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I am a long time lurker and reluctant poster.  I am having trouble clearing my thoughts after a meeting with a general psychiatrist this week.

 

 I request professional assistance to help understand the increasingly angry outburst from my 11yr ds (dyspraxia  with WISC scores 154 for verbal & math).   My son has issues with social interactions.  He does not seem to understand when to stop asking questions and lots of people get upset.  He gets upset when people don't answer his questions.  This cycle turns ugly and loud often.  

 

 

 It was a pleasant meeting however I have a few lingering issues troubling my brain.   It  was gently  suggested to me that maybe homeschooling  could not provide the level of education that might be needed.  I agree that  my son already knows far more than I understand.  He is taking some online writing classes and has tons of unschooling hours  for reading and researching  ideas that help quest his desire for knowledge.   It was suggested that I should attempt to get ds into a GATE or gifted charter school.  I was told the other children have similar issues stemming from gifted traits and a "little" peer pressure would help with the social interactions.  Also, the teacher are accustomed to this behavior and would be able to help.  

 

 

The local Gate and charter schools have long waiting list.  I have read many times that a profoundly gifted children do not usually fit in with normally gifted.  I wonder if the classes would progress fast enough to keep him from getting bored.  There are no local community college options.  (I dream of the dual enrollment that some of you post about).  

 

My troubled  lingering thoughts :

Now I am doubting homeschooling.     Is it possible to homeschool a profoundly gifted child with  limited local classes and online classes?  

 

Should I go to those school and beg to get ds a place?  

 

Then the big lingering issue - Socialization  Do I want my child socialized by peer pressure?   

 

I still have a child that ask nonstop questions to everyone he can corner and screams when we don't listen to his monologs.  Is this just a phase?   

 

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.  THANKS 

 

 

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My troubled  lingering thoughts :

Now I am doubting homeschooling.     Is it possible to homeschool a profoundly gifted child with  limited local classes and online classes?  

 

Should I go to those school and beg to get ds a place?  

 

Then the big lingering issue - Socialization  Do I want my child socialized by peer pressure?   

 

I still have a child that ask nonstop questions to everyone he can corner and screams when we don't listen to his monologs.  Is this just a phase?   

 

Yes, it is possible to homeschool profoundly gifted children without local classes. It helps if you have access to a university; my DD took her first college class at age 13 and by age 15 was tutoring calculus based physics at the tutoring center of the local four year university.

 

Whether you should investigate such a school, I cannot say. It would have to be a very good school to accommodate such a highly gifted student with such issues - things could be much worse.

 

Socialization by peer pressure is bunk. I cannot believe the psychiatrist suggested that. FWIW, many gifted kids do not relate well to same age peers.

 

Have you had your son evaluated for ASD? I am no expert, but the nonstop questioning and difficulties interpreting social cues would make me suspicious that he could be on the spectrum. In which case, putting him in a gifted school will do absolutely nothing and quite possibly make things worse. Did the psych not do a workup in that direction?

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Have you had your son evaluated for ASD? I am no expert, but the nonstop questioning and difficulties interpreting social cues would make me suspicious that he could be on the spectrum. In which case, putting him in a gifted school will do absolutely nothing and quite possibly make things worse. Did the psych not do a workup in that direction?

 

:iagree:

The nonstop questioning and difficulties interpreting social cues would concern me.  I would consider these issues separate from the educational concerns.

 

I think it would be a rare school that would have a gifted class that could meet your child's needs.  There are a lot of options when homeschooling.  We don't have a local college nearby, but MIT OCW and community mentors met my child's educational needs during the high school years.  He was extremely well prepared for college.

 

Good luck.

 

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My spectrum son has the social issues you describe. He's 12.

 

I don't think most schools/peer situations do a good job of "teaching" social skills to kids who don't just pick it up normally in interaction. You are describing a child who, like my son and autistic or not, isn't picking up social cues from others in a natural way. So you may want to think about autism type evaluations and, perhaps, interventions--though I don't have answers on the fix.

 

Of course I don't know about your specific options, but most schools aren't great with meeting the needs of academic outliers. 

 

:grouphug:

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It's hard to go the less traveled path. I'd place money on you NOT finding a professional in that field who would recommend homeschooling.  These people tend to believe in social institutions. 

 

My kid wasn't a constant questioner, but he did not want to be treated like a kid and dismissed.  So he often did question, demand, and grate on some adults (and kids if he noticed them).

 

If you choose to homeschool, you will doubt yourself.  You'll get frustrated.  People will tell you it's nuts.  But it can work out well and be a good thing for him.  I honestly do not think my kid would have fared well in a traditional school situation. 

 

 

 

 

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Can you get him on the waitlist? Then you can decide later if it is the right place for him. Good luck; sometimes the path is not clear.

