn't go. His parents didn't go. I didn't go.

 

He went. DH got his master's degree about 10 years ago, even. He is most likely the highest educated member of both his and my entire families. And he was so even before the master's.

 

The only time I remember my parents talking to me about college was when I turned 16. "We have $5000 for you. You can use it on a car, or on going to college."

 

There had been no talk of college before then. I was a nerdy kid who haaaaated being in school. I had NO CLUE what the point of college was, if you weren't going to be a doctor or lawyer or scientist. I mean...what was the point? I honestly didn't know. Back then you could get entry level jobs and work your way up. That seemed like an awesome plan to me! Make money fresh out of high school!

 

I chose the $5000 to go toward a car so I could get a job.

 

I tell my kids all the time they're going to college.

 

But I have very, very foggy ideas of how to make that happen. I'm doing my best to check off boxes. Sometimes I check the wrong ones. I made my son take some SAT subject tests this year and I realize he really didn't need to and it was unnecessary stress on him. But I'm afraid I'll do this whole thing wrong.

 

I'm going to have to get DH to help out. I don't think he knows just how little I know and he thinks I know what I'm doing. I don't!

 

The posts about, "Well, once they're in college, they need people helping them with opportunities and how to get internships and blah, blah..." are terrifying to me. I have NO CLUE how to do any of that.

 

I spend a lot of time on these boards studying about college. I have sorted and saved a bunch of links to information. Tons of information.

 

I hope I do this thing right, but I honestly don't know what I'm doing. It's like walking through a cave system without any lights.

 

I have told the kids they're going to college, and somehow that'll happen. But I can't be sure I'll know how to guide them beyond that into internships and knowing what courses to take, etc. I'll study, study, study and do my best...but I have NO experience.

 

I can 100% see why people who have the smarts, but no no-how would have NO IDEA how to get into college. If I wasn't homeschooling, I'd be right there with them. My parents would have been ZERO help to me. Zero. Zero, zero! They didn't even help me with any high school stuff. I was completely on my own.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Garga

[Scarlett]

Part of the problem in this discussion is that as we have seen many times before it is really impossible to define 'poor'.  There are just too many variables. 

 

My sister has no degree and makes a LOT of money but she is constantly stressed about money. 

 

You just never know what is going on with people.  I do agree that many many people have an unrealistic view of what is necessary to live a life of dignity. 

 

[creekland]

I can 100% see why people who have the smarts, but no no-how would have NO IDEA how to get into college. If I wasn't homeschooling, I'd be right there with them. My parents would have been ZERO help to me. Zero. Zero, zero! They didn't even help me with any high school stuff. I was completely on my own.

 

FWIW Garga, I'm not that far away if you ever want to talk in person... running through ideas together.  After all, we're going to go see Wonder Woman later today based upon your review on the movie thread.  I don't mind exchanging advice for advice.  ;)

[SKL]

Well college, especially elite college, actually is not the answer to poverty in general.  Many people in poverty would not qualify for college and would not be able to benefit from it even if it were free.  The article was talking about people with strong academic aptitude to begin with, and also who had the drive to go to a better-than-average college (hence the studies comparing their results to others).  Do we know for a fact that those capable individuals are unsuccessful in life if they don't go to college?  Because that's not what I see.  Actually some of them are doing very well (millionaire next door types) without a college degree.  But mostly they apply their intelligence to wise planning and management and they are merely comfortable (qualitatively speaking) - which can also be said of many/most college grads.  If they were not the type to be content in the life they've chosen, they would have chosen differently.

[Matryoshka]

I bet it does. Many times it's the lower income folks who are getting evicted or having to move for various jobs. Their kids go along, of course.

I read the book 'Evicted' this year. It was eye-opening. I had no idea.

[creekland]

 If they were not the type to be content in the life they've chosen, they would have chosen differently.

 

And this is the basis for all your beliefs.  It doesn't matter how many people have given IRL examples otherwise.  You know what you know and darn if the facts from others will sway it.  Evidently my son is out working with kids at his camp for absolutely nothing.  They must already know there are other options they could choose - even if they don't have others in their lives to model it for them.  All those who have successfully changed their economic lives and given credit to mentors or people who helped them along the way when they didn't plan on that path or think they could succeed are incorrect too apparently.

 

FWIW, absolutely no one has said elite colleges are the solution to ending poverty in general.  (sigh)

[Garga]

FWIW Garga, I'm not that far away if you ever want to talk in person... running through ideas together. After all, we're going to go see Wonder Woman later today based upon your review on the movie thread. I don't mind exchanging advice for advice. ;)

Yes. I will be contacting you. Probably at the end of next year, when we're at the end of 10th grade. I have absolutely zero clues on how to "research a college." I'm a little fuzzy on what colleges are nearby or far away or how to do anything.

