Thx all. NM

[Supertechmom]

I married young and at times our dating was long distance and back before cell phones and texting. It wasn't difficult. I would say that if dating has become difficult, then perhaps it isn't right. Dating should be fun and easy. If there is drama and things to work on, I would say time to move on. I cant remember a time where i needed advice on our relationship during the dating years. Find somebody that makes your life easy and makes you the best you you can be. That's what dating is for. Not to find a relationship that requires work and insight and advice before marriage.

[Starr]

Did he go to church with her regularly when they were in the same town?

[Remudamom]

Unequal yoking pretty much sucks.

[gardenmom5]

I married young and at times our dating was long distance and back before cell phones and texting. It wasn't difficult. I would say that if dating has become difficult, then perhaps it isn't right. Dating should be fun and easy. If there is drama and things to work on, I would say time to move on. I cant remember a time where i needed advice on our relationship during the dating years. Find somebody that makes your life easy and makes you the best you you can be. That's what dating is for. Not to find a relationship that requires work and insight and advice before marriage.

 

this.  four dates with the same guy was a long term relationship for 2dd. she said she knew dsil was the one because she'd spent so much time with him, and was liking it.  they've been married for two years.

[Barb_]

Dating is different. People sometimes grow apart and that's ok. Not that young marriages can't work out, but when they do, just about all the time it is the female person who does most of the sacrificing to make a go of it.

 

There doesn't need to be a big reason to break things off. "It's not the right time" is reason enough.

[goldberry]

DD and her boyfriend are both intensely loyal people on a personal level.  Both us and the other parents are long term married from a young age.  Talking about marriage to her, I always stressed how you make it work, you are loyal to each other, you don't let minor things destroy your relationship, etc.  Looking back, I should have talked more about how BEFORE marriage your attitude should be so much different. We did talk about it, but we also had the "dating is serious" perspective, which I could have done better to mitigate.

 

I have seen a bit of what the OP is describing, the "make it work" mentality.  The guy is very nice, but I worry about their compatibility.  They are always "working through things".  There are certain areas I can see that she will ALWAYS be trying to help him understand her, and vice versa.  He wants to understand (which is a plus) and I hope that maybe he eventually comes to understand, but I don't think she has a grasp of how hard that is on a constant, every day level.  When I discuss it with her, the responses I get are "everyone has something negative, and he is this and that good in other ways, and I really value those things".  

 

I talked to a friend recently about it, and she said that it's incredibly hard even for mature, experienced women to break up with a man who is a good man, but just not compatible enough.  She said she could imagine how hard it would be for a young woman, who sees other guys cheating, lying, abusing, etc. Add into that the intensely loyal personality trait, and I don't see DD doing it.  

 

Ugh.  Adult parenting... 

[eternalsummer]

Chosing someone because they are also a Christian guarantees nothing. Being in keeping with scripture guarantees nothing. My beliefs are totally different from what they were 15 years ago, and if my marriage had been based upon both being Christians, it may not have survived the changes. Beliefs are not static. I think what is worse in any marriage is dogmatic views about the faith of one's partner. Suppose the daughter breaks up with Nice Not-A-Christian Guy and finds someone else who claims to be a Christian and does seem like one. But wait! What if DD is a YEC, while New Christian Guy is Old Earth? Or maybe DD is a Methodist, but New Christian Guy is Catholic? What I'm saying is, now you've made some judgement about guy has to claim Christianity, but it guarantees nothing, including the future forms that faith may take.

 

Should a Believer divorce a mate who has "fallen away"?

 

I think it is better to objectively lay out possible pitfalls, but I personally would keep the Bible out of it. In the same way that I would point out that Nice Guy seems financially inept, I would also point out potential problems with faith differences.

 

My DD is Protestant and her boyfriend is Catholic and we have had many discussions about how this might play out in the future. But those are her hurdles to clear with her mate. In the family culture in which I grew up, he would be considered "not a Real Christian."

 

 

I agree with you in terms of practicality, Quill, but I think Mercy is speaking not of what would make more sense or be more practical, but of what she believes the Bible to say specifically regarding this sort of situation; she feels that she is speaking not to or about another random person, but to a member of her faith, and that there are specific requirements of that faith concerning this situation which cannot be disregarded.

