sometimes I HATE aspergers

[ktgrok]

Have you actually tried working with a BCBA/behaviorist and getting help?  Because I can tell you they *would* have had more options for you.  You could have gone through an extreme OUCH reaction (so it was very obvious it hurt you, even though it didn't hurt him), then said "That hurt me a lot.  I need a break," and walked away. Because the policy is when you hurt people, they don't want to be around you, natural consequence.  

 

To me, to be 16 and hypo-responsive on pain and not yet REALIZE how different he is is going to cause some serious social problems.  You're already saying he's so challenging to work with.  How will anyone ELSE want to?  How will he have the social skills to hold a job?  Some serious intervention on this would really help.  DawnM is very right that there's a lot of growth that could occur there with dedicated instruction.  

 

Maybe when you started down this path there weren't as many resources as there are now.  Maybe there are some options you have now that *weren't* there 5 or 10 years ago when you were first getting him diagnosed?  Might be timely to look or look afresh.  Social Thinking.com materials, a BCBA, something.  There has been an EXPLOSION of stuff in the last 5 years.  You can outsource it, get insurance to pay for it, whatever.

 

He refuses to go, or participate. We've tried multiple therapists, social skills groups, etc. 

 

And trust me, mom walking away is not a negative consequence to him. By a long shot. 

 

I do think some of it ended up being the kind f thing that ends up being directed only at mom, which was very heartening. I think if he'd done it to someone else he MIGHT have apologized, and I think now that I explained it, even though he kept insisting I was wrong (probably to save face) he will remember it when it is someone other than me. 

[PeterPan]

Yeah, at this age you can't make 'em.  Not getting to be with someone *is* a consequence if he *wants* to be with the person. Not saying it's the *only* consequence that you would have as a result of that situation, but it is a consequence.  And it can go farther, like when you hurt me and don't apologize, I feel x and don't want to be with you.  When I don't want to be with you, we can't go do x thing you really wanted to, sorry.  So my ds will do something to me and lose an outing, and that's how it happens.  

 

But whatever.  I'm just glad we're doing it now, cuz what you're dealing with does not sound fun.  :(

[ktgrok]

Yeah, at this age you can't make 'em.  Not getting to be with someone *is* a consequence if he *wants* to be with the person. Not saying it's the *only* consequence that you would have as a result of that situation, but it is a consequence.  And it can go farther, like when you hurt me and don't apologize, I feel x and don't want to be with you.  When I don't want to be with you, we can't go do x thing you really wanted to, sorry.  So my ds will do something to me and lose an outing, and that's how it happens.  

 

But whatever.  I'm just glad we're doing it now, cuz what you're dealing with does not sound fun.   :(

 

 

Yeah, I REALLY wish he'd been diagnosed when he was still young enough to maybe be more willing to take direction, or cooperate. 

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[Spryte]

Yeah, I REALLY wish he'd been diagnosed when he was still young enough to maybe be more willing to take direction, or cooperate.

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No advice, I don't have an aspie and only know what I've heard from friends. But - how old was he when diagnosed?

 

I have a now adult NT son who deals with some serious issues, and once he hit 18, it was very hard to get him the therapy he needed. It's so hard to help them when they're older, and when they're 18, whew, your options shrink further.

 

Good luck!

[Jean in Newcastle]

I learned to walk away from ds so that he would not escalate.  Being left to de-escalate on his own was the best thing for the two of us - most of the time.  There were times when he was already escalating when I needed to intervene to prevent injury to himself or our house. The trick is figuring out the difference.  ;)

 

When he could de-escalate, then he could start to think less rigidly.  If I tried to talk to him otherwise, he would get fixated and even more rigid which helped nobody.  Now he can recognize on his own when he needs to de-escalate and will take steps to do so.  And he is able to then cope with social demands much better. 

[PeterPan]

I learned to walk away from ds so that he would not escalate.  Being left to de-escalate on his own was the best thing for the two of us - most of the time.  There were times when he was already escalating when I needed to intervene to prevent injury to himself or our house. The trick is figuring out the difference.  ;)

 

When he could de-escalate, then he could start to think less rigidly.  If I tried to talk to him otherwise, he would get fixated and even more rigid which helped nobody.  Now he can recognize on his own when he needs to de-escalate and will take steps to do so.  And he is able to then cope with social demands much better. 

 

This.  And you notice how quickly you (ktgrok) said there was no consequence?  The people who come in my house really freaking out about consequences are NT people who aren't behaviorists.  The behaviorist is looking for what motivates them, because you use that to flip the dynamic.  

 

I am *not* underestimating how unpleasant this is.  However did you let them come in your home?  Legally right now he has no choice.  In our home, it's ugly.  We've had extinction bursts, and basically I can't handle being around it.  I just wonder if there would be more that could be done, if you went ok I'm willing to do ANYTHING they say, including it being really not fun.  I'm not meaning to be unsympathetic, because I'm right behind you.  I'm just saying that if there IS an age to take it that far, this is the age.  As the others are saying, in 2 more years, hang it up.  I don't know, I'm just wondering if there are more things to put on the table.  *You* could talk with the BCBA.  Did *you* do sessions with a BCBA?  Because in reality the person doing the brunt of our work right now is a low-paid, mildly trained college student.  The behaviorist is the brains behind it, but she could train ANYONE who was motivated enough.  They mainly have to have the stomach for it.  Personally though, my relationship with my child wouldn't survive.  It has been pretty ugly.  But to me, what happens when he turns 18?  He's moving out?  Can he live independently?  Are you going to be stuck living with this for longer?  