 

Up till now, I'm getting my ducks in a row for taking college prep classes for the kids and finding out what tests they should take. But a lot of the testing and nitty-gritty college stuff happens after 10th (I think?). And I have always had it in the back of my mind that I'd be contacting you. :). I'll treat for lunch.

 

After the SAT subject test frustration, I realize my son isn't going to any elite colleges. I had him take those because I hear that *some* non-elite colleges ask for them for their homeschool students. Sometimes. But some people say they don't. Blah. So, we jumped through the hoop and it was a frustrating few weeks of trying to do test prep.

 

My dh works at a community college and we could get ridiculous discounts IF my dh continues to work there. So...my plan is to try to figure out what sort of 4 year colleges my sons could attend (they have no ideas on what they want to study--none.) and make sure I have all my ducks in a row for them to attend those colleges. Because maybe they'll want to go straight to 4 year into some sort of program that won't take CC credits. Or maybe DH won't work at the CC and there will be no discount.

 

So we have to be ready for 4-year colleges, but the fall back plan is to go to their dad's community college until they have a better sense of what they want to do--taking care to see if CC classes will transfer to 4-years. So, even starting at the CC, we still have to have a plan of where to go for the 3rd and 4th year.

 

I'm rambling off topic now. I have these gossamer plans floating around in my head, but nothing concrete yet about how to implement them beyond attending the CC at a discount.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Garga

[creekland]

I read the book 'Evicted' this year. It was eye-opening. I had no idea.

 

I'll have to look it up...  I hear from kids at school when it's happening. I always feel for them.  Moving is one thing.  Being evicted is another.

[creekland]

Yes. I will be contacting you. Probably at the end of next year, when we're at the end of 10th grade. I have absolutely zero clues on how to "research a college." I'm a little fuzzy on what colleges are nearby or far away or how to do anything.

 

Up till now, I'm getting my ducks in a row for taking college prep classes for the kids and finding out what tests they should take. But a lot of the testing and nitty-gritty college stuff happens after 10th (I think?). And I have always had it in the back of my mind that I'd be contacting you. :). I'll treat for lunch.

 

After the SAT subject test frustrating, I realize my son isn't going to any elite colleges. And my dh works at a community college and we could get ridiculous discounts IF my dh continues to work there.

 

So...my plan is to try to figure out what sort of 4 year colleges my sons could attend (they have no ideas on what they want to study--none.) and make sure I have all my ducks in a row for them to attend those college. But the fall back plan is to go to their dad's community college until they have a better sense of what they want to do--taking care to see if CC classes will transfer to 4-years. So, even starting at the CC, we have to have a plan of where to go for the 3rd and 4th year.

 

I'm rambling off topic now. I have these gossamer plans, but nothing concrete yet about how to implement them beyond the CC. That would be easy to implement.

 

FWIW, VERY few 9th graders know what they want to study.  Just tell them to keep an open mind as they're doing all the usual subjects and if anything else interesting comes along.  Sometimes 2 year programs end up being the best.  It all depends upon the student.  Keep them on a 4 year track to not limit their options, but in your own mind, remember what you are looking for is the right path for them.  Statistics don't apply to the individual.  ;)  (But I'd still encourage post high school education of some sort.)

[Scarlett]

Yes. I will be contacting you. Probably at the end of next year, when we're at the end of 10th grade. I have absolutely zero clues on how to "research a college." I'm a little fuzzy on what colleges are nearby or far away or how to do anything.

 

Up till now, I'm getting my ducks in a row for taking college prep classes for the kids and finding out what tests they should take. But a lot of the testing and nitty-gritty college stuff happens after 10th (I think?). And I have always had it in the back of my mind that I'd be contacting you. :). I'll treat for lunch.

 

After the SAT subject test frustrating, I realize my son isn't going to any elite colleges. And my dh works at a community college and we could get ridiculous discounts IF my dh continues to work there.

 

So...my plan is to try to figure out what sort of 4 year colleges my sons could attend (they have no ideas on what they want to study--none.) and make sure I have all my ducks in a row for them to attend those college. But the fall back plan is to go to their dad's community college until they have a better sense of what they want to do--taking care to see if CC classes will transfer to 4-years. So, even starting at the CC, we have to have a plan of where to go for the 3rd and 4th year.