 

I have found that it is very difficult to argue with religious people about things they think are required by their religion.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

I personally would find it very difficult to be married to someone who is not a Christian. I know many fine funny intelligent moral people who are not Christians. But my faith informs everything I do. It has everything to do with my thinking even if my actions might be the same as someone who doesn't share that thinking. Someone who is not a Christian just couldn't understand that. So actually I guess it's the other way- someone who was not a Christian would have a hard time being married to me. And that is why I advise my kids to not even date someone doesn't share their faith.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Katy]

It sounds like if nothing else he is good for this stage of life. 

 

My advice for evaluating relationships:  How much do they have in common?  How is their worldview similar?  What do they want out of life?  If he's going to stay in the military long term, does she have a good grasp on how difficult that life would be for her? 

 

Absolute deal breakers: abuse and/or addiction, and wanting different things out of life.  Also lack of emotional support and compassion.

 

A sign she should move forward:  they are emotionally healthy together.  They make each other's lives better instead of worse.  It is easy for them to be honest and vulnerable with the other because they feel safe. She knows he is a good person - he's not perfect and he makes mistakes, but she knows he always tries to do his best and he will own up to his mistakes.  She's truly good with making her whole life about what the military decides for them.

 

Before I married I had a serious boyfriend who wasn't Christian.  I couldn't tell how that would be a deal breaker until there was a death in his family that meant I spent a great deal of time watching him interact with his family. That time showed me he lacked maturity and kindness, and he'd only been treating me so well because he had me on a pedestal. He didn't have the moral foundations in place so I could show him the problem, let alone help him fix it.  Retrospectively, I think he had a fair amount of narcissism, but I was too young to recognize it at the time.  She should make sure she sees him through some hard times before she agrees to marry him.

[Scarlett]

I have been thinking about this for days.....the thing about marrying someone outside ones faith.....sure people sometimes chamge. My good friend's first husband did....it was a nightmare for her. But in the end, even though he forced the end of the marriage, she chose him because of her conviction. She did her part to choose the way she felt was proper. If she had chosen someone outside her faith then she would have felt like she was responsible for the mismatch.

 

There are so many ways for a marriage to go bad....why start out in the negative by being unevenly yoked.

[Scarlett]

I also,like this list of compatibility

 

1) religion

2) culture

3) intelligence

4) energy level

5) introvert/extrovert

[eternalsummer]

It sounds like if nothing else he is good for this stage of life. 

 

My advice for evaluating relationships:  How much do they have in common?  How is their worldview similar?  What do they want out of life?  If he's going to stay in the military long term, does she have a good grasp on how difficult that life would be for her? 

 

Absolute deal breakers: abuse and/or addiction, and wanting different things out of life.  Also lack of emotional support and compassion.

 

A sign she should move forward:  they are emotionally healthy together.  They make each other's lives better instead of worse.  It is easy for them to be honest and vulnerable with the other because they feel safe. She knows he is a good person - he's not perfect and he makes mistakes, but she knows he always tries to do his best and he will own up to his mistakes.  She's truly good with making her whole life about what the military decides for them.

 

Before I married I had a serious boyfriend who wasn't Christian.  I couldn't tell how that would be a deal breaker until there was a death in his family that meant I spent a great deal of time watching him interact with his family. That time showed me he lacked maturity and kindness, and he'd only been treating me so well because he had me on a pedestal. He didn't have the moral foundations in place so I could show him the problem, let alone help him fix it.  Retrospectively, I think he had a fair amount of narcissism, but I was too young to recognize it at the time.  She should make sure she sees him through some hard times before she agrees to marry him.

 

I don't mean to pick on you specifically, because I've read this sentiment about 100 times in this thread couched in different ways, but do you really think that his lack of maturity and kindness was because he was not Christian?  Are the two related?

 

 

[eternalsummer]

I also find it very strange that it would be maybe okay to marry a non-Christian as long as the kids will be allowed to go to church with the Christian parent.  

 

Why would someone who believes Christianity is false need to be willing to subject their children to the falsehood in order to be a good husband/wife?  Why is it not the Christian spouse who is required to let the children come to their own religious conclusions and not impose on them the non-shared religion?

