Advice - Spouse with Mental Issues - Child Custody

[goldberry]

Deleted some info for privacy...

 

A few days ago mentally unstable spouse was meeting with her therapist, and the therapist had her check into a hospital due to suicidal thoughts.  Therapist recommended she stay in the hospital for at least a week.

 

Some of us in the family are worried that even when she gets out she might try to take off with the kids.  There would be nothing legally stopping her.  Is it possibly while they are still married for husband to get any kind of temporary legal custody of the kids?  Would her being mentally unstable to this extent be enough to do that?

 

FYI, she has been under care of a therapist and doctors for several years.  Nephew has done everything possible to get her help.  Many times she refuses to cooperate.

Edited June 1, 2016 by goldberry

[zoobie]

He needs a good family law attorney. Yesterday.

[goldberry]

Yeah, some others in the family are saying, "She would never take off with the kids, because she knows she can't take care of them without help."  

 

I think it's kind of naive to think she is thinking rationally at this point.  

[zoobie]

If she has suicidal thoughts, it's not a far leap with a mom with severe PPD/psychosis to harm the kids too. I wouldn't be as worried about her taking off as in moving to a new state and setting up shop. That's fairly easy to track these days.

[goldberry]

Well, that's part of what they are discussing is maybe for her to go stay with her family for awhile until she can get stabilized.  But she has this big "control" thing of the kids, and I don't think she would ever leave them with the husband.  I could see her freaking out over that even being suggested.

[Rosie_0801]

Of course she would freak out. People do freak out when you mess with their identity.

 

The only thing I can do is agree that Husband needs to see a family law lawyer. He can't get legal custody of the kids because he already has it. You're talking about depriving her of rights.

[foxbridgeacademy]

Is he ready to take steps that will cause her to leave him?  He can maybe, with a lawyer, get a protective order that she is not to be unsupervised with the children.  Not because of the leaving the state/area but based on that her being a danger to herself she might attempt suicide while being responsible for the children, thus leaving them alone and in danger..... I don't know but the longer he waits the more likely bad things will happen.  Right now is the perfect time, with her in hospital, to get things done.

[MinivanMom]

He needs a family law attorney to help him get things sorted immediately.

 

Is the plan for mom to simply be released or will she be transitioning to an outpatient program? You can't just whisk her away to stay with family against her will. And I would be very concerned if a plan like that prevented her from seeing her established therapist.

 

He may have no choice but to file for a temporary protective order, but that will have long term consequences. He needs to consult a lawyer.

[MinivanMom]

Just to add: 

A dear friend of ours went through this with his wife. She started having mental health problems when their children were very small. She called the police to falsely report him for domestic violence. After the police showed up and listened to her paranoid ramblings about how she was sure her husband was inserting devices in the wall to monitor her, they warned him that he needed to take steps to protect himself and the kids, because if she filed false charges against him, they would have no choice but to arrest him . . . and he could lose the kids.

 

He didn't take the steps necessary, because he just wanted to help her and wasn't ready to file for divorce. Anyway, he wound up accused of domestic violence, and the children were removed from both of them and placed with the maternal grandmother while child protective services tried to sort it all out. He filed for divorce and was eventually awarded sole custody of the children, but not until after many months of court dates and court-ordered mental health evaluations to establish what had actually happened. He counts himself very lucky that she never tried to hurt the kids. The situation could have had a much more tragic ending.

[goldberry]

 

The only thing I can do is agree that Husband needs to see a family law lawyer. He can't get legal custody of the kids because he already has it. You're talking about depriving her of rights.

 

You're right, I didn't think of it like that.  

 

I don't know if he is ready to think along those lines yet.  It's been very difficult, he has just been barely surviving. 

[Sdel]

We have custody of a grandkid for these issues. This is very serious issue. Dad needs to put the kids first while dealing with this in case things go wrong and he gets penalized by being with the mom. Someone might need to go to court for some kind of temporary guardianship until things can get worked out.

 

Stefanie

[goldberry]

Is he ready to take steps that will cause her to leave him?  He can maybe, with a lawyer, get a protective order that she is not to be unsupervised with the children.  Not because of the leaving the state/area but based on that her being a danger to herself she might attempt suicide while being responsible for the children, thus leaving them alone and in danger.....

 

She hasn't shown any indication of danger to the children... is someone who tried to commit suicide automatically unsafe with their children?  That's doesn't seem to follow.