 

I'm rambling off topic now. I have these gossamer plans, but nothing concrete yet about how to implement them beyond the CC. That would be easy to implement.

 

 

My son will be a senior and he also did not know what he wanted to do for a living.  Zero idea.  This is where it is important to know your kid and know their strengths and how to gently guide them. When he was a sophmore I took him for a tour at the Vo-tech and he was able to see a few things he knew he didn't want to do (cooking, nursing, machinist)  I felt sure he could easily do the AutoCad program.  I told him to try it.  It is a dual enrollment program and gets him out of 3 high school courses per semester..so he really had nothing to lose.  Well, from day one he LOVED It.  Still does.  Just being in the program is giving him a lot of exposure to colleges and jobs and so he has more of a clue what all is involved. 

 

He still doesn't know if he wants to go on to college.  Even loving AutoCAD he isn't sure he would love doing engineering.  He keeps waffling back and forth between wanting to go to college as soon as he graduates high school/Votech and wanting to go straight to work. 

 

So anyway, I am a big fan of the VoTech programs. A lot of CC have the same set up...they can dual enroll and have a 2 year degree by the time they graduate high school.  If your dh works there I am sure you can get a lot of help with how to proceed next.

[FaithManor]

I think different populations have different challenges. Here in the rural Midwest, transiency is not a problem. Families typically stay in their small towns for generations. The kids who want to break the cycle need to leave.

Rural poverty is a different beast.

Absolutely agreed. In our rural area, having once been the king of the automotive industry, parents commuted to the city to work for one of the big three and made good bucks and benefits doing it, or worked slightly more locally at subsidiary parts manufacturers and other kinds of support businesses for the car industry. Between automotive and agriculture, it accounted for more than 75% of all employment - some counties even more - in the region.

 

And then off shoring, and moving factories overseas.

 

The mindset of these families was that mom and dad made big bucks on a high school education, and for some, even less than that because if Pa taught you to weld like a pro, you could often leave high school at 17 and go work for the big three. Unions protected your jobs, it was a for life thing with a lot of people retiring on big pensions at 50-55 years of age. Not a bad life. Not a bad life at all. Very well into the middle class, all the needs, many wants provided, good health insurance, low deductibles, ah.....the good life. So they always encouraged their kids to the same, and even seriously pooped on the idea of doing anything else. Even as the jobs were drying up and the handwriting was on the wall, they didn't shift their perspective always assuming even if everyone else's kid didn't land that plum factory job, their kid most certainly would.

 

On top of that, the automotive and industry related jobs that remained were now tech oriented. One cannot get a job welding without a two year welding engineering degree in which one has been certified in more than one computer language because everything is computer guided now. This means college pre-calc, physics, metallurgy, more than one semester of comp sci, certification exams, calc 1, introduction to mechanical engineering, gen ed coursework, and an internship. Kids who were never pushed towards the college prep path end up graduating well behind being able to start the program. They end up in pre-algebra, remedial English, college reading, physics for non majors in order to prepare for regular physics, etc. These kids end up paying for two or three semesters full time community college - and funding for that has dropped in this state so a serious number of these middle class kids will end up with student loans for this remedial coursework - in order to even begin the two year program. Many others are similar. And while say Solar Contracting is really growing in the region, Michigan has no distinct program for it so high school grads who want to get into it have to take coursework and exams to get a general contracting license, and then self study for the California solar licensing exam, then fly to Cali to take the test. Many other things like this.

 

It was simply a case of not seeing "the forest through the trees", and though the very clear indicators were there that this generation and the next would not have the set up that the Baby Boomers and some of Gen X had, there was no shift in perspective on education and job training. By the time this rural area heard, "Houston We Have A Problem", it was dire straits for their own kids.

 

This has lead to a "the government better fix this mentality", and for some, a practical reveling in their kids living in poverty, like it is some sort of badge of honor. After all, it isn't their fault. The government should have fixed NAFTA. The government should have forced the jobs to come back. Etc, etc. Meanwhile, the jobs that are here are getting more and more techie from administrative assistants who are required to be Microsoft Certified, to the print place requiring everyone to have a two year computer hardware servicing degree from the decent community college, to practical nursing jobs being eliminated and everyone being forced to get an ADN or BSRN because medicine has also become more technical, more complicated, etc.