[Guest]

I agree with you in terms of practicality, Quill, but I think Mercy is speaking not of what would make more sense or be more practical, but of what she believes the Bible to say specifically regarding this sort of situation; she feels that she is speaking not to or about another random person, but to a member of her faith, and that there are specific requirements of that faith concerning this situation which cannot be disregarded.

 

I have found that it is very difficult to argue with religious people about things they think are required by their religion.

Yeah, I know this. I grew up with people who have a very intense, all-encompasing concept of faith. (Choosing my words carefully, so as not to offend the devout.) My mother won't buy a desk at a yard sale if she thinks God is "telling" her not to, by way of making it difficult to get the desk home. (True example.) So I know that, with such a belief system, evaluating some situation in practical terms, not by what is written in the Bible, is wrong/dangerous.

[Guest]

I also find it very strange that it would be maybe okay to marry a non-Christian as long as the kids will be allowed to go to church with the Christian parent.

 

Why would someone who believes Christianity is false need to be willing to subject their children to the falsehood in order to be a good husband/wife? Why is it not the Christian spouse who is required to let the children come to their own religious conclusions and not impose on them the non-shared religion?

It's a good question, but I imagine this is where it would be an unworkable situation. Kind of the difference between being an agnostic vs. a "hard" atheist. So, let's say Joe is not himself a Christian, but he is agnostic and doesn't presume that he has figured out The Correct Answer. His wife/gf says it is important to her to raise the kids with Christian faith. He isn't threatened by that, though he has not chosen that for himself, so that is why the relationship is workable.

 

But I imagine it's also going to matter if the Christian is the more dogmatic one, but I guess in such a case, they will probably not get married in the first place because she will heed the scripture about unequally yoked. A person who is hostile towards the faith is probably not going to marry someone like this in the first place, because she will say things all the time that make no sense to him.

 

The OP should realize that the outcome could also eventually be that she would leave the faith; it's not just that he may become a Christian. If this happens, it doesn't mean it's his fault, that he corrupted her.

[J-rap]

I don't mean to pick on you specifically, because I've read this sentiment about 100 times in this thread couched in different ways, but do you really think that his lack of maturity and kindness was because he was not Christian?  Are the two related?

 

I liked her thread, but I assumed she meant the statement you are referring to as separate from the faith, and unrelated.  But otherwise -- yeah, this really bugs me too, and more and more I think this is kind of a weird correlation leftover, I think, from my parents' generation (who are almost 90) where the word "Christian" represented not even necessarily a true faith but just a general way of living.  

[Chris in VA]

I also find it very strange that it would be maybe okay to marry a non-Christian as long as the kids will be allowed to go to church with the Christian parent.  

 

Why would someone who believes Christianity is false need to be willing to subject their children to the falsehood in order to be a good husband/wife?  Why is it not the Christian spouse who is required to let the children come to their own religious conclusions and not impose on them the non-shared religion?

Such a good thing to think about.

 

I can't site sources, so I hesitate to throw this out there, but...

I know of research that shows that kids who grow up exposed to multiple religions where the family doesn't "pick one," tend to pick none when they are adult. If this is true (and I do believe I'm remembering it correctly), then wouldn't it be more "biasing" to do this than to have a kid raised in one type of religion and then be "allowed" as an adult to pick? 

(LOL--if you understood that totally unclear question, more power to ya.) 

[Scarlett]

Such a good thing to think about.

 

I can't site sources, so I hesitate to throw this out there, but...

I know of research that shows that kids who grow up exposed to multiple religions where the family doesn't "pick one," tend to pick none when they are adult. If this is true (and I do believe I'm remembering it correctly), then wouldn't it be more "biasing" to do this than to have a kid raised in one type of religion and then be "allowed" as an adult to pick? 

(LOL--if you understood that totally unclear question, more power to ya.) 

 

 

Yes. I understand you completely.   Yes it would. 

 

I believe I have an obligation to teach my son what I believe to be true about everything.  So if two people opposed in belief tried this their kids would be pulled in two. 

 

My friend whose husband decided to turn against their faith after they had two children together....he became very unreasonable.  I've seen other families where one parent leaves the faith and the rest of the family continues on without interference.  Even 'without interference' is not easy though because the daily life is often disconnected.