[Rosie_0801]

I don't know if he is ready to think along those lines yet.  It's been very difficult, he has just been barely surviving. 

 

I'm not surprised. We don't take classes in school on dealing with this stuff, more's the pity.

 

He needs someone to help him.

[Sdel]

She hasn't shown any indication of danger to the children... is someone who tried to commit suicide automatically unsafe with their children? That's doesn't seem to follow.

Yes. And it is a reason to keep the kids from a parent indefinitely. If dad gets caught up in it, he'll be collateral damage unless he's made effort to distance himsel.

 

Stefanie

[JustEm]

She hasn't shown any indication of danger to the children... is someone who tried to commit suicide automatically unsafe with their children? That's doesn't seem to follow.

Well you say she is also controlling in regards to the children. If she is suicidal and she believes the husband may take actions to get the kids away from her she could do it. It doesn't mean she will but it is a more likely possibility than if she wasn't already controlling of them.

[Anne in CA]

He doesn't want to deal with it now, but my dh didn't deal with his ex when she was like this and we paid for it for the next 20 years and their dd (who I  consider my oldest since I raised her since she was very small) pays for it even now. Denial is very powerful, but someone who isn't mentally stable, yet wants to control the kids is not going to get easier. The games they play are going to go for higher and higher stakes, and they are better liars than you might think. A mentally ill person who wants to control the kids is not going to pay the price. The kids are going to pay the price. I wish I didn't know this.

[bolt.]

I don't know exactly, legally speaking, but I think he might...

 

1. Set up daily consistent childcare with a professional nanny or daycare. Not "family members helping out in a crisis" -- a true set up for long-term competent care. Pretty much like he would if she wasn't able to do any care. When she returns, he should say (a) the kids are so happy with the care, (b) he paid for the whole month in advance, ( c ) they can afford it, so why doesn't she just ease back into parenting life by letting him keep up those pleasant arrangements.

 

2. Keeping an open one-way line of communication with the professional(s) in her life -- call once a week or so and leave a message about how things are at home. This establishes a baseline so that if things hit the fan, it won't seem out of the ordinary for him to call and explain worsening conditions at home.

 

3. Journal and carefully document all episodes of mental health difficulty, and/or arguments, and/or difficult parenting moments.

 

4. Intensely research how to be supportive and completely undemanding in his relationship with her (as a short-term measure) and enter therapy for himself so that he can be successful without using his marriage for his own mental health.

 

5. Get the kids all kinds of ID, and whatever can be done to register them (maybe fingerprints?) in case they become missing children. Make copies of essential documents and keep them in an unpredictable place. Consider putting location-broadcasting microchips or something in a variety of beloved objects (like teddy bears) of practical objects (like suitcases).

 

6. Is there a way for him to alert the local law enforcement that he is concerned about her breakdown and the potential of false accusations and/or a custody run? Perhaps call the police non-emergency number and ask for advice.

 

7. Can a lawyer draw up a post-nuptial agreement for them (if she consents) that has an 'in the event of marital separation we agree to the following custody schedule' section? Is it remotely plausible that anyone would agree to that? If so, if she separates (and she might) she would be already bound by a custody order that could be enforceable.

 

8. Create a bank account for himself in case joint accounts begin to be an issue.

 

9. Create a 'bug out bag' for himself-with-kids, just in case. Habitually his keys in a safe non-grab-able place, and a pair of his shoes in his vehicle.

 

Ok, seriously, this sounds suspiciously like a how-to list for an abusive and controlling man who wants to prevent his wife from successfully leaving him. I feel icky. I hope your nephew is a good guy, not someone who actually is controlling and helping create this postpartum storm. I hope with good treatment his wife will return to herself. It's really worrying.

Edited June 1, 2016 by bolt.

[zoobie]

I would not put the kids in childcare or move any money around without consulting an attorney.

[Janeway]

Yes, he needs to get a temporary court order for custody now. Then later, there will be a formal hearing.

[OneStepAtATime]

As Rosie pointed out, he is the father still married to the mother.  He already has custody, along with the mother.  He would not be seeking custody for himself, he would be looking at ways to protect the kids from the other parent that has custody.  Presumably he is also trying to help his wife and preserve his marriage.  What he needs is an attorney.  Now.  Immediately.  