 

That sounds like a good idea. 

 

And whatever you decide, nothing is really set in stone.  You can try the school and change your mind.  You can try homeschooling and change your mind.  I always forget that!

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My older boy struggled with explosions from about the age of 8 to 11.  Luckily I ran across The Explosive Child.  I was so blown away by the recommendations that I implemented them right away to great effect.  Get the book.  It is well worth your time.

 

I can't see how a school could handle the child you describe, even a special school.  You would have to be in Reno, I'm guessing, and have your kid attend the profoundly gifted kid school.  I can't see how being surrounded by people all day will socialize anyone.  My older boy always had 1 good friend and a brother.  We also kept him in activities about 3x per week, whether he was keen or not. Now he has activities every day of the week by his choice, and he is very social.

 

I think that we have homeschooled ds through his first couple years of high school quite effectively.  There is nothing that leaps out at me that says he could have done better in a school setting, except perhaps foreign language oral/aural skills (his reading/writing is good).  I quit working at ds's math level when he was 13, but I continue to give value in discussion led subjects like English and Philosophy.  Don't underestimate your own skills and knowledge base, especially in areas where there is a lot of grey and opinions.  Life experience is still worth a lot.

 

Good luck finding an appropriate path.

 

Ruth in NZ 

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Do you know any local homeschoolers? Sometimes they can give recommendations for homeschool friendly health care providers. They do exist. You might need to drive a little further to find one, though.

 

If possible, I would meet with a different psychiatrist for a second opinion. I also second the suggestion to find books that might help you and your child through this time.

 

Wishing you strength and peace for the journey.

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The assumption that tricky gifted kids with social skills gaps find their peers in GATE programs seems to me to be basically a lie sold to parents to placate them or a complete devaluing of the virtues of homeschool by people who only know about school.  This is based on both my experience and my friend's experience with her socially inappropriate daughter (sometimes its funny and often it is not at this point, and her gifted charter handles her no better than I would have expected- maybe worse bc there are no social skills groups and the social worker is inept.) 

 

Your son sounds like mine.  School was a complete disaster but hey, at least he graduated by the skin of his incredibly gifted little teeth.

 

 

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I am interested in knowing when it is inappropriate to keep asking questions.  I feel like kids like this need to learn how to do that after the lesson but also that a good teacher or presenter knows how to reassure the student that his questions CAN be answered but maybe with a brief wait...  a bridge to better patience is to have the kid write his questions down, for example.

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My spectrum son has the social issues you describe. He's 12.

 

I don't think most schools/peer situations do a good job of "teaching" social skills to kids who don't just pick it up normally in interaction. You are describing a child who, like my son and autistic or not, isn't picking up social cues from others in a natural way. So you may want to think about autism type evaluations and, perhaps, interventions--though I don't have answers on the fix.

 

Of course I don't know about your specific options, but most schools aren't great with meeting the needs of academic outliers. 

 

:grouphug:

I agree, but if the parent is not going to use the school's resources, then he or she needs to replace them with something else.

 

When my son was diagnosed, I know the therapist was concerned about homeschooling. The local ps would have provided him with specific social skills interventions that I could not. I made an active effort to quiz her on what would be provided and then made efforts to provide alternatives through homeschooling. I made social skills education a major part of our curriculum, set plans for reaching educational milestones, and kept his treatment team in the loop. 

 

The reason (sometimes) that the professionals want to see the child in a different setting is because doing it all and parenting is very difficult. Neither parent or child gets any downtime when the parent is teacher, therapist and supporter. If you (not OP but general "you") are going to tell the therapist that homeschooling is the only option, then I think it is important to let them know that you understand your responsibility to your child and that you will do everything you can to meet that responsibility. 

 

I would not put a socially inept child in the general population at school. But it might be that a school for gifted children is already populated with kids with similar issues. We chose to continue homeschooling but Ds attends a social skills group that includes similarly situated kids who attend several of the local public schools.

 

IMO, the first option the therapist presents is the one that will be easiest to implement and the one that most parents are going to be able to handle. If that option is unacceptable for some reason, then the parent is going to have to put forth major effort to implement a different one. 

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Social skills group is a good idea.  My son was most explosive and obnoxious around age ten as well.  I would HIGHLY encourage you to take the above suggestion of reading the Explosive Child.

 

I think that book was the beginning of my personal parenting revolution.  The crux of which was that I had to internalize the messge of the book, which is "CHILDREN DO WELL WHEN THEY CAN".

 

My over parenting and anxiety that I would mess it up (and my abusive spouse's treatment of me- continual blame and shame and emotional abuse) were major contributors to the issues we had with my son.  Hind sight is 20/20.

