Another Window Cord Accident

[goldberry]

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2016/11/28/byu-coachs-family-to-donate-3-year-old-daughters-organs-after-tragic-accident.html

 

:crying:  :crying:  :crying:

 

I have no little ones any more, but am considering getting rid of mine just for when people visit.  I'm definitely going around and putting all the cords up on the window tops anyway.  

Edited November 28, 2016 by goldberry

[maize]

So very sad :( :( :(

[Lanny]

Amen. And a swimming accident on one of the 3 beaches on Andersen AFB, Guam.  A Master Sargent from the Hawaii National Guard. Late at night. I assume he was alone.  So many needless accidents, of various kinds

.

 http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/11/28/airman-who-disappeared-during-late-night-swim-off-guam-coast-presumed-dead.html

[MercyA]

So, so sad.  :(  

 

There is another aspect to this that is bothering me, though. I read through the updates on her parents' Go Fund Me page. Elsie has brain damage and has been having seizures. However, she has responded to pinching and to her parents' voices. When her parents sang to her, her heart rate dropped. She coughs. She can breathe on her own.

 

Her parents have said they have met with the hospital organ donation team and are planning on donating her organs. This bothers me because she is not dead, even if her condition is worsening. She's not even "brain dead," according to the information that has been shared with the public. 

 

I have the deepest sympathy for her parents and sincerely hope that they are not being pressured into this decision.  :(

 

ETA: I've been noticing more and more of these type of situations in the news in the past year or so. It makes me very concerned for the rights of the disabled.

Edited November 28, 2016 by MercyA

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

So, so sad.  :(  

 

There is another aspect to this that is bothering me, though. I read through the updates on her parents' Go Fund Me page. Elsie has brain damage and has been having seizures. However, she has responded to pinching and to her parents' voices. When her parents sang to her, her heart rate dropped. She coughs. She can breathe on her own.

 

Her parents have said they have met with the hospital organ donation team and are planning on donating her organs. This bothers me because she is not dead, even if her condition is worsening. She's not even "brain dead," according to the information that has been shared with the public. 

 

I have the deepest sympathy for her parents and sincerely hope that they are not being pressured into this decision.  :(

 

ETA: I've been noticing more and more of these type of situations in the news in the past year or so. It makes me very concerned for the rights of the disabled.

No hospital that I am aware of would ever do organ donation from someone not dead unless it is a voluntary living donor kidney donation or something similar. Now it is possible if her situation is grave in that there is little hope of recovery that transplant team may have approached family to broach the subject which is also approached with care but they would never take organs from someone not declared brain dead.

 

Also, from what I recall there was very strict protocols for determining brain death such as 2 neurologists confirming death 24 hours apart. Also, the exam consisted of several indicators such as the absence of cough reflex, lack of pupillary response, no response to pain, failure to breath with the apnea test, absent gag and corneal reflexes, and absent oculocehaplic reflex and others. Plus they have to rule out other conditions that might cause abnormal results in neurological exam such as hypothermia, tranquilizers and other neuro condtions.

[goldberry]

Also, from what I recall there was very strict protocols for determining brain death such as 2 neurologists confirming death 24 hours apart. Also, the exam consisted of several indicators such as the absence of cough reflex, lack of pupillary response, no response to pain, failure to breath with the apnea test, absent gag and corneal reflexes, and absent oculocehaplic reflex and others. Plus they have to rule out other conditions that might cause abnormal results in neurological exam such as hypothermia, tranquilizers and other neuro condtions.

 

Thanks for sharing that.

[goldberry]

 

Her parents have said they have met with the hospital organ donation team and are planning on donating her organs. This bothers me because she is not dead, even if her condition is worsening. She's not even "brain dead," according to the information that has been shared with the public. 

 

I have the deepest sympathy for her parents and sincerely hope that they are not being pressured into this decision.  :(

 

ETA: I've been noticing more and more of these type of situations in the news in the past year or so. It makes me very concerned for the rights of the disabled.