[Scarlett]

I am reminded of an old country song.....it talks about a religious woman and a partying type man....who run off together....and the last line the singer says, 'I often wonder, who converted whom?'

 

https://www.musixmatch.com/lyrics/Tom-T-Hall/The-Little-Lady-Preacher

Edited June 7, 2017 by Scarlett

[sassenach]

I also,like this list of compatibility

 

1) religion

2) culture

3) intelligence

4) energy level

5) introvert/extrovert

I think it was you who posted an article some time ago about those 5 factors? Do you remember?

 

Maybe it wasn't, but I think the point of the article was that those factors tend to not change about a person over time. At the time it was posted, I was coming to grips with my dh's personality changes due to a major injury and the chronic pain that followed it. He went from being way more extroverted than myself to being almost reclusive. He still is now much more introverted than me and I still have to work through my own feelings of isolation as a result.

 

All that to say, almost everything can change about a person. That's why the Christian marriage covenant is not based on anything having to do with the person themselves, and everything to do with imaging Christ and the church. If my marriage was based on that list, 3 out of 5 points would have failed us. (I know you weren't saying to base a marriage on the list- this is just my musing about trying to nail compatibility down to any list.)

[Scarlett]

I think it was you who posted an article some time ago about those 5 factors? Do you remember?

 

Maybe it wasn't, but I think the point of the article was that those factors tend to not change about a person over time. At the time it was posted, I was coming to grips with my dh's personality changes due to a major injury and the chronic pain that followed it. He went from being way more extroverted than myself to being almost reclusive. He still is now much more introverted than me and I still have to work through my own feelings of isolation as a result.

 

All that to say, almost everything can change about a person. That's why the Christian marriage covenant is not based on anything having to do with the person themselves, and everything to do with imaging Christ and the church. If my marriage was based on that list, 3 out of 5 points would have failed us. (I know you weren't saying to base a marriage on the list- this is just my musing about trying to nail compatibility down to any list.)

 

 

Yes it was me I am sure.  I had forgotten the point that these factors tend to not change over time.  Obviously, that is not an absolute.....but I think starting out as strong as you can with the big things helps sustain you (collective you) when something goes wrong (like chronic illness that reduces energy level etc)

[Katy]

I don't mean to pick on you specifically, because I've read this sentiment about 100 times in this thread couched in different ways, but do you really think that his lack of maturity and kindness was because he was not Christian?  Are the two related?

 

Sometimes no, but in his particular case, they were related.  He'd rejected his parents' nominal Catholic faith because it inconvenienced him and he didn't want any sort of moral accountability.  I didn't realize that until we were close to breaking up, and because I was young and my moral development was intricately linked to my faith, I didn't know how to describe to him that the way he was treating certain members of his family wasn't ethical.  I could say, "Hey, the way you talked to your mother at your grandfather's funeral was atrocious and I want to know how you can possibly think that was okay?"  I was raised to fear God and to honor my parents even when I disagreed with them.  This boy was being needlessly cruel, and the only way I understood to point that out were the bible verses ringing in my head along with the thought that this was wrong, wrong, wrong, and if he would treat his own mother this way how will he be treating me the moment he's angry at me?

 

I know atheists who became so after very serious deliberation and moral considerations.  They made logical and ethical decisions to reject God, often because of religious abuses they experienced.  In the case of those people they are making the most moral choice in their lives. The point is, they have had the maturity and kindness to think this through, not to reject their parents religion not for logical reasons but because they think sin is too fun, or worse, that they have no sense of empathy or remorse.  I haven't read many of Penn Jillette's books (of Penn & Teller), but I'd be willing to debate most people that he is more moral and ethical and compassionate than my last pastor.

 

Perhaps the primary difference could best be described in secular terms as cultural.  It's hard to sum up the concept of not marrying someone who hasn't carefully examined the places where faith and morals and empathy collide. IME it is a problem for religious young people, whose whole concept of life purpose revolves around God's plan to truly share purposes with someone who rejects the very concept.  It may make very little difference when life is good, but when we have life's inevitable downs, it poses a huge problem.  Primarily because what will comfort one will confuse and repel the other.

