Sneaky/stealing four-year-old

[greenbeanmama]

Our youngest turned four in June, and we're wondering about some of her behavior.  She is very, very bright (her logic skills scare me sometimes!), and is extremely strong willed.  For the past several months, she has been stealing things around the house and stashing them different places: a loaf of bread in her locker, a solor panel from her brother's electrical kit found in her play mailbox, a bottle of essential oils that she insisted she didn't take (yet it was obvious by the smell when she walked into a room, and she did finally retrieve it when I agreed to cover my eyes and not see where she hid it).  When I find these things,I calmly talk to her and explain that she shouldn't take things that aren't hers and hide them.  She knows what stealing is, and gets extremely offended if someone takes one of her own toys without asking.

 

In the past week, I found her hiding her sister's memory game (shortly after her sister said she didn't want to play it right then), a bottle of craft paint (that she opened and used on the floor and wall behind the couch), as well as a bottle of ketchup that she hid in the basket of tub toys.  Some of her stealing seems retaliatory, but definitely not all.  As far as I know, she hasn't eaten the jam she hid, though we haven't located that yet.  Today she almost stole a bolt from the hardware store.  We hadn't checked out yet, but if we had, I would have made her bring it back and tell the sales lady.  I caught her with it, and she said she "accidentally forgot" that it was in her hand, though she was hiding it behind her back.

 

We are also dealing with horrible temper tantrums from her.  She has put dents in the walls by throwing toys, bruised my shins by kicking them, and almost stabbed her sister with a fork.  It will take her anywhere from 20 minutes to over an hour to calm down once she gets started.  These have been escalating the past few months.

 

As background information: she carries Epi-Pens for unknown allergies, and we have allergy testing later this month.  My thought had been that her tantrums are due to feeling pretty cruddy most of the time, so she overreacts when she doesn't get her way.  But the violence/damage of them has increased, along with the stealing/hiding.

 

We can put locks on medications to make sure she can't take those, but her behavior is exhausting me.  Her siblings don't want to be around her, for fear that she'll lash out at them or take their stuff.  We've tried keeping her within arm's reach of me all the time, but she seems to delight in that while it drives me batty (she's quite social, I'm an introvert), and it really isn't practical as a long-term solution.  She can be a very sweet child some of the time.  But right now, I'm not sure what to do with her.  Any suggestions?

[MomatHWTK]

See a therapist who will help your child rather than just labelling the negative behaviors. Your CHILD can't control her brain's patterns. Be the adult and get her help.

[jewellsmommy]

:grouphug:  I can tell you that I truly understand. I have been there and done that with ds. It may sound like people here can sometimes be quick to yell therapy, but it truly is necessary in your case based on what you are describing. Phases come and go, but the escalation and pattern you describe sounds like a much bigger cry for help than just a developmental phase.

 

The blessing is that I would rather have had the chance to start working with ds at four then at 7 (but he didnt come to us til 7), and you can start now. Ask your pediatrician for references, tell them what is going on. Don't just get a parenting book. If therapy is too expensive for your situation, be open with your dr and they may be able to help. 

 

:grouphug:

[gardenmom5]

some is developmental for the stage.  but my first thought (as a parent who has had five 4 yr  olds).

 

 

is she getting as much positive interaction as she needs?  are her emotional needs being met?  is she doing this becasue she feels gipped and resentful for some reason so she's trying to hurt others - or is she trying to get attention?  does she feel like people care more about 'things', than her?

 

 

eta: I'm not suggesting therapy - but I would suggest everyone make a more concerted effort to recognize what she does 'right', and giving her positive attention and feedback.  snuggling, reading stories of her choices, playing games, etc.

Edited August 12, 2016 by gardenmom5

[jewellsmommy]

I forgot to say, that my concern is based more on the violence than the stealing. Tantrums and hitting are one thing, but 'almost stabbed her sister with a fork' is concerning (I am reading this as an intentional act not as an accident-unless you mean something different). How old is the sister and the brother, if I may ask?

[greenbeanmama]

some is developmental for the stage.  but my first thought (as a parent who has had five 4 yr  olds).

 

 

is she getting as much positive interaction as she needs?  are her emotional needs being met?  is she doing this becasue she feels gipped and resentful for some reason so she's trying to hurt others - or is she trying to get attention?  does she feel like people care more about 'things', than her?

 

 

eta: I'm not suggesting therapy - but I would suggest everyone make a more concerted effort to recognize what she does 'right', and giving her positive attention and feedback.  snuggling, reading stories of her choices, playing games, etc.

