I need a gentle, experienced hs mom's perspective on this math problem

[Tiramisu]

Dd is getting way too frustrated in math this year. She's using Singapore US ed. 5A. She's doing it but the level of stress it's causing makes me question if I need to intervene and offer her a less intense option.

 

It could be the next topic is less stressful and this problem will spontaneously resolve.

 

Background info: She is actually good at math but writing issues have been confirmed by an OT. I suspect spatial disgraphia. Anything she can do in her head is no problem and she has good working memory, but she's getting to the point of doing multi-step problems with really big numbers and she needs to write it down. Her spacing in writing is wacky, and errors inevitably pop up. She freaks out if I try to get involved by offering to use a white board, scribing for her, or having her use graph paper. She really wants to do it herself.

[regentrude]

 She freaks out if I try to get involved by offering to use a white board, scribing for her, or having her use graph paper. She really wants to do it herself.

 

Make a point of emphasizing that she should do it herself and that all you do is giving her some tools to do so more efficiently.

For us, math is always done on graph paper. That helps being neat.

Show her how to write her math: one equation only per line, equal signs underneath (ETA for clarification: underneath one another, that is)

Offer her the white board. Tell her that's how I get my college students to do their problems: having them stand in front of a blackboard, with chalk. That way, anything incorrect can be erased, and it is not as frustrating as erasing on paper.

Maybe let her take a picture with the phone or table of a beautifullly written white board problem- she may balk at the white board because it is not permanent and she is afraid of not having a record of her work. Tell her my students snap pictures of the board so they can copy it into their notebooks at their leisure.

 

I absolutely think this IS a hill to die on. Even if you change math programs, she needs to learn how to write down math, and now is a good time.

Oh, and offer her colored markers and pencils. That often helps. Math can even be sparkly :)

Edited October 14, 2016 by regentrude

[OneStepAtATime]

She wants to do it herself but she won't use graph paper?  Honestly, graph paper might be the best option but if she isn't willing to even try it... hmmmm.

 

I know for me graph paper actually hurts my eyes but for DD it has been a huge help in keeping things lined up.  Maybe there is something else she could search the internet for that would help her keep things lined up that wouldn't require you.  Maybe ask her, when she is very calm, to do her own research to find a solution?

[OneStepAtATime]

Make a point of emphasizing that she should do it herself and that all you do is giving her some tools to do so more efficiently.

For us, math is always done on graph paper. That helps being neat.

Show her how to write her math: one equation only per line, equal signs underneath.

Offer her the white board. Tell her that's how I get my college students to do their problems: having them stand in front of a blackboard, with chalk. That way, anything incorrect can be erased, and it is not as frustrating as erasing on paper.

Maybe let her take a picture with the phone or table of a beautifullly written white board problem- she may balk at the white board because it is not permanent and she is afraid of not having a record of her work. Tell her my students snap pictures of the board so they can copy it into their notebooks at their leisure.

 

I absolutely think this IS a hill to die on. Even if you change math programs, she needs to learn how to write down math, and now is a good time.

Oh, and offer her colored markers and pencils. That often helps. Math can even be sparkly :)

Good suggestions.

 

And there are some great erasable pens out there, too.  I don't see pencil marks that well and graph paper makes my eyes hurt but if I can write in pen I do much better for math.  DD does, too.  Maybe she would like to use really good erasable pens on the graph paper?  She could pick different colors to use.

[Jess4879]

What about having her do the work in an Excel spreadsheet?   You can adjust the columns to resemble graph paper and she can print off her work when she's done.

[ikslo]

:bigear:

 

 

Show her how to write her math: one equation only per line, equal signs underneath.

 

 

What do you mean by this?  Aren't equal signs part of the equation?  Maybe this is the missing piece to help my son, but I have no idea what you mean. 

 

[regentrude]

What do you mean by this?  Aren't equal signs part of the equation?  Maybe this is the missing piece to help my son, but I have no idea what you mean. 

 

The equal sign is part of the equation.

"a=b" is the equation.

Now many students want to continue

"a=b=c=d" and so on, often making operations between the equal signs that cause the quantity on the left and the right not, in fact, to be equal to one another.

So, students should write:

a=b

c=d

e=f

and align the equal signs so they are all underneath one another.

Sorry I was unclear.

[ikslo]

The equal sign is part of the equation.

"a=b" is the equation.