Edited July 4, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

For instance, does he want to take those college classes?  Does that motivate him?  Then fine, he gets them so long as he also does sessions with the behaviorist.  No behaviorist, no college classes.  

 

He has you over a barrel if he gets what he wants AND he doesn't do the things you ask.  

[Murphy101]

Wow. It's hard to discern what is aspergers and what is just a 16 yr old being a jerk. Btdt.

 

What does his dad do? My dh would have lost his cool at any of our kids speaking to or treating me that way LONG before they turned 16 and it sounds like this is not new behavior.

 

I don't think you did anything wrong. He was being turdy shutting the door at your face and likely knew it was jerk behavior bc it isn't the first time - that doesn't make it your fault bc you haven't gotten used to the abuse enough to expect it.

 

And it hurt, so you acted like it hurt. I really don't care if he is being defensive or not. If I hit someone, I am not the one who gets to decide how much they hurt or to add to the injury by calling them names. He is full of crap that your expectation is not reasonable or logical.

 

I'd take the door off and I'd take a trash bag to the room. Anything he can't be bothered to clean or put away will be trashed or donated and I would not replace it or give money to replace it. I already don't allow food outside the kitchen/dining area, so not sure what to tell you there. I wouldn't argue or debate it. I'd just say it in no uncertain terms. He broke the door. He lost the door. He trashed his room and didn't clean it up. If he wanted his stuff, he should have taken care of it and cleaned it up. He didn't. Someone else did. The end.

 

This sounds like a lot more than aspergers going on to me, but regardless, it still isn't okay.

 

If nothing else, younger siblings are watching and learning from his behavior, so I'd be willing to get really ugly to nip it if I had to. I wouldn't like it. No one would. But it beats being treated like that long term.

 

(((Hugs)))

[Jean in Newcastle]

I think that it helps to try and put ourselves in the shoes of our aspie kids.  They are feeling bombarded by stimuli and anxiety.  A teen aspie is also bombarded by hormones.  A stressful situation just magnifies that times ten.  A lot of what I do day to day is to try to minimize the stress.  Yes, I know that in the real world you can't always do that.  But I can do it to the best of my ability now. 

 

The hardest thing for me to do was to convince my aspie that I was on his side.  He needed to know that unequivocally.  It isn't easy to get that across when they are lashing out and trying to push you away.  But it was something I stressed over and over and over again. 

 

Setting up routines has been super important for us.  I worked hard to give him input into the routines and ownership of them.  I worked hard to reward sticking to them (as much as possible).  As routines would be slowly established (not all at once but one by one), I would warn him when we had to deviate from the routines so as to lessen the stress from doing so.  I showed him how routines helped him to be successful.

 

Walking away and giving him space was never about consequences or rewards.  It was about lessening the stress and allowing him to manage his emotions.  Contrary to popular opinion, aspies don't necessarily suffer from a lack of feelings.  Sometimes it is too much feelings that are so overwhelming that they just can't be identified and dealt with.  If I escalated things, then things would devolve 100% of the time.  I allowed him to communicate with me through text or e-mails or scribbled notes if talking about things was too hard.  But I encouraged him to wait until things were a bit less intense to do that communication.  And I worked hard at biting my tongue to give him advice on how to "fix" things because he just couldn't hear me.  This definitely was a situation where waiting until everything was calm was the best time to talk through things. 

 

I know that a lot of people probably wouldn't do what I did but I actually let him do school and other responsibilities at a snail pace for a couple of years.  We focused on some outside things like a job which taught him a lot more than academics could.  My ds has finally graduated high school.  He had a good entry level job and has just been hired at a much better job in his intended field.  And he will be attending college in the fall.  None of this would have been possible a couple of years ago.  Aspies can be late bloomers and I think we do our late bloomers a disservice when we push them beyond their capacity. 

[Guest]

1- take his door off his room. Seriously. Yeah, he'll be mad but that is so not okay.

 

2- make leaving the house NOT an option! 

 

3- Does your dh get involved at all? I'm sure he does cause from other posts he sounds like an awesome guy. 

 

4- Ya'll considered meds?

 

[Murphy101]

I don't think the problem is that he needs to learn to that apologies are social lubricants.

 

I think the problem is that he thinks treating his mother like crap is okay. No, it isn't. He doesn't get to say he is feeling defensive or has aspergers or wants to save face as an excuse for abusing any woman, and certainly not his mother. He cannot slam doors at/on her. He cannot punch holes in doors and turn his room into a biohazard and then storm off bc he doesn't want to deal with it (or more accurately, he wants to leave you to deal with it while he avoids any consequences) he doesn't get to belittle your pain that he caused by calling you names...

 

And no, it is not heartening to think he only treats you that way. Just like it isn't heartening to think he might have a great job and only treat his future wife or kids that way.

 

This is not a 3 year old who just needs to be taught to say sorry.

 

He is 16. Late bloomer and aspergers or not, he knows his behavior is uncalled for and unacceptable. And if he doesn't, he should be getting a most rude awakening to that fact right now. And it sounds like he knows this is usually unacceptable if as you say, this seems to be a problem he mostly or only has with mom.

 

Dad needs to have a serious man to man talk with him too.

[PeterPan]

That would have backfired with mine.  He would say, fine I won't go to college.  I'll just sit in my room all by myself.  That said, mine NEVER treated me like hers did, ever.  He has always been sweet, but you cannot force choices with him.

 

Then it wasn't motivating to him.  The point was that if it *is* motivating to him, it's a way to get in there.  