 

They are not donating her organs *now*, but they are watching her decline. I don't know these people obviously, but from reading their posts they do not seem like anyone who would be rushed into something.  

 

She is comfortable and not in pain. We will stay by her side and continue to love her forever. We do not have a timeline for how long this transition will take.

 

Someone in the comments told a story about surviving a 42 minute lack of oxygen when he was supposedly brain dead.  I don't know how to account for those stories.  I do know it would be agonizing to try to make a decision about something like that.  As someone who would NOT want to be kept alive in a vegetative state, it would be very conflicting.  Do you keep a person alive based on a one in a million possibility?  It's a horrific situation to be in, and I can only pray for the family.  They sound like loving people who will make the best decision they can.

[MercyA]

No hospital that I am aware of would ever do organ donation from someone not dead unless it is a voluntary living donor kidney donation or something similar. Now it is possible if her situation is grave in that there is little hope of recovery that transplant team may have approached family to broach the subject which is also approached with care but they would never take organs from someone not declared brain dead.

 

Also, from what I recall there was very strict protocols for determining brain death such as 2 neurologists confirming death 24 hours apart. Also, the exam consisted of several indicators such as the absence of cough reflex, lack of pupillary response, no response to pain, failure to breath with the apnea test, absent gag and corneal reflexes, and absent oculocehaplic reflex and others. Plus they have to rule out other conditions that might cause abnormal results in neurological exam such as hypothermia, tranquilizers and other neuro condtions.

 

Okay, so according to the information her family has posted, she has coughed, her pupils have responded to light (although sometimes not correctly, and that's why they think she's having seizures), and she has responded to pain. So, she's not brain dead. The parts of her brain that were not injured are no longer being deprived of oxygen, so although I'm not an expert, I would think there wouldn't be further damage to those areas.

 

From what I've read, there are still very wide and varying protocols for determining brain death. See, for example, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26719912 

 

"Significant variability may exist in individual institutional policies regarding the determination of brain death...there remained significant variability across all 5 categories of data, such as excluding the absence of hypotension (276 of 491 policies [56.2%]) and hypothermia (181 of 228 policies [79.4%]), specifying all aspects of the clinical examination and apnea testing, and specifying appropriate ancillary tests and how they were to be performed. Of the 492 policies, 163 (33.1%) required specific expertise in neurology or neurosurgery for the health care professional who determines brain death, and 212 (43.1%) stipulated that an attending physician determine brain death; 150 policies did not mention who could perform such determination."

 

I will be in prayer for the family. I am so very sorry this horrible accident happened to them.  :( 

[MistyMountain]

I had a very scary situation with blinds when my son was almost 4 and we just moved into our new house. I was just thinking about that today. I was so thankful when I heard the crash and saw what happen that he was ok because it could of been really bad. It really shook me up how the outcome could have been very different.

Edited November 28, 2016 by MistyMountain

[MercyA]

They are not donating her organs *now*, but they are watching her decline. I don't know these people obviously, but from reading their posts they do not seem like anyone who would be rushed into something.  

 

She is comfortable and not in pain. We will stay by her side and continue to love her forever. We do not have a timeline for how long this transition will take.

 

Someone in the comments told a story about surviving a 42 minute lack of oxygen when he was supposedly brain dead.  I don't know how to account for those stories.  I do know it would be agonizing to try to make a decision about something like that.  As someone who would NOT want to be kept alive in a vegetative state, it would be very conflicting.  Do you keep a person alive based on a one in a million possibility?  It's a horrific situation to be in, and I can only pray for the family.  They sound like loving people who will make the best decision they can.

 

Yes, I saw that, thank you for sharing it here. I pray you are right about them not being rushed or pushed into the decision.

 

Like you, I have read stories about people surviving supposed brain death. At least one later shared that he had heard what was going on around him, including a doctor saying that he was brain dead.  

