What denomination is this?

[Ravin]

DD has a friend in her handbells class who is not allowed to play Carol of the Bells. Other songs that are allowed are Ode to Joy and something from Star Wars.

 

I'm scratching my head at why anyone would oppose Carol of the Bells and be good with Ode to Joy. This is for religious reasons. The music is being performed without lyrics, though they did sing during the learning process (with alternative "public school appropriate" lyrics for Ode to Joy and student-invented lyrics for the Star Wars theme).

 

Can anyone hazard an educated guess that might enlighten me?

[SquirrellyMama]

So, I didn't know there were words to Ode to Joy. I always thought that was the music that was chosen for Joyful, Joyful, We Adore Thee (Ode to Joy). In fact, I always forget the name of that song is Joyful, Joyful, We Adore Thee and not Ode to Joy.

 

Maybe they don't celebrate Christmas. I think Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Christmas. That would then be the reason for not playing Carol of the Bells.

 

Kelly

Edited December 6, 2016 by SquirrellyMama

[Scarlett]

DD has a friend in her handbells class who is not allowed to play Carol of the Bells. Other songs that are allowed are Ode to Joy and something from Star Wars.

 

I'm scratching my head at why anyone would oppose Carol of the Bells and be good with Ode to Joy. This is for religious reasons. The music is being performed without lyrics, though they did sing during the learning process (with alternative "public school appropriate" lyrics for Ode to Joy and student-invented lyrics for the Star Wars theme).

 

Can anyone hazard an educated guess that might enlighten me?

Is ode to joy a Christmas song? Religious song?

[Dmmetler]

When I've had Jehovah's Witness students, they couldn't do anything holiday related, although some families were stricter about it than others. I think they would be OK with Ode to Joy.

 

Here are the original lyrics (and a translation from German) to the Ode to Joy part of Beethoven's 9th symphony.

 

http://edboyden.org/beet9.html

 

 

[maize]

Since Carol of the Bells is the only Christmas or holiday related song, I'd assume a denomination that does not permit celebration of Christmas/holidays. Jehovah's Witness being the major one that I am aware of.

[maize]

Is ode to joy a Christmas song? Religious song?

No, it is from Beethoven's 9th symphony.

 

Eta it has religious elements in the original but the simplified versions that tend to be sung in English by school groups and such are more about peace and brotherhood.

Edited December 6, 2016 by maize

[DawnM]

When I've had Jehovah's Witness students, they couldn't do anything holiday related, although some families were stricter about it than others. I think they would be OK with Ode to Joy.

 

Here are the original lyrics (and a translation from German) to the Ode to Joy part of Beethoven's 9th symphony.

 

http://edboyden.org/beet9.html

 

Yeah, I was thinking JW too.

[Carol in Cal.]

Ode to Joy's words are a humanist hymn, not a religious one.

 

"All men will be brothers" is the theme.

 

So the pattern sounds like no religious or possibly no Christian celebrations allowed.  JW don't allow birthday celebrations either, though, so I'm not sure whether that's the right fit.  Maybe it's atheist who is specifically anti-Christian, or anti-religious in general.  

[Scarlett]

Ode to Joy's words are a humanist hymn, not a religious one.

 

"All men will be brothers" is the theme.

 

So the pattern sounds like no religious or possibly no Christian celebrations allowed. JW don't allow birthday celebrations either, though, so I'm not sure whether that's the right fit. Maybe it's atheist who is specifically anti-Christian, or anti-religious in general.

I don't understand the no bd celebration comment.....

 

But yes, it sounds like a JW to me. We wouldn't do a religious or a Christmas song.

[Carol in Cal.]

I don't understand the no bd celebration comment.....

 

JW kids at DD's school were not allowed to participate in the class birthday celebrations.  Is that untypical?  I assumed it was the religious rules, but maybe it had more to do with parents who didn't want their kids to have sugar.

[Scarlett]

JW kids at DD's school were not allowed to participate in the class birthday celebrations. Is that untypical? I assumed it was the religious rules, but maybe it had more to do with parents who didn't want their kids to have sugar.

It is true we don't celebrate bd. I just didn't understand what that had to do with the original post....was bd mentioned? Maybe I missed it.

[Charlie]

DD has a friend in her handbells class who is not allowed to play Carol of the Bells. Other songs that are allowed are Ode to Joy and something from Star Wars.

