Statistics and Stories about Blue Collar Homeschoolers

[kalusignan]

Hmmmm. DH just retired from the Army, which I would consider blue collar. Lots of dirt and deployments, etc. Now he's working as a civilian doing the EXACT job he did in the Army, and that job is considered extremely white-collar. We homeschooled in both situations.

 

And, we're both university educated, which was the case before the Army even entered the picture. So, ????.

[Hunter]

Okay, out of curiosity, I'm going to blow this thread out of the water and start a new narrower one later. Who self-identifies as "working-class"? If you don't, do you identify with another class? Or no class at all?

 

I'd like to get into stigma of being working-class, and the expectations of upward mobility and some other stuff, but...I'm not so sure that won't explode so badly, that I won't get the above answers.

 

If you had to label your family's current class, what would it be?

 

Use whatever label you want. Just make it define class. Unless you see yourself or your country as classless.

 

This isn't about what I think, or any one else thinks. How do YOU self-identify the class of your homeschooling family?

Edited December 26, 2015 by Hunter

[Slache]

American.

 

Middle/lower class.

[Mommy to monkeys]

Okay, out of curiosity, I'm going to blow this thread out of the water and start a new narrower one later. Who self-identifies as "working-class"? If you don't, do you identify with another class? Or no class at all?

 

I'd like to get into stigma of being working-class, and the expectations of upward mobility and some other stuff, but...I'm not so sure that won't explode so badly, that I won't get the above answers.

 

If you had to label your family's current class, what would it be?

 

Use whatever label you want. Just make it define class. Unless you see yourself or your country as classless.

 

This isn't about what I think, or any one else thinks. How do YOU self-identify the class of your homeschooling family?

 

 

DH was in the military for years (enlisted) and I always considered that to be middle class. I was raised middle-upper middle class.

 

And here I am now. We're below the poverty line, so I guess that would be lower class. DH is a craftsman, so that seems to be equal parts blue collar and starving artist.

 

I feel that I've been able to homeschool well this far, because my parents will help with materials when I ask. Knowing that I can afford virtually nothing on my own and knowing that affording college for my kids is totally out of reach is, well, it changes my perspective. I'm preparing my kids for community college. That's our reality. And I'm always hesitant to put that out there because of the "if you can't afford to homeschool, then put them in public school comments." Not helpful even though I know people's intentions are almost always good.

[Cake and Pi]

DH is a chemical engineer, so I assume that counts as white collar?  But he spends a huge amount of time in the field, wearing an overpack suit or a flame retardant suit, depending on if he's at a radioactive site or a regular industrial plant.  He, by the way, is a 1st generation college graduate and grew up in extreme poverty.  His family was homeless for a portion of his childhood, and the for the rest they relied on government assistance for everything.  And yes, there was domestic violence and substance abuse, lots of it.  DH got a full ride scholarship and didn't even have to pay for his groceries in college.

 

I also came from a poorer family (also domestic violence, no substance abuse).  My step father was sent to prison when I was 8yo and my mom raised me and my oldest younger brother alone on a very low income working extremely long hours.  Actually, I mostly raised my younger brother because my mom didn't usually get home from work until 8-9pm.  We grew up without a family car, TV, or phone.  My brother went to trade school, I worked my way through college (plus some loans) and got a B.A. in geological engineering.

 

DH and I were both public schooled, but we've decided to HS our boys.  We are solidly middle-class now, but I'm sure both our present and past socioeconomic statuses influence how we HS, what materials we use, and what our goals are.  DH is very education oriented and expects all of our boys to go to college.  I think he'd throw a fit if any of them tried to opt out!

[Arcadia]

Foreigner, working class for my home country (high COL country)

 

Middle class for California but feels like working class in Silicon Valley

 

Paternal grandpa was freelance self employed until grandpa had enough money to start a small business in metalworks

 

Maternal grandpa was freelance self employed while grandma was a landlady. So she stays home, plays mahjong with her tenants and collects rent.

 

Most of my cousins are small business owners and consider themselves working class regardless of income. Those cousins who work for corporations also consider themselves working class.

 

My aunts would consider themselves too old to work but not retired class :lol: They are still mentally sharp enough to help in bookkeeping.

 

ETA:

My cousins, hubby's cousins, hubby and I are 1st gen. college graduates. There was only two universities in the whole country when my parents were college aged. My dad has a diploma in education, my mom has a diploma in nursing.

 

My grandparents generation were educated at home. My grandparents afterschool my parents generation.

 

Homeschooling is only legal recently in my home country. So we were all sent to government aided catholic schools.

Edited December 26, 2015 by Arcadia

[idnib]

Hmmm. We are white collar here but one of my most important mentors is a blue collar mom without a college education who homeschooled her special needs child (and put him through an excellent liberal arts college), all while on disability. She was a member of a group of parents who were homeschooling special needs kids and they were all doing something different than each other. They only met in person or talked on the phone (nascent Internet days) and were of great support to each other. She moved last year and was giving away some old materials and they were simple workbooks but she made it work!