 

Our behaviorist took a number of sessions to figure out what really motivates ds.  There were things that would *temporarily* motivate him but that weren't deep down.  

[PeterPan]

1- take his door off his room. Seriously. Yeah, he'll be mad but that is so not okay.

 

2- make leaving the house NOT an option! 

 

3- Does your dh get involved at all? I'm sure he does cause from other posts he sounds like an awesome guy. 

 

4- Ya'll considered meds?

 

Just to play devil's advocate here, my ds' version of mad is very violent, meaning it's not like oh you made him mad but oh well.  And my ds will actually leave the house and be gone or leave in public places.  It's really freaky, and some kids of spectrum do that.  And a NT dh?  Wouldn't dream of asking him to get in the middle of that if there's no behavior plan, no professional help.  His tools for that would be of the totally NT variety.  If he had more tools, he probably would have already used them.

 

Just playing devil's advocate and saying Ktgrok could come back and say for her particular ds those would be disastrous.  Or maybe they'd be fine.  In our house, we are super careful.  I've done enough with taking advice and having it backfire.  That's why I keep suggesting she talk with the behaviorist herself.  

 

And yeah, sigh, meds... You're thinking ADHD meds for the op or something additional?

Edited July 4, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

Ok, I'll just say this and shoot it into the wind here.  If you're looking at it going ok, he turns 18, he doesn't have the life skills to live independently, he's still living with me AND I have no way to enforce things, which means some sort of placement.  So then that could be currency and motivating.  It's ok, final straw son.  You want to LIVE WITH ME, you use the behaviorist.  If not, you go to x placement that I have the legal authority right now to make happen.  Just the fact of being able to live with you could be motivating.  

 

He hasn't been motivated to make a change or comply or accept instruction, so I go back to what would motivate him.  

[Murphy101]

Then it wasn't motivating to him. The point was that if it *is* motivating to him, it's a way to get in there.

 

Our behaviorist took a number of sessions to figure out what really motivates ds. There were things that would *temporarily* motivate him but that weren't deep down.

Nothing like teaching manipulation as a purposeful relationship strategy....

 

I am sure it can work, just not at all sure I want it to.

 

And yes, it might have been motivating to him. Just not as much as a desire to not play mind games of manipulation with someone.

 

I would not have wanted any part of it either. Nothing causes me to turn tail and go in the opposite direction faster. Even from something I otherwise really do enjoy.

[zoobie]

Just to play devil's advocate here, my ds' version of mad is very violent, meaning it's not like oh you made him mad but oh well. And my ds will actually leave the house and be gone or leave in public places. It's really freaky, and some kids of spectrum do that. And a NT dh? Wouldn't dream of asking him to get in the middle of that if there's no behavior plan, no professional help. His tools for that would be of the totally NT variety. If he had more tools, he probably would have already used them.

 

Just playing devil's advocate and saying Ktgrok could come back and say for her particular ds those would be disastrous. Or maybe they'd be fine. In our house, we are super careful. I've done enough with taking advice and having it backfire. That's why I keep suggesting she talk with the behaviorist herself.

 

And yeah, sigh, meds... You're thinking ADHD meds for the op or something additional?

And DH isn't the child's father, so there's an extra layer of complication there. Plus doesn't it give an impression that a man needs to handle it because the woman can't take care of herself?

[Murphy101]

And DH isn't the child's father, so there's an extra layer of complication there. Plus doesn't it give an impression that a man needs to handle it because the woman can't take care of herself?

Not at all. It's not one bit different than my talking to my daughters bc sometimes kids listen better to the parent they identify with more. A husband talking to the son is not about saying mom can't handle it. It's about saying that mother is not just being a silly mom, she is right in this and as a man he support her and backs her on it. Because as a man, he knows that this young man is not living up to what it means to be a man or his best self when he treats mom like he has been.

 

How is tricky when it isn't his own father. But a boy still needs a father to step up for him.

Edited July 4, 2016 by Murphy101

[PeterPan]

And DH isn't the child's father, so there's an extra layer of complication there. Plus doesn't it give an impression that a man needs to handle it because the woman can't take care of herself?

 

And it's one step beyond that.  Not only is he not bio, but he's a man.  My ds is quite challenging.  Like straight 3s down certain sections of the GARS, and when our behaviorist came in I was TOTALLY SHOCKED she could get control of him.  Quiet voice and blooming pregnant she was.  

 

The LAST thing you want is some dynamic where he decides the person he complies with is the biggest or strongest or that Daddy ranks and Mommy doesn't.  That was a serious issue we had to flip in our house, and it involved finding motivation.  Now I have better control than dh (just saying), but it's because I have all these tools from the behaviorist.  And honestly, I work out.  I'm done being hurt.  I'm staying stronger than he is, but that's not a way I can win over the long haul.  It's not safe for anyone and it leads down bad roads.  

 

So I don't think it's (merely) his view of women.  I think it's just that he's choosing who he complies with and she's not on the list.  Sounds like almost no one is on the list.  So how does an employer get on the list and stay on the list when no one else has?

[TechWife]

Ok, I'll just say this and shoot it into the wind here.  If you're looking at it going ok, he turns 18, he doesn't have the life skills to live independently, he's still living with me AND I have no way to enforce things, which means some sort of placement.  So then that could be currency and motivating.  It's ok, final straw son.  You want to LIVE WITH ME, you use the behaviorist.  If not, you go to x placement that I have the legal authority right now to make happen.  Just the fact of being able to live with you could be motivating.  