 

The attention seeking had occurred to me, but she does get a LOT of positive attention.  I read to her (specifically) about an hour throughout each day, where she is either sitting on my lap or sitting next to me on the floor.  I read to everyone (older books, mostly) and she often sits on my lap for that too.  We play a lot of board games, and she plays Go Fish, Pengaloo, Sorry, Spot It, Candyland, etc - often one-on-one with either my husband or me, because the older kiddos don't always want to play.  They DO include her in their play though (forts, Playmobil, riding bikes outside, etc).  Her older sister likes doing floor puzzles with her, and her brother includes her in dart gun fights.  When my husband gets home from work, he gets on the floor and the three kiddos climb all over him.  They sword fight, and she is always quick to say, "I'm on Daddy's team!"   I specifically take only her to the grocery store at least once a week (I realized about a year and a half ago that she seemed more content after shopping and talking my ear off for an hour).  And every third week she goes on an ice cream date with just me as well (I rotate through, taking each kiddo individually).  She often sits on the counter when I cook, and is on a rotation where she is supposed to help cook dinner several times a week (again, that's one-on-one time).  She helps me fold laundry, vacuum, etc, so she really is interacting with me a good chunk of the day.  I am always reminding them to be kind to each other, and I do point out/praise when one child is showing kindness, including my youngest.  We always chat with each kiddo for a few minutes before they're tucked into bed each night.  To be honest, since she's the youngest and currently the most demanding of my attention, she gets the lion's share.  I've talked with the older two about this, and I do make an effort to make sure each child gets enough positive individual attention.

[gardenmom5]

focusing more on the behavior - the tantrum, are things I had to deal with with dudeling. he'd try to throw plates . . . (he was unaware of the damage could cause. - he was shocked when he broke a plate.).  I couldn't let him be around kids his own age without me there to supervise as he wasn't safe.

I ended up taking him to a naturopath who deals with aneurotypical kids. what. a. difference.!  we focused more on physiological biochemistry.   one of the first things - getting him on a good vitamin (rainbow light gummybear essentials) becasue he was not getting the nutrients he need. (he could give lessons on picky eating)  but she had him on melatonin so he'd sleep (he started sleeping two more hours a night.)  but the biggest difference for his aggression was NAC.  I ran out, and didn't make an effort to quickly replace it and I noticed deterioration in his behavior.  I haven't been out since.

food sensitivities- he loved foods with nitrates.  he'd react to them and become aggresive, so I had to take them out of his diet.  I knew one kid who'd get aggressive after eating *sharp* chedder cheese.

 

eta: kids this age are usually unaware of the damage. they are reacting, with little real understanding of what will happen to the object of their anger.

with the nutrients - for him, part of it was he wasn't even absorbing some of what he was ingesting.

my *former* ped, was utterly, utterly worthless in helping with him.  

Edited August 12, 2016 by gardenmom5

[greenbeanmama]

I forgot to say, that my concern is based more on the violence than the stealing. Tantrums and hitting are one thing, but 'almost stabbed her sister with a fork' is concerning (I am reading this as an intentional act not as an accident-unless you mean something different). How old is the sister and the brother, if I may ask?

 

Yes, the fork incident was quite intentional - I turned around just in time to stop her.  I did mention it to her regular doctor when were were there last month for well-kid checks, and he did seem concerned about some of the behavior but wanted to see if the allergy testing might give us some more answers first.

 

Her siblings are almost 7 and 9.5.

[Junie]

This might be a long shot, but maybe she is reacting to artificial food coloring.  I have two children whose personalities would change if they ate something with Red #40.

[OneStepAtATime]

There may be several things going on. One of them might possibly be an extremely bright, extroverted child that is desperate for mental and physical challenges and interaction with others and needs that several hours a day but is not getting it. She is creating her own to fill the void. Just a thought. Hopefully you find solid answers.

[melbotoast]

Many parents in my corn allergy group talk about "corn rage". I've seen a definite improvement in my daughter's tantrums since we removed corn from her diet.

[zoobie]

There may be several things going on. One of them might possibly be an extremely bright, extroverted child that is desperate for mental and physical challenges and interaction with others and needs that several hours a day but is not getting it. She is creating her own to fill the void. Just a thought. Hopefully you find solid answers.

This is my 4 year old. She's exhausting. I cannot wait for preschool to start up again. Girlfriend will be going 5 days, and she will be much more pleasant to be around. She needs **constant** stimulation.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I wouldn't label taking things in the home as stealing because in our home, they belong to all of us.  It does sound like she has some impulse control issues related to taking things as she sees them or even lashing out. 

