Online college education in the trenches

[G5052]

I've related before what it's like being an online professor at a community college.

 

I started a new section Monday. Initially I had 32 students. This is a class that sophomores in IT take. A few others, but primarily IT majors. It is an accelerated 8-week session (i.e. drinking from a fire hose).

 

I began with 32 students. By Friday I had 30.

 

Their first assignment was due Thursday and the second Saturday. Nine students have completed those (less than 1/3).

 

If I don't get both of those assignments from the remaining 21 for partial credit, they will be dropped on Wednesday.

 

Any bets on how many students I'll have left? Everyone talks about online education being the greatest in higher education, but my experience is that the vast majority shouldn't be doing it.

 

Hello Week 2!

 

 

[MarkT]

I am not a big fan of accelerated 8-week session courses.  I think many of the students who signed up expected 1/2 the overall work of a full semester course. Drinking from a fire hose is hard work.

 

That is why for the most part I think AP ( one semester course over 30 weeks) is a better deal for most high school students versus DE.

[TammyS]

Could the partial credit be part of the problem?  I know plenty of students that will skate through and consistently do late work for partial credit to just pass a course.  I wonder if they would perform differently if they were just dropped the day they failed to turn in the assignment (sincerely, this is a not a criticism, this is just me wondering out loud)?

[Crimson Wife]

This is my 5th semester in my online 2nd bachelor's. The 2 semesters I attempted to take a FT course load of 4 courses, it wound up being too overwhelming and I had to drop the 4th course. I dropped the courses with assignment deadlines looming that I knew I'd never be able to make. That's what responsible students do when they bite off more than they can chew. I hope my professors wouldn't judge me for dropping to a courseload that I am able to handle with the demands of raising 3 kids including one with multiple disabilities.

 

OTOH, making the professor drop the student from a course due to failure to turn in assignments IS being irresponsible. The student should be proactive in dropping a course when he/she is not able to complete the requirements.

 

 

[The Girls' Mom]

I think a lot of students just aren't cut out for online classes.  You have to be very self-motivated to get it done, and done well.  I'm taking three online classes right now, and one hybrid 5-week class that meets once a week with the rest done online.  The short-session classes can be brutal.  I'm glad they are offered, but I think students should really think about what they are committing to! lol.  

I also have to admit...I dropped another 5-week hybrid class this year.  It was mostly because I was disappointed in the content and how it was presented (it was a lit class), but also partially because I spaced on an assignment that was due online and it would have meant a guaranteed B in that class instead of the A I knew I could get.

 

 

 

[Guest]

My son took an 8 week CC summer science course, not online. The difficulty was always that the test covered material from the day before. Students who had not taken the high school version did not complete.

Edited October 2, 2016 by Heigh Ho

[regentrude]

I teach both in seat and online sections for the same course. The biggest problem the online students self-report is that they have trouble focusing when they are at the computer. I am not surprised.

I also suspect that there is a certain negative self selection happening: students who don't want to put in much work are more likely to enroll in online section because it is falsely perceived as easier. Not having to be in  certain place at a certain time sounds alluring, but many students don't have the discipline to manage without it.

Not a fan of online. I am glad the option is there, because some students really benefit - if they have time conflicts, disabilities, a long commute, family responsibilities. But for the majority, it is inferior to in seat instruction, and the big push towards online education is misguided.

Edited October 2, 2016 by regentrude

[G5052]

OTOH, making the professor drop the student from a course due to failure to turn in assignments IS being irresponsible. The student should be proactive in dropping a course when he/she is not able to complete the requirements.

 

The policy requiring professors to drop students was a bit of a shock to me when I was going through my orientation. My response was -- REALLY?

 

This school (a state community college BTW) has a huge online program (600 professors in just the online part), and offered me better classes and the ability to work entirely from home. With DH's medical issues I need that. They also pay better.

Edited October 3, 2016 by G5052

[TechWife]

 

That is why for the most part I think AP ( one semester course over 30 weeks) is a better deal for most high school students versus DE.

 

My complaint with the AP format is that if it takes a high school student a year to cover the same material a college student covers in a semester, then the high school student isn't really performing on a college level. It's an artificial scenario. When combined with the fact that colleges aren't required to give credit for any AP exams, compared to dual enrollment, where agreements to do just that are usually in place, it makes dual enrollment a better measure of whether or not a student is really doing college level work. 

[G5052]

I also suspect that there is a certain negative self selection happening: students who don't want to put in much work are more likely to enroll in online section because it is falsely perceived as easier. Not having to be in  certain place at a certain time sounds alluring, but many students don't have the discipline to manage without it.

 

Not a fan of online. I am glad the option is there, because some students really benefit - if they have time conflicts, disabilities, a long commute, family responsibilities. But for the majority, it is inferior to in seat instruction, and the big push towards online education is misguided.

 

This section is a speciality class not offered at every campus. And some of the students in this class started locally, but have since left the area and are finishing up their degree. I have three students who are overseas and one who is many states away in this section. This college offers so many online classes that you can do that. For a motivated student, it's an opportunity they'd miss otherwise.