 

In agriculture, while it produces nearly 35% of county revenue at this point, it isn't an avenue to financial stability except for the kid who is actually going to inherit the family farm. The work is always part time with no benefits except for the owners and his/her family members, always minimum wage, and even the few who work for a very long time and earn the trust of the farmer, the best they can get is managing a dairy herd full time for $12.00 an hour and still no health insurance. If you don't know anything about managing a dairy herd, or a beef herd, let me just say that it is physically hard work that many men and women cannot continue doing into their 50's, and it is dangerous to as a spooked cow or angry steer is bad thing to be dealing with. Family farms have a LOT of exemptions here too which means fewer protections for the workers. It is something that any non farm owner or heir should NOT consider doing as a career unless they have a BS degree in AG Science from MSU in which case the huge, corporate farms will hire at a great wage and benefit package. For kids raised on a farm here who love agriculture but also worry about the financial viability of mom and pop's business, this is a popular program for them to pursue. Many also do not remain in state afterward as lucrative farms and ranches out west will hire them for more money and better benefits than Michiganders will due to the continued economic issues in the state.

 

Young people are leaving. We are experiencing a crazy level of "brain drain". Many statisticians have predicted this tri-county area to be a ghost town kind of situation ten years from now with corporate farms buying up all of the family owned ones as the next generation finally figures out that they, ma, and pa didn't wake up when the alarm went off, and have to leave for greener pastures.

 

On average though, one thing that is seen is that even though I view our county PS's as by in large, TOTAL CRAP, for the most part, the college bound kids, the ones that took the hardest coursework the school offered, commuted to the good community college for a DE class or two, etc. and the lifelong 4H kids, Boy Scouts that earn Eagle, are doing well. They are making it. They seem to come from families with a plan, and have been exposed to enough reality to be making reasonable goals and charting out paths to those goals. Some will have a bit of a circuitous route, but they will get there. They also are a demographic of young workers who will NOT be staying in the area. The kids who didn't go college prep, didn't do DE, didn't take an AP, don't have a plan, and aren't going to achieve two years of post high school trade or college education,  are pretty much going directly into poverty and not moving up. These families are very anti-education ( a subject for another thread), and for whatever reason despite the evidence staring them in the face, they remain that way and as their children and grandchildren are coming along, nothing changes. It is kind of bizarre to me, but I readily recognize that I had the privilege of coming from two parents who were highly motivated, highly intelligent themselves, pro-education though neither one of them attended college (my dad aced his military exams and went directly into the Air Force as a Nuclear Missile Technician, and my mom graduated from a tracked high school in which with four years of high end Home Economics, Fashion Design, and Catering landed her an offer from Butterick Pattern Company as a designer straight out of high school). So my sibs and I were encouraged to have a serious, workable plan for our education/careers once we exited 8th grade. Since college prep opened the most doors, that's the route we went with supportive parents guiding us along the way.

 

i will say this. Even though it probably isn't the best topic for this thread, but somewhat relevant, I do think that a tracked high school like my mom had would be a great improvement here. In her high school, one could "major" in something over the four years. There were definitely paths for jumping tracks if one felt they'd picked one that was not a good fit, but the tracks were really, super cool, very innovative, and the academics were integrated into the coursework such that my mom had amazing English skills but it wasn't so much from four years of stand alone English as it was all of the writing and documenting she had to do for her home ec classes. She new a tremendous amount of basic geometry and algebra from the architectural portion of the curriculum in which she learned to make housing blueprints, or from the pattern design classes. She learned tremendous medical, biological, and nutrition science through the health and nutrition portion of the curriculum. There was enough of all of the basics of high school integrated into the coursework that she graduated with just as many credits as one would have today on an academic, college prep path. Foreign language is the only thing she didn't get. Teachers were given teaching licenses provisionally - supervised teaching for a year by the principal and other licensed teachers - who did not have licenses but brought specific, subject matter expertise to the school. Some of her teachers were doing 35 a week in their career of choice, and 15 at the school. Kind of a best of both worlds situation.

 

For mom, she learns best visually and applied. If you had stuck her in high school geometry, she would have been lost. But teach it to her through pattern design and architecture? No problem. She quickly absorbed that, and became a pro.

 

We need more of this, way more, as in we would be well served if a high percentage of our high schools were like this. I think many teens would be much more motivated to learn, investigate, and achieve goals if they had more applied work, and greater class variety from which to choose. The other option would be to fix middle school so it isn't "spinning wheels" then  let them out at 16 if they do not want to be on the DE/AP college track so they can head to trade school early. What we have now just isn't working, and it perpetuates he problem.