 

He hasn't been motivated to make a change or comply or accept instruction, so I go back to what would motivate him.  

 

OP's son is much older than your son, therefore she is working with an entirely different scenario than yours. There is no way to force a person to participate in therapy. Attend, sure, you might be able to force that until the person in question outgrows you, but participate? No, you can't force that with a teen or an adult. Many people with AS need support  for all of their lives and therefore live with family members. Therapeutic placements should not be held out as a consequence of failure to do what the parents want the child to do. Therapeutic placement should be a positive thing whenever possible - a place where the person who needs help can go for that help and so s/he can live as independently as possible. Parents can't wield their "legal authority" because a child is having a hard time and send them away.

 

I am glad the therapy you are pursuing is working for your son. It sounds like a great match. As he grows and changes, please be aware that your approach may need to change as well. Puberty and adolescence have a way of mixing things up for all concerned quite a bit. 

[PeterPan]

Not at all. It's not one bit different than my talking to my daughters bc sometimes kids listen better to the parent they identify with more. A husband talking to the son is not about saying mom can't handle it. It's about saying that mother is not just being a silly mom, she is right in this and as a man he support her and backs her on it. Because as a man, he knows that this young man is not living up to what it means to be a man or his best self when he treats mom like he has been.

 

How is tricky when it isn't his own father. But a boy still needs a father to step up for him.

 

Sigh, I thought I needed this, and then I realized I didn't.  Because if he only complies for me because his father tells him to, he still doesn't understand.  We still don't REALLY have compliance.  

[ktgrok]

For instance, does he want to take those college classes?  Does that motivate him?  Then fine, he gets them so long as he also does sessions with the behaviorist.  No behaviorist, no college classes.  

 

He has you over a barrel if he gets what he wants AND he doesn't do the things you ask.  

 

He'd be happy to not take classes, lol. But he has to do something for school, or he's truant. 

 

As for the word consequences I used before, it was because someone said the natural consequence of him hurting me was for me to walk away. The problem is that that is a positive thing for him, and would be reinforcing the behavior, if you were thinking of it as having any effect at all. 

 

That said, walking away is still the best option because he does need time to de-escalate, and after my initial "ouch.....wait, are you making fun of me rather than apolgizing???" reaction, I did walk away. I didn't engage again until he was leaving the house, which he had earlier been told he couldn't do until he cleaned his room. Even then, I didn't escalate, and he did come back in a bit. 

[ktgrok]

Mixing and matching because I suck at multi quote:

 

His bio father is living on disability, is in renal failure, and has an extensive history of mental health issues, mostly major depression and anxiety. He is of zero help. He has never once held a boundary, or helped out in any way. That my son was at his fathers a few days before this happened is probably very relevant. Forget enforcing rules, he doesn't have any. I'm pretty sure he sleeps and plays video games most of the day. 

 

My husband is more than willing to step in, but the times he has my son has taken it as a threat, and acted out worse, sometimes physically. Obviously, that can't happen for legal reasons if nothing else. Trust me, my husband getting involved means things escalate. 

 

The idea of making him comply is impossible. The concept of nip it in the bud and let things get worse before they get better is not something that works for the other children in the house, and besides, it just ends up with my son shut down and more resentful, not actually changing his ways. It is NOT like setting boundaries with a neurotypical child. I cannot even begin to say how different it is than dealing with a neurotypical child. 

 

One of his co-morbidities is depression, which generally manifests as anger. He has a VERY strong family history of depression, his father, his paternal grandmother, paternal uncle, paternal great grandfather at least. All had life limiting anxiety and depression. At this point, my number one concern with my son is the depression, over and above academics, behavior, etc. Because suicide is such a threat at this age. 

 

He will not take meds. Not for ADHD, not for depression. Kids with Aspergers tend to be black and white thinkers, and to him mood altering substances of any kind are a no go. Which is good, in the sense I am not real worried about him becoming a drug addict, but bad because he won't try anything for his actual issues. He will drink coffee for the ADHD. That's it. Again, at his age, I cannot force medication. 

 

His one "currency" is the internet, which I do use. At the same time, I cannot turn it off forever and ever because that is where he does find his "place". He admins a server as a part time job, he has a good friend that lives overseas that he keeps in touch with online, and it is how he interacts with our local homeschool group. Again, keeping in mind that depression is an issue, taking away the one thing in life that he's really good at and makes him happy and helps him socialize is not something that can be done as a long term thing. short term, yes. 

 

Also, "bribes" make him even more resistant as they "insult him" as he puts it. 

 

I will look into working with a behaviorist myself, but he won't see one or work with one. 

 

Finally, if I push too hard, he can and will leave to live with his father, which would be the worst thing possible. With me he has made HUGE strides. HUGE. You have no idea. outburst like the other day are now a few times a year instead of a few times a day, or even a week. 

 

Also he is better with pretty much anyone than me at this point. I'm the last hold out for a lot of this, because I'm the safe person. Which is a blessing and a curse. In many ways he is a great person...he babysits without complaint and is good with his much younger siblings, will help me when I need it, etc. He is sweet to his grandmother, and has a good relationship with his grandfather although that was VERY rocky when he was younger, pre-diagnosis. He's polite to the neighbors, and generally makes me proud when out in public. He's come REALLY far. Which I guess makes these outbursts seem even worse, when they happen, because I don't expect them the way I used to. 

 

His work this coming year will be outsourced, and that will eliminate a lot of the remaining tension between him and me. Control is a huge issue for him, and has been since he was a toddler. I think that will help a LOT. 