[MercyA]

Yeah, I know this. I grew up with people who have a very intense, all-encompasing concept of faith. (Choosing my words carefully, so as not to offend the devout.) My mother won't buy a desk at a yard sale if she thinks God is "telling" her not to, by way of making it difficult to get the desk home. (True example.) So I know that, with such a belief system, evaluating some situation in practical terms, not by what is written in the Bible, is wrong/dangerous.

 

I think you're comparing apples and oranges here, though. There's no Scriptural prohibition against buying a difficult-to-get-home desk at a garage sale. (Thank goodness!!!)  :)

 

Obviously, people can twist Scripture in all kinds of ways, but quite a lot of it is very straightforward. It puzzles me that someone who professes faith would not want or be willing to obey it.

Edited June 7, 2017 by MercyA

[Jean in Newcastle]

When I talk about my faith informing everything I do, I am not talking about things like garage sales.  I'm talking about my attitudes, my thoughts and worldview, which then of course moderate or spur my actions.  With something like a garage sale, my faith might influence my decision with regard to ethical garage sale behavior or perhaps the purpose I had for the desk, but other than that, it would simply be a transaction that is neutral. 

[Frances]

I think you're comparing apples and oranges here, though. There's no Scriptural prohibition against buying a difficult-to-get-home desk at a garage sale. (Thank goodness!!!) :)

 

Obviously, people can twist Scripture in all kinds of ways, but quite a lot of it is very straightforward. It puzzles me that someone who professes faith would not want or be willing to obey it.

I have to say that I'm very surprised by your puzzlement. Every day in the news I see numerous examples of people professing faith and purposely acting very much against the scriptures and then using their religion to justify their behaviors. Edited June 7, 2017 by Frances

[Guest]

I think you're comparing apples and oranges here, though. There's no Scriptural prohibition against buying a difficult-to-get-home desk at a garage sale. (Thank goodness!!!) :)

 

Obviously, people can twist Scripture in all kinds of ways, but quite a lot of it is very straightforward. It puzzles me that someone who professes faith would not want or be willing to obey it.

Well...that's not what I mean. I mean this kind of thinking:

 

"i really want to buy that desk, Lord, and it is only $10 and would be so handy, but it won't fit in my car and I don't have the physical ability to lift it either. Lord, if you want me to have the desk, provide a way for me to get the desk home..." (A few hours pass) "Well, Lord, Jim Bob and Billy Joe are not answering their phones and nobody has shown up with a truck, so I guess You're telling me I shouldn't buy the desk."

 

IME, it is only a certain type of believer who thinks this way. A person who thinks God is orchestrating whether or not you can buy a desk at a yardsale is obviously going to follow what she believes the Bible says about marrying someone.

 

What I'm saying is that, even when I was devout, I still viewed most everyday situations as not something God does or cares about. I don't think God cares whether I buy a desk or not. I don't think God cares whether or not I get a convenient parking spot when I go shopping. I don't think God causes me to take a wrong turn because a horrific car accident is due to happen on the road I was supposed to be on, therefore sparing me from being in the horrific accident myself. (Poor chump who actually was IN the accident. Must not have prayed today.) Even when I was devout, I did not buy this. But a Believer in my family does believe all of these things and more.

[MercyA]

Well...that's not what I mean. I mean this kind of thinking:

 

Thanks for the expansion on your thoughts, Quill!

[MercyA]

I have to say that I'm very surprised by your puzzlement. Every day in the news I see numerous examples of people professing faith and purposely acting very much against the scriptures and then using their religion to justify their behaviors.

 

I can't disagree with you there. I did say puzzled, not surprised. I am deeply disturbed by how such people harm the cause of Christ. No doubt that is why Jesus had such strong words for hypocrites:

 

“Woe to you...hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence...You are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness...Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?"

 

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’"

[Jean in Newcastle]

To me it is the difference between interacting with someone on a more superficial level and interacting with them on a deep philosophical/ soul level.  I want to be able to interact with my mate on a deep level even if we do of course chat about the garbage pickup and other superficial stuff as well. 

[eternalsummer]

And non-Christians are also subject to moral authority (that is, they can believe in Right and Wrong).  Religion is inconvenient if you don't believe it. If you do believe it, I don't see why you would risk the fires of hell (or whatever) for convenience, but if you don't believe it, attending church is probably just a massive waste of time.  