 

I see glimpses of change though. Some young people are waking up. They see that they will live in poverty if they stay, that graduating high school only will keep them in poverty, that trades may be a way to go but it is a lot more technical and still going to require extensive post high school coursework and apprenticeship, that college often opens up doors of employment that would otherwise remain closed (some are seeing that in addition to trade licensing they should also have a two year business degree just in order to truly understand business law, finance, etc.), and that mom and pop's business probably isn't going to be a viable way for them to earn a middle class living. It is just so sad that the schools really are just kind of oozing along, not really getting on board helping these kids plan this out, not giving them the leg up they need with the right kind of coursework, at the right level of rigor, with the right level of assistance to be successful. Mostly it is so often "the same old same old" with a tweak here or there to make it meet some new state requirement but without changing the essence in any fundamental way. So I feel like my kids' generation, and the next one coming up, is going to have to fight SOOOOOO much harder to claw their way up than dh and I ever have. This is one reason we are so committed to helping out kids get through their degrees with limited debt, and to being hands on in the development of solid plans for their career futures. It also the reason I am re-entering the work force.

 

Anyway, LOL, lots of rambling!

[Library Momma]

In my town (in MA), 36% of people have a Master's or PhD. 33% have a Bachelor's. Associate Degree or some college another 25%. Just high school barely registers as a slice on the pie.

 

In my kids' graduating class, four kids (out of 400) were listed as going directly to work rather than straight on to some kind of post-secondary education - even the Special Ed kids had some kind of a training program listed. One kid want to the military. Two kids took a gap year. I asked one of the gap year kids' mom what he was doing that year - going to France to learn how to be a sommelier.

 

 

Schools here are very similar with graduating classes from suburban public schools having 95-98% of graduates heading to some incarnation of college.  There is a very important factor though - vocational high schools. Students who are more interested in a trade or cosmetology or agri science or even maritime science aren't attending the local public schools.  Just like college though students need to apply and get accepted into these schools and their programs.  There are students who get left out because their parents don't understand how to play the "game" and it is a game.

 

 I have an acquaintance who had very little education and lives far below the poverty line.  She has a daughter who is very smart and she wanted her to attend a stem magnet school rather than her local poorly rated school.  She thought you could just show up at the magnet school a few days before classes and register her.  She had no idea that you had to apply in the previous March and get accepted.  I know for a fact that the middle school the daughter attended sent home quite a bit of information regarding high school choice.  they also had informational parent meetings and even a high school fair that parents and students could attend.  So why the disconnect?  I really wish she had mentioned this all to me before it was too late.  I'm sure when it comes to college unless the girl takes matters into her own hands she will be in the same boat.

[FaithManor]

Schools here are very similar with graduating classes from suburban public schools having 95-98% of graduates heading to some incarnation of college.  There is a very important factor though - vocational high schools. Students who are more interested in a trade or cosmetology or agri science or even maritime science aren't attending the local public schools.  Just like college though students need to apply and get accepted into these schools and their programs.  There are students who get left out because their parents don't understand how to play the "game" and it is a game.

 

 I have an acquaintance who had very little education and lives far below the poverty line.  She has a daughter who is very smart and she wanted her to attend a stem magnet school rather than her local poorly rated school.  She thought you could just show up at the magnet school a few days before classes and register her.  She had no idea that you had to apply in the previous March and get accepted.  I know for a fact that the middle school the daughter attended sent home quite a bit of information regarding high school choice.  they also had informational parent meetings and even a high school fair that parents and students could attend.  So why the disconnect?  I really wish she had mentioned this all to me before it was too late.  I'm sure when it comes to college unless the girl takes matters into her own hands she will be in the same boat.

I see this mindset here. Despite communication, it is totally overlooked, and assumptions are made. According to several friends who teach in the local district, families who come from backgrounds in which they kind of coasted along with whatever the school offered and didn't move beyond, have an expectation that the local school, the principal, the teacher should kind of handle everything for them. They think that if their kids expresses interested in x,y,z than the school should figure out how to make x,y,z happen. 

 

Just like the boy next door. He struggled to learn to read from the get- go...from a home where the mom and grandparents admitted they never read to him or kept books in the house. So every summer during elementary school, the teachers sent home a tote bag of books for them to read aloud to him or help him read throughout the summer. NOPE. "I ain't doin' that. Not my job. That's what I send him to school for!" Now he is an 8th grader and reading at only a 2nd grade level despite no LD's. It's the mindset. There is a subset of people who expect the school to do everything, and do not think they should have to make an effort. "My taxes pay for school, the school should take care of it. How dare they ask me to do their job!" While your friend may not be anything near that extreme, if she came from a background in which she never did anything educationally herself that wasn't pre-arranged by the school, teachers, and employer, etc., then she may not have the internal "ding, ding, ding I need to do something" that the rest of us have who were raised in more pro-active households or have chosen to be very pro-active in our kids' educations. The assuming thing always baffles me because it is hard for me to imagine not wanting to stay on top of things like this, but I am beginning to really embrace the truth that generational issues like these are very difficult cycles to break. Often only the most desperate ones who are just deeply, intrinsically determined to break the cycle are the ones that do.