Now many students want to continue

"a=b=c=d" and so on, often making operations between the equal signs that cause the quantity on the left and the right not, in fact, to be equal to one another.

So, students should write:

a=b

c=d

e=f

and align the equal signs so they are all underneath one another.

Sorry I was unclear.

 

No, that was helpful.  I see what you mean now.  Thanks!

[HomeAgain]

If she absolutely doesn't want to use graph paper (though I would introduce her to the idea that some places require it, like my son's college level classes), have her turn notebook paper sideways.  It doesn't seem as....rigid...as graph paper, but it keeps the numbers lined up in neat columns.

[wendyroo]

ModMath?

[MerryAtHope]

What would she think of lined notebook paper turned sideways instead of graph paper? (Sideways so that the lines become columns).

 

Have you tried different sizes of graph paper? (ie, find out why she doesn't like it and maybe smaller boxes or bigger boxes would work better)

 

How about a conversation like this: "I've noticed that sometimes it's difficult to keep all the numbers straight when you have to do problems with lots of steps. Let's brainstorm some tools that might help you. I know you haven't liked using graph paper in the past. Do you have an idea of a tool you might like instead?"

 

Get her in on thinking through what kind of solution she might like. You might be able to ask her what she doesn't like about graph paper (maybe the color of lines or size of boxes), whether she'd like just columns instead (like the notebook paper idea), or maybe some other solution. 

 

Maybe the boxes on graph paper make her eyes kind of dizzy, but something like columns where every other one is lightly shaded would be easier on the eyes? (Like this for example). You could make up some variations fairly easily using the Table format in MS Word. 

 

I did have to walk my kids physically through how to write math problems (IE, writing the number of a problem down, putting the numbers on a line instead of squeezing more in as if the paper wasn't lined, putting things in columns instead of randomly on the page, leaving a full line space blank between each problem set, and so on). 

[Elizabeth 2]

If you need both the graphs and white board, use tape on a board to make a grid. Or a lighter sharpie. Standing to use a board can sometimes help to involve the whole body and lessen hand tension since you can use large markers instead of small.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Those Frixion pens....LIFE SAVER

 

Those are the magical erasable pens.  A bit expensive, but worth every penny.

 

 

[OneStepAtATime]

Those Frixion pens....LIFE SAVER

 

Those are the magical erasable pens. A bit expensive, but worth every penny.

I bought some on your rec and I love them. So does Dd Edited October 14, 2016 by OneStepAtATime

[MotherGoose]

What size graph paper?  I got my dd 1 cm graph paper and it;s working fine, the typical graph paper would have been way too small. 

[daijobu]

Green engineering pads of paper are a nice compromise.  The gridlines are printed on the back of the paper, so they are more subtle and easy to ignore if you don't need them.  But they are a life saver when graphing.

 

My dd doesn't have dysgraphia, so there isn't the sensitivity, but we've always fallen into the habit of my transcribing the AoPS problems as she attempts to solve them.  (She solves the exercises herself.)  It allows me to model good documentation of problem-solving (lining up the equals signs, no sloppy equations that run into one another and morph into non-equations).  

 

 

[daijobu]

I searched the web to see if anyone else has complained and labeled the type of problem solving documentation error, and I found it.  It's called the Stream of Consciousness Equality, which is on a list of Common Errors in College Math.  

 

"Stream-of-consciousness equalities and implications. (My thanks to H. G. Mushenheim for identifying this type of error and suggesting a name for it.) This is an error in the intermediate steps in students' computations. It doesn't often lead to an erroneous final result at the end of that computation, but it is tremendously irritating to the mathematician who must grade the student's paper. It may also lead to a loss of partial credit, if the student makes some other error in his or her computation and the grader is then unable to decipher the student's work because of this stream-of-consciousness error.

 

To put it simply: Some students (especially college freshmen) use the equals sign (=) as a symbol for the word "then" or the phrase "the next step is." For instance, when asked to find the third derivative of x4+7x2–5, some students will write "x4+7x2–5 = 4x3+14x = 12x2+14 = 24x." Of course, those four expressions are not actually equal to one another.

 

A slight variant of this error consists of connecting several different equations with equal signs, where the intermediate equals signs are intended to convey "equivalent to" --- for example, x = y – 3 = x+3 = y. This is very confusing and altogether wrong, because equality is transitive --- i.e., if a=b and b=c then a=c, but x certainly is not equal to x+3. It would be better to replace that middle equals sign with some other symbol.