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I can't speak to your son's individual needs and challenges, of course, but FWIW, the educational psychologist (she has two PhD's, one of them specifically in gifted education) who worked with my son this year told me that "with a kid like this, you had no choice but to homeschool him.  It was your only option."  

 

It was hugely liberating to hear someone who truly knows what she's talking about affirm our choices and instincts.  It's hard when people who don't know our situation judge our choices.  Very few people, even professionals, understand what it's like to have a PG kid.

 

So I can only imagine how hard it was to hear someone who's supposed to be an expert tell you that a regular gifted school and some peer pressure will "fix" your son.  In our experience, gifted school programs only served to make DS feel more isolated and confused, because he was being told those kids were his tribe, and they just weren't.  His best friends come from environments that are wholy unrelated to academics: church, family friends, camp.  He doesn't have intellectual peers his age, and that's okay for now.  

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(Gently thinking out loud, I know RC isn't hugely loved on these forums...if you want to debate/malign RC, please don't do it here, so the OP can get her thoughts answered)  Have you considered a curriculum that would allow him to self-teach/move at his own pace?  I'll put a link to RC, there are others, A2 (Accelerated Achievement) is similar, perhaps something like Ambleside Online and let him move as quickly as he likes.  http://www.robinsoncurriculum.com/

 

Your son is much like mine, though mine is quite a bit older.  I didn't suspect ASD until a few years ago, and he was only diagnosed with PDD-NOS when he was young.  He's smart, probably not brilliant, I've never had his IQ tested.  But, while his outburst are MUCH improved, they happen on a much smaller basis (he is LOUD, and WILL talk VERY LOUDLY over someone to get what he wants to say out, and cannot be redirected), he still cannot read social cues AT ALL.  If I could do it again, I would try to get a diagnosis at your son's age, and see if you can get him ABA? therapy, or some sort of social skills classes.

 

I was quite taken aback a couple of years ago, my son and I were on the front porch, a new neighbor came over to introduce herself.  My son was his usual self, and then I sent him inside (because I hate how people...react? to him/treat him.  This lady did NOT do anything, though, but at the time I was trying to head it off.)  As soon as the door closed, she asked me, "Does he have Asperger's?"

 

My mother was a school teacher, Master's in Special Ed, she also thinks he has Asperger's, and had told me that about a year before the neighbor visit.  Just from reading online...it mostly fits.  Please, get your son evaluated, I really regret that I didn't.

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You guys are great with the fast replies. Thanks for your insight.

 

When he was administered the WISC by a different psychiatrist, she said "I did everything to pin autistism on him and he does not have it. He sounds like it and has several traits but he is not autistic. ". I did not ask her but wondered later what type test could rule out ASD. The ongoing questioning is killing everyone in our family. I will consider getting another opinion.

 

Good idea to get on wait lists. I can always make a decision when and if he gets to the top of the list. I have placed him in public school twice with dismal results.

 

I have made play dates with other kids and things almost never seem to work out. The peer pressure from those encounters really did not help the situation. Actually I don't think he even noticed the other kids signals. With the suggestion of peer pressure I thought maybe modelling from a gifted peer group might work.

 

I will get a copy of The Explosive Child. I need the questions and anger to stop.

 

Thanks for your replies. I will continue to work thru my options with your responses in mind.

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Social skills group and other autism services are available for homeschoolers in my area from my school district. What might work for one gifted child might not work for another. For example what might work for my younger son might not work out as well for my older son, but what work for my older son would very likely work for my younger.

 

The public school teachers and the psychologists we met advise us to homeschool. Only one psychologist thinks that my youngest social problems are due to "limited" social interaction and even that psych says more outside activites would be a lot better than the assigned public school.

 

While some of the private schools we toured could offer subject acceleration and grade skipping because they have the same subjects at the same time so kids can go to the math or language class at their level, they might not be able to handle the intensity of a very intense child.

 

My younger son did have exasperating social behaviours that being in outside classes helped. However outside classes were like a few hours for two to three times a week so different from full time school. He needed that peer pressure to stop talking because he didn't care that we were annoyed but he did care that everyone else were annoyed. He thought we were "noise sensitive" but didn't realise that he really talk too much even for people with no noise sensitivity to tolerate. However he does pick up social cues but choose to ignore them, which is different from my dad who is really oblivious. We pick classes were peer pressure is generally positive, mild teasing but no bullying that we know of, well organised and kids are generally well mannered, does their homework and prep for class. The positive environment in the outside class just reinforce the idea that certain behaviour like throwing a temper tantrum because you don't get your wish is not something a 10 year old should do, sulking quietly while not ideal is a better behaviour choice.

 

ETA:

We had the autism questionnaire to be done by both parents and hopefully two outside instructors. Then there is the observation of the child for a few hours as to how he/she interact.