 

So sad for the young lady. I hope things work out for her.

[Guest]

Thanks for adding, Quill. There is no doubt those who have BTDT have a much better insight and ability to put into words what many of us are trying to describe. I will have to check out that book. I've heard good things about it, but yours is the first time I've really paid attention TBH.

 

FWIW, if you're looking for a job at some point in your life, I wonder if there'd be any available in this area - helping kids see who they can be in time to make a difference in their lives. I suspect you'd be great at it. If I were to ever get unexpectedly wealthy (don't count on it as we don't play the lottery and tend to donate a bit of our "extra,") it's these types of things I'd want to see funded.

Thanks so much for saying this. I do have a notion of working FT after my homeschool career closes up shop, and something similar to this is one thing I have considered. I have considered getting a degree in Linguistics or SLP. I have thought especially about how some homeschool populations are on a trajectory that isn't especially prosperous, especially where there are LDs. I would like to do aomething about that...

[Guest]

Quill, I want to thank you for your posts in this thread. It is eye opening to hear your perspective, because for a person who grew up with an educated background, it is very hard to imagine these obstacles.

Even for immigrants who never heard of the ACT or SAT (waving hands here) and have no clue about this country's educational system, it is not that hard to figure out if they have grown up with a culture of education in their own, however different, country and a mindset of possibility - so it is important to hear experiences like yours to better understand.

Thank you for saying so. You are one of the people I admire (ok, sometimes envy...) because I think I have the mind to have a PhD. I would have liked to be in academia, too. That ship has most likely sailed, but I can still get further education. I just wish I had done it a lot of years ago when it made so much more sense.

[Matryoshka]

Schools here are very similar with graduating classes from suburban public schools having 95-98% of graduates heading to some incarnation of college.  There is a very important factor though - vocational high schools. Students who are more interested in a trade or cosmetology or agri science or even maritime science aren't attending the local public schools.  Just like college though students need to apply and get accepted into these schools and their programs.  There are students who get left out because their parents don't understand how to play the "game" and it is a game.

 

 I have an acquaintance who had very little education and lives far below the poverty line.  She has a daughter who is very smart and she wanted her to attend a stem magnet school rather than her local poorly rated school.  She thought you could just show up at the magnet school a few days before classes and register her.  She had no idea that you had to apply in the previous March and get accepted.  I know for a fact that the middle school the daughter attended sent home quite a bit of information regarding high school choice.  they also had informational parent meetings and even a high school fair that parents and students could attend.  So why the disconnect?  I really wish she had mentioned this all to me before it was too late.  I'm sure when it comes to college unless the girl takes matters into her own hands she will be in the same boat.

 

The high school here is a total pressure cooker.  A lot of the kids who end up doing DE are actually the kids who can't hack it.  All three of my dds tried the high school  Only one stayed and graduated.  A second lasted two years - and did well, but it was way upping her anxiety.  My third dd only lasted a couple of months.  Both did mostly DE after that - it was way lower stress.  

 

I know another mom in town whose dd dropped out (not a common thing here).  Actually, she just stopped going to school (actual truant school-refusal hooky-playing) and the school unenrolled her.    The mom was livid.  They said they'd sent a notice, but she was going through a divorce and it went into the ether somewhere.  The dd then got her GED and attended the CC.  Lower stress!

 

The tech schools aren't exactly a slouch either.  I have a friend whose dd attended tech school.  She took the robotics track, took AP Calc, and is now attending RPI in Cognitive Science or something.

 

It['s hard to live around here and not think "of course I'm going to college".  It's just what you do.

 

I know it's way different elsewhere. My grandparents were immigrants.  Neither had a college education.  But my grandfather was a great natural businessman (did an apprenticeship as a chef In Germany), and had a couple successful restaurants, as well as developing real estate.  He retired to a farm in the mountains of Tennessee to breed bulls at 40-something.  My mom was the first to go to college.  Her brother was not as academic and tried to be like his dad, but he did not have the natural business acumen.  He followed my grandparents to Tennessee.  It's like he became a hillbilly.  He actively discouraged his kids from going to college.  Told them it was a waste of money.  I think he didn't want his kids to be 'better' than he was.  My cousin helps him run a junkshop.