Edited July 4, 2016 by ktgrok

[PeterPan]

Since he babysits for your littles, I would get social thinking books for them that he reads to them when he babysits.  ;)  Seriously.  Or like have the behaviorist direct you to books.  A lot of them are kind of incognito things that could just sort of magically appear in your library basket and you go hey while you're babysitting could you read them from this basket for their nap...

 

Just throwing out ideas there.  It definitely sounds like he's making a lot of progress with you, and YES, YES, YES, YES being with his father probably left him needing some time to get back into the swing of things on how things work at home!  They would have even without the ASD!  And with the ASD, even more so.  It's precious that he got the time.

 

If you're open to finding a behaviorist to talk with, they'd be really good for bouncing those things around with, like whether/how to use the internet access, blah blah, whatever.  If he needs physical outlets in his room, he may need safer physical outlets.  My ds has a closet with soft things, and we've been trying to teach him to throw soft things when you're angry, etc.

 

Another direction.  Will he even take a vitamin supplement?  There's a supplement aimed at ASD, and it has lithium in it.  Or Perrier water has lithium in it.  That's not a medical statement, just an observation. I can tell you in our house we concluded coffee/caffeine is not as effective as actual ADHD meds.  Like not even in the same ballpark.  I know you're saying he won't take them.  I'm just saying you could talk with the behaviorist about that, like how you could get some motivation there and get that to flip.  Ours wanted to know what we thought was most important to work on first, and I'm just saying that could be one.  Maybe it's not to you, but meds sure do help that regulation.  Whatever.

 

That pulling away on academics and spurting to be independent is typical of this age.  I'm guessing it feels WORSE because of the ASD and the withdrawal, but I'm just saying a component of it is just normal.  My dd is doing it BIG TIME, and she's not on the spectrum, lol.  

[PeterPan]

Will he even read a book?  There are some books for teens/adults on SocialThinking.com  Might be non-threatening.

 

Or they have a book on how to use movies to work through the social thinking concepts.  *You* could read the book, then sorta let that filter into your life with him.

 

 Socialthinking - Movie Time Social Learning

 

Socialthinking - I Get It! Building Social Thinking and Reading Comprehension Through Book Chats

 

And then just some goodies that could help you help him, letting stuff trickle into your conversations and lives

 

Socialthinking - Should I or Shouldn't I? What Would Others Think? Middle & High School Edition

 

Socialthinking - Social Behavior Mapping - Connecting Behavior, Emotions and Consequences Across the Day

 

Socialthinking - Social Thinking At Work

Edited July 4, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[luuknam]

If you want an easy behavior analysis textbook (more like a textbook and workbook in one), this one was used in a college class I took, but it's so easy I'd be more inclined to call it high school level:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Principles-Everyday-Behavior-Analysis-Printed/dp/053459994X

 

Which doesn't mean you shouldn't talk to a professional. But if you're going to be the one having to implement what a professional tells you to do because your son won't see the professional, then this would help you understand the basics without too much brain hurt.

[PeterPan]

I read widely and have piles of books, but the behaviorist brings to the table application, creativity, how to SAY it in a way that gets into his head without causing more problems...  And that person will *probably* be willing to take your emails and answer questions at any time.  That is GOLD in my book.  You'll write saying he did such and such, what do I do, and they'll write back.  

Edited July 4, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

Socialthinking - The Incredible Flexible You 5 Storybooks

 

These are something that would just magically appear in the basket he reads while he babysits.  Sneaky.  :D  Or there are TONS of books on amazon, books through your library on social thinking like...

 

I Can't Believe You Said That!: My Story about Using My Social Filter...or Not! (Best Me I Can Be!)

[SproutMamaK]

I have no helpful advice; my son is younger than yours, but I can complete see him being in this position in a few years. Puberty is hitting hard right now and holy heck, I'd heard how bad it can be with kids on the spectrum (or NT kids even) but I was SO NOT PREPARED. Anyway, I'm just posting because some of these book suggestion are perfect for my son so I want to follow the thread. :)

[ktgrok]

I will look into the books that would work for me to read. But he's had enough exposure to a social skills group to figure out that a book called social stories was targeted at him. He's smart, and that wouldn't fool him one bit. 

[luuknam]

I will look into the books that would work for me to read. But he's had enough exposure to a social skills group to figure out that a book called social stories was targeted at him. He's smart, and that wouldn't fool him one bit. 

 

 

Right. I was thinking he'd probably get mad at you for thinking he's an idiot who'd fall for that. I would have, at that age.

[ktgrok]

Right. I was thinking he'd probably get mad at you for thinking he's an idiot who'd fall for that. I would have, at that age.

 

Yeah, best case I'd get an eye roll. Worst case he'd be hurt and insulted. But either way, there is zero chance he wouldn't figure it out. He's not dumb, he's different, you know?

Edited July 4, 2016 by ktgrok

[PeterPan]

Btw, those books I listed were books I either own or saw in person.  I didn't just pull that list from a hat, kwim?  They're all super good.  The Social Behavior Mapping stuff isn't so rocket sciency.  The red book on social thinking from the ST site has it I think.  They gave us the jist at the workshop I went to.  The concept is simple, and the mapping book just gives you lots and lots of application.  It's the kind of thought process the behaviorist uses too, so it is just a quick way to get you thinking that way.  Then you'll be like oh duh...