 

But WOW. I didn't teach with them in the spring because DH had multiple surgeries, but seeing a gradebook of zeros got me again.

Edited October 3, 2016 by G5052

[Bluegoat]

One of the universities in my province decided around 20 years ago to transform itself into a sort of technology based learning experience.  They were one of the first here to really offer everything online, access to notes, lectures, as many classes as possible offered as distance ed, and so on, access to marks and profs online, and so on.  A very nice computer came with every tuition package and the whole campus was revampted to make it possible to hook up anywhere.

 

At the time it was felt this would become a big selling point and allow them to offer a better education, but it never seems to have panned out that way.  They aren't quite like a university that is mainly an online experience with not much of a campus, they still maintained all that and claimed to offer a "university experience".  But people are just not so enthralled, and then in some subjects it was never really possible to make it work much at all (like the music department.)

 

And it made it very expensive for the students.

 

As a humanities person. I've never thought that online courses were a really good option - they can work for some and be great when there are serious barriers like distance, but I don't think it's possible to replicate the personal/interpersonal aspect of good humanities instruction which is in many ways as important as content. 

[Mom22ns]

While my kids both prefer seated classes they have both taken online courses at times for varying reasons. Dd finds courses that are distasteful to her (boring) are easier to complete online when you don't have to listen to a profession drone on about something you don't care about. Ds finds courses where teachers give large amounts of information in lectures better online, because it forces the teachers to put all of that information in writing. He struggles with auditory processing, but remembers everything he reads. We have all noticed the attrition rate in online classes is greater than that in seated classes. The level of discipline required is higher. It is easy to not read all the instructions causing missed procedures and assignments.

 

I don't think online education is a great solution for most people most of the time. I love that it is an option and I think wise students can make it work for them. However, I think those who tout it as the end of classroom education are blind to its weaknesses, by choice or by ignorance.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I wonder if there is any difference in the amount of time people spend on in-class vs online courses.

 

You might have a student who would look at time spent in class and time spent online differently.  The online time might be mentally categorized as similar to time spent doing readings and homework solving, where the in-class time might be perceived as something other than the student's own time working on the material.

 

At the end of my kid's Lukeion Latin online classes there is a lot of emphasis placed on the next homework assignment.  But homework is much more student scheduled in college classes.  Sometimes it isn't graded at all.  Sometimes it is self paced.  Do it before the exam or get it done before the end of the course.  

 

I'm just speculating.  Does anyone know of research on this?

 

ETA:  It could also be that when students contemplate an online course, they aren't realistic about the amount of time they need to spend on the class.  Online might feel like it can just happen whenever they have time, without considering prep time and homework as well as the actual online instruction.

Edited October 3, 2016 by Sebastian (a lady)

[MarkT]

My complaint with the AP format is that if it takes a high school student a year to cover the same material a college student covers in a semester 1), then the high school student isn't really performing on a college level. It's an artificial scenario 2). When combined with the fact that colleges aren't required to give credit for any AP exams, compared to dual enrollment, where agreements to do just that are usually in place, it makes dual enrollment a better measure of whether or not a student is really doing college level work. 

1) That is my point, the student learns the college level material at their expected HS pace. Education is about learning.

2) My son is a Junior in high school - he does not need to learn at the same pace as a college freshman. He is taking four AP classes along with two non AP classes and a SAT/ACT prep class instead of study hall. He is busy enough.

 

  I repeat  Education is about learning.

 

The elite colleges not giving AP credit are the same institutions also not giving CC transfer credit (where most DE occurs). 

 

 

[if the college level material covered in the AP syllabus does not academically equal the corresponding typical State U course then that needs to be fixed by the College Board.]

[Kassia]

My complaint with the AP format is that if it takes a high school student a year to cover the same material a college student covers in a semester, then the high school student isn't really performing on a college level. It's an artificial scenario. 

 

I'm not a fan of AP for many reasons, but some AP tests give credit for more than one college class.  I'm thinking of Spanish, U.S. History, and Calculus BC.  There might be others, but those are the ones that first come to my mind.  So, a Calculus BC class could be taught at the same pace as an actual college class.  

[SparklyUnicorn]

My kid switched from the live class to the on-line class this semester because he said he couldn't understand the teacher (like literally could not make out what he was saying) and none of the other time slots worked for him.  It's working very well for him, but it's a math class so not much interaction.  You do the assignments almost entirely at your own pace.  Does he have the discipline for that?  Well I don't know, but he has me on his tail so.  LOL

 

 

Edited October 3, 2016 by SparklyUnicorn

[MarkT]

I've done my entire second degree online. It's fantastic. It can definitely work, particularly if the course is high quality (mine was the same as the on-campus degree, only difference was in method of delivery) and if lecturers/tutors understand they have real students out there, and make a effort to include and respond to their online students. 

 

I am spoiled at my university. It's been providing distance education for many, many years, and it is very very good. I have awesome lecturers who are highly responsive to their off campus students. 

 

I do think mature age students tend to do better at online education.

 

I'm certainly glad it's an option, because it's just wrong, imo, to limit tertiary education to adults who are able to be on campus. My university is 8 hours away, so there's literally no way I could study on campus, homeschool and parent. 