 

Having cousins in that area sure made me realize things aren't the same as here all over.

[DawnM]

Yes, but it's not all urban kids. Every program/grant is written to serve different populations of students. The feds actually work hard to encourage/fund programs that serve low-income and/or first-generation kids all over the country. Our grant was designed as a continuation of NEISP to find out whether the strategies we employed would work with different populations of kids/families.

 

Gotcha.  Yeah, it is really a great program.  Unfortunately, I had the worst boss I have ever had while working there.  She was great at writing Grants, getting things done, but her interpersonal skills with those she was overseeing.....oy!

[DawnM]

Thank you for saying so. You are one of the people I admire (ok, sometimes envy...) because I think I have the mind to have a PhD. I would have liked to be in academia, too. That ship has most likely sailed, but I can still get further education. I just wish I had done it a lot of years ago when it made so much more sense.

 

Not sailed at all.  Go for it!

[creekland]

Gotcha.  Yeah, it is really a great program.  Unfortunately, I had the worst boss I have ever had while working there.  She was great at writing Grants, getting things done, but her interpersonal skills with those she was overseeing.....oy!

 

I think my son has the same boss.   :lol:   He, and everyone else, were glad when she was less hands on after the campers started arriving - and that she isn't always at "their" camp.

[DawnM]

I think my son has the same boss.   :lol:   He, and everyone else, were glad when she was less hands on after the campers started arriving - and that she isn't always at "their" camp.

 

Was this your Covenant son?  Was the camp in NC?  My boys went to a camp where all the camp counselors were from Covenant. 

 

PS:  This has nothing to do with the boss situation, I am just curious.

[Sneezyone]

Gotcha.  Yeah, it is really a great program.  Unfortunately, I had the worst boss I have ever had while working there.  She was great at writing Grants, getting things done, but her interpersonal skills with those she was overseeing.....oy!

 

Yeah, we had a doozy of a principal investigator on our team too. She had the PhD tho and the rest of us only had BAs and MAs. For grant purposes, she was a necessary evil. Eventually, they sent me to the U to keep an eye on her. She was pissing off too many of the U admins. Good times...NOT!

Edited June 27, 2017 by Sneezyone

[DawnM]

Yeah, we had a doozy of a principal investigator on our team too. She had the PhD tho and the rest of us only had BAs and MAs. For grant purposes, she was a necessary evil. Eventually, they sent me to the U to keep an eye on her. She was pissing off too many of the U admins. Good times...NOT!

 

 

Honestly, I am all about not burning my bridges, but she is one person I really should have said something about.  Unfortunately, we were in a tight spot.  We were told if there was one more complaint about her, the entire funding would be lost and the grant would go away.  I don't know if that is true or not, but it did benefit the kids, so I just didn't say anything and got out when I could.

[StephanieZ]

Yes, it's really true.  Coming from such a background I can say it's really true.

 

The only reason I went to higher education was because I aspired to solve problems for other people.  Not because I aspired to be "rich" and certainly not so I could live in a high COL area or work in a high-stress job.

 

There really is such a thing as being content with a simple life.  Thank goodness.

 

Actually, I believe that there is a lot of solid data showing that lower level workers tend to experience *higher* levels of job related stress as well as over all higher levels of stress. 

 

Here is one lay-person-article that mentions some of that data. http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/14/health/stress-income-inequality/index.html

 

 

Google a bit, and you will find numerous similar articles, etc. 

 

I think it's simplistic (and silly, IMHO) to try to correlate lower paid jobs with lower stress. That might be the case in certain situations, such as when a optional-2nd-income-spouse takes a "easy" job to add a little income . . . I.e., the highly educated mom taking a library assistant job because it has nice hours and a friendly working environment. 

 

On the other hand, when you have a must-work-to-feed-my-kids parent taking a job, it's pretty darn likely that she's choose a "boss is a lunatic, clients are crazy, hours change every day, might get fired if I don't meet sales quota each month" job because 13/hr buys a lot more groceries than 10/hr . . . 

 

(Appropriate) Education earns you choices. Money buys you more choices. 

 

 

I believe that the idealization of "happy poor people" is one of the deceptions that those of us with more choices (and more money) use to give us comfort as we hold the reins politically and economically  . . . and keep driving our nation towards systems that keep education and money and power in the hands of the few, while not feeling guilty about the harm our systems do to those who, at the bottom of our economy, serve our nation's needs and support our own personal wealth. Reminds me a lot of the "happy slave" myths that were so popular for so long (and still appear from time to time, shockingly.)

 

Just my 2c.