 

I'm scratching my head at why anyone would oppose Carol of the Bells and be good with Ode to Joy. This is for religious reasons. The music is being performed without lyrics, though they did sing during the learning process (with alternative "public school appropriate" lyrics for Ode to Joy and student-invented lyrics for the Star Wars theme).

 

Can anyone hazard an educated guess that might enlighten me?

 

oh nevermind. I misunderstood. I thought the restriction was the class', but it's the child's. Yeah, that's weird. I don't know anyone who doesn't think Ode to Joy is religious.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Charlie

[Matryoshka]

oh nevermind. I misunderstood. I thought the restriction was the class', but it's the child's. Yeah, that's weird. I don't know anyone who doesn't think Ode to Joy is religious.

 

 

If they're JW, I wonder if the problem is not 'religious', but "Christmas'.  Carol of the Bells is a Christmas song, but doesn't reference God or Jesus anywhere - it's a relatively secular Christmas song.

 

Ode to Joy does have some references to God (but also to Nature - it was written during the romantic era, after all), but doesn't have anything to do with Christmas.

 

I thought it was mostly the celebration of holidays JWs had a problem with - do they also not like religious music?  I'm not all that knowledgable on this...

[Ravin]

I think from the info I have from DD that JW is likeliest. 

[Scarlett]

If they're JW, I wonder if the problem is not 'religious', but "Christmas'.  Carol of the Bells is a Christmas song, but doesn't reference God or Jesus anywhere - it's a relatively secular Christmas song.

 

Ode to Joy does have some references to God (but also to Nature - it was written during the romantic era, after all), but doesn't have anything to do with Christmas.

 

I thought it was mostly the celebration of holidays JWs had a problem with - do they also not like religious music?  I'm not all that knowledgable on this...

 

 

We have religious music in our worship....but we don't mix in other religions music with ours.  

[TravelingChris]

I think instrumental music should always be fine. 

[maize]

I think instrumental music should always be fine. 

 

?

 

Fine for who? For you?

 

Obviously if a person is following their own religious standards those standards are the ones that apply to them, not whatever standards someone else thinks should be fine.

[poppy]

If they're JW, I wonder if the problem is not 'religious', but "Christmas'.  Carol of the Bells is a Christmas song, but doesn't reference God or Jesus anywhere - it's a relatively secular Christmas song.

 

Ode to Joy does have some references to God (but also to Nature - it was written during the romantic era, after all), but doesn't have anything to do with Christmas.

 

I thought it was mostly the celebration of holidays JWs had a problem with - do they also not like religious music?  I'm not all that knowledgable on this...

 

Christmas is by definition a references to Jesus. 

[Matryoshka]

Christmas is by definition a references to Jesus.

Yes, but there are lots and lots of people who celebrate Christmas in a very secular way. There are people who not just agnostic but adherents of other religions who celebrate the secular aspects of Chistmas. That song is about as religious as Frosty or Rudolph.

[Bluegoat]

Easter is a reference to a non-Christian goddess, but it isn't actually about her.  Songs associated with Christmas aren't necessarily religious, either..

[Scarlett]

Just a comment about the wording....I am not sure if it was the JW child's words or not...but I find it strange to say we aren't 'allowed'.  I taught my son to be aware of his wording.....he doesn't celebrate for his own reasons.  Not because he isn't 'allowed'.

 

Sometimes I think a JW doesn't put it that way but it gets lost in the translation.  Saying we aren't allowed makes it sound like we are being punished or deprived.  

[Ausmumof3]

If they're JW, I wonder if the problem is not 'religious', but "Christmas'. Carol of the Bells is a Christmas song, but doesn't reference God or Jesus anywhere - it's a relatively secular Christmas song.

 

Ode to Joy does have some references to God (but also to Nature - it was written during the romantic era, after all), but doesn't have anything to do with Christmas.

 

I thought it was mostly the celebration of holidays JWs had a problem with - do they also not like religious music? I'm not all that knowledgable on this...

It's not the celebration of holidays as such, but the origin in paganism for several of them, I think.

[Charlie]

If they're JW, I wonder if the problem is not 'religious', but "Christmas'.  Carol of the Bells is a Christmas song, but doesn't reference God or Jesus anywhere - it's a relatively secular Christmas song.