[Robin M]

Hubby and I just went through Nurtured Heart classes. Something that drove me crazy with his therapists is they would tell me of the 5% of the time he was messing up, ignoring the 95% good work. Then expect me to give him a consequence for saying a bad word or bad gesture. Told them it doesn't work and I'd rather reward for the successes. They discovered nurtured heartt and the whole group went through training, then offered a class for parents. I could hardly say no, since I had suggested something similar.

 

The key thing in NH is not paying attention to negative behavior and giving our 16 year aspie attention for the positive. It's working and we have fewer arguments.

 

http://childrenssuccessfoundation.com/about-nurtured-heart-approach/

 

Yes, it sounds hokey but works. We found it works for ourselves as well as employees, etc. Worth checking out.

[ktgrok]

Hubby and I just went through Nurtured Heart classes. Something that drove me crazy with his therapists is they would tell me of the 5% of the time he was messing up, ignoring the 95% good work. Then expect me to give him a consequence for saying a bad word or bad gesture. Told them it doesn't work and I'd rather reward for the successes. They discovered nurtured heartt and the whole group went through training, then offered a class for parents. I could hardly say no, since I had suggested something similar.

 

The key thing in NH is not paying attention to negative behavior and giving our 16 year aspie attention for the positive. It's working and we have fewer arguments.

 

http://childrenssuccessfoundation.com/about-nurtured-heart-approach/

 

Yes, it sounds hokey but works. We found it works for ourselves as well as employees, etc. Worth checking out.

 

In dog training it has been shown that positive works better than negative, so I totally believe this. I'm going to check it out, thank you!

[Ausmumof3]

Yeah, best case I'd get an eye roll. Worst case he'd be hurt and insulted. But either way, there is zero chance he wouldn't figure it out. He's not dumb, he's different, you know?

I wonder if giving him an adult type book on neuroscience behind social behaviour would work better than a kid story? And not in a sneaky and deceptive way but an open kind of this is what I'm talking about and the science behind it way.

 

Obviously I have no clue about Aspergers but I'm sure if someone had snuck a social skills story in around where I'd seen it after a troublesome interaction as a teen I would have been mad as ... Ykwim. Obviously this depends on his reading level and whether he's even remotely interested or likely to read something like that.

 

Otherwise hugs, it's sucks. I think I would probably have escalated the situation because I just can't help myself even when I know it's not helping!

[luuknam]

In dog training it has been shown that positive works better than negative, so I totally believe this. I'm going to check it out, thank you!

 

A lot of ABA is about rewarding positive behavior. In the book I linked to there's an example where during some meeting with a guy who thought ABA was bullshit, they smiled at him every time he touched his chin (or something like that). By the end of the meeting the guy was touching his chin a lot, lol.

[Lecka]

This is a long story, but I was interested in options for my (adult) cousin, and I was aware for a lot for younger kids in my area, but not adults.

 

Anyway, I got advice to cold-call (I could say a person mentioned his name to me but it was cold calling) the director of a transition type of program at a community college several hours (3+) from me, but in the same state.

 

This person was happy to talk to me and knew about options around the state more geared for adults and transition age. (Or their parents, and I agree, it may be you are talking to someone about your parenting and choices for you, and it may not be directly for your son at this age.)

 

Then more recently there is a support group that has started in my area that is geared for adults and also parents of adults, and I have heard it is good, but I go to a support group aimed at parents of young children.

 

So those are thoughts I would have if you were local.

 

I can say, it was easy for me to talk to the person from the community college program. If there was any in your state, it might be worth calling just to see, even if it is far and there is no chance or interest for your son to go, but just to find out about resources for parents of adults and transition age.

 

Here your son would be called transition age and there are people who say they work with transition age and adults.

 

So I am hopeful that might be people who are more familiar with this age!

 

Good luck, it sounds like there is a lot going very well, and then some frustrations mixed in. I hope outsourcing more will work better next year.

 

Edit: I googled for "autism transition program Florida" and "autism transition Florida," and while nothing looked directly helpful, there might be things where you could call and they are familiar with resources or a person who might be a good fit.

 

Locally I would not recommend my son's ABA agency because I don't think they have clients who sound like your son.

 

But if I called around and it sounded like they were a good option, I wouldn't say "no." But I would feel better about saying to go to the support group and ask if there was a therapist there that people liked.

 

I think what can be really helpful is to get feedback about areas where you might be expecting too much, or too little. They are the people you hope can separate out what is Aspergers and what is 16 yo young man.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Lecka

[Valley Girl]

Hubby and I just went through Nurtured Heart classes. Something that drove me crazy with his therapists is they would tell me of the 5% of the time he was messing up, ignoring the 95% good work. Then expect me to give him a consequence for saying a bad word or bad gesture. Told them it doesn't work and I'd rather reward for the successes. They discovered nurtured heartt and the whole group went through training, then offered a class for parents. I could hardly say no, since I had suggested something similar.

 

The key thing in NH is not paying attention to negative behavior and giving our 16 year aspie attention for the positive. It's working and we have fewer arguments.

 

http://childrenssuccessfoundation.com/about-nurtured-heart-approach/

 

Yes, it sounds hokey but works. We found it works for ourselves as well as employees, etc. Worth checking out.

 

I looked at the website but don't really get a clear sense of what their method is or how it works. Since you've been through the training, can you explain a bit, maybe with an example. We work very hard to recognize the good stuff and approach correction carefully. But we still address the negative behavior. I'm trying to figure out what "not paying attention to negative behavior" looks like in real life.