 

And yes, if a parent is suicidal, has a long history of mental health issues and is very controlling of the kids, that parent may very well feel it necessary at some point to actually harm the kids, regardless of how much they love them.  Not because they have any desire for their kids to suffer but because it prevents the kids from being taken away or controlled by another or suffering at the hands of another, someone she may see as a threat, as potentially dangerous.  

[Danestress]

It's pretty hard to stop someone from taking off with kids. Even with a court order, some people don't care about the court order and mental instability does not help much. It's like saying, "How do I keep my child from running away?" You child already can't run away, legally. Doesn't mean he won't do it anyway.

 

Does your nephew plan to continue to live with his wife when she comes home? If so, he may not be able to file an action for custody, but he needs to talk to an attorney about the laws in the state where he lives. If not, does he have a plan? Is he planning to move out? Force her out? Again, he needs an attorney.

 

It's a difficult situation. Having suicidal thoughts is unlikely to prevent her from being able to have custody/visitation with her children, especially if she has not acted on those thoughts or harmed herself or the children. It sounds like she voluntarily went to the hospital rather than being involuntarily admitted. Is that right?

 

People tell each other all the time that they are going to leave and take the children. You didn't really describe her mental health issues, but you didn't describe anything that, in my state, would necessarily trigger an emergency custody order. In my state, he probably would have to separate from her, file a complaint for custody, and take the time it takes to reach an agreement or get a court date. Her failure to care for the kids will be relevant then, of course. However, the fact that he has to work and then come home and care for the house, the food and the kids - well, that's going to be a permanent state if he wants custody of them, so I sure would think about how to express that without sounding like it's a burden he can't handle.

 

He needs to figure out what he wants. Does he want to be married (even if it's just for now, just for the kids, etc) or does he want to separate? Until he has a course set, the rest of you probably need to support both of them, love on both of them, take care of the kids as much as you can if asked, etc. If he plans to continue to live with her and thinks he temporarily needs someone there to care for the children with her while he is at work, he probably will need her to agree with who the helper is going to be. If I were his family member, I would want it to be me, and would want to do nothing to make her distrust me. If he needs to hire someone, he needs to do that, and maybe you all can help with the expense. After all, if he wants custody, he will have to pay for care for the children during the day while he is at work.

 

Talking to an attorney might help him make decisions. It might help him clarify what he wants, how to proceed best whether he decides to leave the marriage or stay in it, how to best protect the children etc.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Danestress

[Ausmumof3]

I don't know exactly, legally speaking, but I think he might...

 

1. Set up daily consistent childcare with a professional nanny or daycare. Not "family members helping out in a crisis" -- a true set up for long-term competent care. Pretty much like he would if she wasn't able to do any care. When she returns, he should say (a) the kids are so happy with the care, (b) he paid for the whole month in advance, ( c ) they can afford it, so why doesn't she just ease back into parenting life by letting him keep up those pleasant arrangements.

 

2. Keeping an open one-way line of communication with the professional(s) in her life -- call once a week or so and leave a message about how things are at home. This establishes a baseline so that if things hit the fan, it won't seem out of the ordinary for him to call and explain worsening conditions at home.

 

3. Journal and carefully document all episodes of mental health difficulty, and/or arguments, and/or difficult parenting moments.

 

4. Intensely research how to be supportive and completely undemanding in his relationship with her (as a short-term measure) and enter therapy for himself so that he can be successful without using his marriage for his own mental health.

 

5. Get the kids all kinds of ID, and whatever can be done to register them (maybe fingerprints?) in case they become missing children. Make copies of essential documents and keep them in an unpredictable place. Consider putting location-broadcasting microchips or something in a variety of beloved objects (like teddy bears) of practical objects (like suitcases).

 

6. Is there a way for him to alert the local law enforcement that he is concerned about her breakdown and the potential of false accusations and/or a custody run? Perhaps call the police non-emergency number and ask for advice.

 

7. Can a lawyer draw up a post-nuptial agreement for them (if she consents) that has an 'in the event of marital separation we agree to the following custody schedule' section? Is it remotely plausible that anyone would agree to that? If so, if she separates (and she might) she would be already bound by a custody order that could be enforceable.

 

8. Create a bank account for himself in case joint accounts begin to be an issue.

 

9. Create a 'bug out bag' for himself-with-kids, just in case. Habitually his keys in a safe non-grab-able place, and a pair of his shoes in his vehicle.