 

Ode to Joy does have some references to God (but also to Nature - it was written during the romantic era, after all), but doesn't have anything to do with Christmas.

 

I thought it was mostly the celebration of holidays JWs had a problem with - do they also not like religious music?  I'm not all that knowledgable on this...

 

Not speaking about JW (I don't know anything about it), but about Ode to Joy not being a religious song. It was one of our "go to" Christmas songs every year growing up. I know the hymn lyrics aren't the same as the poem used by Beethoven, but the holiday association with that tune is so strong for me, I must have just assumed it was for everyone. Not that that changes anything, but I find it weird that others don't associate it with Christmas or religion at all. It reminds me of the time I realized most people don't refer to their sodas as "pop."

[heartlikealion]

Maybe have your dd just ask her if there's a way to tactfully do so.

 

Maybe there's some completely non-religious reason like it was requested by the family that the student not play it because it was associated with a sad or bad memory. I am only saying this because Ode to Joy also sounds like a religious song.

[gardenmom5]

So, I didn't know there were words to Ode to Joy. I always thought that was the music that was chosen for Joyful, Joyful, We Adore Thee (Ode to Joy). In fact, I always forget the name of that song is Joyful, Joyful, We Adore Thee and not Ode to Joy.

 

Maybe they don't celebrate Christmas. I think Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Christmas. That would then be the reason for not playing Carol of the Bells.

 

Kelly

ode to joy is from beethoven's 9th symphony.  the words from a poem by fredrich shiller.

http://www.ca-in-sapporo.com/interests/beethoven.html

 

 

 

Is ode to joy a Christmas song? Religious song?

nope.  considering it's referring to "daughter of elysium", it can hardly be considered a religious christian poem.

 

Not speaking about JW (I don't know anything about it), but about Ode to Joy not being a religious song. It was one of our "go to" Christmas songs every year growing up. I know the hymn lyrics aren't the same as the poem used by Beethoven, but the holiday association with that tune is so strong for me, I must have just assumed it was for everyone. Not that that changes anything, but I find it weird that others don't associate it with Christmas or religion at all. It reminds me of the time I realized most people don't refer to their sodas as "pop."

who is "our"?  your family?  your church?  your school?   ode to joy is neither a religious or a christmas song. 

we sing the hymn 'be still my soul", that uses the music to finlandia.  it always makes me smile when I'm out and about and hear - finlandia, and I think of the words.  that doesn't make findlandia a religious piece of music.  (which it is not.  the original is patriotic.)    I purchased a beginning piano classical music book which just happens to contain . . . finlandia.

 

I went to school with, and was friends with, some kids who didn't celebrate christmas.  I don't remember their sect, but they were not JWs. 

 

we stopped having christmas trees or singing carols in elementary school before school started.  it had been one of the very few things I looked forward to at that time of year.  (I came from a rather dysfunctional family.)

[poppy]

Yes, but there are lots and lots of people who celebrate Christmas in a very secular way. There are people who not just agnostic but adherents of other religions who celebrate the secular aspects of Chistmas. That song is about as religious as Frosty or Rudolph.

It's true that some atheists and agnostics can enjoy Christmas. I'm one of those people! Still. My experience is that only people on earth who would say Christmas is secular are people born Christian or in a Christian dominated milieu. It is a Christian festival by dictionary definition, by encyclopedia entry and by simple common sense. Ask a Jewish person is they think Christmas is Christian or secular. Ask a Jehovahs Witness, too.

[Charlie]

ode to joy is from beethoven's 9th symphony.  the words from a poem by fredrich shiller.

http://www.ca-in-sapporo.com/interests/beethoven.html

 

 

 

nope.  considering it's referring to "daughter of elysium", it can hardly be considered a religious christian poem.

 

who is "our"?  your family?  your church?  your school?   ode to joy is neither a religious or a christmas song. 

we sing the hymn 'be still my soul", that uses the music to finlandia.  it always makes me smile when I'm out and about and hear - finlandia, and I think of the words.  that doesn't make findlandia a religious piece of music.  (which it is not.  the original is patriotic.)    I purchased a beginning piano classical music book which just happens to contain . . . finlandia.

 

I went to school with, and was friends with, some kids who didn't celebrate christmas.  I don't remember their sect, but they were not JWs. 