Edited by Arcadia
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You guys are great with the fast replies. Thanks for your insight.

 

When he was administered the WISC by a different psychiatrist, she said "I did everything to pin autistism on him and he does not have it. He sounds like it and has several traits but he is not autistic. ". I did not ask her but wondered later what type test could rule out ASD. The ongoing questioning is killing everyone in our family. I will consider getting another opinion.

In my past professional life, I had occasion to refer several children for psychological evaluations. The psychologists I usually used were all *very* clear that diagnosing autism spectrum disorders was a specialized field within psychology and if any autism was suspected, I would need to refer to a specialist for that piece. There is only one psychologist in my smallish town who is specialized in diagnosing autism and even she would refer me elsewhere if it was a trickier case because while she had the training, she didn't have a high enough volume of clientele needing this service to feel as though she could accurately tease it out if there were a number of confounding factors.

 

When the specialists tell me that sometimes a more specialized specialist is needed, I can manage to recognize how difficult the diagnosis might be. And I highly advise a specialist.

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As I was composing my last response several of you offer more great insight.

 

I will look at an accelerated program for him to possibly work thru. Currently, he jumps around depending on his interest and how much time he has for a rabbit hole. This unschooling approaching is producing a vast knowledge bank.

 

I tried a community social skills program last fall. It was for grades 4thru 6. They presenter told the children that your emotions come from your heart. The class was over at that point as my son started explaining the parts and functions of the brain. He did not return for more sessions. Maybe I should not have washed my hands of social skill but it was bad. I will look for better options for him.

 

My son will get very loud. Most of his questioned seem to be providing guidance for others that he thinks needs help. Simple example. I am going to the store and he thinks I have left my purse at home. "Mom where are you going? "Mom are you stopping anywhere else? Mom are you buying anything? Mom is Dad buying anything? Mom why are you going to the store? He never comes out to say "Did you forget your purse? ". He uses a hundred leading questions to work around what he wants to find out or help correct my actions.

 

I will ask around for referral to an ASD specialist. People have commented over the years that he might have Autism.

 

Thanks again for your support!

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As I was composing my last response several of you offer more great insight.

 

I will look at an accelerated program for him to possibly work thru. Currently, he jumps around depending on his interest and how much time he has for a rabbit hole. This unschooling approaching is producing a vast knowledge bank.

 

I tried a community social skills program last fall. It was for grades 4thru 6. They presenter told the children that your emotions come from your heart. The class was over at that point as my son started explaining the parts and functions of the brain. He did not return for more sessions. Maybe I should not have washed my hands of social skill but it was bad. I will look for better options for him.

 

My son will get very loud. Most of his questioned seem to be providing guidance for others that he thinks needs help. Simple example. I am going to the store and he thinks I have left my purse at home. "Mom where are you going? "Mom are you stopping anywhere else? Mom are you buying anything? Mom is Dad buying anything? Mom why are you going to the store? He never comes out to say "Did you forget your purse? ". He uses a hundred leading questions to work around what he wants to find out or help correct my actions.

 

I will ask around for referral to an ASD specialist. People have commented over the years that he might have Autism.

 

Thanks again for your support!

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My husband and I both taught at risk kids. There was and still is a huge autism bubble at the school. Whether your child is autistic or not, I cannot say. However, the behavior is very similar so I will share what has worked. Kids who were excited talkers to the point of an issue, were told they could have six questions. No more. At a seventh question they were removed from class and isolated for five minutes (this was merely to make a very extreme point. As you have mentioned, social cues and subtlty are not strong :) ). The child was not in trouble, but needed a very firm, repeated message. Often, there is anger at first. The anger is not discouraged. The message is reinforced - if you do not like this situation, you only get six questions. Think about what you want to say first. Write the questions down. Listen to others if they ask one of your questions and see if the response answers you. Some kids needed popsicle sticks to hold, some did not.

 

It takes usually about a month, and student catches on. As you are well aware these kids are not dumb. Self focused, but not dumb.

 

You could do something similar with having a designated talking hour where he gets all of your attention. Perhaps start with twice a day and see how it goes. Outside classes and people would just flat out not allow the behavior. It is not peer pressure, it is just they won't put up with it. This might have been what the therapist was getting at. None of the excited talkers I have known picked up on peer pressure. If they did, there would not have been a problem.

 

FWIW, next year my son will be 12. I do not know his IQ, but his testing has given him the label of PG. He has been in full high school classes for the last two years and beginning AP next year. Next year, two of his classes are outsourced. By 14 he will be beginning community college. There is no way I should still be teaching him. Mentoring him - yes. Mothering him - yes. Not teaching. That would be hindering his development. He needs someone to brutally hold a line with him and let him know *he* has to bend to their expectations.