 

 

[4KookieKids]

I have had conversations with both non-homeschoolers and homeschoolers alike, which follows the line "well, of course you and DH should homeschool, you both have PhDs and know how to teach." The implication, of course, being that people who do **not** have a high level of educational attainment, should not be homeschooling. 

 

 

I can understand the desire to have a safe place to discuss issues which arise from encountering sentiments like those I mentioned above. 

 

I totally get this too. I feel like people are *either* critical od us for having me stay home to homeschool (bc I have far more education and earning power than dh) OR the "approve" because I'm so educated and "can actually teach".

[The Girls' Mom]

Although his job has evolved into a more "white collar" job over the years, we come from very blue collar families, and started off as extremely low income, with no financial support from our parents.  My dh started our marriage as a diesel mechanic, and has worked his way up over 20+ years in the same company.  No one in either of our families have attended college.  I am the first.  He went to a vocational school.  Actually my dd and I will both graduate from college at the same time, and be the first graduates on either side of our families. :)  

My oldest dd is attending CC, the same one I'm attending.  She wants to get a library science degree.  One of my other girls is planning on entering a STEM field, in biological sciences.  My other dd is contemplating going into robotic engineering or video production.  

Education has been highly valued in our nuclear family.  It is also highly valued by my father, and by dh's father.  Neither had a college ed, but both are extremely intelligent, life-long learners, and heavy readers.  This rubbed off on dh and I quite a lot.  

 

 

 

 

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

Both DH and I come from blue collar families and were home schooled ourselves. My dad attended college but was kicked out for drug use and partying before earning his degree. He never went back but now works a white collar job that is supposed to require a degree. My mom didn't attend college. My FIL was a factory worker who eventually went to seminary and became a pastor. My MIL met him in college but I don't think she finished. In both of our families, college was considered an option but not a requirement. Getting a job right out of HS, attending trade school, or starting a business where all considered equally valid options. Some, but not all, of our siblings went or are currently attending college but our parents don't finance it. My brothers are paying their own way and/or relying on scholarships.

 

I think DH would be considered blue collar too - he's a police officer. Neither of us have a college degree although we both talk about getting one at some point. DH earns enough for us to live on and I teach piano lessons to supplement a bit. (I only charge half what I could to make lessons affordable for other blue collar families who otherwise wouldn't be able to afford them.) We live simply and don't do a lot of "extras". We are very careful to avoid debt as that could make our comfortable lifestyle stressful very quickly. Our only debt is our small mortgage.

 

I sometimes wish that we had the ability to try lots of different extra curriculars, online classes and fun/rigorous/expensive curriculums like many here seem to be able too. But then I remind myself that while all of the extras may be helpful, they aren't required for a great education.

 

Our goal is to have our children prepared for college but like the families we grew up in, college is merely one of several options available to them. It is also unlikely that we will be paying for it if our children decide to go. Unless our financial situation changes significantly paying for college simply won't be an option.

[Soror]

Definitely blue collar here(I don't personally know any local hs'ers that are not blue collar- the more affluent typically send their kids to private school). I'm the first to graduate college in my family, my maternal Grandma was a cotton picker, my dad's side of the family was even worse off with both parents dying young and the oldest son finishing the child rearing. Dh's family was better off- men had good trade jobs and solid benefits with unions, college education wasn't unheard of among his aunts, uncles and cousins(although neither of dh's parents went to college), my husband himself never got a degree. Dh is bright and has taught himself many things and does mechanical and electrical engineering work- learning how to put together and take apart cars as a kid as well as how to plumb and wire a house was a great foundation, he has since taught himself robotics programming and now teaches classes at work and is able to hold his own even among the upper level engineers just fine . He took some classes but had little patience for it. He could get a job as an engineer tech and then have them pay for college and be an official engineer but he actually makes more in his current position so he sees little point in it . Our income is decent for the area, which is low COL, and we own our home and have no debt so we are a lot better off than most in our situation

 

Being on here has certainly opened my eyes, I think it is a bit like white privilege, growing up with more money or education is not something you think about but it changes your opportunities and perspective. I often think about how is it that I can give my kids those advantages without the background or resources of others. It pains me to think about what I can't provide them.  I do my best to discern the most important things(not always succeeding. Growing up I was taught a lot about hard-work and doing on your own without help. I really don't believe that anymore. Well, yes, of course I believe in hard work but I've come to see the ways in which I've been helped here and there- which is certainly much more prevalent in upper classes(and less in lower classes) and I plan to help my own kids however I can. I think this idea from the working class that you have to do it on your own to succeed only serves to harm rather than help. 

 

I quite enjoy reading your honest and open posts Hunter. It gives me perspective and insight at times to my own thought patterns, although we are miles better off than many I can empathize. No, it is not the same for me to educate my child as it will be for them. I grew up in a house with hardly any books at all, no bookshelves, they are growing up surrounded by books. I'm building a foundation that I hope that they will carry on, however I also have to acknowledge that my own parents had to do the work to get out of poverty and I have the luxury of starting in a better place because of them.