Just curious were most classes the normal semester/quarter pace or were they accelerated?

[TechWife]

I'm not a fan of AP for many reasons, but some AP tests give credit for more than one college class.  I'm thinking of Spanish, U.S. History, and Calculus BC.  There might be others, but those are the ones that first come to my mind.  So, a Calculus BC class could be taught at the same pace as an actual college class.  

 

AP classes and tests don't give college credit. It is up to each individual university which tests they will grant credit for, their minimum required score and from which students they will accept scores for credit. Some universities don't grant credit for any AP exam scores, some are quite liberal and some have a limit of one type or another. AP courses aren't a guarantee of success on an AP exam and a successful AP exam is not a guarantee that the student will earn any college credit. 

 

In contrast, many community colleges have agreements with universities that ahead of time which courses will transfer and what the course equivalent is a the university that the student will receive credit for upon completion of the the community college course. Before the student enrolls in the course, they know if the course will transfer, which universities it will transfer to and the minimum grade required to transfer. 

[TechWife]

1) That is my point, the student learns the college level material at their expected HS pace. Education is about learning.

2) My son is a Junior in high school - he does not need to learn at the same pace as a college freshman. He is taking four AP classes along with two non AP classes and a SAT/ACT prep class instead of study hall. He is busy enough.

 

  I repeat  Education is about learning.

 

The elite colleges not giving AP credit are the same institutions also not giving CC transfer credit (where most DE occurs). 

 

 

[if the college level material covered in the AP syllabus does not academically equal the corresponding typical State U course then that needs to be fixed by the College Board.]

 

Yes  - they are learning at their expected pace, they are learning college level material,  but they are not performing at a college level. Pace is an important difference between high school and college level work. 

 

There are many universities, not just the elite universities, that have a wide variety of guidelines as to what scores and tests they will accept for credit. The students usually don't know until after they have been admitted to the university and have their AP exam scores whether or not they have earned credit. 

 

In contrast, a dual enrollment student will know ahead of time which universities have transfer agreements in place and what the course equivalency is so that they can decide which courses to take and can know that the courses will transfer. 

 

Education is about learning, but don't kid yourself about the level of learning that is going on. 

[regentrude]

Yes  - they are learning at their expected pace, they are learning college level material,  but they are not performing at a college level. Pace is an important difference between high school and college level work. ...

Education is about learning, but don't kid yourself about the level of learning that is going on. 

 

I am very puzzled about the insistence on "pace" and equating it to "performing at college level".

The same course, with identical material covered, may be taught at a college over a 16 week semester or over an 8 week summer semester that moves ta twice the pace. Students are doing the same amount of work and receive the same credit. They don't get bonus points for going twice as fast in the summer.

College students tailor their work load by choosing how many courses to take. So instead of seven courses like in high school, they may only take 3 or 4. And maybe only 2 in the summer - sort of extreme  block scheduling, if you want.

 

In many courses, students also may request credit by examination and test out; they will not be asked how long it took them to master the material -  they will be given an exam, and if they pass, will be awarded credit for the course. Nobody gives a hoot how long it took them to learn the stuff. What is measured is that they learned it.

Edited October 3, 2016 by regentrude

[regentrude]

My complaint with the AP format is that if it takes a high school student a year to cover the same material a college student covers in a semester, then the high school student isn't really performing on a college level. It's an artificial scenario. When combined with the fact that colleges aren't required to give credit for any AP exams, compared to dual enrollment, where agreements to do just that are usually in place, it makes dual enrollment a better measure of whether or not a student is really doing college level work. 

 

I commented on the issue of "pace" in another post, but want to comment on the bolded:

There is no standard what constitutes "college level work". There are college courses that challenge the brightest, most ambitious students to the brink of their abilities - and there are college courses that remediate shortcomings from high school and are easier than many high school classes. 

Dual enrollment only is a measure if you know the reputation and rigor of the college, the syllabus, assignments and grading curve. The differences between the level of a course with the same title at different institutions is huge. I have much against AP, but the benefit is that it is standardized and the receiving college knows exactly what an AP exam score means.

Edited October 3, 2016 by regentrude

[TechWife]

The differences between the level of a course with the same title at different institutions is huge. I have much against AP, but the benefit is that it is standardized and the receiving college knows exactly what an AP exam score means.

 

I really do understand this. I think that's the benefit of the university system working with the community college system to determine what courses are transferrable in advance. I know it has resulted in more standardization across our state's community college system, which met with some opposition.

 

My son has also found that the same course with different instructors at the same university can be very different as well. I think the benefit of the university setting is that students can tailor their interests somewhat. For example, my son had to take a general Visual Literacy course. He was able to choose a professor from the industrial design program over a professor from the fine arts program, who was teaching another section.  He did this because he thought the professor might emphasize more of the topics he was personally interested in. From what he could determine talking to other industrial design students, he was correct in his estimation. In another course, that might not be the case - the professors might have a similar approach and emphasis. Same uni, same course, different profs can yield a different experience. The student, of course, has an opportunity to impact their experience as well. 