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We did about 2 years of one-on-one therapy before Ds was ready for a social skills group.

 

Do you think one on one therapy would be beneficial for an adult?  

 

DS wants to join the military, so I am, at this point, reluctant to force him into a diagnosis or any sort of therapy (that would disqualify him immediately).  We do not think he can hold a job if it has any amount of interaction with other people.  I didn't learn about ABA therapy until last summer, I wish I'd been told about it when we were told he was PDD-NOS (I do know that's on the spectrum, but I also know it doesn't automatically mean a child is autistic, though I read this link and DS would fall in that first 25% that are high-functioning but have speech/language problems...and we DID do years of therapy for those.  Incidentally, that link says PDD-NOS became a thing 15 years ago...DS was dx'd with it 17 years ago)

 

There are plenty of people like him in the military, but DH intends to talk him out of joining, if at all possible.  DD is also trying to talk him out of it, she told us this weekend that she has a young man at work exactly like DS and he is "tormented" 24/7 (not bullied exactly, but no one can stand to be around him, so he isn't trained properly, he has no situational awareness, quite frankly, he's a disaster/accident waiting to happen).  DD said in Boot Camp, anyone like DS was a target for the Drill Instructors BIG TIME.  DS doesn't have the capability of shutting up...ever.  He can't understand that someone screaming in his face is not the time to SMILE.

 

I'll be watching this thread with interest, maybe I can roll back time.

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Do you know any local homeschoolers? Sometimes they can give recommendations for homeschool friendly health care providers. They do exist. You might need to drive a little further to find one, though.

 

If possible, I would meet with a different psychiatrist for a second opinion. I also second the suggestion to find books that might help you and your child through this time.

 

Wishing you strength and peace for the journey.

 

I've gotten some good recommendations from other homeschoolers. 

 

Although I still have yet to find a therapist who was truly supportive of homeschooling.  The last two I told up front I homeschool and them having a problem with that was a deal breaker.  They both said they are fine with it.  The first one said oh absolutely no problem.  Ok.  So the first one clearly was anti homeschooling.  That was highly noticeable after the first visit.  The way in which she managed to reason in her mind that she was pro homeschooling is that she believed she herself was a homeschooler because she read to her kid, helped him with homework, and took him to museums.  I kid you not.  She called that homeschooling.  I flat out told her she was being highly insulting with those comments.  Then the second was better about it.  Her take was that as a therapist and professional she has to accept that people choose to do things differently sometimes.  Ok.  Except little by little she'd make little jabs and comments about it.  It was subtle.  But, for example, she would say oh she knows of so and so kid who benefited greatly from the public school and they had been so supported there.  Good for her.  I didn't go to her for school issues btw.  I didn't talk school with her at all beyond telling her I homeschooled.  The issue had nothing to do with school.  But clearly she wasn't as open minded as she claimed.

 

I've homeschooled for over 10 years now.  I'm not going to suddenly "see the light" because of some head shrinker.  Yes, full disclosure, I have not had a lot of positive experiences with these people and in general do not like them.  I just gave up.  I get way better advice and help on this message board!  This is not to say don't go to one.  You just might have to get a very thick skin, and be firm with what you want and don't want. 

 

Frustrating. 

 

Our pediatrician is definitely not anti homeschooling.  In fact I'd say he is pro homeschooling.  He came highly recommended among local homeschoolers. 

 

 

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My PG kid was a basket case with unschooling. Those questions sound like they are anxiety. He is worried. Anger comes from a feeling of loss of control and fear often times. Does he need structure? He will borderline hate it, more than likely, but does he need it?

 

Injecting structure might help. He is unschooling in the sense that he plows thru educational YouTube videos for hours each day. He is delighted with each new video or when he finds new YouTube bloggers to follow. He did all the crash courses for fun. This year he did an online writing class from WTMA and it worked great for him. He is working thru AOPS math But needs hand holding every step of the way. Each year he completes the local required currculum objectives for his grade to fulfil our homeschool regulations(not a difficult task but provides some structure). This month I purchased several Great Course with the plan of using them for springboards. His day to day activities are extremely flexible. I will consider scheduling his activities on a daily planner to see if that helps.

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Each year he completes the local required currculum objectives for his grade to fulfil our homeschool regulations(not a difficult task but provides some structure). This month I purchased several Great Course with the plan of using them for springboards.

 

I'd consider grade skips/compacting doing multiple years in one year. I also wanted to point out that there's The Great Courses Plus where you can stream many Great Courses for $20/month or $15/month if you buy the 1 year subscription.

 

I was going to suggest what EndOfOrdinary suggested - giving him only a limited number of questions he's allowed to ask in a given amount of time.

