Public School Problems

[shannonann]

I am homeschooling one child and have one child attending public school. I realize that this isn't a public school forum, but I really need some input from others.

 

My son that attends public school was given a Biology test. The class average for the test was well below 50! All of the students that made below 50 were "given" enough points to bring their test grade up to a 50. All of the students who scored above 50 on the test received zero points.

 

To me, it seems totally unethical to give points to only the kids that did the worst. Have any of you heard of anything like this before? I would like to speak to the principal about it. Would you advise that I speak to the principal? How would you handle it?

 

Thank you for your time. I appreciate your input!

[Desert Strawberry]

This does sound unethical. Give everyone points, or give no one points. I personally don't care about grades, but if you do, speak with the teacher. This is not a good practice. 

[kentuckymom]

I recommend speaking to the teacher first, and if he/she is not receptive then go to the principal.

[Syllieann]

That happens all the time. It is unethical and unfair, but it's reality in a nclb era. Many people (the majority's?) think it's not the fault of the low achievers. For whatever reason (natural ability, socioeconomic issues, racial issues, the list never ends) they are considered to be at a disadvantage, which can be rectified by inflating the scores. I doubt you'll get anywhere by talking to the principal. It is a societal issue, but it never hurts to make your voice heard.

[Arcadia]

It depends on how the points are given. It isn't unheard of for kids with failing test scores to be given extra work to earn a few points.

 

Also how well below are we talking about. From an above 40 to a 50 by extra work or retest is rather common.

 

Are we taking high school biology or middle school life science since I can't see signatures. For middle school, kids get to fail locally because no one is held back. For high school, credit recovery in Summer is required for anything under C. So an adjustment from fail to a pass grade is not going to exempt a child from credit recovery.

 

Isn't 50 still an F? Pass starts at 60 and above?

[shannonann]

The extra points weren't "earned". They were "given."

 

It is my understanding that quite a few kids made 20s and 30s, so they were "given" 20 or 30 points.

 

My son made a 56. The highest grade was a 60 something. My son requested the opportunity to "earn" extra points, but was told, "no."

[73349]

Might this be a school-wide or teacher policy--that no one can ruin his/her average completely by scoring below 50, so anything below it counts as a 50?

 

If the highest grade was still under 70, the teacher will be taking that into account when planning the rest of the quarter, I'm sure. For example, the next test might be very easy, or homework will be weighted more heavily. Administrators will balk if there are a bunch of low grades on report cards (such as half the class getting Fs).

[athomeontheprairie]

In high school here, a teacher gave a test and NO ONE scored higher than a 60%. He gave back the tests, then told the kids to throw him out he wasn't recording them because clearly he did not explain it well enough since no one was able to understand.

After another week on the unit he retested the entire class. This time the motivated students were scoring in the 80s and 90s. There was no other option for the kids that scored dismally-they have an additional week to work with the teacher before school and during class to ensure understanding.

 

and to the OP, no it absolutely isn't fair, what a load of crock!

[againstthegrain]

Teachers do some idiot things since they have been presented with an unethical law like the NCLBA that completely equated their livelihood based on how students performed not their teaching itself.. but it would make more sense to give an equal curve... though I would just reteach the lesson.

Edited January 28, 2016 by againstthegrain

[HomeAgain]

50% as the bottom line for a class isn't exactly unethical.  You have two problems to differentiate between:

 

1. You are upset that 50% became the new 0%, and students given the point difference to make it so.

2. You are upset that your son scored higher than a 50%, therefore being ineligible to get that same point difference.

 

The first is not a problem.  The second is in relation only.  You want your son to get extra points when he still knows so little of the material? The problem is not the points.  The problem is either the test, or the study habits of the class.  Figure out which one of those you want your son to focus on to bring the attention up to the teacher or above.  As it is Biology, I'm assuming high school, and in high school mommies don't get to fight the good fight.  Mommies get to help the child figure out how to state a problem, state a resolution, and communicate, while telling the child "I'll be right behind you." and telling the teacher/principal, "I'm here as a spectator."

 

 

[MinivanMom]

Our district (one of the largest in the country) has been debating a policy to make 50% the lowest possible score on any exam or assignment (including those not completed). I'm not sure whether it was finally implemented or not, but they were debating it as a potential district wide policy.

 

The reasoning behind making 50% the floor for all assignments or exams is that giving zero's or very low F's is inherently unfair, because it can potentially make the student's grade unrecoverable. Once the student knows that their overall grade is unrecoverable then they will stop trying to learn anything or completing any assignments. If the ultimate goal of school is to encourage the student to learn, then you are undermining that goal by making it impossible for the child to pass the class. This is an idea that's gaining in popularity at the high school level.