 

we stopped having christmas trees or singing carols in elementary school before school started.  it had been one of the very few things I looked forward to at that time of year.  (I came from a rather dysfunctional family.)

 

Oh yes, sorry, "our" was me and my family and the church I went to as a child. My experiences with this song were not only related to Christmas, but limited to Christmas.

[maize]

Oh yes, sorry, "our" was me and my family and the church I went to as a child. My experiences with this song were not only related to Christmas, but limited to Christmas.

Some of the confusion comes from the fact that the music for Ode to Joy was written by Beethoven as part of his 9th symphony, as a setting to the (non Christian) poem of the same name by Friedrich Schiller. However, in the early 20th century a Christian preacher by the name of Henry van Dyke wrote a hymn which he set to Beethoven's music. That hymn, titled The Hymn of Joy, is indeed very Christian. Here is the first verse (which I imagine is the song you grew up singing at Christmas):

 

 

Joyful, joyful, we adore Thee,

God of glory, Lord of love;

hearts unfold like flow'rs before Thee,

Opening to the Sun above,

Melt the clouds of sin and sadness;

drive the dark of doubt away;

Giver of immortal gladness,

fill us with the light of day!

 

It is not specifically a Christmas song, but certainly as a joyous expression of Christian faith fits into a celebratory Christmas spirit.

 

It is not, however, Ode to Joy; it just borrows Beethoven's melody.

Edited December 7, 2016 by maize

[gardenmom5]

It's true that some atheists and agnostics can enjoy Christmas. I'm one of those people! Still. My experience is that only people on earth who would say Christmas is secular are people born Christian or in a Christian dominated milieu. It is a Christian festival by dictionary definition, by encyclopedia entry and by simple common sense. Ask a Jewish person is they think Christmas is Christian or secular. Ask a Jehovahs Witness, too.

 

 you could ask the muslims in abu dhabi.

the see it as an opportunity to attract tourists.

[heartlikealion]

ode to joy is from beethoven's 9th symphony.  the words from a poem by fredrich shiller.

http://www.ca-in-sapporo.com/interests/beethoven.html

 

 

 

nope.  considering it's referring to "daughter of elysium", it can hardly be considered a religious christian poem.

 

who is "our"?  your family?  your church?  your school?   ode to joy is neither a religious or a christmas song. 

we sing the hymn 'be still my soul", that uses the music to finlandia.  it always makes me smile when I'm out and about and hear - finlandia, and I think of the words.  that doesn't make findlandia a religious piece of music.  (which it is not.  the original is patriotic.)    I purchased a beginning piano classical music book which just happens to contain . . . finlandia.

 

I went to school with, and was friends with, some kids who didn't celebrate christmas.  I don't remember their sect, but they were not JWs. 

 

we stopped having christmas trees or singing carols in elementary school before school started.  it had been one of the very few things I looked forward to at that time of year.  (I came from a rather dysfunctional family.)

 

Just glancing at the lyrics I see "He" in capital letters. That means God to me. And "Heavenly." So yeah, I'd be quick to think religious on some level.

 

ETA: and if you're focused on whether or not the religion association is Christian, I think it's kinda a moot point. If someone doesn't feel comfortable with the poem it's probably because it doesn't fit in their belief system, whatever that is.

Edited December 7, 2016 by heartlikealion

[Slartibartfast]

The Lyrics to Ode to Joy are

 

O friends, no more of these sounds!

Let us sing more cheerful songs,

More songs full of joy!

Joy!

Joy!

Joy, bright spark of divinity,

Daughter of Elysium,

Fire-inspired we tread

Within thy sanctuary.

Thy magic power re-unites

All that custom has divided,

All men become brothers,

Under the sway of thy gentle wings.

Whoever has created

An abiding friendship,

Or has won

A true and loving wife,

All who can call at least one soul theirs,

Join our song of praise;

But those who cannot must creep tearfully

Away from our circle.

All creatures drink of joy

At natures breast.

Just and unjust

Alike taste of her gift;

She gave us kisses and the fruit of the vine,

A tried friend to the end.

Even the worm can feel contentment,

And the cherub stands before God!

Gladly, like the heavenly bodies

Which He sent on their courses

Through the splendor of the firmament;

Thus, brothers, you should run your race,

Like a hero going to victory!

You millions, I embrace you.