 

I do hope that the doctors are not too quick to declare brain death. Doctors do not always hold to the standards, as in these two cases:

 

"In one, an anesthesiologist administered a drug to a BHC to treat an episode of tachycardia during a harvest. The donor began to breathe spontaneously just as the surgeon removed his liver. The anesthesiologist reviewed the donor’s chart and found that he had gasped at the end of an apnea test, but a neurosurgeon had declared him dead anyway.

 

In another case, a 30-year-old patient with severe head trauma was declared brain dead by two doctors. Preparations were made to excise his organs. The on-call anesthesiologist noted that the beating-heart cadaver was breathing spontaneously, but the declaring physicians said that because he was not going to recover he could be declared dead. The harvest proceeded over the objections of the anesthesiologist, who saw the donor move and react to the scalpel with hypertension that had to be treated. It was in vain since the proposed liver recipient died before he could get the organ, which went untransplanted."

 

I agree that Elsie's family sounds very loving and I am sure they will do what they believe to be right. I have a hard time trusting the transplant industry.

 

ETA: And with that, I'll bow out. I don't want to take goldberry's thread too far off course.

Edited November 28, 2016 by MercyA

[goldberry]

I had a very scary situation with blinds when my son was almost 4 and we just moved into our new house. I was just thinking about that today. I was so thankful when I heard the crash and saw what happen that he was ok because it could of been really bad. It really shook me up how the outcome could have been very different.

 

I'm so glad your son is okay.  I have never been one to think "couldn't happen to me".  Parents are humans and tragedy happens in the blink of an eye.

[LucyStoner]

This is why we ordered cordless blinds when the boys were young.

 

It is such a tragedy.

Edited November 28, 2016 by LucyStoner

[Hilltopmom]

It is very sad.

 

As for their decisions- Having cared for my child in a vegetative state for years & seen his QOL & health decline (it's just inevitable.. Trach infections, constant vent issues, pneumonias, tube feeds, need for unavailable 24/7 nursing care making us prisoners in our home, etc) I can say I would never do that to a child or family again.

 

When there's really no hope, "I" feel we should let people pass on their own sooner, not later. I wish so much we could undo all the years we made him hang on by continuing life sustaining treatment.

[justasque]

It is very sad.

 

As for their decisions- Having cared for my child in a vegetative state for years & seen his QOL & health decline (it's just inevitable.. Trach infections, constant vent issues, pneumonias, tube feeds, need for unavailable 24/7 nursing care making us prisoners in our home, etc) I can say I would never do that to a child or family again.

 

When there's really no hope, "I" feel we should let people pass on their own sooner, not later. I wish so much we could undo all the years we made him hang on by continuing life sustaining treatment.

 

:grouphug:    :grouphug:    :grouphug:

[Amira]

It is very sad.

 

As for their decisions- Having cared for my child in a vegetative state for years & seen his QOL & health decline (it's just inevitable.. Trach infections, constant vent issues, pneumonias, tube feeds, need for unavailable 24/7 nursing care making us prisoners in our home, etc) I can say I would never do that to a child or family again.

 

When there's really no hope, "I" feel we should let people pass on their own sooner, not later. I wish so much we could undo all the years we made him hang on by continuing life sustaining treatment.

:grouphug:

[sewingmama]

Cord accidents make me feel sick. I was always so careful when my kids were young...fully aware of them as I had heard of a few in the papers.

 

Well we rented a house that had many full length blinds and cords reaching to the ground. I was always paranoid...rolling the cords up, tying them and putting them up on the rod and never opening the blinds.

 

One day I was sitting at the kitchen table and I noticed a cord had fallen down and untied. It was so close to me if I leaned over I could touch it. I told myself as soon as I finished lunch I would get up and fix it straight away. My then 18 month old DS toddled past me and as he passed the cord he totally randomly reached out, grabbed it and swung it. It had a weight on the end so it swung out and wrapped around his neck three times before tangling itself into a knot at the throat. I was on my feet in seconds but it was so tight I couldnt get it undone and my DS was struggling which pulled it tighter and his face was going deep red. I had to lift him off his feet to reduce the tension and right next to me was a pair of the kids craft scissors that I grabbed and cut the cord to free him because I could not untangle it while holding him up.