 

 

Edited December 26, 2015 by soror

[Hunter]

Thank you so much everyone. It is fascinating to me right now to see how people self-identify.

 

I can be a bit of a narcissist, thinking what I think about other people and general topics. I am really enjoying sitting back and listening to others self-identify.

 

Thank you!

[Jean in Newcastle]

I will say that as a family with big financial constraints, I've found the curriculum advice  given at times to smack me in the face with how expensive they are.  I've found this too with the advice to "just get an evaluation" or outsource high school classes.  I don't think those things are bad, just not options for me without some big financial consequences.  (I have made that choice at times but it was agonized over!)   I've had to come to terms with my choices and my constraints without jealousy or envy or feeling down about it.  And in hindsight I've been able to see that some of our cheaper choices have had some nice benefits that I wouldn't have expected - mainly that they've still done the job and it really is the time spent learning together which has been more important. 

[SarahW]

Interesting thread, Hunter.

 

Hm, I grew up being homeschooled by blue-collar parents from solid blue-collar families. Mother from Irish factory workers, father from WV coal miners. They both did poorly in school and met in CC while they were getting low-level technical degrees. 

 

I talked to my older (maternal) aunt a bit this summer about education, and she surprised me by saying that she had never studied algebra, apparently not even linear algebra, to get her high school diploma. Back in her day, the "regular" folks just did basic "consumer" type math and then after graduating high school got a union job and, if you were careful with things, the wages and benefits could get you a mortgage and enough leftover to raise a few kids and then retire comfortably. It's not glamorous, but it's a good life, so okay. She knows that things are different now, but I don't think she really understands that. She makes a big deal of a division between "street smarts" and "head smarts" and is convinced that people who get the "head smarts" are dumb on practical things. It's a rather benign form of anti-intellectualism, but it does color what she values and encourages in others. 

 

As for my mother, I believe part of her school problems had to do with an unidentified language-based LD, likely compounded by lead-influenced low-IQ. I realize all that now. Growing up, I found her mentally confusing. She would talk about working hard and being smart for the glory of God, and etc. But then go on rants about how schools were "so dumb" and how they "don't teach nothin" and etc. She mostly homeschooled us from the Bible and bits of pieces of A Beka and Bob Jones she got from a friend who worked at a local Christian school. Any money was for a few years wasted spent on Gothard books, or, later, irrelevant books from AiG. We also got the occasional vintage or public school textbook castoffs. With the resources, plus the public library, there could have been a good solid "at least contemporary public school standard" education. But there wasn't. When I got stuck on the grammar lessons in BJU English 4 my mother couldn't help, so grammar was just dropped. There was not time spent on trying something else, or doing another method, or changing the approach. I just never had another LA book again. We spent a lot of time on learning "character." She thought that since my brother and I read a lot, we would be fine. But since I was mostly just reading Sweet Valley Twins, I wasn't (my brother used his free time a bit more productively). I read Sweet Valley Twins because I was bored and my library had new ones all the time, so getting one was easy. I also read some classic children's lit I came across, didn't know they were lit, and really liked them. But I didn't know how to go about finding more of those, and my mother seemed to be as oblivious as I was. Hunter, I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "homeschooling in the 90's" because when I hear you say that, I think of my experience above. 

 

As for future career talk. for me it was quite mixed. I initially thought of being a nurse, which made my mother happy. But as it turned out, I faint at the sight of blood, so that was dropped. My mother had been an electrician for a few years, but I was "bad" at math (a result of having been expected to self-teach from BJU math textbooks, mostly) and didn't much care for science. I liked to read stories, and my parents thought that was completely impractical. My mother told me that goal should be "to marry rich." It was clear that I was itching for an academic life, which my parents were not in favor of. My mother often would quote the political mailings she would get about "stupid liberals in their ivory towers" and did not like that I seemed to like the idea of living in an ivory tower. There was no real direction or training for anything else in particular though, the idea of developing a child's interest was foreign to them, I agree totally with Unequal Childhoods on this point. They helped me get a job at McDonld's in my teens (which wasn't all bad, but did work against my own academic goals) and considered it done. In any case, my parent;s understanding of college was low, and they didn't understand that the sticker price could be gamed. They only saw that college was "for other people" so there was no point in making it a goal.

 

There's a lot more detail I could go into, but I don't want to bore everyone with my life story. Suffice to say, I find it interesting that the social group was mentioned to you, Hunter. I do find these forums wealthier, and more educated, than what I grew up knowing. I do gasp when I see posters mention dropping more on a few-week online class than I could possibly spend in a whole year.

 

I am also struck by the difference between even TWTM and the curriculum I was taught. My brother and his wife are considering homeschooling, and when we were together at a used bookstore I saw a copy of the Rev. Ed. and shoved it into his hands "here, here's a guide to homeschooling where you actually teach stuff." Yes, yes that's pretty much what I said.