 

[Robin M]

Okay,first change how ask kids to do things.  Instead of asking and saying can, should, would -  replace with need. I need you to do (fill in the blank)

 

I need you to take out the trash. I need you to get ready now. I need you to turn off the tv and get ready for bed.  Doesn't give them a chance to argue semantics

 

Instead of saying good job when they finish something, tell them what's good about it.  I noticed you came right away when I called you and you walked in the room quietly. You didn't interrupt and waiting for us to finish our conversation.   Or I appreciate that you didn't slam the door and closed it quietly.  I see that you immediately turned off the television without complaining and emptied the dishwasher.   I noticed that when the neighbors started shooting off fireworks, you didn't swear. You remained calm and took a deep breath and reset.  

 

James issue  - he starts talking before he even walks in the room, interrupting conversations and not paying attention to what we are doing.  Instead of lecture # 2000 and telling him not to interrupt, we say reset and try that again.  A reset is stopping what he is doing and taking a time out which can be 1 second to a minutes.    Enough time to take a breath or a few and refocusing.

 

One of the examples our leader gave us was about her obstinate grandchild.  She called her to come do something and the child barely moved her foot, so she said, I see your foot pointing in the right direction and are getting ready to do what I asked, I really appreciate that.

 

With older kids and teens, they may look at you funny the first few times and even ask what's up, why are you talking that way, but it works.  

 

Once you lay down the rules ( no talking back, proper tone of voice, how to respond, etc and what the consequences will be) and the rules are set down in stone - discuss and write down so they know what they are, there is no arguing or discussing, no second chances.  We say, You broke the rule and give the consequence.  Loss of privilege, etc.   

 

Here's a ted talk talking about the Nurtured heart approach and here's the book we worked through that has all the information - Transforming the Difficult Child

 

I can pull more info from the book and provide it if you need more detail.  Hope this helps! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 5, 2016 by Robin M

[Spryte]

Nurtured Heart has been amazing here, too.

[Valley Girl]

Okay,first change how ask kids to do things.  Instead of asking and saying can, should, would -  replace with need. I need you to do (fill in the blank)

 

I need you to take out the trash. I need you to get ready now. I need you to turn off the tv and get ready for bed.  Doesn't give them a chance to argue semantics

 

Instead of saying good job when they finish something, tell them what's good about it.  I noticed you came right away when I called you and you walked in the room quietly. You didn't interrupt and waiting for us to finish our conversation.   Or I appreciate that you didn't slam the door and closed it quietly.  I see that you immediately turned off the television without complaining and emptied the dishwasher.   I noticed that when the neighbors started shooting off fireworks, you didn't swear. You remained calm and took a deep breath and reset.  

 

James issue  - he starts talking before he even walks in the room, interrupting conversations and not paying attention to what we are doing.  Instead of lecture # 2000 and telling him not to interrupt, we say reset and try that again.  A reset is stopping what he is doing and taking a time out which can be 1 second to a minutes.    Enough time to take a breath or a few and refocusing.

 

One of the examples our leader gave us was about her obstinate grandchild.  She called her to come do something and the child barely moved her foot, so she said, I see your foot pointing in the right direction and are getting ready to do what I asked, I really appreciate that.

 

With older kids and teens, they may look at you funny the first few times and even ask what's up, why are you talking that way, but it works.  

 

Once you lay down the rules ( no talking back, proper tone of voice, how to respond, etc and what the consequences will be) and the rules are set down in stone - discuss and write down so they know what they are, there is no arguing or discussing, no second chances.  We say, You broke the rule and give the consequence.  Loss of privilege, etc.   

 

Here's a

talking about the Nurtured heart approach and here's the book we worked through that has all the information - Transforming the Difficult Child

 

I can pull more info from the book and provide it if you need more detail.  Hope this helps! 

 

This is helpful, Robin, thank you very much. I will definitely check out those additional links.

 

[ktgrok]

Ok, that sounds like positive reinforcement based dog training :)  It's behavior modification using positive rewards. We actually do a lot of that. I honestly think my background in dog training is probably how we've managed to make it this far. So things like "Hey, thanks for taking out the trash the first time I asked, I really appreciate it. Makes my morning go a lot smoother."

 

The fine line is that he can react negatively if he feels manipulated, so it has to be VERY low key. 

 

But, in good news, he came out and socialized with the neighbors last night for fourth of july and was polite and helpful :)

[DawnM]

And DH isn't the child's father, so there's an extra layer of complication there. Plus doesn't it give an impression that a man needs to handle it because the woman can't take care of herself?

 

 

For me, I needed DH to help.  He responds differently to my DH.  

 

DH actually asked his boss if he could start working from home 3 days a week and his boss said yes!  We were quite shocked actually.  But it has been a god-send.

 

And as far as therapy, we got a lot of resistance for a long time, but he did go, with arguing, and after a while he actually liked it.  But that initial few months was brutal.

[DawnM]

Okay,first change how ask kids to do things.  Instead of asking and saying can, should, would -  replace with need. I need you to do (fill in the blank)

 

I need you to take out the trash. I need you to get ready now. I need you to turn off the tv and get ready for bed.  Doesn't give them a chance to argue semantics

 

 

 

 

You have not met MY son!

 

"You NEED?  No you don't, you are perfectly capable of taking out the trash, you WANT me to do it, why don't you just SAY that instead of saying you NEED it?"

 

Yup, that would be my son.  He is VERY into semantics.  He will argue them.

[ktgrok]

You have not met MY son!

 

"You NEED?  No you don't, you are perfectly capable of taking out the trash, you WANT me to do it, why don't you just SAY that instead of saying you NEED it?"

 

Yup, that would be my son.  He is VERY into semantics.  He will argue them.