 

What happens when you stop answering his questions - if I understand correctly he starts screaming - what do you do when he starts screaming?

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Hobbes did not catch on to how conversation was meant to work.  I had to explicitly teach him when he was about ten.  If someone says 'uh huh' or similar twice in a row, it was time for him to a) change the subject, b) be quiet or c) ask a question of the other person.  He now doesn't remember the training, but it's the basis of the decent conversational style that he now has.

Edited by Laura Corin
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In my past professional life, I had occasion to refer several children for psychological evaluations. The psychologists I usually used were all *very* clear that diagnosing autism spectrum disorders was a specialized field within psychology and if any autism was suspected, I would need to refer to a specialist for that piece. There is only one psychologist in my smallish town who is specialized in diagnosing autism and even she would refer me elsewhere if it was a trickier case because while she had the training, she didn't have a high enough volume of clientele needing this service to feel as though she could accurately tease it out if there were a number of confounding factors.

 

When the specialists tell me that sometimes a more specialized specialist is needed, I can manage to recognize how difficult the diagnosis might be. And I highly advise a specialist.

I was just about to write something like this. A professional who deals with autism as a speciality will be able to give a more nuanced diagnosis than some who is looking to see if a client meets criteria in the diagnostic manual.

 

I would want to pursue seeing a specialist, because an accurate diagnosis can be the first step to a treatment/education plan.

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I will ask around for referral to an ASD specialist. People have commented over the years that he might have Autism.

 

Thanks again for your support!

I just wanted to comment that, if people said that to you, you are probably someone who is open and willing to accept reality. (There are so many parents who deny that their kid could have any differences.) Whatever happens, I think you outlook will play a very positive role!

 

😊😊😊

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Hobbes did not catch on to how conversation was meant to work.  I had to explicitly teach him when he was about ten.  If someone ways 'uh huh' or similar twice in a row, it was time for him to a) change the subject, b) be quiet or c) ask a question of the other person.  He now doesn't remember the training, but it's the basis of the decent conversational style that he now has.

 

That's brilliant, thank you!

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Do you think one on one therapy would be beneficial for an adult?  

 

Yes! I worked with someone (and need to resume) who was able to point out to me when I just didn't get what comes natural to others. 

 

I also watched this series:

http://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/how-conversation-works-6-lessons-for-better-communication.html

 

There is a lot of information that people who have take for granted and those who don't have no idea is missing. 

 

FWIW, up until the last version of the DSM, PDD-NOS covered Asperger's (I think). If I understand correctly, under the old DSM, you could not have ASD and ADHD. So if a child came up with ADHD, then there would be no ASD dx. I may be misunderstanding the exact rules. But basically, a lot of what was NOS before may now qualify as ASD.  Either way, there is going to be a lot of overlap as far a therapies. 

Edited by MomatHWTK
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FWIW, up until the last version of the DSM, PDD-NOS covered Asperger's (I think). If I understand correctly, under the old DSM, you could not have ASD and ADHD. So if a child came up with ADHD, then there would be no ASD dx. I may be misunderstanding the exact rules. But basically, a lot of what was NOS before may now qualify as ASD.  Either way, there is going to be a lot of overlap as far a therapies. 

 

Yeah, no, that's not exactly how it worked. A lot of kids were diagnosed with ADHD first (because it's what pediatricians are more familiar with and will happily diagnose kids with), and then later the diagnosis was changed into ASD after seeing a specialist (and the ADHD diagnosis technically dropped, but often still mentioned to help describe the kid), but I haven't heard of anyone not getting an ASD diagnosis because they also met the criteria for ADHD.

 

Also, Asperger's and PDD-NOS were both diagnoses in the old DSM, and did not "cover" one or the other. PDD-NOS was often ASD but just barely missing one of the criteria for either an autism or Asperger's diagnosis (my younger brother got a PDD-NOS diagnosis because he makes eye contact - which was a misuse of the PDD-NOS diagnosis, as making eye contact does not disqualify you from getting an Asperger's diagnosis, but w/e).

 

I think a lot of what was PDD-NOS now falls under social communicative disorder or w/e it's called, the rest under ASD (not too familiar with the new DSM - my special interest has waned quite a bit). It's all spectrum, it's not like neurologically there are clear boundaries between all the various diagnoses, so w/e.

 

Not that I'm a mental health professional.

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Your son's IQ is one in 5,000, give or take.

 

It is not only possible but quite likely that the psychiatrist you saw has never seen a child as intelligent as yours, and assumes it's more or less the same as a kid with an IQ of 135 or so.

 

Very bright children are often well served by gifted schools.  IME, they are targeted toward moderately and maybe highly gifted kids - 125-140 or so.