 

Also, my husband and I both have Master's degrees (though we are still poor, poorer than my parents actually, even in real dollars) and am struck by how differently we approach homeschooling. We are blessed with a child who loves math and wants to be a scientist. I struck out with BJU math and was taught almost no science, my DH has dyscalculia and was shunted to the "special" school for remediation. We try and try and try to teach him the best math and science we can, even when we don't understand it (yes, he's still in 3rd grade, Beast Academy taught us things nonetheless). We also harness all our education to develop all his intellectual skills. We also try to teach all the little interpersonal skills that middle and upper class families take for granted (I'll admit it, I read Unequal Childhoods to also teach myself how to be a middle class parent). My family doesn't understand it. At least math and science are "real" things to them, so I don't mention conceptual math or the dinner-time discussions weighing the merits of Newtonian physics. I certainly never mention Latin, that would garner a quick "what good will that ever do him!?? Shouldn't you be teaching him something, you know, worthwhile?" response. 

 

I think having a trade is a good thing. I think everyone should have time to at least train for a suitable trade. Not everyone is cut out for a trade, though. I was good at my job at McDonald's, I got promoted. If I had stayed longer, and if I had cared, I could have been promoted more. But I didn't care, it wasn't the job for me. Though I am glad I can easily fall back on a service job if I need to. Crazypants needs to go to college if he wants to be a scientist (or his second choice, teacher) so I am taking seriously the task of getting him ready for that. I do want him to have a trade to fall back on, which these days may be something as "white collar" as doing for-hire web design.

 

I'm interested in seeing how this discussion goes. But I think I wrote enough for now. 

Edited January 24, 2016 by SarahW

[SparklyUnicorn]

Are you wondering about paths for people who are not college bound?  This is the only way I can make sense of this thread.  I think the term "blue collar" is kind of outdated. 

[texasmama]

I totally get this too. I feel like people are *either* critical od us for having me stay home to homeschool (bc I have far more education and earning power than dh) OR the "approve" because I'm so educated and "can actually teach".

Yes.  Very few people give me flak about homeschooling because I have a graduate degree and experience teaching college courses at the graduate and undergraduate levels.  I consider myself fortunate.  The skills and knowledge needed for homeschooling are (mostly) very different from those needed to teach college students.  But I seem to have instant credibility that people without my level of education and experience do not have.

[Alessandra]

Hunter

 

I haven't read all the posts, but am linking a recent article from NY Times that was posted here recently. I found lots of interesting material on the subject while searching with keywords like NY Times, rich poor, schooling, activities.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/18/upshot/rich-children-and-poor-ones-are-raised-very-differently.html?_r=0

 

It is not exactly what you asked, but touches on the subject.

Edited December 26, 2015 by Alessandra

[texasmama]

Class is a weird topic to me.  It can change in a short period of time with a job loss, for instance.  Is it education-based and income-based?  One or the other?

 

We are solidly middle class defined by education and income.  Our income has varied quite a lot through the past 15 years, while our education levels have not.  Our education levels allow us opportunities in the workforce that others may not have.  I am in a low paying field but am very employable.  Several years ago, I went from unemployed for seven years to full-time employed in less than a month.  My husband is a small business owner, but he is still in a management position rather than a working position regarding the actual labor being performed.  Occasionally, he will opt to perform a portion of the labor himself or do a small job because it allows him to pocket the profit, but this is rare.  He typically hires blue collar workers to perform the labor, most of which does not require any real skill.

 

Both of my parents were white collar, college-educated people.  Neither of dh's parents were college-educated, but his father was a white-collar employee in a time when college degrees were not required for all white-collar work.  

 

Dh's one set of grandparents that he knew were an odd mixture of grandfather, who was educated only through the 3rd grade and was very blue collar and grandmother, who obtained a masters degree and worked white collar jobs after doing this.  My paternal grandfather was a high school educated, blue collar, lower class worker.  My paternal grandmother had most of her college degree when she got pregnant, dropped out, and got married.  My father was the only sibling who obtained a college degree, and he received no support from his parents to do so.  My maternal grandfather was educated through the 8th grade, dropping out to help support his family after his father left them.  He was successful in climbing the ladder of a company and did well financially, working his way from blue collar to white collar.  He and my paternal grandfather worked at the same, large company, but my paternal grandfather remained a blue collar worker by choice.  My maternal grandmother obtained a masters degree and was a white collar worker after this.  

 

I have always found it interesting that dh's and my grandmothers had husbands who were educated at a 3rd and 8th grade level but went on to get masters degrees themselves at a time when this was not done nearly as much.  

Edited December 26, 2015 by texasmama

[Guest]

People feel weird about all of these things, money and class (which are not the same thing), where they came from, where they want their kids to go, how they see as their roles as a mother and teacher and facilitator, what they see as their place in society.

 

So it's really difficult ime, to tease it all apart long enough to say anything about how they all go together.