[eternalsummer]

I think a lot of the moral imperatives of Christianity (and most religions, for that matter) are pretty universal - don't lie, don't cheat, don't steal, be kind to other people, respect your parents, take care of the weak/poor/inform, etc.  These moral imperatives actually exist separate of the religion as well - people who are not religious are not automatically without worldview, or without a sense of morality.  Their morals are in fact probably pretty close to yours, ime.

 

So the idea that a Christian will only value things similar to other Christians - that doesn't sound likely to me.

 

The exception, of course, is the religion itself - the belief in the specifics of that particular story and the obligations therein (so an observant Jew might have trouble being married to a non-Jew because you need 2 kitchens and you can't work on the Sabbath and etc.; a Christian, who I guess would feel compelled to Baptize their kids, would probably have trouble with a spouse's objection to Baptism).

 

On the other hand, many couples who are not religious work these things out. Maybe one spouse wants to do Christmas with the kids until they are 7 or 8, telling them the lies about Santa and etc. the whole time, and the other spouse never wants to lie about Christmas at all.  You could have a drinking spouse and a non-drinking one for any variety of reasons, etc.

 

I believe Christians when they say it is hard to be married to someone who doesn't believe, because how hard would it be to love and be married to someone you thought was going to spend eternity in hell?  But I don't think the difficulty is because Christians have different morals, or because those morals have a different source.

[MercyA]

But then, I don't think religious people and non religious people are different in terms of  love and goodness at all. Religion doesn't make you a better partner; nor does lack of, I guess. Whereas being a fascist is probably going to impact on how much right you do in the world.

 

However you spin it, the whole yoked thing is a way of raising Christians above non-Christians. Which I kind of think of as unChristian.

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but becoming a Christian did make me a much better partner. This isn't to say that people who aren't Christians aren't even better partners than me; I have no doubt that many non-Christians are kinder, or more generous, or more patient. However, it wouldn't be true to say that it hasn't resulted in a major, radical change in my character. 

 

Putting myself in your shoes, I can see how the unequally yoked thing would seem as though it were elevating Christians, but it really doesn't seem that way to me. If I were in love with a non-Christian, I wouldn't not marry him because I thought I was "better" than him. I wouldn't marry him because God told me not to do so. I would expect marrying him to cause problems. I've found that (for me) going against God usually does. 

 

Hope that makes sense. I'm not trying or expecting to change your feelings about it, just trying to explain my perspective.

[MercyA]

I think a lot of the moral imperatives of Christianity (and most religions, for that matter) are pretty universal - don't lie, don't cheat, don't steal, be kind to other people, respect your parents, take care of the weak/poor/inform, etc.  These moral imperatives actually exist separate of the religion as well - people who are not religious are not automatically without worldview, or without a sense of morality.  Their morals are in fact probably pretty close to yours, ime.

 

Yes, and the New Testament teaches something similar: "For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them..." Romans 2:14-15

[Scarlett]

I can't speak for anyone else, but my faith is very specific in our daily way of life and the things that we do and avoid doing. When my first husband abandoned our faith we no longer shared the most important part of my life. It was very difficult for me. I felt very lonely at all of the most important times of my life. It had little to do with how good of a person he was or wasn't...we just were living seperate lives.

 

I do know Christians whose daily life is not as affected by their faith or religion and so I can see how living with someone not of their faith might be easier.

[Scarlett]

I guess radically different politics are my way of understanding it. I mean, I wouldn't marry a fascist.

 

But then, I don't think religious people and non religious people are different in terms of love and goodness at all. Religion doesn't make you a better partner; nor does lack of, I guess. Whereas being a fascist is probably going to impact on how much right you do in the world.

 

However you spin it, the whole yoked thing is a way of raising Christians above non-Christians. Which I kind of think of as unChristian.

I think that is a great example Sadie.....polar opposites in politics. It would be painful.

[Jean in Newcastle]

lol, non-Christians can also interact on a deep level.

 

Idk. The yoked thing has always made me feel very sad. It's like, why barricade yourself from others in that way? Obviously, people can do what they like, but I've always found it odd that having the same religion is a deal breaker.