 

I could not believe how fast that happenned with me sitting right there and always being so careful to keep them away from the kids. After that they were all doubly secured out of reach and the next time we moved into a rental we chose a place that had modern blinds where the cords are secured at the base and have a snap feature if they are pulled on.

 

Seconds people...it takes seconds.

[Ausmumof3]

Yes, I saw that, thank you for sharing it here. I pray you are right about them not being rushed or pushed into the decision.

 

Like you, I have read stories about people surviving supposed brain death. At least one later shared that he had heard what was going on around him, including a doctor saying that he was brain dead.

 

I do hope that the doctors are not too quick to declare brain death. Doctors do not always hold to the standards, as in these two cases:

 

"In one, an anesthesiologist administered a drug to a BHC to treat an episode of tachycardia during a harvest. The donor began to breathe spontaneously just as the surgeon removed his liver. The anesthesiologist reviewed the donor’s chart and found that he had gasped at the end of an apnea test, but a neurosurgeon had declared him dead anyway.

 

In another case, a 30-year-old patient with severe head trauma was declared brain dead by two doctors. Preparations were made to excise his organs. The on-call anesthesiologist noted that the beating-heart cadaver was breathing spontaneously, but the declaring physicians said that because he was not going to recover he could be declared dead. The harvest proceeded over the objections of the anesthesiologist, who saw the donor move and react to the scalpel with hypertension that had to be treated. It was in vain since the proposed liver recipient died before he could get the organ, which went untransplanted."

 

I agree that Elsie's family sounds very loving and I am sure they will do what they believe to be right. I have a hard time trusting the transplant industry.

 

ETA: And with that, I'll bow out. I don't want to take goldberry's thread too far off course.

This is probably more appropriate for a separate thread but this http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20161103-the-macabre-fate-of-beating-heart-corpses BBC article has a lot of information about this subject. It isn't overly pleasant reading though.

[Ausmumof3]

It is very sad.

 

As for their decisions- Having cared for my child in a vegetative state for years & seen his QOL & health decline (it's just inevitable.. Trach infections, constant vent issues, pneumonias, tube feeds, need for unavailable 24/7 nursing care making us prisoners in our home, etc) I can say I would never do that to a child or family again.

 

When there's really no hope, "I" feel we should let people pass on their own sooner, not later. I wish so much we could undo all the years we made him hang on by continuing life sustaining treatment.

:grouphug:

[maize]

Cord accidents make me feel sick. I was always so careful when my kids were young...fully aware of them as I had heard of a few in the papers.

 

Well we rented a house that had many full length blinds and cords reaching to the ground. I was always paranoid...rolling the cords up, tying them and putting them up on the rod and never opening the blinds.

 

One day I was sitting at the kitchen table and I noticed a cord had fallen down and untied. It was so close to me if I leaned over I could touch it. I told myself as soon as I finished lunch I would get up and fix it straight away. My then 18 month old DS toddled past me and as he passed the cord he totally randomly reached out, grabbed it and swung it. It had a weight on the end so it swung out and wrapped around his neck three times before tangling itself into a knot at the throat. I was on my feet in seconds but it was so tight I couldnt get it undone and my DS was struggling which pulled it tighter and his face was going deep red. I had to lift him off his feet to reduce the tension and right next to me was a pair of the kids craft scissors that I grabbed and cut the cord to free him because I could not untangle it while holding him up.

 

I could not believe how fast that happenned with me sitting right there and always being so careful to keep them away from the kids. After that they were all doubly secured out of reach and the next time we moved into a rental we chose a place that had modern blinds where the cords are secured at the base and have a snap feature if they are pulled on.

 

Seconds people...it takes seconds.

 

Wow, that is so scary. I have often wondered how these cord entanglements happen; thank you for sharing your story.