 

Ha! Exactly. So exactly this. 

[lllll]

nm

Edited July 9, 2016 by ~ d9n

[SproutMamaK]

You have not met MY son!

 

"You NEED?  No you don't, you are perfectly capable of taking out the trash, you WANT me to do it, why don't you just SAY that instead of saying you NEED it?"

 

Yup, that would be my son.  He is VERY into semantics.  He will argue them.

 

My kids are younger, so take this for what it's worth, but my son does this. I changed my language from "I want this" ["I want a trip to DisneyWorld, it's nice to want things." ...and they think autistic kids don't understand sarcasm] to "I need this" ["oh, so you'll DIE if I don't do it?"] to "One of your chores today is to do this, starting within the next 5 minutes." It seems to broker less arguments. He still doesn't want to do it, and he doesn't always follow through, but it least it's reduced the quibbling over verbiage as a distraction from what actually needs to get done.

 

[flyingiguana]

So.... We have sort of come out on the other side of this battle in our household.  My 23 yr old daughter basically walked away.  (This was after years and years of the above sort of things going on.)

 

We did attempt to keep up communication but she wasn't having any of it.  She just did not reply for two years.  Recently my husband had surgery and she AT LONG LAST respond.  But all she did was ask for her stuff back that has been cluttering up our house.  And she did not want to come pick it up. She wanted to arrange a time for her friends to come pick it up for her.  We offered to drop it off.  She would not hear of it.  And this very little bit of communication is going on through a PO box, because she doesn't want us to know where she lives.

 

I mean, I do KNOW, because, the internet.  But she seems to think she can hide behind a PO box.

 

Now, all of a sudden, she emails to tell us she's gotten married.

 

We're trying to figure out what this means.  Are we supposed to respond?  Given that she didn't respond for so long (except to demand that we allow her friends to pick up her stuff) the whole, congratulations, sorry we couldn't be at your wedding seems a little... odd.  She might be asking for presents.  Her new spouse might be demanding presents (this has been a common theme with this person  -- at one point they went through our house pointing out the things they wanted us to give to them right then and there.  Or else we didn't like them).  The might be demanding love or presents but those are really incidental because what they really want is for us to refuse -- so they can go whine more about how we treat them badly.  The real prize is getting to complain about us more.

 

If we go with our gut reaction to the whole thing, we just wouldn't respond at all.  Because there are a lot of people in this house who are hurting from her behavior.  And they don't want to just pretend the whole thing never happened.  Nor do they trust that she's grown up and will now treat people with respect.  

 

I'm not all that thrilled about having her friends come by to pick up her stuff either, as these are the same friends who made her even more what she is -- unpleasant and mean.  The person she has married is probably the worst of the ringleaders of this.

 

There's even more that's happened that I probably shouldn't get into the details of -- some of it involving trying to get friends of ours fired from their jobs and that kind of thing.  Things that have left us in a position of having to apologize for some pretty serious behavior out of our daughter.  And I'm not sure that our apologies have really fixed things between us and our friends.

 

So I'm curious if anyone has experience with these sorts of issues with older children that they might want to share.  Because I'm feeling at a bit of a loss as to how to deal with this.  We're beyond the age where therapy with all of us together seems appropriate.  And I'm not really thinking *I* need therapy.  Just that I need her out of my life.  But maybe that's an inappropriate response and maybe  therapy would lead me to see that it's inappropriate?

And whether the introduction of another person into the relationship who is even more messed up in how they deal with people has made it worse or better?

 

I'm just rambling.  Looking for thoughts....

[DawnM]

So.... We have sort of come out on the other side of this battle in our household.  My 23 yr old daughter basically walked away.  (This was after years and years of the above sort of things going on.)

 

 

I'm just rambling.  Looking for thoughts....

 

 

First of all:

 

:grouphug:

 

I didn't quote your entire post, in case you decide later to delete.

 

I am so sorry.  That has to be so difficult.

 

It sounds to me that she has some mental illness going on.  It may be more than Aspeger's.  If I were in your shoes, I would seek out some mental health professionals for advice.  *I* went to therapy some to help deal with my son and help me deal with my own emotions regarding my son.

 

With a therapist, you can tell her/him ALL the details and it might be more helpful than parcial info given and advice on a message board.

Edited July 6, 2016 by DawnM

[flyingiguana]

As for what the OP is going through now, my take on all this is that you can't fix them.  You can't even fix your relationship with them.  They have to be willing too.  And for some of these people, no matter how much we want to love them because they're our children, it just may not happen. 

 

I wouldn't think of consequences as punishment to make him better.  Because it isn't going to work. He's decided you are his punching bag.  It won't matter if you don't let him do that.  He'll then be angry that you didn't allow it.  He will win no matter what.  The only thing he will allow you to feel about him is anger.  But that's not your fault.

 

So you may be left with getting through the day to day stuff as best you can until they're out of your life.  Which is a terribly sad thing.

 

However, I will say that family life here is a LOT calmer.  We have discovered that we are not the horrible people our daughter made us -- or the horrible people she told us we were even when we WEREN'T arguing.  I have my husband back and it turns out he actually likes me.  Who knew?

 

This is supposed to be supportive, but I suspect it won't come across that way.  Perhaps it's words of wisdom for when you aren't having to deal with this day in and day out.  Maybe I'm just talking to myself from 5 years ago and assuring me it will eventually be ok.  For me.  And the rest of my family.  Even if the daughter who caused all this trouble is still suffering and there is nothing I can do for her.