[creekland]

Was this your Covenant son?  Was the camp in NC?  My boys went to a camp where all the camp counselors were from Covenant. 

 

PS:  This has nothing to do with the boss situation, I am just curious.

 

No.  It's my Eckerd boy and he's in FL this summer.  The camp has nothing to do with Eckerd.  They just recruited from there - a smart choice since Eckerd has a decent emphasis on "making your world a better place."  I suspect they recruited at other campuses too, of course.

[Joyofsixreboot]

I think different populations have different challenges. Here in the rural Midwest, transiency is not a problem. Families typically stay in their small towns for generations. The kids who want to break the cycle need to leave.

Rural poverty is a different beast.

This. Leaving=bad but there are few jobs out of the farming/low paying factory/service area. Yes the county seat has a few doctors and Llawyers and shop owners but not many. We don't need many. Picking up and moving is not really common though. I'm still here after all [emoji2] despite having a degree. Family trumped money for me. Which leads to this....though dh and I look better on paper than our lower class parents our behavior was formed by that. You can get out anytime you like, but you can never leave.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[FaithManor]

Actually, I believe that there is a lot of solid data showing that lower level workers tend to experience *higher* levels of job related stress as well as over all higher levels of stress. 

 

Here is one lay-person-article that mentions some of that data. http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/14/health/stress-income-inequality/index.html

 

 

Google a bit, and you will find numerous similar articles, etc. 

 

I think it's simplistic (and silly, IMHO) to try to correlate lower paid jobs with lower stress. That might be the case in certain situations, such as when a optional-2nd-income-spouse takes a "easy" job to add a little income . . . I.e., the highly educated mom taking a library assistant job because it has nice hours and a friendly working environment. 

 

On the other hand, when you have a must-work-to-feed-my-kids parent taking a job, it's pretty darn likely that she's choose a "boss is a lunatic, clients are crazy, hours change every day, might get fired if I don't meet sales quota each month" job because 13/hr buys a lot more groceries than 10/hr . . . 

 

(Appropriate) Education earns you choices. Money buys you more choices. 

 

 

I believe that the idealization of "happy poor people" is one of the deceptions that those of us with more choices (and more money) use to give us comfort as we hold the reins politically and economically  . . . and keep driving our nation towards systems that keep education and money and power in the hands of the few, while not feeling guilty about the harm our systems do to those who, at the bottom of our economy, serve our nation's needs and support our own personal wealth. Reminds me a lot of the "happy slave" myths that were so popular for so long (and still appear from time to time, shockingly.)

 

Just my 2c.

I agree 100%. And many of those lower paid jobs simply do not come with health insurance, or if they do, it is with the high deductibles and low employer paid portion that we hear about all the time. When you are afraid to take your kid to the doctor because you can't meet your deductible and can't pay the prescribed monthly payment, you have MAJOR high stress. When you make $100.00 too much to get medicaid and your kid can't read the blackboard at school but you can't afford eye exams and glasses...Happy poor is a rationalization the haves (Walmart and their employment practices comes to mind but there are many others as well) created to make them feel less responsibility to help the have-nots get a leg up in this world.

 

The safety net is just not there now for people to be realistically low stress and low income at the same time.

 

My mother talks about her childhood, being poor, and it is so obvious that she incurred extreme stress as a child from their financial situation even though her parents tried their best not to let it affect the kids. But there just isn't anyway to play that game. Kids aren't dumb. They are actually quite perceptive. I know kids now who are on free breakfast and lunch at school, and their lives are just very, very stressful. They don't have a lot of hope because their limited resources leaves them without exposure to opportunities that would help them see that they might be able to have a better future. They don't see that it might be attainable for them. This is probably one strong factor in generational poverty for certain. There are many factors for sure, but it seems that this would be one of them.

[teachermom2834]

My dh is just the last few years getting rolling in his career. He makes a good salary but there have been very stressful times and very long hours. Very stressful.

 

Early in our marriage we opted not to climb the corporate ladder and for me to stay at home and have a simple low stress life being happy living on less. That turned into dh working multiple jobs and not sure how we would pay bills or fix our car. Very stressful.

 

Being poor is hard- and expensive! Our life has always been stressful but stressful with a good income is WAY better!!

 

We bought into the "be poor but happy and family time focused" when dh dropped out of his PhD program and got a teaching certificate (in a state with really low teacher pay). It didn't work that way. Thankfully we had the cultural knowledge and he had the aptitude to get back on a better career track.

 

Not everyone needs to aspire to the top 1% but I'm not buying people choosing low paying jobs and being happy with that choice twenty years and a couple kids later.