 

Ok, seriously, this sounds suspiciously like a how-to list for an abusive and controlling man who wants to prevent his wife from successfully leaving him. I feel icky. I hope your nephew is a good guy, not someone who actually is controlling and helping create this postpartum storm. I hope with good treatment his wife will return to herself. It's really worrying.

This last is kind of what bothers me with the post. I mean family helping a bit and Dh doing some food and housework is pretty normal with a six month old I would think. So it's hard to get what's meant by "she isn't able to care for them" a does this mean at all or just without a lot of support.

 

Not that I disbelieve you at all, but I have personally seen some ppd cases where the spouse expectations and behaviour were a significant contributor. Given that she had previous issues it's probably not the case but I'd want to be really sure.

[goldberry]

They don't have money to hire anyone outside, they are barely making it.  He does want to maintain the marriage.  

 

Deleted for privacy - summary = yes, she really can't take care of the kids.  

 

I think he is not going to take any action because of his desire to maintain the marriage.  He is hoping the hospital stay may get her stabilized.  We have given advice that he see a lawyer, but I don't think he is going to.

 

Thanks for confirming what we were all thinking. :(

Edited June 1, 2016 by goldberry

[MinivanMom]

It's really good that he's made arrangements for someone else to care for the children. He should never leave the children alone with his wife. He needs to do the speech exercises with the two-year-old. Basically, he needs to start acting like a single dad: drive the kids back & forth to childcare, take the initiative on dr's appointments and therapy, do the shopping, cleaning, laundry, etc. All of these things are his responsibility now, and I would encourage and support him in stepping into that role. It will be so important later on in court.

 

I am so sorry you're going through this. It's so hard to watch a situation like this unfold and not be able to help in the ways that are obviously needed. Maybe the best thing you can do right now is to encourage him to step up into the single-father role, ask around about good divorce attorneys, and have some family members lined up who are willing to help with legal expenses. He has to reach that decision on his own, though.

[Catalytic]

Woah, wait a minute.  The man wants to maintain the marriage...why should he be asking about divorce attorneys?  Didn't he say that whole "in sickness and in health" thing?  I agree the kids shouldn't be left alone with her, and she definitely needs to seek help, or be forced to seek health (actually this whole thread has brought Andrea Yates to mind, and you don't even want to know what I think about Russell Yates), but if this man wants to maintain the marriage, I can't see encouraging him to ditch her.  I can see him forcing her to seek help, even "Baker Acting" her, if needed.

[eternalsummer]

This is all somewhat confusing.

 

It seems like you are saying that A. she claims husband (and family member, who I assume are her in-laws) are controlling her access to the kids and B. husband would like to have even more control over access to the kids because C. she isn't taking good enough care of them.

 

Those things are all true, right?  He *is* controlling her access to the kids (as is, peripherally, the family member he is giving them to instead of her).  She *can't* take care of them right now.

 

Maybe after she is stabilized it would work better if she and your nephew could work out a plan together for the kids' care (in which, unfortunately, he probably does a lot more of the work for some time).

 

Would she feel better if the relative came over to her house to help her with the kids, or just dropped in every couple of hours to make sure things were going okay that day?  She might even feel less marginalized if the kids were in the care of one of her family members (if possible) or in a daycare situation.

[Sdel]

They don't have money to hire anyone outside, they are barely making it. He does want to maintain the marriage.

 

Regarding care of the kids.. if it is short periods of time, she doesn't let them get hurt or do anything dangerous. She keeps them in the same room with her, the bedroom or the living room. When husband has come home after longer times, she has at times been closed in her room on the bed, with kids in with her on the floor. Kids have not been fed, have dirty diapers.

 

They have a family member that husband has been dropping the kids off to during the day. Mom started saying he was taking the kids away from her, and that she had no control over what he did with them. (

This is extremely concerning, especially since the mom is so concerned with control. Considering a 2 y/o and 6 m/o, this is severe neglect. If CPS were to somehow get involved the kids would be yanked from the dad as well unless he was prepared to distance himself from mom. You all need to realize that the mom is not likely to ever improve in regard to caring for the kids. This kind of indifference from a parent over their childhood leaves worse scars than the physical neglect.

 

My DIL and stepson are this situation. DIL is too unstable to raise the kid and my stepson is too co-dependent to stand up to her and put the kid first. Hence, three years later the kid is still with us. In this situation, the wife is the adult and the kids need to be put first and protected from their mom. If she can get better, great, but if not, then it's sad, but they need limited exposure to her.