This kiss is for all the world!

Brothers, above the starry canopy

There must dwell a loving father.

Do you fall in worship, you millions?

World, do you know your creator?

Seek Him in the heavens;

Above the stars must he dwell.

 

It's translated from German so there may be slight variations. It isn't a Christmas song, though it is a religious song and Carol of the Bells *is* "Merry Christmas" appears several times in the lyrics.

 

I don't know how advanced her class is but most musicians play or sing a religious song at some point or another. People don't generally refuse to play religious (even anti-religious people) music because much of it is actually quite nice and they would miss out on several composers, not to mention it could be difficult to find a job with a symphony.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Slartibartfast

[Carol in Cal.]

It is true we don't celebrate bd. I just didn't understand what that had to do with the original post....was bd mentioned? Maybe I missed it.

No, I was just thinking that Ode to Joy is a secular celebratory thing, in the same way that a birthday is, and maybe they would fall into the same category?

[Guest]

I haven't read all the responses, so please forgive me if this has already been brought up.  I can see why Ode to Joy and not Carol of the Bells.  What I don't see is Ode to Joy and Star Wars something or other and then excluding Carol of the Bells.  That's where it goes wonky on me.  ???

 

[Scarlett]

No, I was just thinking that Ode to Joy is a secular celebratory thing, in the same way that a birthday is, and maybe they would fall into the same category?

Oh I see. Ftr, we aren't against celebratory things. 😀

[Scarlett]

I haven't read all the responses, so please forgive me if this has already been brought up. I can see why Ode to Joy and not Carol of the Bells. What I don't see is Ode to Joy and Star Wars something or other and then excluding Carol of the Bells. That's where it goes wonky on me. ???

My ignorance is showing, but apparently from my brief Google and other comments her Ode to Joy Is not a religious or Christmas song, but Carol of the Bells is. and Star Wars.....well it is just Star Wars.

[Matryoshka]

you could ask the muslims in abu dhabi.

the see it as an opportunity to attract tourists.

Or my Hindu friends who have a big tree and a boatload of presents from... Rudolph and Santa. Yeah, it confuses me too... I'm just saying there's a lot of Christmas celebrating out there that's no longer related much to Christ. And many Christmas songs that evoke the secular aspects of Christmas celebration without any overt religious connotation.

[Guest]

My ignorance is showing, but apparently from my brief Google and other comments her Ode to Joy Is not a religious or Christmas song, but Carol of the Bells is. and Star Wars.....well it is just Star Wars.

But the thing is, words have been assigned to the tune and I could sing multiple verses of them, and they are *exceedingly* Christian in content.  If you just listen to the tune by Beethoven, then there isn't the association.  But if you have been raised with the words added by Schiller, it is exceedingly Christian.

[Slartibartfast]

One can really only go so far without playing any John Williams. :lol:

 

It isn't just Star Wars, people would like hearing something they recognize and that would make for decent music for the bells.

 

I was in orchestra and I really couldn't say how much John Williams I have played at one point or another.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Slartibartfast

[TravelingChris]

No, I think instrumental music is fine for everybody.  It does not have lyrics attached so there is no religious or other message.  As to Star Wars music, there have been people who view the movies and the whole world of Star Wars in a religious manner. But again, I don't think that playing non lyrical music should ever be banned.

[poppy]

Or my Hindu friends who have a big tree and a boatload of presents from... Rudolph and Santa. Yeah, it confuses me too... I'm just saying there's a lot of Christmas celebrating out there that's no longer related much to Christ. And many Christmas songs that evoke the secular aspects of Christmas celebration without any overt religious connotation.

I once saw Santa marching in a (I think religious?) parade in India, ha. But really. JWs feel Christmas is a pagan holiday, so it's being embraced by India and atheists is not going to make them more comfortable with it.

[maize]

No, I think instrumental music is fine for everybody. It does not have lyrics attached so there is no religious or other message. As to Star Wars music, there have been people who view the movies and the whole world of Star Wars in a religious manner. But again, I don't think that playing non lyrical music should ever be banned.

But no one is banning the music; it sounds like one child is opting not to participate in a song that is not acceptable according to their religion. Maybe the whole group will choose not to play that song out of a desire to include everyone, but that is still not banning the song.