 

The most obvious symbol for this purpose is ≡, which means "is equivalent to," but that symbol has the disadvantage of looking too much like an equals sign, and thus possibly leading to the same confusion. Thus, a better choice would be ↔ or ⇔, both of which mean "if and only if." Thus, I would rewrite the example above as x = y – 3 ⇔ x+3 = y.

 

There is also a more "advanced" form of this error. Some more advanced students (e.g., college seniors) use the implication symbol (⇒) as a symbol for the phrase "the next step is." A string of statements of the form

A ⇒ B ⇒ C ⇒ D
should mean that A by itself implies B, and B by itself implies C, and C by itself implies D; that is the coventional interpretation given by mathematicians. But some students use such a string to mean merely that if we start from A, then the next step in our reasoning is B (using not only A but other information as well) and then the next step is C (perhaps using both A and B), etc.

 

Actually, there is a symbol for "the next step is." It looks like this: [image:  symbol for leads to] It is also called "leads to," and in the LaTeX formatting language it is given by the code \leadsto. However, I haven't seen it used very often."

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

My son is in 5b, and starting in 5, we stopped using the WB to work in and all work is done on graph paper.  He must follow a very specific format that I have taped to the inside of his notebook for reference:

 

(the graph paper here has no margins, so he does the following)

 

Draw a left margin one ruler width wide

Draw a top margin one ruler width wide

Divide the remaining area in half to create two columns, using a double line wide enough to write problem numbers in

Full name, date, page number in top margin

Problem numbers in left and middle margins, working down first column, then continuing in second column, then going to the next page if necessary (same formatting)

 

Transcribe original problem from book.  Solve, showing work in steps underneath.

Box answer

 

When we get to a new type of problem, I will show him what the work should look like.  

 

He uses a cheap Bic mechanical pencil for math, so it's always sharp.  We do use the Frixion pens mentioned up thread for other things and I confirm their awesomeness.  :-)  

 

Occasionally, when he's not sure how to do a word problem, he will work it on the whiteboard then once he can see he's on the right path, he'll transcribe onto his page.  Much easier to erase and move things around on the whiteboard!  

 

Given your daughter's possible dysgraphia issues, I hope you can find a non-math time to sit down and discuss and help her find a solution!  As someone else said, this is not a math curriculum problem per se, this is needing to find an accommodation for math regardless of curriculum.  

[Tiramisu]

Thanks for all the suggestions.

 

I copied the next lessons on to loose leaf paper sideways. I appreciate that suggestion.

 

The graph paper I have won't work so I'all need to find one with bigger boxes. My eyes bug out with the squares and I think her visual issues are worse than mine. And she can't write small enough. Alas, legibility is a major problems always.

 

I'm going to try to find a notebook with bigger squares. I'd love a link if anyone has an idea.

 

Working with her yesterday, she misread signs. Dh caught her doing the same thing. Time to get her eyes checked again. She had VT last year and the optometrist noted an unusual physical finding in her eyes that we agreed to watch. So I think it's time.

 

And those pens sound great for me. Unfortunately, things like that won't work for her. She also can't be bribed at all, so she's been the toughest kid of all of mine to work with.

 

I wait for a good time and gently bring up, "What can we do to make this situation better?, and other things like that, but she refuses to talk.

 

Otherwise, she's a great kid, bright, fun, compliant, but she's like a brick wall when it comes to writing.

Edited October 16, 2016 by Tiramisu

[ikslo]

ModMath?

Thank you!

[Tanaqui]

Regarding "stream of consciousness error", I've taken to reminding the girls "The equals sign does not mean 'Look out! Here comes the answer!'"

[LEK]

We have been using a dry erase board with 1cm squares on it, combo between graph paper and a white board. I find that is best here as the squares help you keep things in line and everything is more easily able to be erased.

[MotherGoose]

https://www.hand2mind.com/pdf/gridpaper.pdf Will this help? Otherwise google free printable graph paper in the size you need.

[MerryAtHope]

Check this link for graph paper--you can choose different sizes of squares--lots of choices you can print and get the one just right for her.

Edited October 16, 2016 by MerryAtHope

[PeterPan]

I would hire a tutor and remove yourself from it.  The rigidity and anxiety coming out as those behaviors is something that needs sort of an objective, more distant voice at that point.  