[goldberry]

This is probably more appropriate for a separate thread but this http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20161103-the-macabre-fate-of-beating-heart-corpses BBC article has a lot of information about this subject. It isn't overly pleasant reading though.

 

Horribly serious subject, but this quote...    :blink:

 

Early attempts to test for signs of life included attaching pincers to nipples 

 

That's a great article though.

Edited November 29, 2016 by goldberry

[shawthorne44]

It was a great article.   It also explains why so many people used to be buried alive.   My mother has a fear of being buried alive and she's made us promise to have every test done on her.  

[Georgiana Daniels]

This is probably more appropriate for a separate thread but this http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20161103-the-macabre-fate-of-beating-heart-corpses BBC article has a lot of information about this subject. It isn't overly pleasant reading though.

 

Oh, wow.....you think you have answers but it leads to more questions. When one of our family members passed several years ago, I wondered if she was actually dead before they declared her dead, or if she was dead when her heart stopped beating. So hard to know, and heartbreaking either way.

 

[Annie G]

Hilltop mom,  :grouphug:

[TeenagerMom]

So, so sad.  :(  

 

There is another aspect to this that is bothering me, though. I read through the updates on her parents' Go Fund Me page. Elsie has brain damage and has been having seizures. However, she has responded to pinching and to her parents' voices. When her parents sang to her, her heart rate dropped. She coughs. She can breathe on her own.

 

Her parents have said they have met with the hospital organ donation team and are planning on donating her organs. This bothers me because she is not dead, even if her condition is worsening. She's not even "brain dead," according to the information that has been shared with the public. 

 

I have the deepest sympathy for her parents and sincerely hope that they are not being pressured into this decision.  :(

 

ETA: I've been noticing more and more of these type of situations in the news in the past year or so. It makes me very concerned for the rights of the disabled.

 

It has since been updated that she is no longer breathing over the ventilator and declining as was predicted.  We experienced much of the same thing when my sister was in a horrific accident (she was a pedestrian hit by a car).  The first 24 hours had a little hope, then her body stopped regulating temps on its own, movement became reflex only, then within 72 hours, her brain stem stopped functioning.

 

The transplant team was on standby for the last 48 hours.  We knew when she stopped regulating temps that was probably the end.  When you are there....where you see it.....it's a whole different thing.  Even if we had managed to keep her alive, she would've been a vegetable with no chance of recovery. She would never have chosen to live that way. Ever.

[Georgiana Daniels]

It has since been updated that she is no longer breathing over the ventilator and declining as was predicted.  We experienced much of the same thing when my sister was in a horrific accident (she was a pedestrian hit by a car).  The first 24 hours had a little hope, then her body stopped regulating temps on its own, movement became reflex only, then within 72 hours, her brain stem stopped functioning.

 

The transplant team was on standby for the last 48 hours.  We knew when she stopped regulating temps that was probably the end.  When you are there....where you see it.....it's a whole different thing.  Even if we had managed to keep her alive, she would've been a vegetable with no chance of recovery. She would never have chosen to live that way. Ever.

 

:grouphug:

[Spryte]

Hugs, so many tragedies.

 

On organ donation - the doctors have to talk to the family early. It's not meant to be distasteful or to intimidate, or pressure family. If they don't have these discussions early enough - the organs that could be donated deteriorate and can't be. And that can be totally fine, if that's what the family wants, or if they can't make up their minds in time - it's ok. But if they are a family that truly wants to donate organs, as much as possible, then those discussions have to take place, and before a person has passed. It stinks. It's morbid, and heart wrenching. I have been on both sides - the side making choices to donate or not, and the side waiting

 

I have posted many times about my best friend in my school years. She died while on the transplant list. We had two near misses with matches. Once, family members could not be reached (that little organ donation box on a driver's license is not sufficient), and the other time the family desperately wanted to donate, but they delayed the decision so long that the needed organ was not useable. IIRC, they did donate her corneas. My friend's child lost his mom a few weeks after that.

 

It's sad, whatever happens.