 

Overall, I'm not a big fan of standardized tests, and I'm sure that clouds my opinion of AP exams, so I'll definitely admit my bias! 

[TechWife]

I am very puzzled about the insistence on "pace" and equating it to "performing at college level".

The same course, with identical material covered, may be taught at a college over a 16 week semester or over an 8 week summer semester that moves ta twice the pace. Students are doing the same amount of work and receive the same credit. They don't get bonus points for going twice as fast in the summer.

College students tailor their work load by choosing how many courses to take. So instead of seven courses like in high school, they may only take 3 or 4. And maybe only 2 in the summer - sort of extreme  block scheduling, if you want.

 

In many courses, students also may request credit by examination and test out; they will not be asked how long it took them to master the material -  they will be given an exam, and if they pass, will be awarded credit for the course. Nobody gives a hoot how long it took them to learn the stuff. What is measured is that they learned it.

 

I'm sure my approach to pace is different than yours because I am not a professor, it's based on my life experience.

 

I think a student's ability to keep up with the pace of a course is a direct reflection of their critical thinking abilities. They have to make the right choices for the right combination of courses at any one time, of course. I coach my son on that concept regularly. But beyond that, in order to learn something, students must synthesize a lot of information. The speed at which one can do that varies, but generally speaking, the faster one synthesizes information, the deeper they are able to delve into a topic to understand it and the more material they can cover. A lot of students (again, from life observation) drop courses before or during mid-terms. They have figured out that for one reason or another, they are not keeping pace with the material. Their level of understanding lags behind the speed at which the class is moving. It could be due to external factors beyond the students' control, such as illness, or it could be due to the fact that the student simply can't keep up and will need extensive tutoring or even a change in the field of study. 

 

Does that make sense? 

[regentrude]

I'm sure my approach to pace is different than yours because I am not a professor, it's based on my life experience.

 

I think a student's ability to keep up with the pace of a course is a direct reflection of their critical thinking abilities. They have to make the right choices for the right combination of courses at any one time, of course. I coach my son on that concept regularly. But beyond that, in order to learn something, students must synthesize a lot of information. The speed at which one can do that varies, but generally speaking, the faster one synthesizes information, the deeper they are able to delve into a topic to understand it and the more material they can cover. A lot of students (again, from life observation) drop courses before or during mid-terms. They have figured out that for one reason or another, they are not keeping pace with the material. Their level of understanding lags behind the speed at which the class is moving. It could be due to external factors beyond the students' control, such as illness, or it could be due to the fact that the student simply can't keep up and will need extensive tutoring or even a change in the field of study. 

 

Does that make sense? 

 

It does make sense, but what is important is to consider the course in the context of the overall work load. Students who drop by mid term often have signed up for too many courses; they might have been able to keep up just fine if their overall class load were not as high. And some who drop simply do not have the discipline to put in the necessary amount of time on task. Underestimating the amount of time required is the most common cause for failure; students often do not realize that a full time class load corresponds to a 40+ hour work week. So the not keeping up is in many cases a failure to devote sufficient time. I don't think that in any given class the issue would be not being able to synthesize information fast enough, and I don't think anything would change for these students if, instead of four courses on a semester pace they would take eight courses on a year long pace.

[Janice in NJ]

1) That is my point, the student learns the college level material at their expected HS pace. Education is about learning.

2) My son is a Junior in high school - he does not need to learn at the same pace as a college freshman. He is taking four AP classes along with two non AP classes and a SAT/ACT prep class instead of study hall. He is busy enough.

 

  I repeat  Education is about learning.

 

The elite colleges not giving AP credit are the same institutions also not giving CC transfer credit (where most DE occurs). 

 

 

[if the college level material covered in the AP syllabus does not academically equal the corresponding typical State U course then that needs to be fixed by the College Board.]

 

I hear you regarding your high school junior, Mark. However, imagine if in the fall he could concentrate on two of the AP classes and one of the non AP classes. Juggling three things; three big things, to be sure - but still, only three. He might be as busy, but I suspect it wouldn't feel as busy. It might feel less disjointed, less chaotic. It might make it easier to learn. Focusing and then having to refocus to accommodate your five other mega-priorities is really tough. Certainly kids learn how to do it. But I'm not sure it sets them up to really get an education. IOW, sometimes I wonder if it builds/reinforces the wrong coping skills.

 

Just wondering...

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

 

P.S. Of course, my comments have nothing to do with online learning. And in the end, college credit is a stamp of what the student learned, not how they learned it. So it's a mute point. 

Edited October 4, 2016 by Janice in NJ

[Lanny]

If your students have not taken Distance Learning courses before, my guess is that very few of them will complete the course. Especially because it is accelerated.  It requires Time Management skills and Self Discipline that your students may not have.  Also, because it is accelerated, they ,may have severely under estimated the number of hours they would need to devote to your course, to be successful with it.   

[G5052]

Well, I ended up with 25 who completed the assignments required to stay in the course. That includes two who provided documented excuses which gave them a few extra days. That's a new record.