[Ausmumof3]

I wouldn't label it stealing but the behaviour doesn't sound typical for a four year old I would be looking for medical help or therapy to figure out what is going on.

[jewellsmommy]

I wouldn't label taking things in the home as stealing because in our home, they belong to all of us.  It does sound like she has some impulse control issues related to taking things as she sees them or even lashing out. 

 

I have no trouble with the label of stealing being used. To me, just because we are in the same home and family does not mean that everything is free range and respect of a person's space goes out the window.

 

It sounds like the op's children have their own toys. Her brother's toy is not her toy. Just like the op says that the girl's toys are hers and she expects that to be honored.

 

The money in my wallet is not free range. I would ask before taking money from dh's wallet because he may have plans for it. We are a very loving and close knit family, but we do operate under the concept that personal ownership exists. Now, food is everyone's and I would not use the term stealing if food were the only thing in question. Something from a store definitely qualifies when the intention is to remove it without paying.

 

All that being said, the girl is only 4...that is MUCH different than 14! And some of that is quite average developmentally. That doesn't mean you don't address it of course. I used the term stealing with ds when he pocketed some trinkets from a store and when he took money from my mom's house (as did his therapist). I don't think there is anything wrong with op using that term as long as she is not seeking to shame the girl with it, which does not sound like the case. 

 

OP: I very much agree about the impulse control. Maturity is the best thing for impulse control. Also, verbalizing my thought process as a way to role model was something we did. For instance, with ds, I would say..."wow. yes that trinket does look like fun and I am sad that I cant have it right now. But I will just tell myself that I can save my chore money and get it later. I will draw a picture of it when I get home and put it on the wall to remind me"  (etc.) Especially in conflict..."I know it would upset me if my sister wouldn't play with me. I would be tempted to do something mean to get even. But when I think about it, I know I wouldn't like it if she did something mean to me. A sister is a nice person to have even if she can't always play with me...." etc.-you get the point.

 

It sounds tiring, but it can help ward off some reactions a small percentage of the time and if nothing else, it can open a dialog on feeling and reactions.

[jewellsmommy]

A friend of mine had a boy who, when young, was just a wide-open type child. He didn't express feelings well and would just attack instead. He was very verbal, just disconnected and felt every thing very deeply. Unfortunately, he kind of trained his younger sibling to react the same way because he went after her so much and it was like law of the jungle in their house. Once the parents got him in with a good therapist (it was slow going) but he began to use his words and he had thoughts that went pretty deep for such a young kid. But now they knew how he thought it got better because they could see it coming and head it off. They knew what to ask, when to anticipate, when to bring him in closer and when to give him space. At this age the therapy is more for the parents than the kids. Its to help you parent this particular child better.

Edited August 13, 2016 by jewellsmommy

[Schadenfreude]

You mentioned that she had unknown allergies. Are they messing with her sleep? My daughter went down this road several years ago. It culminated with some pretty exstensive damage to all around her. After finding a new doctor, we did a sleep study. She had restless leg syndrome. In children it is caused by vitamin deficiency. If your child's allergies are not under control she may not be absorbing nutrients properly. Once my dd was sleeping properly everything abnormal cleared up.

[abcmommy]

http://www.kellybear.com/TeacherArticles/TeacherTip65.html

 

http://www.askdrsears.com/topics/parenting/discipline-behavior/morals-manners/stealing-8-ways-prevent-and-discipline-stealing

 

To the preschool child, possession means ownership. In a child’s mind he has a right to anything within grabbing distance. Children under four have difficulty distinguishing between “mine†and “yours.†Everything is potentially “mine.†They don’t know that palming a piece of candy at the grocery store is stealing until you tell them so. In the child’s mind he has done no wrong until the parents pass judgment.

Many preschool children can’t curb their impulses. They see the toy, feel they must have it, and take it without any judgment as to the rightness or wrongness of the action. Instead of guilt, they feel relief that their craving is satisfied. The more impulsive the child, the more likely he is to help himself to things.

Around five to seven years of age children develop a hazy notion of the wrongness of stealing.

 

 

 

https://www.empoweringparents.com/article/hitting-biting-and-kicking-how-to-stop-aggressive-behavior-in-young-children/

 

 

 

At the first sign that your child is about to become aggressive, immediately step in and remove him from the situation. Be careful not to give too much attention to your child so that you do not give any negative reinforcement for the bad behavior. Too much attention can include trying to “talk through†the problem.