 

Stefanie

[zoobie]

Woah, wait a minute. The man wants to maintain the marriage...why should he be asking about divorce attorneys? Didn't he say that whole "in sickness and in health" thing? I agree the kids shouldn't be left alone with her, and she definitely needs to seek help, or be forced to seek health (actually this whole thread has brought Andrea Yates to mind, and you don't even want to know what I think about Russell Yates), but if this man wants to maintain the marriage, I can't see encouraging him to ditch her. I can see him forcing her to seek help, even "Baker Acting" her, if needed.

A family lawyer can advise on all sorts of issues. He can want to maintain the marriage all he wants, but if she's unstable, his primary responsibility is to keeping the children safe. That could at some point require a TPO. He's at a crisis point now. He shouldn't wait until absolute rock bottom to figure out how to protect himself and his children. Talking to a family law expert does not mean filing for divorce.

 

A lawyer would explain to him that leaving the children alone with someone he knows to be unfit is child endangerment on HIS part. He should not leave her alone with them.

Edited June 1, 2016 by zoobie

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Woah, wait a minute.  The man wants to maintain the marriage...why should he be asking about divorce attorneys?  Didn't he say that whole "in sickness and in health" thing?  I agree the kids shouldn't be left alone with her, and she definitely needs to seek help, or be forced to seek health (actually this whole thread has brought Andrea Yates to mind, and you don't even want to know what I think about Russell Yates), but if this man wants to maintain the marriage, I can't see encouraging him to ditch her.  I can see him forcing her to seek help, even "Baker Acting" her, if needed.

 

The safety of my children is a far higher priority for me than that of my marriage. When someone who generally refuses to get help for mental health issues becomes suicidal and then begins threatening to take my kids and leave, "in sickness and in health" goes out the window. What would we tell a woman whose husband had mental health issues, was becoming upset over a perceived lack of control over the kids, who became suicidal, and who then started telling her he might just take the kids and leave? Would we suggest that she back off and start offering him more control and leaving him alone with the kids MORE? No, we'd tell her to start saving money, start a paper trail, and get family involved.

 

The safety of the kids is paramount here, IMO. It takes quite a lot to force someone to seek help (including, possibly, showing them that their access to their children may be cut off), and it takes some time and proof to "Baker Act" someone. In the meantime, a lot of bad things could happen to those kids. 

Edited June 1, 2016 by ILiveInFlipFlops

[goldberry]

This is all somewhat confusing.

 

It seems like you are saying that A. she claims husband (and family member, who I assume are her in-laws) are controlling her access to the kids and B. husband would like to have even more control over access to the kids because C. she isn't taking good enough care of them.

 

Those things are all true, right?  He *is* controlling her access to the kids (as is, peripherally, the family member he is giving them to instead of her).  She *can't* take care of them right now.

 

Maybe after she is stabilized it would work better if she and your nephew could work out a plan together for the kids' care (in which, unfortunately, he probably does a lot more of the work for some time).

 

 

 

 

Yes, this is all true, and that is the problem.  She cannot take care of the kids.  Yet she is angry that he is getting someone else to help take care of them.  They can't work out a plan together, because she says, "I can take care of them" even though she can't.  She perceives it as husband and family being "against" her. 

 

We are hoping she gets stabilized.  But the reality is that she has been being treated and on medication for years without getting stabilized.

 

At this point, the kids haven't been left alone with her for more than a run to the grocery store or fast food place.  They are not being neglected.  I described what the husband witnessed because someone wanted to know what it meant that she "couldn't care for the kids".   Once husband saw that she wasn't able to care for them, he didn't let the situation continue.  

[TranquilMind]

She hasn't shown any indication of danger to the children... is someone who tried to commit suicide automatically unsafe with their children?  That's doesn't seem to follow.

 

Agreed.  It is a totally different mentality altogether.  It is ridiculous to suggest they are the same.  Most who kill themselves would never have hurt a fly. 

The woman has already agreed to go into a hospital for mental issues.  There isn't going to be much of an issue to get the kids away from her, should the husband choose to do so.

 

[QueenCat]

Since he wants to maintain his marriage to his wife, he likely still loves her. That's a good place to start from. Hopefully, with good care, they can get to the point where she can supervise her own children again. How he approaches keeping them safe in the meantime should reflect the ultimate goals. Plenty of people with mental illnesses DO get to the point where they can successfully parent and be a partner to their spouse.