 

I'd like to think that adding some additional tips helped. The second assignment was to upload the folders for the website that is their project, and I gave them a list of common errors and how to fix them. I also warned them that if they couldn't get it from their computer, they might have to try another computer or even go to a campus computer lab.

 

They haven't cleared out the errant students yet though. I just got an email from a student asking why she had zeros. She logged in the first day (10 days ago) and did nothing else. That won't work for an accelerated 8-week class.

[Reefgazer]

I taught online biology for many years at the community college level.  I hated every minute of it, and abandoned that teaching venue for face to face teaching.  The fact that this is an 8-week course probably contributes to the horrific washout rate, but online courses have higher-than-average washout rates anyway.  Speaking very generally, I think online is one of the absolute worst ways to actually learn.  It's tough to maintain enthusiasm when it's just the student behind the computer.  I think many who sign up for this delivery mode think they will be able to swing it because they are already overwhelmed with life and think this mode will be manageable (um, no - if you are over-burdened already, you shouldn't be taking any class, let alone an independently-driven one).  There is little peer interaction that is not contrived (those pathetic discussion boards add little to the course or the student's learning), and the lack of face to face conversations cheats students of real interactions with people who have similar interests and who can start discussions on the topic organically.  Couple these reasons with the fact that many people need to hear the lecture to reinforce learning (not all are taped), and you have a recipe for a high drop-out rate with a population of people that are often more at risk for dropping out than students in traditional 4 year universities.  It doesn't help that colleges don't screen students for GPA prior to letting them register for online classes.

I've related before what it's like being an online professor at a community college.

 

I started a new section Monday. Initially I had 32 students. This is a class that sophomores in IT take. A few others, but primarily IT majors. It is an accelerated 8-week session (i.e. drinking from a fire hose).

 

I began with 32 students. By Friday I had 30.

 

Their first assignment was due Thursday and the second Saturday. Nine students have completed those (less than 1/3).

 

If I don't get both of those assignments from the remaining 21 for partial credit, they will be dropped on Wednesday.

 

Any bets on how many students I'll have left? Everyone talks about online education being the greatest in higher education, but my experience is that the vast majority shouldn't be doing it.

 

Hello Week 2!

 

Edited October 7, 2016 by reefgazer

[Bluegoat]

I taught online biology for many years at the community college level.  I hated every minute of it, and abandoned that teaching venue for face to face teaching.  The fact that this is an 8-week course probably contributes to the horrific washout rate, but online courses have higher-than-average washout rates anyway.  Speaking very generally, I think online is one of the absolute worst ways to actually learn.  It's tough to maintain enthusiasm when it's just the student behind the computer.  I think many who sign up for this delivery mode think they will be able to swing it because they are already overwhelmed with life and think this mode will be manageable (um, no - if you are over-burdened already, you shouldn't be taking any class, let alone an independently-driven one).  There is little peer interaction that is not contrived (those pathetic discussion boards add little to the course or the student's learning), and the lack of face to face conversations cheats students of real interactions with people who have similar interests and who can start discussions on the topic organically.  Couple these reasons with the fact that many people need to hear the lecture to reinforce learning (not all are taped), and you have a recipe for a high drop-out rate with a population of people that are often more at risk for dropping out than students in traditional 4 year universities.  It doesn't help that colleges don't screen students for GPA prior to letting them register for online classes.

 

I think this is something that is really given lip service with online learning, maybe because people don't quite know how to overcome it.

 

When I was a student, the social life of the department was really important to how people related to the material.  I know in some of the popular first year courses with a lot of students, the profs had to work really hard to create tat atmosphere, and at least that is in person at least.  But for classes beyond that level, a lot of discussion was outside of the class - it happened in the across the street pub after class, or at departmental parties, and sitting around in the lounge.  Often there would be grad students around or sometimes the teachers would come too.  It wasn't uncommon for students to get together to do a performance of a Greek play or a Latin poetry reading, or once after a big snow some created a snow sculpture on the lawn of the fight between Odysseus and his men and the cyclops.

 

I know some people would call those things social events, but I think they contributed in a significant way to the students relationship with the material.

Edited October 7, 2016 by Bluegoat

[MarkT]

The interesting contrast is many folks here at WTM have been very successful and happy with online providers at the high school level including AP (see HS threads).  It would be nice if folks could identify why this is the case.

 

Maybe it is just a better student or parental support.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

The interesting contrast is many folks here at WTM have been very successful and happy with online providers at the high school level including AP (see HS threads).  It would be nice if folks could identify why this is the case.

 

Maybe it is just a better student or parental support.

 

I think that when you have a parent supervising and mentoring the student through the process of doing the online class it makes a big difference.  DS usually does his online class meetings in the kitchen.  I do dishes and laundry nearby and generally hover.  When he did his first couple class sessions I was at about arms length, pointing to where the chat box was and helping with technical issues.  Each week I am supervising how he is doing with homework and quiz prep.  Because we moved mid year a couple times with his brothers, I used to even have an alarm on my phone that would go off an hour before the deadline for homework and quizzes (after miscalculating the time difference for one homework).

 

As the years go by I'm involved less.  My senior is self-propelled and tells me when he had virtual sessions for classes.

 

An online college student lacks his mentor.  