 

A profoundly gifted child is as different from a moderately gifted child, in terms of brain function/intelligence, as the gifted child is from an average kid.  It is a different kettle of fish.

 

I would find another psychiatrist if you can.

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Have you applied for the Davidson Young Scholars program yet? I know they maintain a list of professionals and other programs in different parts of the USA that may be helpful, and the Davidson parents often have suggestions as well. Your DS definitely qualifies. It's been life changing here.

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Your son's IQ is one in 5,000, give or take.

 

It is not only possible but quite likely that the psychiatrist you saw has never seen a child as intelligent as yours, and assumes it's more or less the same as a kid with an IQ of 135 or so.

 

Very bright children are often well served by gifted schools.  IME, they are targeted toward moderately and maybe highly gifted kids - 125-140 or so.

 

A profoundly gifted child is as different from a moderately gifted child, in terms of brain function/intelligence, as the gifted child is from an average kid.  It is a different kettle of fish.

 

I would find another psychiatrist if you can.

THIS. My oldest daughter's IQ is in the 135-145 range, and even though she has significant dyslexia, her educational options are far broader than her brother's.  There are any number of schools where she could thrive.

Your kiddo may have legitimate behavioral issues that need to be addressed so he can be happy and successful.  But this psychiatrist may not be up to the task of advising you.

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Have you applied for the Davidson Young Scholars program yet? I know they maintain a list of professionals and other programs in different parts of the USA that may be helpful, and the Davidson parents often have suggestions as well. Your DS definitely qualifies. It's been life changing here.

 

 

I wish I could use Davidson Young Scholars program.   We are Americans but living in Canada on a work visa.  The Davidson website says we must be residing in the US.   The minute we move back to US,  I will be applying!  :))

 

Finding resources in the post secondary institutions here in Alberta is also very difficult.  I can only dream of dual enrollment.  

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THIS. My oldest daughter's IQ is in the 135-145 range, and even though she has significant dyslexia, her educational options are far broader than her brother's.  There are any number of schools where she could thrive.

Your kiddo may have legitimate behavioral issues that need to be addressed so he can be happy and successful.  But this psychiatrist may not be up to the task of advising you.

I believe that I need to travel in find a psychiatrist to met our needs.   I can easily travel to Washington dc area or Tennessee for testing.  I am willing to travel to any locations for a great recommendation for gifted psychiatrist.

 

It is just occurring to me that I should search this forum for recommendations.  

 

Thanks again for your support!

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I wish I could use Davidson Young Scholars program.   We are Americans but living in Canada on a work visa.  The Davidson website says we must be residing in the US.   The minute we move back to US,  I will be applying!   :))

 

Finding resources in the post secondary institutions here in Alberta is also very difficult.  I can only dream of dual enrollment.  

 

I'm glad that they say that on the website these days.  We went to the trouble of applying and being accepted (Calvin has a US passport) only to be told that they would do nothing for us because we lived in Hong Kong.

 

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I wish I could use Davidson Young Scholars program.   We are Americans but living in Canada on a work visa.  The Davidson website says we must be residing in the US.   The minute we move back to US,  I will be applying!   :))

 

Finding resources in the post secondary institutions here in Alberta is also very difficult.  I can only dream of dual enrollment.  

 

Homefree3, what part of Alberta are you in?  I am in Edmonton, and while my daughter is "only" moderately gifted, I might be able brainstorm some resources.  :)  

Heather

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I'll see what I can find on TN-what part?

 

My family is in the middle Tn area. I usually drive between Nashville and Washington DC every 12-18 months. That is after driving from Canada.....long road trips to visit scattered friends and family.

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If you can find a PG or HG class or group for him, please don't assume that they will effect him through "negative" peer pressure. He might really appreciate encountering same age kids who process the world in the same way and at the same speed as him. For that matter, teachers trained in gifted issues can be a magnificent resource for both him and you.

 

Imagine being a Martian among Earthlings and then one day discovering "OMG ANOTHER MARTIAN COLONY! I thought I was the last of my tribe but I am not alone on this planet after all."

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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If you can find a PG or HG class or group for him, please don't assume that they will effect him through "negative" peer pressure. He might really appreciate encountering same age kids who process the world in the same way and at the same speed as him. For that matter, teachers trained in gifted issues can be a magnificent resource for both him and you.

 

Imagine being a Martian among Earthlings and then one day discovering "OMG ANOTHER MARTIAN COLONY! I thought I was the last of my tribe but I am not alone on this planet after all."

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I would agree with that. Seeing my DD interact with other PG kids was eye opening. Because suddenly, she was NORMAL-just another 'tween in a group of 'tweens, fully reciprocal, fully involved. Just at light speed and on topics rather out of the norm.