 

If I were in your place, I would first check your student handbook and perhaps your district website to determine whether this is a district policy, a school-wide policy, or just the classroom policies of one teacher. If it's a district or school-wide policy then you are probably out of luck, though you could lobby to have the policy changed at some point in the future. If it is just this teacher then your son might be able to argue for the entire test being curved, but it sounds like he already tried without success.

 

I think the bigger concern (from your perspective) is the poor quality of instruction in your son's biology class (as evidenced by a class average below 50). I think that is the concern that is more likely to be heard by the teacher and/or the principal if you do decide to get involved (which I don't think is generally a good idea with high school students). You want them to know that you are most concerned about your son mastering biology. You don't want to come off as sour grapes over the boost being given to the other students. Ultimately that has nothing to do with your son.

[creekland]

Our district (one of the largest in the country) has been debating a policy to make 50% the lowest possible score on any exam or assignment (including those not completed). I'm not sure whether it was finally implemented or not, but they were debating it as a potential district wide policy.

 

The reasoning behind making 50% the floor for all assignments or exams is that giving zero's or very low F's is inherently unfair, because it can potentially make the student's grade unrecoverable. Once the student knows that their overall grade is unrecoverable then they will stop trying to learn anything or completing any assignments. If the ultimate goal of school is to encourage the student to learn, then you are undermining that goal by making it impossible for the child to pass the class. This is an idea that's gaining in popularity at the high school level.

 

If I were in your place, I would first check your student handbook and perhaps your district website to determine whether this is a district policy, a school-wide policy, or just the classroom policies of one teacher. If it's a district or school-wide policy then you are probably out of luck, though you could lobby to have the policy changed at some point in the future. If it is just this teacher then your son might be able to argue for the entire test being curved, but it sounds like he already tried without success.

 

I think the bigger concern (from your perspective) is the poor quality of instruction in your son's biology class (as evidenced by a class average below 50). I think that is the concern that is more likely to be heard by the teacher and/or the principal if you do decide to get involved (which I don't think is generally a good idea with high school students). You want them to know that you are most concerned about your son mastering biology. You don't want to come off as sour grapes over the boost being given to the other students. Ultimately that has nothing to do with your son.

 

This.  It has become a fad of sorts - a way of thinking - and has been implemented as policy in many schools including one in my district (not the one I work at, but same district).

 

As a new way of thinking/fad, there are plenty within the system who disagree with it, but teachers within that system have to abide by it regardless of what they want to do.

 

I wouldn't worry about the lower end kids.  I'd be concerned with making sure mine knew enough material to do well in the class.  A 56 would concern me regardless of how the other kids did.  What did he miss?  How can he fix it next time?

 

If it had happened in any class I taught, I'd be blaming myself most likely (it would depend upon student participation too) and reteaching.

[Tree Frog]

Might this be a school-wide or teacher policy--that no one can ruin his/her average completely by scoring below 50, so anything below it counts as a 50?

 

If the highest grade was still under 70, the teacher will be taking that into account when planning the rest of the quarter, I'm sure. For example, the next test might be very easy, or homework will be weighted more heavily. Administrators will balk if there are a bunch of low grades on report cards (such as half the class getting Fs).

 

I've seen this many times. Somehow, even with difficult subjects, my kids' grades will come up, even if they don't understand the material. I believe in general there's entirely too much focus on the grade and not enough on the knowledge gained. Once upon a time, grades were supposed to be a measure of how much a student had learned. I don't believe that's the case anymore.

 

OP, we've had the same kind of situations. I don't believe giving some students credit and not others is fair. I've handled it several different ways, depending on whether I felt my child knew the material.  If he had studied hard and felt he knew the stuff, I told him to talk to the teacher and ask to see the test. Here, the students have to ask to see them; they don't go over them in class. Sometimes, there was an error on the teacher's end, sometimes there was a computational error on my child's end. Either way, it gives my son the opportunity to make his case. I've also just waited because inevitably, as the end of the reporting period gets closer, my kids' grades go up. I don't believe this is a coincidence. If I felt my son didn't study, I have a discussion with him about the importance of understanding the material and studying. And sometimes I've just told the kids that they will still come out ahead because they learned the material and that things given, not earned, frequently hurts the other students. That's what I did with this last report card. DS is frustrated because the first ranked child admits to cheating, but still comes out ahead. One of my kid's teachers has a funky way of curving a test: he takes the points earned on the test, finds the square root of the points, puts a 0 on the end of the number, and adds 10 points. So if they scored a 49 on the test, the square root of 49 is 7, put a 0 on the end of 7 for 70, and add 10. That student's grade would be an 80. If a student scored 82, using rounding,the square root would be 9. Put a 0 on the end for 90 and add 10= 100. It doesn't make any sense to me because if a student scored lower on a test, she would receive more "free" points that someone scoring higher.