[QueenCat]

Yes, this is all true, and that is the problem.  She cannot take care of the kids.  Yet she is angry that he is getting someone else to help take care of them.  They can't work out a plan together, because she says, "I can take care of them" even though she can't.  She perceives it as husband and family being "against" her. 

 

Her behavior is very normal for someone going through what she is going through. Hoping good therapists can help the whole family.

[goldberry]

Thanks for the advice and perspective.  I'm deleting some posts for privacy.

[foxbridgeacademy]

deleted 

Do I think someone who in the past has tried to self harm is a danger to their children, no (sorry I wanted to make that clear), but someone in the throes of a depression that is contemplating serious harm to themselves?  Yeah, I do consider them a danger and I would do everything I could to protect the kids until she got better.

 

I think it could be argued by a decent  lawyer that while she may currently not be a direct danger to her children she shouldn't be left as their sole caregiver in case she decides to self harm, leaving very young children alone for hours, which is dangerous. 

Edited June 1, 2016 by foxbridgeacademy

[lmrich]

If he will not see a lawyer, can he see a social worker, one who can aid in mental health issues? Can he make sure she goes to an out-patient unit during the day while he works? Can he see a counselor or someone to guide him through this? I am sure he is overwhelmed and misses his wife.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Do I think someone who in the past has tried to self harm is a danger to their children, no (sorry I wanted to make that clear), but someone in the throes of a depression that is contemplating serious harm to themselves?  Yeah, I do consider them a danger and I would do everything I could to protect the kids until she got better.

 

And who has begun to say that she will take the kids away from their father. That would scare me the most out of all of this. It's where I see the situation going from "support needed" to "protection and possibly preventive measures needed."

Edited June 1, 2016 by ILiveInFlipFlops

[zoobie]

She hasn't shown any indication of danger to the children... is someone who tried to commit suicide automatically unsafe with their children? That's doesn't seem to follow.

Short answer, someone currently suicidal, yes. She could commit suicide or attempt it in a way that could unintentionally harm them. Think of that story where the mom in Texas (?) killed herself in the car with her kids. No one found them for days, and they were in a parking lot!

 

Would you leave your children in her care? I wouldn't, not even for a grocery or food run. Kids stay with stable adult at all times.

[Tammyla]

Does he have a counselor?  A good therapist for him and even the children might be helpful.  It sounds like he is set in his path for now, but not rocking the boat may blindside him later.   I'll hope the mom is stabilized and on a good monitored course for care/recovery.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Tammyla

[MinivanMom]

If he will not see a lawyer, can he see a social worker, one who can aid in mental health issues? Can he make sure she goes to an out-patient unit during the day while he works? Can he see a counselor or someone to guide him through this? I am sure he is overwhelmed and misses his wife.

 

This is a very good suggestion, especially if he doesn't want to consult a lawyer.

 

I just want to reiterate what a previous poster said: consulting a family lawyer does not mean that he has to file for divorce. A family lawyer is the best person to advise him on the legal ways to prevent the children from being in the mother's care if the mother is currently unsafe. I'm not sure he could prevent the mother from picking the kids up from daycare without some kind of court order or protective order. This is really something that has to be talked over with a lawyer in his state who specializes in family law.

[Catalytic]

A family lawyer can advise on all sorts of issues. He can want to maintain the marriage all he wants, but if she's unstable, his primary responsibility is to keeping the children safe. That could at some point require a TPO. He's at a crisis point now. He shouldn't wait until absolute rock bottom to figure out how to protect himself and his children. Talking to a family law expert does not mean filing for divorce.

 

A lawyer would explain to him that leaving the children alone with someone he knows to be unfit is child endangerment on HIS part. He should not leave her alone with them.

 

Upthread someone specifically mentioned him starting to seek out a good divorce lawyer, that was what my post was in response to.  As I said in my post, this thread reminds me of Andrea Yates, and I think he needs to be damn certain those kids are kept safe.  I personally would not leave the children with her AT ALL, EVER, until she had a decent length of history of being much better.  That said, he wishes to stay with the mother, so he needs to do what's necessary to help her get better, whether she wants it or not imo.

 

The safety of my children is a far higher priority for me than that of my marriage. When someone who generally refuses to get help for mental health issues becomes suicidal and then begins threatening to take my kids and leave, "in sickness and in health" goes out the window. What would we tell a woman whose husband had mental health issues, was becoming upset over a perceived lack of control over the kids, who became suicidal, and who then started telling her he might just take the kids and leave? Would we suggest that she back off and start offering him more control and leaving him alone with the kids MORE? No, we'd tell her to start saving money, start a paper trail, and get family involved.