 

I was trying to talk to someone irl recently about something Hunter has introduced me to--which is that communities that are separate from the mainstream, even if they are more onerous to belong to, can be grounding in ways that instill and build up confidence in a person who belongs there...where that same person, while perfectly competent and intelligent and can BLEND IN with the mainstream if they choose to, will *lose* confidence by separating herself from her home group. Or just not spending as much time around people with the same values, mannerisms and thought patterns of the home group.

 

Well, what do you think happened?

 

The person I was speaking with said, "well first we need to define mainstream....no first we need to define what we're talking about when we say 'community'....no first we need to figure out what part confidence even plays in a person's life, is it actually important? Aren't we all just raising a bunch of narcissists by paying attention to their self esteem?......." {she did not allow for any answer other than 'yes' for that last query}

 

...and as we went on, she decided (she told me this) that I was trying to provide myself a cop-out for not automatically and emphatically advocating for the standard (in HER home-group) educational path that starts in preschool and ends in a master's degree, at a minimum. She told me her rags to riches story (I knew it already--we are related) and insisted if SHE can do it, anyone can do it....so, "to be frank here, I have to seriously question your ability to homeschool your kids, if you think they shouldn't go to college."

 

[i definitely NEVER said I don't want someone to go to college. I didn't say anything about my kids at all.]

 

Meanwhile I concluded that she could not, at least in that moment and with me, disentangle her attachment to her choices in life from her ability to hear out people who make completely different choices, with a full understanding of what they entail. She just couldn't do it. WHY ON EARTH would anyone choose to continue to find solace (even though most ppl do this subconsciously) in their home-group, when their home-group is lower in any way.

 

I don't think that is uncommon.

 

I realize I'm not actually adding anything pertinent to this conversation lol. I'm just saying, I get why it's hard to talk about.

 

I have often found myself defending myself for continuing to relate to and find solace from the bigoted "home folks"  I grew up with. This is, of course, partly a function of me being a little too revealing and honest....but the point is those people, grievously wrong though they are (truly) about some things....they buoy me. Without at least small doses of them, I feel less myself and more adrift... unmoored. These are the people that taught me not just how to work (something upper classes and people from better--kinder-- places often are willing to praise these kind of people for), but also how to love, how to behave in public and private, how to think. And these are the people that welcome me back with open arms, any time, for any reason, no matter how close to the sun I fly.

 

It makes complete and perfect sense to me why many people (mostly not people hanging out on any kid of internet forum, especially not one nominally at least about classical education in the home) choose, consciously or otherwise, not to pursue paths that will take them away from the moors of their own home-folks. It is not what I have chosen for myself and I am practically flinging my kids away from it as far and as fast as I can...all for very good reasons....but I can see it.

 

This is a *thing* to me, because in younger days I was very obnoxiously derisive toward the people with no gumption. I was wrong. It's not NO gumption to stay in your hometown and emulate your parents and your grandparents when they have had rough lives.....it's a different kind of gumption, brought to bear by different (not worse!!) values.

 

 

 

[Hunter]

Are you wondering about paths for people who are not college bound? This is the only way I can make sense of this thread. I think the term "blue collar" is kind of outdated.

I needed a thread title. I was brainstorming. I had to put SOMETHING in the title that would draw the right people here and at least START conversation.

 

The world is in flux. I don't think the English language has yet supplied us with the vocabulary we need to discuss this flux.

 

Corporations have problem solving meetings, where they beg everyone to contribute, even if they think what they say might not be relevant.

 

I'm a mess. I started a messy thread about a messy topic. Yes, we see mess here. We are all in agreement that I started mess. :lol:

 

At some point, I am interested in discussing alternative post-secondary plans other than what has become the default but unnatainable goal for some families. Not in this thread and maybe not here.

 

I'm seeing a growing body of people saying, "Uh oh, I read all the new books, I got excited and tried, and now..I'm SO SO SO scared I don't think this is going to happen, and I don't know what to do now. And worse yet, I'm afraid to let anyone know, because they shame me when I do."

 

No matter how low-income someone is, they might not be thinking, "Uh oh!!!!" That is why this isn't a thread titled low income.

 

Yes, at some point, I do want to narrow down to, "uh oh!!!!" with some people that are experiencing that and ready to talk about it.

 

But I fear giving up the brainstorming messy wide problem solving session too soon. I don't want to miss something. Regentrude's post was huge for me.

 

If someone is at "Uh oh!!!!" And wants a safe place to talk about "Uh oh!!!" there is someone reading this thread that wants to talk with others like herself. Self-identifying as working-class or uh oh is likely to catch her attention.

 

But as for ME and THIS thread. I am doing what *I* do best. I get people talking. As Ellie said, "It's Hunter". :lol:

 

I am not moderator material. I am a mess. I hang out at forums others start and contribute mess that starts conversation. That is one of my roles in life. I shake things up. I talk about new and different things. Most forums I get kicked off of. It still amazes me I have racked up so many posts here without getting kicked off!!!