Teachers do some idiot things since they have been presented with an unethical law like the NCLBA that completely equated their livelihood based on how students performed not their teaching itself.. but it would make more sense to give an equal curve... though I would just reteach the lesson.

 

I don't think teachers have enough time to reteach. It's always on to the next thing because there's so much to cover for the test. If the student didn't understand, no big deal because it won't be covered again that year.

[Arcadia]

For biology class, I fell asleep during lectures and tutorials just because it was boring but ace all the lab sessions which was weekly. It is one of those subjects that measure effort more than abilities. My test score represent my attitude on test day and nothing about ability.

 

Whether "upgrading" all the below 50s scores is fair or not, I will see if my kid understand but didn't prep well or if the textbook is too dense for my child. One of mine find Campbell easy, the other started with Miller Levine. If needed, I will hone my kids note taking and test taking skills.

 

I agree that at high school, your child has to advocate for themselves. You would be seen as a helicopter parent otherwise.

[Reefgazer]

Our district has a policy that no child can get below a 50 on a test/assignment/project, as long as they take the test and produce *something*.  This isn't a teacher policy, a teacher can't change it, and complaining to the teacher won't do any good.  In our district, this means that if someone puts their name on a test and nothing else, they will get a 50.  But kids who passed get no additional points added to their grade.  Don't bother to fight it - it's part of a larger educational philosophy that will not let kids fail, no matter how little they work or how little they learn; your complaint isn't going to stop that tide.  It is very unethical, it does nothing to raise the bar on performance, and does not teach kids that they must work very hard and on their own for an excellent grade.  Just make sure your child does as well as they possibly can, learns the material, and doesn't get caught up in the trap of expecting free points for poor performance.  

I am homeschooling one child and have one child attending public school. I realize that this isn't a public school forum, but I really need some input from others.

 

My son that attends public school was given a Biology test. The class average for the test was well below 50! All of the students that made below 50 were "given" enough points to bring their test grade up to a 50. All of the students who scored above 50 on the test received zero points.

 

To me, it seems totally unethical to give points to only the kids that did the worst. Have any of you heard of anything like this before? I would like to speak to the principal about it. Would you advise that I speak to the principal? How would you handle it?

 

Thank you for your time. I appreciate your input!

 

Edited January 29, 2016 by reefgazer

[kiwik]

Our district has a policy that no child can get below a 50 on a test/assignment/project, as long as they take the test and produce *something*. This isn't a teacher policy, a teacher can't change it, and complaining to the teacher won't do any good. In our district, this means that if someone puts their name on a test and nothing else, they will get a 50. But kids who passed get no additional points added to their grade. Don't bother to fight it - it's part of a larger educational philosophy that will not let kids fail, no matter how little they work or how little they learn; your complaint isn't going to stop that tide. It is very unethical, it does nothing to raise the bar on performance, and does not teach kids that they must work very hard and on their own for an excellent grade. Just make sure your child does as well as they possibly can, learns the material, and doesn't get caught up in the trap of expecting free points for poor performance.

That seems to be seriously unfair to the kids who work really hard to just pass. Why would you bother if the guy who wrote his name and fell asleep ended up with the same grade?

[creekland]

OP, thinking more about this, I'd dig a little deeper.  

 

In our ideal world every class is the same with a knowledgeable teacher and reasonably willing students to where all have a decent chance at learning the material well.

 

In the real world, there are sometimes incompetent teachers - either with knowledge or classroom control (or both) - and there are sometimes classes that are extremely difficult, if not impossible, to control. Enough students in the class just don't want to be in school and don't care that they fail.  They enjoy the constant attention that acting up/disrupting classes gives them.  In some cases, their behavior can be drug enhanced.  It's very, very tough for teachers to get them out of class for more than a day or two at best.

 

When this last bit happens, I always feel sorry for the handful of kids stuck in there who want to learn as, short of self-teaching, they have no chance to pick up on much.  Many times the teacher is so involved in trying to control the class, they can't honestly get to all the material they need to on any given day.  At other times there are just too many distractions for a student to stay focused.  The overall peer attitude also is fierce (against learning).