 

The safety of the kids is paramount here, IMO. It takes quite a lot to force someone to seek help (including, possibly, showing them that their access to their children may be cut off), and it takes some time and proof to "Baker Act" someone. In the meantime, a lot of bad things could happen to those kids. 

 

I agree with the safety of the kids being the top priority, which is why I brought up the Baker Acting, if necessary.  I just don't think jumping to finding a divorce lawyer is the right thing to do if he wants to preserve the marriage.

 

 

Do I think someone who in the past has tried to self harm is a danger to their children, no (sorry I wanted to make that clear), but someone in the throes of a depression that is contemplating serious harm to themselves?  Yeah, I do consider them a danger and I would do everything I could to protect the kids until she got better.

 

I think it could be argued by a decent  lawyer that while she may currently not be a direct danger to her children she shouldn't be left as their sole caregiver in case she decides to self harm, leaving very young children alone for hours, which is dangerous. 

 

I wouldn't leave a known suicidal person with a child for any reason, whether I suspected they would harm the child or not.  Depression is crazy, it can convince people of all sorts of things, and for that reason I would not consider a suicidal person suitable to watch a child until they were treated and shown to be improved.

[Maus]

Deleted some info for privacy...

 

A few days ago mentally unstable spouse was meeting with her therapist, and the therapist had her check into a hospital due to suicidal thoughts.  Therapist recommended she stay in the hospital for at least a week.

 

Some of us in the family are worried that even when she gets out she might try to take off with the kids.  There would be nothing legally stopping her.  Is it possibly while they are still married for husband to get any kind of temporary legal custody of the kids?  Would her being mentally unstable to this extent be enough to do that?

 

FYI, she has been under care of a therapist and doctors for several years.  Nephew has done everything possible to get her help.  Many times she refuses to cooperate.

It's actually a good sign that she agree to go the hospital.  That is cooperating.  It would have been voluntary, as the only way for an adult to be admitted involuntarily is if they are harming themselves or others and the police intervene.

 

She hasn't shown any indication of danger to the children... is someone who tried to commit suicide automatically unsafe with their children?  That's doesn't seem to follow.

No.  It absolutely does not follow.  Depression is very inward most of the time.  It is so rare for a depressed person to hurt another person that it is newsworthy because of how unusual it is.  Most depressed people or suicidal people never make the news.  As someone else mentioned, there is a slight danger that the children could be accidentally harmed or that they could witness trauma, but it is slight.  Most suicidal people, however irrational their behavior otherwise, want to spare their children and go to great lengths to make sure it won't be a child who finds them.

 

Well, that's part of what they are discussing is maybe for her to go stay with her family for awhile until she can get stabilized.  But she has this big "control" thing of the kids, and I don't think she would ever leave them with the husband.  I could see her freaking out over that even being suggested.

The hospital will be working on getting her stabilized.  That's what they do there.  They will monitor and adjust her meds as needed, and she will meet daily with a therapist.  Her own therapist likely recommended the hospital for that very reason.

 

Yeah, some others in the family are saying, "She would never take off with the kids, because she knows she can't take care of them without help."  

 

I think it's kind of naive to think she is thinking rationally at this point.  

No, she probably isn't, but she was rational enough to realize she is irrational and to take the therapist's advice.  That is a really good thing.

 

 

 

My spouse is severely mentally ill.  He struggles with MDD (Major Depressive Disorder) and severe OCD w/atypical symptoms.  Here are some things we have learned.

 

He checked himself into the Psych ward once, and came out more stable than he'd been in a long while.  He's been in the ER several more times, but chose to commit to visit his regular therapist and to not act on his suicidal thoughts or to self-harm until he kept that appointment.  My brother's now adult foster daughter checks herself in several times a year, because she senses she's becoming irrational.  She comes out and is able to cope for four or five months, and then circles back through.

 

If the therapist learns something that would indicate the children are in danger, that is the one circumstance in which the therapist is actually required to say something, so if s/he hasn't, there probably isn't.  For added assurance, your nephew could ask his wife to sign a HIPPA that would allow the therapist to discuss her with him.  Then he could meet with the therapist every so often himself, bring up his concerns, get the therapist's take, and learn some things to help.  Even if she won't sign, the therapist can talk in general principles and can discuss anything the nephew reports.  The two of them together can decide if she can handle the children.  