 

So again in summary. I am having a messy brainstorming session. But, yes, someone else is now watching this thread hoping to find some safe people to chat with about uh oh. Because as fascinating as I am, I wasn't enough for her. :lol:

 

I am becoming as outdated as the term blue-collar. My stories get older every year. I don't even know how to title a thread anymore, as has been pointed out to me repeatedly, here. :lol: But I'm still good for something. And as long as I can, I'll keep doing what I'm good at. You all are reading and posting, aren't you?

[Hunter]

Hunter

 

I haven't read all the posts, but am linking a recent article from NY Times that was posted here recently. I found lots of interesting material on the subject while searching with keywords like NY Times, rich poor, schooling, activities.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/18/upshot/rich-children-and-poor-ones-are-raised-very-differently.html?_r=0

 

It is not exactly what you asked, but touches on the subject.

Thank you! This is why I am starting wide. Thank you!

[Hunter]

Okbud!!!! I didn't quote because it is so long, and I can't trim a quote on my phone, but what you are saying is a topic I want to explore with people in the future! Working-class cultures are not just less-than and maybe not less-than at all. That is a topic for a thread of its own or even multiple threads.

 

Again, this is why I want to stay wide. This IS relevant stuff that only gets brought up for discussion in a wide brainstorming session, where people are encouraged to fling stuff out there.

 

Thank you!

 

Please people, the odd and the stuff we have been convinced is irrelevant is the stuff I am looking for. This is NOT a thread about the same old same old.

[Hwin]

My dad was a groundskeeper and my mom is a nurse. My husband worked retail for years and, while I have a BA and MA, work part time in an office.

 

My dad has memorized numerous Frost and Kipling poems, Kennedy speeches, knows Latin, etc. My mom had won a full scholarship to Fordham but dropped out when her Dad became ill, so she could work and support the family. 

 

I think it's harder to define blue collar because, around here, people who work in offices don't make more than people who work in manufacturing and trades. 

 

I have been in many college classes where the professor started talking about blue collar and working class, and they totally described my family (as far as income, education level, etc) and then started going down a path that would cause me to say "apparently I'm from a working class family, but the stuff you just started to say - it doesn't apply at all." 

 

And then they would tell me my situation was unusual. But I'm not sure it was. So these discussions are hard for me. Apparently I was privileged blue collar because my parents read books to us.

 

 

[La Condessa]

Okay, out of curiosity, I'm going to blow this thread out of the water and start a new narrower one later. Who self-identifies as "working-class"? If you don't, do you identify with another class? Or no class at all?

 

I'd like to get into stigma of being working-class, and the expectations of upward mobility and some other stuff, but...I'm not so sure that won't explode so badly, that I won't get the above answers.

 

If you had to label your family's current class, what would it be?

 

Use whatever label you want. Just make it define class. Unless you see yourself or your country as classless.

 

This isn't about what I think, or any one else thinks. How do YOU self-identify the class of your homeschooling family?

Do most people mentally define themselves by class?

 

It hadn't ever occurred to me to do so, and now that you ask, I'm having trouble doing so. When you first used the term "genteel poverty" I thought maybe you meant something like us, but your anecdote describing it showed me I was wrong.

 

We are from families where university education is expected, and dh has a j.d. In an area where many people are painfully, abjectly poor and quite a number are extremely wealthy, we are in the rare position in the middle (though people sometimes expect us to be on the wealthy side because of dh's work). In this area, "the middle" means that we are living and homeschooling our four kids on one income while I am a SAHM and we are very slowly but surely making progress on digging out our student loan and medical debts. We don't qualify for any government assistance programs, I cook everything from scratch and mend clothes, etc, to live within our means, and our family of six lives in a rented 900 sq. ft. manufactured home. We are doing well in my estimation, though our current standard of living would be considered poverty in either of the middle-to upper-middle class areas where dh and I grew up (and either vastly better or worse than almost everyone I know here).

 

So, what "class" are we? I guess middle class if you have to put a name to it, but it's an awkward fit.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Hunter, as far as future goes, we are at that spot with ds18.  He is not following the "normal" trajectory of our peer group.  He's in his second year of his senior year of high school.  We still don't know what after that.  He's working half time and I see that as equally important for him as the academic stuff.  He and I were really stressing about this stuff last year and the year before until I just decided "no".  I am parenting and launching the child I have.  We will do it the way it is best for him and our family.  I have had some solace lately because we've had dinner with two different people with two very different trajectories in life who are wonderful people, successful in life even if they are not the picture of "success", who went about things in a different way than the norm.  I think this has helped ds to realize that I have not failed him and he has not failed himself. 

 

There was a period of time in which I had to avoid the high school/college subforums here because almost everyone was following the normal trajectory and it made me feel bad.  Not their fault, btw.   But I just needed to figure things out for us before I had the confidence to look at stuff different than our messy trajectory and still glean what I can from it. 