[Tiramisu]

I would hire a tutor and remove yourself from it. The rigidity and anxiety coming out as those behaviors is something that needs sort of an objective, more distant voice at that point.

Yes. She has some rigidity, not a lot, and it usually doesn't affect life. I would love to get a tutor, but they cost $60 an hour. That would be the best solution, I think. I wish I had another mom to switch off with.

[PeterPan]

Maybe keep shopping around?  Our college student is $15 an hour.  

[Tiramisu]

I can keep my eyes open but I'd be afraid I'd have to teach a college student myself to make sure he did what I needed. To be honest, I'm fussy about math and I would need to know how they approach math before I'd let him talk math with her. I don't know if that makes sense but I had to clean up a mess after someone else taught her math for a while in the early years in a way that undermined conceptual thinking.

[J-rap]

I wonder if anything would change if you cut back on the number of questions she does.  When we used Singapore math, I'd often just assign half the problems.  Not necessarily every other one, but I'd pick and choose some in each section.  One of my daughters was just a very slow worker and would get overwhelmed and careless with all the problems.  I started cutting back, and she began being more careful and accurate.  As long as I knew she was understanding each new concept taught, we continued like that.  If she was struggling, then we'd work on it together and do the ones that she had skipped the first time.

[freelylearned]

Oh, my son is a spatial dysgraphic and he had the same resistance to graph paper. It seems to me that since the age that spatial dsygraphia becomes evident is about the same time that growth spurts and hormones and other puberty issues begin happening. Given the age, any change to accommodate dysgraphia is just really hard on top of everything else.

 

When I finally taught him to use graph paper for math, it made a big difference. I finally convinced him to give it a try by pointing out that the types of math problems he was doing in Singapore 5A and B, I didn't do until 7th grade. I explained that 7th grade was the first year we had to buy graph paper for math class (I left out the part that we only used it for graphing). For math, you need tools and those tools include a ruler, protractor, compass, and graph paper. That's just how math is. I also told him how in college, a lot of my engineering and science major friends only used graph paper across the board. It was simply a tool for their subjects and they didn't see the need to buy a different type of paper for their English classes.

 

Doane paper is really interesting because it has a slight grid over lined paper. It's kind of cool looking, and your daughter might respond better to it than graph paper. 

 

I find that with Singapore, if we can just get to the next topic, everything smooths right out. The other thing I do with math, when it gets too sensitive is to hand over the teacher's guide and let my son do his own correcting. I give him a red, erasable pencil and tell him that if he gets one wrong, he has to use the pencil to make the corrections he needs to make to get to the correct answer. Then he sees when he gets the wrong answer because of misalignment. And, go figure, he usually thanks me when I let him correct his own work. He likes that way better than me pointing out, so nicely, that the 8 was supposed to be under the 6 not the 4.

 

[trulycrabby]

My advice is to make your own vertically-lined paper. I use heavyweight paper because my SP student likes the feel of it:

 

https://www.amazon.com/NATIONAL-Proof-20-lb-Book-20121/dp/B000OFJTRQ/ref=sr_1_1?s=office-products&ie=UTF8&qid=1476743361&sr=1-1&keywords=National+rip+proof+paper

 

 

The one you make will be your template, so just then make (many) copies of it for her to use.

[trulycrabby]

Oh, my son is a spatial dysgraphic and he had the same resistance to graph paper. It seems to me that since the age that spatial dsygraphia becomes evident is about the same time that growth spurts and hormones and other puberty issues begin happening. Given the age, any change to accommodate dysgraphia is just really hard on top of everything else.

 

When I finally taught him to use graph paper for math, it made a big difference. I finally convinced him to give it a try by pointing out that the types of math problems he was doing in Singapore 5A and B, I didn't do until 7th grade. I explained that 7th grade was the first year we had to buy graph paper for math class (I left out the part that we only used it for graphing). For math, you need tools and those tools include a ruler, protractor, compass, and graph paper. That's just how math is. I also told him how in college, a lot of my engineering and science major friends only used graph paper across the board. It was simply a tool for their subjects and they didn't see the need to buy a different type of paper for their English classes.

 

Doane paper is really interesting because it has a slight grid over lined paper. It's kind of cool looking, and your daughter might respond better to it than graph paper.