[MarkT]

I think that when you have a parent supervising and mentoring the student through the process of doing the online class it makes a big difference.  DS usually does his online class meetings in the kitchen.  I do dishes and laundry nearby and generally hover.  When he did his first couple class sessions I was at about arms length, pointing to where the chat box was and helping with technical issues.  Each week I am supervising how he is doing with homework and quiz prep.  Because we moved mid year a couple times with his brothers, I used to even have an alarm on my phone that would go off an hour before the deadline for homework and quizzes (after miscalculating the time difference for one homework).

 

As the years go by I'm involved less.  My senior is self-propelled and tells me when he had virtual sessions for classes.

 

An online college student lacks his mentor.  

For young online college students (probably at home if CC) maybe the college suggest they get a "mentor" who could be a relative.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

For young online college students (probably at home if CC) maybe the college suggest they get a "mentor" who could be a relative.

 

That would work best if the parent also has some familiarity with expectations surrounding college level academics.  I think that some of the students who struggle most don't have someone at home who can provide that sort of scaffolding, either because they don't know how or because they are working or are otherwise not available.

 

A school can provide a study skills center or lessons on online skills through the library, but it is up to the student to make use of those resources.  

 

The math and English study centers and free tutors and dss' schools have not seemed to be much in use.  

[SparklyUnicorn]

Remains to be seen in the end how that all works out, but so far so good with DS and his on-line math course (local CC).  It's just one course.  Basically all I do is repeat daily...."work on math".  And he gets annoyed that I reminded him.  And I remind him it's in the mom job description to be annoying.

 

 

[eternalsummer]

AP classes and tests don't give college credit. It is up to each individual university which tests they will grant credit for, their minimum required score and from which students they will accept scores for credit. Some universities don't grant credit for any AP exam scores, some are quite liberal and some have a limit of one type or another. AP courses aren't a guarantee of success on an AP exam and a successful AP exam is not a guarantee that the student will earn any college credit. 

 

In contrast, many community colleges have agreements with universities that ahead of time which courses will transfer and what the course equivalent is a the university that the student will receive credit for upon completion of the the community college course. Before the student enrolls in the course, they know if the course will transfer, which universities it will transfer to and the minimum grade required to transfer. 

 

 

Maybe this has changed?  When I was in HS, 15 years ago or so, AP credit was more or less analogous to CC dual credit in terms of acceptance.  University of (state) took it, Harvard didn't, generally speaking.

 

The difference was that dual credit cost $ and AP/IB (I took IB mostly) testing was free.

[mumto2]

Online college classes have worked well for both dc's. Since they are both living at home with interested parents who both look at the syllabus and offer advice I know they have lots of support. They have also learned to advocate for themselves well. Dh takes care of the paperwork for both.

 

We discussed some of the comments on this thread the other night and both dc's were quick to point out that many of their classmates have real responsibilities, jobs that support them and their families. My kids consider their living at home with their hobby being the source of their spending money easy. They felt that was the reason in many cases for droping classes etc.

[elegantlion]

I did my first year of college online. It worked good for me, a motivated student who lived out of town. The peer interaction was the biggest issue. That first year I didn't care about interactions because I had so many other responsibilities. But online conversations can be flat. I remember one of my first assignments was discuss something in a forum. I was expecting conversations like THIS forum, considering most of the students grew up with social media.  :lol: Was I in for a surprise. It was almost lifeless postings, very much concerned with just restating the material from the lecture or text. It felt very robotic. 

 

My online other issue was one professor who offered credit to students who came to campus for events. I pointed out this was a 100% online class (advertised as such) and that I took particularly so I wouldn't have to come to campus. So I think there can be some disconnect about who takes online classes, especially at my school where most of the online students do mix with regular campus classes. 

 

[G5052]

BTW, I was relating this thread to my oldest who has two online college courses because of scheduling issues.

 

He hates them. He hates not having real interaction. To him, a hybrid is ideal. At least you see the professor and your fellow students regularly. He's fine with some work done on your own.

 

He took live online classes during his homeschooling and did beautifully. He liked that.

 

My school has 600 professors in just the online portion.  

 

They offer live online seminars twice a month outlining what is required to be successful. There is online tutoring available for 10-12 hours a day that you can reserve with an hour's notice. There is technical support available 24/7. The students have an 800-number to call on advising and registration issues that is staffed 7am-7pm five days a week. Frankly, that's more generous than most online schools.

 

I also have an 800-number to call for urgent questions and support from 7am-7pm five days a week. There is also a team that I can contact via email on less urgent matters that is very responsive.

 

The majority of my online students are working full-time, and some have family responsibilities.

 

Dual enrollment is not disclosed, and under FERPA, we are not allowed to interact with parents anyway unless the parents have signed the proper paperwork. I have a contact to have that verified if a parent contacts me.

 

So sad situation, but given tight budgets and the scope of my school, it's just a reality. 

 

[Bluegoat]

I suppose the thing is, it depends on what you are comparing.  Lots of high school classes aren't very good anyway, so no surprise that a better online class might be seen as a good thing. 