Of course they can. You are missing my point. The point is when dealing with things at a deeper level then it is more important to have the same worldview. Because if not we would be talking past each other and I want something different in a marriage relationship.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I believe Christians when they say it is hard to be married to someone who doesn't believe, because how hard would it be to love and be married to someone you thought was going to spend eternity in hell? But I don't think the difficulty is because Christians have different morals, or because those morals have a different source.

I think that you missed the sentence where I said that I know lots of moral non Christians.

 

Conversations that I have with my Christian husband: what I have learned from reading and studying my Bible; what I am wrestling with when reading my Bible, what God is doing in my life, prayer requests I have, ministry goals that I have for the ministries I am involved in. None of these things put down nonChristians. All of them would be hard for a non Christian to discuss with me in a manner that understands where I am coming from and would be impossible for them to share with me on a reciprocal basis.

[eternalsummer]

They could share with you what they are wrestling with in a philosophical book they've read recently, how they think their relationship to humanity or to the Universe is developing at the moment, concerns they have about their life (which you might interpret as needing prayer), goals they have for charities they participate in or maybe for activist organizations they're involved with.

 

Non-Christians discuss these things with each other all the time, and with Christians.  We don't necessarily have the same philosophical concerns - sometimes my husband has been reading something (often a religious text!) and wants to discuss it, and I have to read some of it to be able to relate.  Sometimes my concerns about my place in the universe and my relation to the mass of humanity are different than my husband's concerns about his place - this makes sense as we are different people.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

They could share with you what they are wrestling with in a philosophical book they've read recently, how they think their relationship to humanity or to the Universe is developing at the moment, concerns they have about their life (which you might interpret as needing prayer), goals they have for charities they participate in or maybe for activist organizations they're involved with.

 

Non-Christians discuss these things with each other all the time, and with Christians. We don't necessarily have the same philosophical concerns - sometimes my husband has been reading something (often a religious text!) and wants to discuss it, and I have to read some of it to be able to relate. Sometimes my concerns about my place in the universe and my relation to the mass of humanity are different than my husband's concerns about his place - this makes sense as we are different people.

Yes. This is the sort of thing I discuss with nonChristian friends. But I want something different for my marriage. It's ok if you choose your mate differently. But he's my mate for life and this is a big part of how I chose mine. I happen to think that the Bible had this in mind in advising Christians to choose similarly.

[Scarlett]

I don't really care what other people think is right for them. I just know I grew up with a Catholic mum and an atheist dad, and he is the best, most giving dad in the universe. Would have been a real shame if someone had told her not to marry him because he didn't share her faith.

I am glad you have a great dad. What a gift.

 

I do wonder though how your Catholic mom dealt with her children being raised by an atheist?

[eternalsummer]

Maybe she assumed that they could come to religion on their own as adults, as they would to anything they found to be true and useful, if that was the path that was meant for them.

 

Maybe she felt more or less the way her husband felt, having his kids raised by a Catholic.

 

 

I agree that choosing your spouse in the way that makes sense to you is good; I disagree that telling another person that they will not be able to have a successful relationship with someone who is not of their religion is a good idea.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Maybe she assumed that they could come to religion on their own as adults, as they would to anything they found to be true and useful, if that was the path that was meant for them.

 

Maybe she felt more or less the way her husband felt, having his kids raised by a Catholic.

 

 

I agree that choosing your spouse in the way that makes sense to you is good; I disagree that telling another person that they will not be able to have a successful relationship with someone who is not of their religion is a good idea.

Giving my children my advice based on what I believe the Bible teaches (which is part of my Christian worldview) is my job. Obviously they can choose whether or not to follow it. I would not shun them or otherwise treat them badly if they chose differently. This thread asked for our opinion as parents of teens. I gave mine.

 

Editing to add: I also said why I have the opinion I gave. I believe that is important to give as well.

Edited June 8, 2017 by Jean in Newcastle

[Scarlett]

Maybe she assumed that they could come to religion on their own as adults, as they would to anything they found to be true and useful, if that was the path that was meant for them.

 

Maybe she felt more or less the way her husband felt, having his kids raised by a Catholic.

 

 

I agree that choosing your spouse in the way that makes sense to you is good; I disagree that telling another person that they will not be able to have a successful relationship with someone who is not of their religion is a good idea.

I am sure it is possible. It seems a hard row to hoe for someone who is committed to their faith.