 

I find that with Singapore, if we can just get to the next topic, everything smooths right out. The other thing I do with math, when it gets too sensitive is to hand over the teacher's guide and let my son do his own correcting. I give him a red, erasable pencil and tell him that if he gets one wrong, he has to use the pencil to make the corrections he needs to make to get to the correct answer. Then he sees when he gets the wrong answer because of misalignment. And, go figure, he usually thanks me when I let him correct his own work. He likes that way better than me pointing out, so nicely, that the 8 was supposed to be under the 6 not the 4.

Thank you very much! I am not the OP, but your post and the Doane Paper suggestion is very helpful. :)

[Guest]

Check this link for graph paper--you can choose different sizes of squares--lots of choices you can print and get the one just right for her.

Yes! Just generate the size of squares you need - no shame in needing 2 squares per inch instead of four or five.

[kesmom]

My oldest is doing 5A right now too and we have some of the same issues. For the first time I'm teaching her to do some of the textbook pages on notebook paper.  She doesn't have any handwriting/dysgraphia issues and it's still been a big struggle!

 

We do use a small white board sometimes, with ultra-fine tip markers. I like the idea of taking pictures of the work. We might try that and keep a notebook on the ipad. 

[Tiramisu]

My oldest is doing 5A right now too and we have some of the same issues. For the first time I'm teaching her to do some of the textbook pages on notebook paper. She doesn't have any handwriting/dysgraphia issues and it's still been a big struggle!

 

We do use a small white board sometimes, with ultra-fine tip markers. I like the idea of taking pictures of the work. We might try that and keep a notebook on the ipad.

This really makes me feel a lot better. Thank you for sharing!

[Shellydon]

Graph paper isn't optional here. 

[Tiramisu]

Graph paper isn't optional here.

I'm so thankful for the link Merry shared because the regular graph paper of tiny blue squares could never work. The blue boxes are horrible for people with visual issues and they are too small for most kids with dysgraphia. I made nice big sqares in a light gray color and it has made a such a difference.

[MerryAtHope]

So glad that helped! I prefer the gray lines too!

[birchbark]

There's also dotted paper, which I find easier on the eyes. But my kids always prefer doing their work on a lap-sized whiteboard, with a fine-tip marker. I like the suggestion of taking pictures of the work.

 

FWIW, we got pretty frustrated with Singapore in the 5's, and bailed. :)

[Tiramisu]

There's also dotted paper, which I find easier on the eyes. But my kids always prefer doing their work on a lap-sized whiteboard, with a fine-tip marker. I like the suggestion of taking pictures of the work.

 

FWIW, we got pretty frustrated with Singapore in the 5's, and bailed. :)

 

After we finish 5A, I'm going to re-evaluate. I feel like I'm putting a lot of work into this to make it work, when something else could probably do the same job more easily. In the earlier years, I really found Singapore had such a great conceptual approach compared to other programs but with what I'm seeing at this level, it's really not all that different from other things out there, except the word problems. I went ahead and bought a used-but-not-written-in 5B workbook to look at for less than $5 including shipping. I'll see how I feel about it.

 

I have Saxon on my shelf and she could easily jump into 76 after 5A, but I'd have to continue to transcribe onto the graph paper, unless I bought the adaptation workbook.

 

I also love, love, love CLE, but she had a bad experience with that in the early years with someone else teaching and she would not look forward to trying it again.

 

But for today, I am very happy. Math has been getting done so much more smoothly and with fewer errors with the printable graph paper with big boxes and light gray lines.

[Targhee]

We had a bit of the same when my dd was doing Singapore 5 - same thing, as she really needs to do multi-step but she is so accustomed to doing it in her head, and writing/fine motor issues...

 

I agree with graphs paper, though it took two years before she appreciated how handy it is and chose to use it instead of me insisting on it. Don't use the composition notebooks with the super bright blue lines - ugh! They are visually overwhelming. The Mead 5 star graph notebooks are pricier but they are more subdued.

 

In the beginning I required *some* of her work to be written out - maybe 1 of every 5 multi-step problem. She also began to see the usefulness of this and chose to write things out.

 

Also try those frixon pens - DD loves them! They write easily (like a marker on white board) and the erase cleanly.

 

She still hates writing. She will spend hours coding latex to make her solutions look beautiful for her AOPS classes, but would absolutely DIE if she had to write them out.