 

•  

• Do not personalize your child’s bad behavior. All too often parents get frustrated and angry at their child when they are aggressive, because many times we feel that our child’s poor behavior is a reflection of our parenting skills. If you have an aggressive child, switch your focus towards helping them express themselves in a more appropriate way and follow through when an incident occurs.

•  

 

•  
  •  

 

 

[Incognito]

I was going to ask about sleep too.  A couple of my kids have severe declines in self-control when they are not getting enough sleep.  

 

Another is the allergies.  It is surprising to me how eating something seems to affect the behavior of one of my kids.

 

FWIW, it sounds maddening, but the current situation does sound like it calls for her being close to you and you just needing to be willing to hear her talk all the time or finding some good CDs for both of you to sing along with as you work (or do whatever you do).

 

 

[Rebel Yell]

This might be a long shot, but maybe she is reacting to artificial food coloring. I have two children whose personalities would change if they ate something with Red #40.

Yes. It could be a lot of things, but try elminating dyes. From everything, food, soap, shampoo, toothpaste, body wash, etc. it was like I had a completely different child when I did that.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I have no trouble with the label of stealing being used. To me, just because we are in the same home and family does not mean that everything is free range and respect of a person's space goes out the window.

 

It sounds like the op's children have their own toys. Her brother's toy is not her toy. Just like the op says that the girl's toys are hers and she expects that to be honored.

 

The money in my wallet is not free range. I would ask before taking money from dh's wallet because he may have plans for it. We are a very loving and close knit family, but we do operate under the concept that personal ownership exists. Now, food is everyone's and I would not use the term stealing if food were the only thing in question. Something from a store definitely qualifies when the intention is to remove it without paying.

 

All that being said, the girl is only 4...that is MUCH different than 14! And some of that is quite average developmentally. That doesn't mean you don't address it of course. I used the term stealing with ds when he pocketed some trinkets from a store and when he took money from my mom's house (as did his therapist). I don't think there is anything wrong with op using that term as long as she is not seeking to shame the girl with it, which does not sound like the case. 

 

OP: I very much agree about the impulse control. Maturity is the best thing for impulse control. Also, verbalizing my thought process as a way to role model was something we did. For instance, with ds, I would say..."wow. yes that trinket does look like fun and I am sad that I cant have it right now. But I will just tell myself that I can save my chore money and get it later. I will draw a picture of it when I get home and put it on the wall to remind me"  (etc.) Especially in conflict..."I know it would upset me if my sister wouldn't play with me. I would be tempted to do something mean to get even. But when I think about it, I know I wouldn't like it if she did something mean to me. A sister is a nice person to have even if she can't always play with me...." etc.-you get the point.

 

It sounds tiring, but it can help ward off some reactions a small percentage of the time and if nothing else, it can open a dialog on feeling and reactions.

I do agree about personal ownership but it did seem like there was some negative connotation there with the OP labeling the child as "sneaky".  It just seems to me that you need to look for the underlying problem if there is one - especially if there are some medical problems that could be contributing or even causing it. 

 

I like the description of how you verbalize the thought process.  I would do that while at the same time pursuing the medical side of things. 

 

 

[katilac]

I do agree about personal ownership but it did seem like there was some negative connotation there with the OP labeling the child as "sneaky".  It just seems to me that you need to look for the underlying problem if there is one - especially if there are some medical problems that could be contributing or even causing it. 

 

 

 

But she IS sneaky, lol. The OP was describing her behavior to us, not talking to the child. That doesn't negate looking for any underlying problems. 

 

I definitely agree with trying to eliminate possible allergens along with food dye and dye in other products, and anything artificial to the greatest extent possible. Both of my dds and I can get terrible hives, and one thing I learned is that there is not always a single cause like "she ate Cheetos and had a reaction." Rather, it can be a buildup of things, and, when the tipping point is reached, we have a reaction. So eliminating as many routine things as possible is a big help overall. 

 

Medications are another thing to look at. Allergy medications in particular are notorious for causing weird behavior problems. My nephew used to be a raging lunatic on Dimetapp, and it took quite a while to figure out that trigger. 

 

I would have her in to a therapist for a couple of reasons. If there is something bothering her, a therapist may be able to help her verbalize that. Even if not, she (and you) can learn coping strategies while you try to suss out the underlying reasons. A therapist also might be able to advise on dealing with sibling reactions and feelings - this, to me, is the kind of thing that can really have a negative effect on sibling relationships, and I would want to be on top of that. 