 

But I don't know that parents and students are always in a position to know what the ideal would be, and that seems to be part of the issue.  Someone satisfied with the limitations of some online classes may just not have much of a sense of what is missing.  They aren't getting what should be an important part of the learning experience but that isn't really something they expected in the first place.  It becomes a kind of circular problem.

[shawthorne44]

...

 

As a humanities person. I've never thought that online courses were a really good option - they can work for some and be great when there are serious barriers like distance, but I don't think it's possible to replicate the personal/interpersonal aspect of good humanities instruction which is in many ways as important as content. 

 

I guess that is why I never understand this "but there is no classroom interaction".   I have a STEM brain.   Honestly, I don't give a hoot what my classmates think.   That is blind leading the blind.  But, that is because my brain is looking for the "right" answer.  

 

Probably because of that, the few online classes I've done worked really well.  You listen to the lectures, do the homework.   If you don't get it you do more problems.  If you really get into a jam, you email the professor.  Then do some more problems.  Then Ace the test.  

[G5052]

Probably because of that, the few online classes I've done worked really well.  You listen to the lectures, do the homework.   If you don't get it you do more problems.  If you really get into a jam, you email the professor.  Then do some more problems.  Then Ace the test.  

 

I agree. I'm a computer science/IT professor, and I was great with the classes I've taken in those areas. No lectures actually, but I'm fine reading the instructions and completing the assignments.

 

The class I'm teaching now has zero interactions among the students after introductions. They build a website from a project plan with multimedia elements and take four tests and a comprehensive final, that's it.

[regentrude]

I guess that is why I never understand this "but there is no classroom interaction".   I have a STEM brain.   Honestly, I don't give a hoot what my classmates think.   That is blind leading the blind.  But, that is because my brain is looking for the "right" answer.  

 

Probably because of that, the few online classes I've done worked really well.  You listen to the lectures, do the homework.   If you don't get it you do more problems.  If you really get into a jam, you email the professor.  Then do some more problems.  Then Ace the test.  

 

I am a physics professor. Discussion and problem solving with fellow students is not "the blind leading the blind". Explaining a problem to another student is THE most powerful learning tool. Every professor knows that one only truly understands a subject once one is forced to teach it. Incorporating peer teaching techniques in class is extremely beneficial for the students - especially in STEM.

 

"If you don't get it you do more problems" will not work for many students. They need interaction with a live human to work on problem solving. We had study groups that accomplished this. I run voluntary problem solving sessions that are visited by 60-100 students per week - because they see how beneficial it is to work in a group and talk to other students about physics.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I am a physics professor. Discussion and problem solving with fellow students is not "the blind leading the blind". Explaining a problem to another student is THE most powerful learning tool. Every professor knows that one only truly understands a subject once one is forced to teach it. Incorporating peer teaching techniques in class is extremely beneficial for the students - especially in STEM.

 

"If you don't get it you do more problems" will not work for many students. They need interaction with a live human to work on problem solving. We had study groups that accomplished this. I run voluntary problem solving sessions that are visited by 60-100 students per week - because they see how beneficial it is to work in a group and talk to other students about physics.

 

If you manage to find a fellow classmate who gives a frack.  I believe you that it is a powerful tool.  My son is basically THAT person. We discuss problems. My husband too.  But I don't encounter many people who want to do more than get through a class.  Now granted I graduated from a state U.  Maybe it's different elsewhere.  I hope so. 

[elegantlion]

If you manage to find a fellow classmate who gives a frack.  I believe you that it is a powerful tool.  My son is basically THAT person. We discuss problems. My husband too.  But I don't encounter many people who want to do more than get through a class.  Now granted I graduated from a state U.  Maybe it's different elsewhere.  I hope so. 

 

Even at a state U there can be people that care. If not the students, then interact with the professors. Our professors push office hours and are very accommodating to meeting students at other hours. Granted I'm at a smaller university where you may get 100 people in a science general studies class, but most general studies are 40 or less people. 

 

It took me a few years to find more than a few students that wanted to do more than get through class. By that time I already had a working rapport with my advisor to discuss specific areas. Ds has found a physics professor who really loves to talk about topics they can't cover in class. One day last week he spent an hour in his office discussing a topic I dare not try to explain. He was so excited because this could lead to something he's interested in researching.

 

Like I said above, I liked my online classes, but I never knew what other online students really thought - there was zero interaction outside of classwork. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Even at a state U there can be people that care. If not the students, then interact with the professors. Our professors push office hours and are very accommodating to meeting students at other hours. Granted I'm at a smaller university where you may get 100 people in a science general studies class, but most general studies are 40 or less people. 

 

It took me a few years to find more than a few students that wanted to do more than get through class. By that time I already had a working rapport with my advisor to discuss specific areas. Ds has found a physics professor who really loves to talk about topics they can't cover in class. One day last week he spent an hour in his office discussing a topic I dare not try to explain. He was so excited because this could lead to something he's interested in researching.

 

Like I said above, I liked my online classes, but I never knew what other online students really thought - there was zero interaction outside of classwork. 