 

At our school Bio tests are more or less the same across teachers.  They're set by agreement among the teachers.  IF (major IF) your student happens to be in a really poor class, chances are good a different class could easily have an 85 average.  If that were the case, I'd be really pushing to get my guy switched to a different class.  It needs to happen early in the semester and needs to come from the parent pushing as kids are often told, "no," but parents rule, so they have more power.

 

Note, that's just my district.  Yours might or might not be the same.

 

I always get my info from inside.  I know which teachers are more likely to be able to control classes and are generally good teachers (content-wise), etc.  It was easy for me to get my guy into decent classes.  When coming from the outside as you are, I'd be pressing my guy for knowledge of what's going on in his class and checking with others/peers to see what's happening in other classes.  Pending what I found out, I'd be on the phone with guidance ASAP to see what could be done and I'd be quite firm about not leaving him in that situation IF THAT IS WHAT'S HAPPENING.  You have to be careful that it's not your kid doing things or underperforming.  That can easily be the case too.  The biggest clue for you is what's happening in other classes both with this teacher and with any others teaching the subject.  Are the tests the same?  What were the other averages?  If they don't let him switch classes, then press for dropping that one and filling the time with something else.  It would truly be better to try again with a different teacher or class in a different semester.

 

Just two cents from a possible happening.

 

Regardless, I still wouldn't worry about 50 being the minimum grade and lower end kids getting points due to it.  You won't be able to change that if it's school policy.  You want your kid to be able to learn the material and have tests that show that knowledge.

[Mimm]

Our district has a policy that no child can get below a 50 on a test/assignment/project, as long as they take the test and produce *something*.  This isn't a teacher policy, a teacher can't change it, and complaining to the teacher won't do any good.  In our district, this means that if someone puts their name on a test and nothing else, they will get a 50.  But kids who passed get no additional points added to their grade.  Don't bother to fight it - it's part of a larger educational philosophy that will not let kids fail, no matter how little they work or how little they learn; your complaint isn't going to stop that tide.  It is very unethical, it does nothing to raise the bar on performance, and does not teach kids that they must work very hard and on their own for an excellent grade.  Just make sure your child does as well as they possibly can, learns the material, and doesn't get caught up in the trap of expecting free points for poor performance.  

 

I find this rather appalling!

 

And my own child would benefit from it, as she has decided that turning in assignment isn't high on her priority list. :p

[Farrar]

I'd be more upset about the teaching in a class where everyone failed the test than about the issue if extra points.

[shannonann]

Thank you all so much for your input!

 

I am most definitely concerned with the level of teaching.

 

I am a former public high school teacher. If I had given a test to my class and the average was terrible, I would have been embarrassed and assumed that I hadn't done my job. I would have tried to rectify the situation in way that was fair to all students. The idea of 'giving' points to only some of the students would never have occurred to me. This seems preposterous to me.

 

In my day teachers utilized "the curve" when entire classes performed poorly on tests. While this doesn't solve the problem of the material not being adequately taught or learned, it is at least fair to all students.

 

Until recently, I have been completely out of the public school system for 14 years. Obviously, things have changed, and not for the better.

[Reefgazer]

It is terribly unfair and the OP has a legitimate complaint.,  But I am just saying she will likely get no where by complaining and her energy would be better spent helping her child learn.  IOW, she shouldn't let low expectations and asinine policies drain her energy and academically cripple her child.

 

ETA:  I just read Creekland's response, and I agree with her that OP should investigate problems in the classroom.  Assuming the class does not have behavior problems, then I wouldn't spend any further energy on it, and I would instead teach and motivate my kid to learn on her own.

That seems to be seriously unfair to the kids who work really hard to just pass. Why would you bother if the guy who wrote his name and fell asleep ended up with the same grade?

 

Edited January 29, 2016 by reefgazer

[kiwik]

I sat a physics test at university where the average score was 22%.  The test was simply several times harder than the past tests we had been using to prep for it.  There were a few people who scored well but a lot of us panicked and lost the plot.  It was a first year paper so most of us just used it as a learning experience.

 

eta.  The point of that story was that the low scores weren't due to bad teaching or bad study habits just incorrect expectations.

Edited January 30, 2016 by kiwik

[brookspr]

My neighbor teaches high school Spanish at a school outside our area. They cannot give students less than a 50% on any assignment or test. He thinks it's ridiculous, but that is the school's policy and all of the teachers have to comply. 

[shannonann]

I have a follow up to my original question.

 

The first week that my son entered public school he came home and informed me that he would not be issued a textbook for any of his classes because there weren't enough textbooks available for all of the students. I thought that surely he had misunderstood. Especially since the school district had just built  brand new high school building and football stadium with an artificial turf field, no less. Surely the powers that be would not spend money on such extravagances and neglect to provide the students with textbooks. As it turns out, my son was exactly correct, no textbooks available for kids to take home to read or study.