[KarenNC]

You might also find some in Messianic-type sects who might not do so. I met a woman several years ago who was part of one (don't remember the group's name) and, while definitely Christian, they only celebrate holidays specifically listed in the Bible.

 

How old are the kids? I've struggled, particularly when my child was very young, with where to draw the line in participating in activities related to a different religion. We have always been very committed to raising our daughter with an understanding and appreciation of cultures and religions, but I'm a practicing Neopagan in the Bible Belt who was raised very Calvinist and whose local homeschool culture is overwhelmingly not only very Christian, but in which a particular kind of Christianity is assumed. As such, it has been a definite learning curve on how comfortable I have been with allowing (and that is the proper term for our situation) our daughter to participate in some group homeschool activities that include a specifically Christian focus. My comfort level has changed over time and as she has gotten older, and therefore more aware and grounded in our family's religious culture. I would likely be less worried/uptight about it at younger ages with subsequent children, had I had any, but that's the risk with the oldest/only kid ;). I think much of what some might have seen as my over-reaction was my trying to muddle my way through without any experience or community/co-religionists to model how to raise a child in our particular minority religion when the majority one is totally overwhelming. I'm sure I did end up over-reacting at times, and had more of an issue with it than someone who wasn't coming out of my particular background and wasn't dealing with an aggressively evangelical extended family and social system. 

 

We do celebrate Christmas as a cultural and extended-family holiday, separate from our religious holiday (Winter Solstice). I struggled when my daughter was 6 and the leader of the 4H group we had joined, which was secular by its by-laws, wanted to go caroling to a nursing home. I was okay with participating until she chose several specifically "professing personal belief"-type carols like "Go Tell It on the Mountain" rather than more "about the holiday"-type ones like "Carol of the Bells" or "Winter Wonderland." I ended up deciding to have my daughter not participate in that activity. By the time she was in middle or high school, it would not have been a big deal to me if she wanted to participate because both she and I were more comfortable and grounded in general, and she could appreciate it for the experience. If it had just been instrumental, it would also not have been a big deal for me.

[Matryoshka]

But the thing is, words have been assigned to the tune and I could sing multiple verses of them, and they are *exceedingly* Christian in content. If you just listen to the tune by Beethoven, then there isn't the association. But if you have been raised with the words added by Schiller, it is exceedingly Christian.

I wouldn't say the words by Schiller are 'exceedingly Christian'. The poem is religious, but in a way that was very common of the Romantic Era which mixes in a lot of references to Greek mythology and also also included conflating God and Nature in a way that is not at all common to mainstream Christianity.

 

You're probably thinking of the other text to the song, which is Joyful Joyful We Adore Thee? That I'll agree is exceedingly Christian. :)

Edited December 7, 2016 by Matryoshka

[maize]

But the thing is, words have been assigned to the tune and I could sing multiple verses of them, and they are *exceedingly* Christian in content. If you just listen to the tune by Beethoven, then there isn't the association. But if you have been raised with the words added by Schiller, it is exceedingly Christian.

I think you mean the words by Van Dyke.

 

And that would only apply to someone who has been raised with those words; most JW kids for instance would not have been. I've never even heard them other than one year in high school choir (totally secular school that has no issue with the choir singing religious music). The first words I ever learned for Ode to Joy were about brotherhood.

Edited December 7, 2016 by maize

[Matryoshka]

I once saw Santa marching in a (I think religious?) parade in India, ha. But really. JWs feel Christmas is a pagan holiday, so it's being embraced by India and atheists is not going to make them more comfortable with it.

I never said it would. What I said in my OP about this is that I thought JW's would feel that Carol of the Bells was not appropriate because it was *Christmas* music even if it doesn't have much religious content, and that they might be fine with Ode to Joy even if it were religious because it has nothing to do with Christmas.

[Scarlett]

But the thing is, words have been assigned to the tune and I could sing multiple verses of them, and they are *exceedingly* Christian in content. If you just listen to the tune by Beethoven, then there isn't the association. But if you have been raised with the words added by Schiller, it is exceedingly Christian.

Ah. Well my guess is that JW and family is only familiar with the tune by Beethovan.

[Scarlett]

No, I think instrumental music is fine for everybody. It does not have lyrics attached so there is no religious or other message. As to Star Wars music, there have been people who view the movies and the whole world of Star Wars in a religious manner. But again, I don't think that playing non lyrical music should ever be banned.