[aggieamy]

If this is in respect to people in different backgrounds being open to choosing different career paths for their children then I can chime in.  

 

DH and I are both self-employed engineers.  White collar.  Probably upper middle-class. (Using the upper middle-class definition of: professional job, high autonomy for work, and income)

 

DH's father taught high school math and his mother was a SAHM.  I'm assuming that would fall into white collar and middle class.  They never had much money but did okay.

 

My mother is an engineer and is currently is a corporate executive for a manufacturing company.  (She has been known to wear a hard hat at work though!)  My father is retired now but was a self-employed computer programmer.  White collar.  Upper middle-class.

 

DD is old enough that we know she is college bound - she has the aptitude and interest for it.  DS is still just a baby.  If he doesn't have both the aptitude and interest for college then we will try to find a field for him that makes good money, isn't physically demanding (ie sheet metal worker ... we don't want him disabled at the age of 45), and is in demand.  There are lots of jobs out there like that.  We don't want to spend $50k for him to go to college to get a degree that won't support him and won't be a good fit.  

 

In our area crane operators, welders, railway engineers, electricians, and plumbers all are making great incomes and don't have the need for a college degree.

Edited December 26, 2015 by aggieamy

[Renai]

I've been reading with interest. As to the second question as to how I'm classed, I really don't know. I know where I come from and know I'm not there now. Currently, dh is a construction worker (blue-collar?) and I started back working as a teacher this year. This is a bad time for construction, but since I have steady income we do okay. We pay the lowest rent available in town that hasn't been raised in the 10 years we've lived here. We still qualify as low-income though.

 

I came from middle class background, I think - dad was in the army and mom was a teacher. I'm the oldest of three. Both parents had bachelor degrees. It took a while, but I just finished a graduate degree. (for what purpose??? accomplishment, maybe?) Dh came to the US as an immigrant. Should I dare say - an illegal one. He has an elementary education, as does his mom. Of his five siblings, I'm not sure of education levels, but I gather all of them attained a higher education level than he did (he's second to the youngest). 

 

Although I was more employable (usually) than he, most of the time I was a wahm and homeschooled my oldest while he worked. Then the crash came in 2008 and we never fully recovered. We continued to homeschool though, and I continued to work quite a bit from home - from phone customer service to tutoring (online and face-to-face) to selling Avon.

 

I don’t know where I’m going with this, but there were a couple of interesting posts above. Someone mentioned class interpersonal skills. I’ve never read (or even heard of until today) the book Unequal Childhoods, but I studied something similar a while back on my own. What I studied dealt with class, types of poverty, and the communication systems within classes. These communication systems can encourage or discourage movement between classes. A poster (maybe the same one) mentioned that as well.  Maybe that has something to do with what okbud mentioned as far as being comfortable with your home-group. Also, knowing the class language can be beneficial to upward movement.

 

I’m rambling again. We’ve managed with homeschooling. Our best years were the ones we put together according to interest (early years), but got more difficult as time passed. I’ve bought partial programs, and utilized the library a lot. My oldest is in 10^th grade, and I’m considering an off-the-beaten path with her, going back to our homeschooling roots. She has learning challenges, but she can be motivated. We plan on cc while in high school, which I’ve just learned will be free for her. I’d like her to graduate with an associate’s when she graduates from hs, but she just informed me the AA path she was planning on will not work for her. We can’t pay her college, and she currently doesn’t have a goal. I’d like her to have a trade, and worry how things will come together for her. This may sound classist, but I try to help her with a better future mindset than what her stepdad can provide for her. I hear a lot of generational poverty talk, and I don’t stand for it. I’m always battling that mindset in my home.

 

Anyway, I think I’ve forgotten what else I wanted to say.

[SparklyUnicorn]

 

 

In our area crane operators, welders, railway engineers, electricians, and plumbers all are making great incomes and don't have the need for a college degree.

 

No, but they all require some sort of education after high school.  Usually it's much shorter than getting an academic degree, but still it's education that will take time and cost money.

 

With blue collar, it was a lot about being trained on the job.  Stuff like factory work.  My dad was a screw machine set up/operator trained on the job.  He made enough to support a family of four.  That job does not exist anymore.  If there is any manufacturing left at all it is all about computerized machines requiring training (often not on the job training). 

 

I can't think of too many jobs that pay any sort of amount one can scrape by on that don't require some sort of training outside of high school.  So I'm saying I would not pigeon hole my kid into a zero skill/training job unless they had significant disabilities (mental/physical).  Of course this does not mean they are washed up if they don't figure this out immediately at the age of 18.  There are many different paths. 

 

I probably am not entirely understanding what this thread is about though. 