 

Have any of you heard of a school district not supplying the students with textbooks?

[itsheresomewhere]

I have a follow up to my original question.

 

The first week that my son entered public school he came home and informed me that he would not be issued a textbook for any of his classes because there weren't enough textbooks available for all of the students. I thought that surely he had misunderstood. Especially since the school district had just built  brand new high school building and football stadium with an artificial turf field, no less. Surely the powers that be would not spend money on such extravagances and neglect to provide the students with textbooks. As it turns out, my son was exactly correct, no textbooks available for kids to take home to read or study.

 

Have any of you heard of a school district not supplying the students with textbooks?

This has been happening for years.  

[Reefgazer]

We must live in the same district.  Yes, our district does not issue textbooks to kids; everything is on Xeroxed worksheets.  Most parents who are savvy enough and can afford it find out what books form the basis of the class and buy their own online.  But finding out the book titles can be a job and a half; they really don't want some kids knowing that and having a leg up on others regarding performance.

I have a follow up to my original question.

 

The first week that my son entered public school he came home and informed me that he would not be issued a textbook for any of his classes because there weren't enough textbooks available for all of the students. I thought that surely he had misunderstood. Especially since the school district had just built  brand new high school building and football stadium with an artificial turf field, no less. Surely the powers that be would not spend money on such extravagances and neglect to provide the students with textbooks. As it turns out, my son was exactly correct, no textbooks available for kids to take home to read or study.

 

Have any of you heard of a school district not supplying the students with textbooks?

 

Edited February 25, 2016 by reefgazer

[Arcadia]

For my school district:

the brand new high school building would have come out of seismic retrofit funds,

new sports facilities each has a bond measure,

textbooks has a textbooks fund which covers a new set of curriculum every 5 years.

 

So many separate budget line items on the school district's financial report.

 

So far my district has more books than kids even with overcrowding. Just lots of portable classrooms.

[PeachyDoodle]

No textbooks here, either. There are classroom sets, but they are required to remain at school.

[AggieMama]

Kids here have to get special permission from the principal to take books home.

[OneStepAtATime]

The entire school district converted to electronic textbooks used on IPads a year or two ago.  No printed textbooks for even the teachers, as I understand it.  Printed textbooks appear to be going the way of the dodo bird.

[Janeway]

I am homeschooling one child and have one child attending public school. I realize that this isn't a public school forum, but I really need some input from others.

 

My son that attends public school was given a Biology test. The class average for the test was well below 50! All of the students that made below 50 were "given" enough points to bring their test grade up to a 50. All of the students who scored above 50 on the test received zero points.

 

To me, it seems totally unethical to give points to only the kids that did the worst. Have any of you heard of anything like this before? I would like to speak to the principal about it. Would you advise that I speak to the principal? How would you handle it?

 

Thank you for your time. I appreciate your input!

That would tick me off. I would complain for sure. I just don't know what direction I would take with it.

[Cara4497]

I have a follow up to my original question.

 

The first week that my son entered public school he came home and informed me that he would not be issued a textbook for any of his classes because there weren't enough textbooks available for all of the students. I thought that surely he had misunderstood. Especially since the school district had just built  brand new high school building and football stadium with an artificial turf field, no less. Surely the powers that be would not spend money on such extravagances and neglect to provide the students with textbooks. As it turns out, my son was exactly correct, no textbooks available for kids to take home to read or study.

 

Have any of you heard of a school district not supplying the students with textbooks?

 

I have a friend who teaches high school social studies. Not only do the students not get books, she as the teacher has only one book which was written in the 1990s. She also has to come up with all her own lessons, that meet standards, because there is no curriculum. 

[Tree Frog]

Online textbooks for most of the classes here, but students can request a take home textbook if one is available. DS's Latin class doesn't have an online book or enough for a class set, so the teacher spends a lot of time making copies. 

[Tsuga]

The reason our district doesn't buy books is that online curricula are much cheaper to update. They have math workbooks and reading, but for science they mainly bring home worksheets and look things up on the school district's online resources. They have access to a lot but it's all online.

 

This saves the school millions and means that the curriculum is always up to date.

 

I wish colleges could do it. The textbook racket drives me insane.

 

The students have books at school but they rotate. This way they can afford much higher quality books. Otherwise they'd just pay to have kids take them home, 10% will read it, another 5% will spill milk on it, and then you buy a whole new set in 5 years, woe to the class that is at the end of the five year cycle.