[greenbeanmama]

Sorry it took me a while to get back here..life happened...

 

So, what I'm gathering from the wisdom of y'all is:

-figure out the allergies

-try eliminating food dyes

-make sure she is getting enough sleep

-keep her close and be very intentional about positive interactions

-see if her regular doctor can refer us to a therapist

 

Hopefully we'll be on the road to answers soon.  Thank you all!

[kiwik]

Good luck. Ds7 is pretty unpleasant when he is tired, hungry or stressed - he doesn't throw things as much now he has melatonin and a new school. The stealing stuff isn't that unusual for a 4 year old - when I visited home when my youngest brother was 4 he used to take my inhalers and hide them. You are probably going to notice one day that she has stopped.

[happi duck]

focusing more on the behavior - the tantrum, are things I had to deal with with dudeling. he'd try to throw plates . . . (he was unaware of the damage could cause. - he was shocked when he broke a plate.). I couldn't let him be around kids his own age without me there to supervise as he wasn't safe.

I ended up taking him to a naturopath who deals with aneurotypical kids. what. a. difference.! we focused more on physiological biochemistry. one of the first things - getting him on a good vitamin (rainbow light gummybear essentials) becasue he was not getting the nutrients he need. (he could give lessons on picky eating) but she had him on melatonin so he'd sleep (he started sleeping two more hours a night.) but the biggest difference for his aggression was NAC. I ran out, and didn't make an effort to quickly replace it and I noticed deterioration in his behavior. I haven't been out since.

food sensitivities- he loved foods with nitrates. he'd react to them and become aggresive, so I had to take them out of his diet. I knew one kid who'd get aggressive after eating *sharp* chedder cheese.

 

eta: kids this age are usually unaware of the damage. they are reacting, with little real understanding of what will happen to the object of their anger.

with the nutrients - for him, part of it was he wasn't even absorbing some of what he was ingesting.

my *former* ped, was utterly, utterly worthless in helping with him.

I read your post and I wondered what NAC was. After looking it up hope to try it myself for anxiety.

 

Do you have a brand you recommend?

 

.

Edited August 19, 2016 by happi duck

[greenbeanmama]

Just a quick update!  Allergy testing showed that my daughter reacted to nineteen of the things they tested for.  There are other things that she is reacting to, but the allergist said we wouldn't be able to determine all of them (like the spots she gets on her face/hands at co-op). 

 

But we've also discovered that she can't tolerate Benadryl.  The doctor called it a reverse reaction, which caused her to get irrational and violent.  She hasn't had Benedryl in three weeks, and her temper tantrums have diminished in frequency and intensity.  She's still strong willed (of course!), but we can actually handle it when she gets upset now.  Phew!  No Benadryl - who would have thought?!?

[eternalsummer]

Just a quick update!  Allergy testing showed that my daughter reacted to nineteen of the things they tested for.  There are other things that she is reacting to, but the allergist said we wouldn't be able to determine all of them (like the spots she gets on her face/hands at co-op). 

 

But we've also discovered that she can't tolerate Benadryl.  The doctor called it a reverse reaction, which caused her to get irrational and violent.  She hasn't had Benedryl in three weeks, and her temper tantrums have diminished in frequency and intensity.  She's still strong willed (of course!), but we can actually handle it when she gets upset now.  Phew!  No Benadryl - who would have thought?!?

 

I think it's the reverse effect of the drowsiness that many people get with an antihistimine.  It says on the package "excitability may occur, esp. in children" 

[zoobie]

Just a quick update! Allergy testing showed that my daughter reacted to nineteen of the things they tested for. There are other things that she is reacting to, but the allergist said we wouldn't be able to determine all of them (like the spots she gets on her face/hands at co-op).

 

But we've also discovered that she can't tolerate Benadryl. The doctor called it a reverse reaction, which caused her to get irrational and violent. She hasn't had Benedryl in three weeks, and her temper tantrums have diminished in frequency and intensity. She's still strong willed (of course!), but we can actually handle it when she gets upset now. Phew! No Benadryl - who would have thought?!?

Zyrtec can also make kids have severe behavioral issues. Glad you found some answers. She must feel so much better!

[Tanaqui]

I'm so glad you found the root cause, and it was something relatively easy to deal with!

[MomatHWTK]

Oooh, yeah. Benadryl and Zyrtec both make me go out of my mind. Benadryl I can handle in small doses, Zyrtec I tried once and never again!