 

And that's why, when she started crying at the idea that this was real, but she couldn't have it, we started seriously considering moving 3/4 of the way across the USA just so she could have that community. Because it was such a difference. A week from now, she'll be in a group of PG kids again, and has been waiting for this all year long.

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I really don't agree  that peer pressure will help him learn social cues.   Peer pressure can be quite aggressive he will probably feel like he's being bullied.    Not because kids want to bully, but they don't know the right way to handle the situation either.  He needs an experienced adult counseling him on social cues to help him understand.

 

I had a situation once where I had information from a child's parent about how her son was feeling, from my own son about her son's actions, and my own observation on how he was treating people.  What I thought I was seeing was a kid trying to get laughs by annoying people.  What my son and the other kids saw was a kid who needed strong admonishment because he didn't acknowledge lighter admonishments.  But the kid, who was actually very sensitive, felt harassed and bullied  and that no one liked him.   When I told my son it was upsetting him, he said "Oh!  I didn't know that!  I'll let everyone know to be nice to him instead."  (Ack!!!!)  Clearly, it would've helped to have an adult mediate the situation a lot earlier, but I suspect i was the first to hear both sides of the issue.  But to expect kids to diagnose and fix another kid's social interactions is asking way too much.

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Not sure if someone else has said this already, but the ADOS is the test a (knowledgeable, trained) psychologist would administer to see if your DS is on the spectrum.  You want to be very careful and go to someone who is familiar with profound giftedness (which is as different from gifted as gifted is from "average") or willing to learn.  There are many traits that those who are gifted and especially PG have in common with those who are Aspergers, and there are some important ways to differentiate between the two.  If you haven't already looked at it, I highly recommend reading the book Misdiagnosis and Dual Diagnosis of Gifted Children by James Webb, et al.  It will help you evaluate these distinctions. There is also a great spreadsheet on the SENG website for parents to fill out that helps distinguish between gifted, ASD or both.  

 

I have a PG daughter (then 6) who I was worried about having ASD because she was just so so different from any other kid in our rural community. We traveled to go see someone who was an expert on PG kids and who sat in on her ADOS to help tease out what was just PG and what might be something else.  In the end, she did not qualify for a diagnosis (of ASD or ADD, which her school at the time was pushing for)-- it's just that she's PG and PG kids have all the over-excitabilities in the extreme.  This can often LOOK like ASD or ADD, but again, there are important distinctions (that the book talks about).  I'm pretty confident that if we had gone to someone who didn't know about profound giftedness, we might have gotten a misdiagnosis.  

 

My heart goes out to you, I know how tough it is to be in the limbo around what may or may not be going on.  One thing the psych who evaluated DD said was that even though DD isn't on the spectrum, there are materials used with ASD kids that could help her slow down and develop her social skills.  In homeschool we can do that-- we call it "psychology class" (which she loves, and we do more than social skills stuff, but it's a big component).  

Edited by DoubleTime
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Sure-- here are some of the things I've done with her:

 

We started by reading  I Am Not a Short Adult! Getting Good at Being a Kid, by Marilyn Burns (Brown Paper School Book)

 

Then we did the following (starting last fall):

 

For social skills:

 

Social Express App -- sign on/ manage through the computer   

Superflex Social Thinking Curriculum  (this is a huge curriculum aimed towards flexible thinking for kids with ASD, ADD, etc., we focused on what was relevant)

Social Thinking and Me (the middle-school version of the above)

 

For general psychological/ emotional education, plus development of growth-mindset and self-expression (verbal expression, analysis, making connections and abstract reasoning are her major strengths, so I wanted to emphasize discussion and debate to capitalize on that.  We also studied philosophy this year for the same reason, and there were lots of links between psychology and philosophy that we could talk about.):

 

What Do You Stand For: A Guide to Building Character  (there's a card game that goes with this)

The UnGame

What Makes me Feel this Way? Growing up with Human Emotions

Brainology course 

Cool, Calm and Confident: A workbook to help kids with Assertiveness Skills

She got into child development so read all of Brazelton's guides -- led to her reading all the parenting books from our shelves  :huh:

Crashcourse Psychology lectures

 

 

For anxiety and the like:

 

What to do when you Worry too Much, What to do when your Brain Gets Stuck and What to do when Mistakes Make you Quake--  these are APA workbooks for anxiety, OCD and perfectionism, we spread them out and did no more than one chapter a day, really implementing the strategies, my DD LOVED these and wanted them all (even the ones that didn't apply)

Coping Cat: Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy for Anxious Children

Mad Dragon card game

From Worrier to Warrior: A Guide to Conquering your Fears

Meditation:  Mindful Movements, Handful of Quiet, we meditate as a family using Buddhify every night

 

 

 

Sure I'm forgetting something, but there you have it!

 

 

 

 

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