[sassenach]

I guess radically different politics are my way of understanding it. I mean, I wouldn't marry a fascist. 

 

But then, I don't think religious people and non religious people are different in terms of  love and goodness at all. Religion doesn't make you a better partner; nor does lack of, I guess. Whereas being a fascist is probably going to impact on how much right you do in the world.

 

However you spin it, the whole yoked thing is a way of raising Christians above non-Christians. Which I kind of think of as unChristian.

 

No, that's really not it at all. Let me see if this makes sense- Think of the most deeply held relationship you have beside your dh. The one that you hold above all other relationships. Maybe the one that has had and still has significant influence on your life. Could you imagine marrying a man who didn't believe that person exists? Even if he was said, "It's ok, I fully support your belief that this is a real person, but I don't think he/she exists." You'd be living in 2 different realities.

 

That analogy falls WOEFULLY short of what following Jesus means in my life, but maybe it helps. Maybe not.

 

I think everyone who is not a Christian is doing an admirable job of trying to explain why this is offensive to them, but gently and truthfully, none of you, even those who formerly considered themselves Christian, are really getting anywhere close to fully representing our beliefs around this issue. And why would you? It's not your framework, so I completely understand why it's not clear to you.

 

But what it's definitely not is elevating Christians above non-Christians. Not at all. This isn't about Christians being better humans than non-Christians. It's not about eliminating a category of lesser people. The Christian marriage covenant is something very different than any other view of marriage. It's primarily about Jesus and the church. In order to enter into that kind of marriage covenant, both people really need to agree that it's what they're doing. 

[Frances]

No, that's really not it at all. Let me see if this makes sense- Think of the most deeply held relationship you have beside your dh. The one that you hold above all other relationships. Maybe the one that has had and still has significant influence on your life. Could you imagine marrying a man who didn't believe that person exists? Even if he was said, "It's ok, I fully support your belief that this is a real person, but I don't think he/she exists." You'd be living in 2 different realities.

 

That analogy falls WOEFULLY short of what following Jesus means in my life, but maybe it helps. Maybe not.

 

I think everyone who is not a Christian is doing an admirable job of trying to explain why this is offensive to them, but gently and truthfully, none of you, even those who formerly considered themselves Christian, are really getting anywhere close to fully representing our beliefs around this issue. And why would you? It's not your framework, so I completely understand why it's not clear to you.

 

But what it's definitely not is elevating Christians above non-Christians. Not at all. This isn't about Christians being better humans than non-Christians. It's not about eliminating a category of lesser people. The Christian marriage covenant is something very different than any other view of marriage. It's primarily about Jesus and the church. In order to enter into that kind of marriage covenant, both people really need to agree that it's what they're doing.

I think I understand what you are saying, especially the last two sentences. But I have to admit that if that is what most Christians believe, I now really don't understand why so many are actively against civil marriage for gays. I mean they aren't actively opposing other civil or religious marriages that don't fit the Christian marriage covenant. And gays aren't asking the government to make Christian churches allow them to enter into the Christian marriage covenant.

[MercyA]

I think I understand what you are saying, especially the last two sentences. But I have to admit that if that is what most Christians believe, I now really don't understand why so many are actively against civil marriage for gays. I mean they aren't actively opposing other civil or religious marriages that don't fit the Christian marriage covenant. And gays aren't asking the government to make Christian churches allow them to enter into the Christian marriage covenant.

 

This is a very fair criticism. I think, in America, much of the conservative Christian church has its identity all tied up with a particular political party, and that leads to all kinds of problems. There's a lot more I could say about that, but I just woke up and am not thinking very clearly yet. 

[sassenach]

I think I understand what you are saying, especially the last two sentences. But I have to admit that if that is what most Christians believe, I now really don't understand why so many are actively against civil marriage for gays. I mean they aren't actively opposing other civil or religious marriages that don't fit the Christian marriage covenant. And gays aren't asking the government to make Christian churches allow them to enter into the Christian marriage covenant.

 

I don't disagree with you. But also...

 

I think there is a concern that one day the government will punish Christian churches for holding to Christian doctrine on marriage. That there's not going to be some happy understanding about this. Look how long it took us all to parse out what was really being said in this thread. I've seen such views expressed here on the board many times.