I can't speak for every one but instrumental music with well known lyrics certainly can have meaning.

[Dmmetler]

But no one is banning the music; it sounds like one child is opting not to participate in a song that is not acceptable according to their religion. Maybe the whole group will choose not to play that song out of a desire to include everyone, but that is still not banning the song.

FWIW, when I taught PS, there was a child who's mother converted to an Anabaptist sect, and came to school to tell me that her son could no longer participate in anything involving instrumental music because it was unbiblical. That's kind of hard in an Orff-based music program, and after mom vetoed several suggestions (because apparently recorded music was out as well, so even if I'd created a music history of acapella vocal music, he wouldn't have been allowed to listen to it), the kid got a study hall. He also ended up being excused from basically anything that involved videos, because they had background music.

 

What was ironic is that the particular denomination she claimed is one that has a private school with one of the top high school music programs, including orchestra, anywhere, and amazing music programs at their colleges and seminaries. Growing up with four part acapella part singing from birth trains some amazing musicians, and family music making is also quite common. To this day, I don't know if the mother had found a congregation with a very, very strict interpretation, or if she had, with the zeal of a convert, jumped to an extreme far beyond what was typically held.

[gardenmom5]

One can really only go so far without playing any John Williams. :lol:

 

It isn't just Star Wars, people would like hearing something they recognize and that would make for decent music for the bells.

 

I was in orchestra and I really couldn't say how much John Williams I have played at one point or another.

 

dh's nephew is a professional cellist.  he went out of his way to avoid williams.  he made many a derogatory comment as well.   he was forced to study  his work in a MA program.

 

FWIW, when I taught PS, there was a child who's mother converted to an Anabaptist sect, and came to school to tell me that her son could no longer participate in anything involving instrumental music because it was unbiblical. That's kind of hard in an Orff-based music program, and after mom vetoed several suggestions (because apparently recorded music was out as well, so even if I'd created a music history of acapella vocal music, he wouldn't have been allowed to listen to it), the kid got a study hall. He also ended up being excused from basically anything that involved videos, because they had background music.

 

What was ironic is that the particular denomination she claimed is one that has a private school with one of the top high school music programs, including orchestra, anywhere, and amazing music programs at their colleges and seminaries. Growing up with four part acapella part singing from birth trains some amazing musicians, and family music making is also quite common. To this day, I don't know if the mother had found a congregation with a very, very strict interpretation, or if she had, with the zeal of a convert, jumped to an extreme far beyond what was typically held.

 

 

I must have missed that part of the old testament, which does reference music, and various instruments. . . .

[Charlie]

Some of the confusion comes from the fact that the music for Ode to Joy was written by Beethoven as part of his 9th symphony, as a setting to the (non Christian) poem of the same name by Friedrich Schiller. However, in the early 20th century a Christian preacher by the name of Henry van Dyke wrote a hymn which he set to Beethoven's music. That hymn, titled The Hymn of Joy, is indeed very Christian. Here is the first verse (which I imagine is the song you grew up singing at Christmas):

 

 

Joyful, joyful, we adore Thee,

God of glory, Lord of love;

hearts unfold like flow'rs before Thee,

Opening to the Sun above,

Melt the clouds of sin and sadness;

drive the dark of doubt away;

Giver of immortal gladness,

fill us with the light of day!

 

It is not specifically a Christmas song, but certainly as a joyous expression of Christian faith fits into a celebratory Christmas spirit.

 

It is not, however, Ode to Joy; it just borrows Beethoven's melody.

 

Yes, these are the lyrics I grew up with. We (my family and everyone in our little church) sang them every Christmas. It still remember the feeling I had when I realized some songs were sung much more enthusiastically than others, and those were the Christmas songs and this one was always belted out. That's probably why it's so strong in my memory - it was a song given much gusto once a year.

 

But when I first learned of the original symphony and lyrics, my dad showed me a copy of the English translation. It talks about worshiping your creator and finding him in the heavens (thank you, Slartibartfast). I can see the part that I'm talking about is at the very end. That's not secular. It may be deist or some very vague reference to religion, but it's not a-religious. God is a religious idea, so references to him is understandably religious references. I don't understand the idea this song isn't religious, even though I understand Christians don't "claim" it a being Christian, or lack of better words.