 

I did have a good advisor.  He wasn't the person I started off with, but switched to.  I did an independent study course with him as well.  And I once got paired with someone for a project and that person was as into it as I was.  But really in 4 years that's it?! 

 

I can see where an on-line class would be boring for certain classes. 

 

I was in a few graduate classes, and that was very different.  The people I met there were very into it. 

[G5052]

"If you don't get it you do more problems" will not work for many students. They need interaction with a live human to work on problem solving. We had study groups that accomplished this. I run voluntary problem solving sessions that are visited by 60-100 students per week - because they see how beneficial it is to work in a group and talk to other students about physics.

 

You make a good point that I hadn't considered for my situation.

 

In IT and computer science, troubleshooting is a very important skill that can certainly be taught. I went to school prior to the age of debuggers for code, so we debugged by putting in what we were taught as "flag code" to put a message up where it was or what a certain value was at a certain point.

 

Even when I'm working on a basic HTML web page, there are certain clues that tell you what's wrong, and I usually build a framework with placeholders and then put the graphics and animation in versus doing it all at once where it's harder to figure out what happened.

 

When I used to teach basic computer literacy classes, some of the students would freeze if the computer did something unexpected. Some wouldn't even raise their hand. They would just sit there. Ten minutes later if I noticed they weren't working and asked why, they say that I had to fix the computer. I'd have to teach them to save the file and come back in or reboot or go to a different computer. It wasn't something that some of them had any clue about.

 

Perhaps some of my current students haven't developed the skills to figure things out on their own even though there are two prerequisites, an important skill in this field.

[Guest]

One of my homeschooling regrets was having our first dual credit experience be an online class. I supervised by making sure the work was getting done, but halfway through the semester I had my son check his overall grade and it was an F. Turns out that the papers he THOUGHT he was submitting weren't going through properly. So he contacted his professor, was allowed to "resubmit" the assignments for half credit, and from that point on he knew how to properly turn in assignments. He received A's on the rest of his papers, so he ended the semester with a C. He probably could've had a final grade of A if it hadn't been for the technological mishap. So our subsequent dual credit classes have all been on-campus experiences.

Edited October 10, 2016 by Kinsa

[SparklyUnicorn]

One of my homeschooling regrets was having our first dual credit experience be an online class. I supervised by making sure the work was getting done, but halfway through the semester I had my son check his overall grade and it was an F. Turns out that the papers he THOUGHT he was submitting weren't going through properly. So he contacted his professor, was allowed to "resubmit" the assignments for half credit, and from that point on he knew how to properly turn in assignments. He received A's on the rest of his papers, so he ended the semester with a C. He probably could've had a final grade of A if it hadn't been for the technological mishap. So our subsequent dual credit classes have all been on-campus experiences.

 

That really bites!

 

I am so afraid of stuff like that happening. 

[Bluegoat]

I guess that is why I never understand this "but there is no classroom interaction".   I have a STEM brain.   Honestly, I don't give a hoot what my classmates think.   That is blind leading the blind.  But, that is because my brain is looking for the "right" answer.  

 

Probably because of that, the few online classes I've done worked really well.  You listen to the lectures, do the homework.   If you don't get it you do more problems.  If you really get into a jam, you email the professor.  Then do some more problems.  Then Ace the test.  

 

 

I am a physics professor. Discussion and problem solving with fellow students is not "the blind leading the blind". Explaining a problem to another student is THE most powerful learning tool. Every professor knows that one only truly understands a subject once one is forced to teach it. Incorporating peer teaching techniques in class is extremely beneficial for the students - especially in STEM.

 

"If you don't get it you do more problems" will not work for many students. They need interaction with a live human to work on problem solving. We had study groups that accomplished this. I run voluntary problem solving sessions that are visited by 60-100 students per week - because they see how beneficial it is to work in a group and talk to other students about physics.

 

Now, I find the idea of STEM subjects as being about finding the "right" answer a little odd.  I've not done much in the sciences at a university level, but that isn't particularly what I saw amongst the science students I knew.  And my husband works as a scientist and it absolutely isn't what is considered "real science" in his workplace.  There are some people who mostly just like to run their same tests and so on, but those are not the people who are given more interesting projects or responsibilities - it's the people who want to find better ways of doing things, develop new projects and better or cheaper equipment, find people with complementary knowledge to work with, and so on.  

[regentrude]

Now, I find the idea of STEM subjects as being about finding the "right" answer a little odd.  I've not done much in the sciences at a university level, but that isn't particularly what I saw amongst the science students I knew.  And my husband works as a scientist and it absolutely isn't what is considered "real science" in his workplace.  There are some people who mostly just like to run their same tests and so on, but those are not the people who are given more interesting projects or responsibilities - it's the people who want to find better ways of doing things, develop new projects and better or cheaper equipment, find people with complementary knowledge to work with, and so on.  

 

In physics, even in introductory courses, it is absolutely not about "finding the right answer" either. The most important thing is the thought process and the problem solving strategy. The right answer alone is worth maybe 5% of the grade, if not substantiated by the correct explanation of how the answer was arrived at. 

 

And in actual research, you don't know what the "right" answer is anyway - the more important thing is asking the "right" questions ;)