 

(So, without the HIPPA, the therapist couldn't say, "Well, she says....", but he can say, "What you observed is typical.  Here's what you do..."  Ours did this for me until DH eventually signed a HIPPA naming me as someone to whom his information could be released.  For instance, I once reported, "He hit his head against the wall until he had a concussion."  And the therapist was able to respond and say, "Hitting your head against the wall is a form of self-harm.  It usually accompanies OCD.  In DH's case, when he does this, you might try...."  Which is actually quite a lot of information, all without breaking HIPPA.)

 

If the family backs off because they are afraid of her, it will do a lot of harm.  Mental illness thinks it wants to be isolated, but connection is one of the biggest tools used to fight it.  (Sleep, meds, exercise, and a good therapist are other great tools.)  DH has one circle of friends who are able to see him as a good and delightful person who just happens to have an illness.  Hanging out with them does him so much good.  On the other hand, hanging out with his own family does not.  They choose to remain in denial and to treat him as fragile and different.

 

Depression tends to come with really abysmal self-esteem.  Chances are good she's also worried about her ability to take care of her kids.  Tread carefully, because she probably is capable of being a great mom, but doubts on your part will reinforce any doubts on her part. 

[goldberry]

Maus, thank you for that insightful post.

[ocelotmom]

She hasn't shown any indication of danger to the children... is someone who tried to commit suicide automatically unsafe with their children?  That's doesn't seem to follow.

 

No, the vast majority of people with mental illness would never try to harm anyone else, especially their children, even if they would hurt or kill themselves.

 

While it would be naive to think it never happens, I hope people keep in mind that there are plenty of individuals potentially reading this post who suffer from some form of mental illness, and the harm that the unfounded assumption that someone who is mentally ill might attempt to harm their children can cause to a family.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

No, the vast majority of people with mental illness would never try to harm anyone else, especially their children, even if they would hurt or kill themselves.

 

While it would be naive to think it never happens, I hope people keep in mind that there are plenty of individuals potentially reading this post who suffer from some form of mental illness, and the harm that the unfounded assumption that someone who is mentally ill might attempt to harm their children can cause to a family.

 

While this is true, extra information was given in the initial and subsequent posts that make some of us more concerned for the children than if mom was just having suicidal thoughts. The information has been deleted (and I don't blame the OP at all for doing so), but that's what's driving some of our responses. 

Edited June 2, 2016 by ILiveInFlipFlops

[zoobie]

While this is true, extra information was given in the initial and subsequent posts that make some of us more concerned for the children than if mom was just having suicidal thoughts. The information has been deleted (and I don't blame the OP at all for doing so), but that's what's driving some of our responses.

This, plus there is a real risk of accidental injury if the person is suicidal while caring for small children. Leaving a mom in crisis with PPD/PPS alone with tiny kids is not going to help her either. No one is talking about average run of the mill depression here. It takes a pretty serious illness to be hospitalized for a week.

[Sdel]

No, the vast majority of people with mental illness would never try to harm anyone else, especially their children, even if they would hurt or kill themselves.

 

While it would be naive to think it never happens, I hope people keep in mind that there are plenty of individuals potentially reading this post who suffer from some form of mental illness, and the harm that the unfounded assumption that someone who is mentally ill might attempt to harm their children can cause to a family.

 

 

Keep in mind, I'm practically living this situation.  Mentally ill mom who is/has been "suicidal", years of therapy and never quite stable was not only severely neglectful of the kid but did made a direct threat of harm against the kid.   Child was removed from the dad because he refused to acknowledge the potential danger his wife posed to the kid.  

 

While most won't...when it is the life or safety of a child at stake, do you want to take the 1% chance?   I personally won't ever take that chance.  CPS and the authorities won't take that chance.  I strongly caution anyone in this situation to be very careful about the situation and to act as if it is a real possibility while in the crisis.  It is better to be safe than sorry. 

 

Stefanie

[Maus]

 It takes a pretty serious illness to be hospitalized for a week.

At our local Psych hosptials, at least, a week is a minimum stay.  If you check in, you will be there for five business days.  (That's why at subsequent ER visits, DH chose to make a commitment to see his own therapist, rather than check in.)  I think that policy is there because it takes 48 hours for psych meds to really show up in your system.  Some of the other men in the ward when DH was there had been there for three or four weeks.