[Alessandra]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/13/opinion/sunday/what-the-privileged-poor-can-teach-us.html

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/18/magazine/who-gets-to-graduate.html

 

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/05/28/upshot/you-draw-it-how-family-income-affects-childrens-college-chances.html

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/23/education/poor-students-struggle-as-class-plays-a-greater-role-in-success.html

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/23/business/economy/education-gap-between-rich-and-poor-is-growing-wider.html

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/10/education/education-gap-grows-between-rich-and-poor-studies-show.html

 

Hunter, you have an interesting subject here. I found a few more articles I like (above). You might also enjoy Diane Ravitch's blog -- I read it at least once per day. Lots is about charter school and standardized testing, but Diane is a firm proponent of the idea that education can best be improved by improving family's socio-economic conditions, and you will find many commentaries and links on that. For example, how test scores scan be predicted quite accurately by census data. :-(

 

http://dianeravitch.net

 

Although this is more about poverty than blue collar, you might like this:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/this-superintendent-has-figured-out-how-to-make-school-work-for-poor-kids/2015/12/20/cadac2ca-a4e6-11e5-ad3f-991ce3374e23_story.html

[Alessandra]

Oh, and on a slightly different subject, an ethnic divide in education philosophy:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/26/nyregion/reforms-to-ease-students-stress-divide-a-new-jersey-school-district.html?_r=0

[SparklyUnicorn]

Just looked up a local welding school.  It is a 12 week program (very short).  It costs $6700 (financial aid available).  So relatively inexpensive, but not free.

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Adding another possibly related article of interest:

 

http://news.slashdot.org/story/15/12/22/2152209/poverty-stunts-iq-in-the-us-but-not-in-other-developed-countries

[idnib]

Do most people mentally define themselves by class?

 

I think that class is not just strata designed by the government but also a social construct and a state of mind. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Interesting you mention that. I have looked into this before, for myself, when I was unemployed. It's a very well-paying field, at least by my standards. I find that figure very expensive, and the program I looked into cost much less, but if financial aid is available, that's great.

 

Yes it is a decent paying job.

[Hunter]

My dad was a groundskeeper and my mom is a nurse. My husband worked retail for years and, while I have a BA and MA, work part time in an office.

 

My dad has memorized numerous Frost and Kipling poems, Kennedy speeches, knows Latin, etc. My mom had won a full scholarship to Fordham but dropped out when her Dad became ill, so she could work and support the family.

 

I think it's harder to define blue collar because, around here, people who work in offices don't make more than people who work in manufacturing and trades.

 

I have been in many college classes where the professor started talking about blue collar and working class, and they totally described my family (as far as income, education level, etc) and then started going down a path that would cause me to say "apparently I'm from a working class family, but the stuff you just started to say - it doesn't apply at all."

 

And then they would tell me my situation was unusual. But I'm not sure it was. So these discussions are hard for me. Apparently I was privileged blue collar because my parents read books to us.

You are not unusual. Just because non-working class people think it is unusual for working-class people to read books is an example classism.

 

You are hitting on an important topic for a thread or multiple threads.

[Arcadia]

I do know the meaning of genteel poverty and have seen instances of it. My country was a british colony until 1959.

 

To use a stupid example, my daughter is fascinated by space and has hinted that she would love to be an astronaut in the past.

My DS11 has said he wanted to be an astronaut since he was a toddler. He is not a U.S. citizen. He calculated the odds of being an astronaut after reading up on the requirements. He decided that

 

Astronaut - something nice to aim for

Architect/engineer - what he would be happy working as to bring food to the table

Small business owner - what he want to be while holding down a decent paying job

 

He has always been interested in career planning. DS10 is my tag along and he has started thinking because of DS11's discussions.

[Renai]

(First off, thanks for that post, that was very interesting to read!)

 

This is another very interesting thing we could discuss — mindsets and reality. 

 

 

The mindset I would like my dd to have is not of upward mobility, but not that of generational poverty either. I hate to say, but dh has a gp mindset, although he would like to move up. I believe I have a middle class mindset. We live in an area where there are very poor and very wealthy in a high COL area. Multi-million dollar wealthy people, some of whom I've met because of dh's job. Homeless people we know because, partly because dh and I met as residents in a homeless shelter, and partly because I work in education and meet all types. There is a large range of "middle-class" here, and as large a range of mindsets and realities due to the history of this area. it is hard to summarize, so I won't, but I do want dd to have a realistic mindset that she can work hard, but she needs something she can do. I don't want her chasing rainbows and unicorns (she used to think she'd get rich being a dancer), but don't want her to have a defeatist mentally. She doesn't have to move up from middle class (or are we working-class, now? who knows?), but she also doesn't need a mindset that will set her back. 

 

Does that make more sense of where I'm coming from?

[Hunter]

Do most people mentally define themselves by class?

 

It hadn't ever occurred to me to do so, and now that you ask, I'm having trouble doing so. When you first used the term "genteel poverty" I thought maybe you meant something like us, but your anecdote describing it showed me I was wrong.

 

We are from families where university education is expected, and dh has a j.d. In an area where many people are painfully, abjectly poor and quite a number are extremely wealthy, we are in the rare position in the middle (though people sometimes expect us to be on the wealthy side because of dh's work). In this area, "the middle" means that we are living and homeschooling our four kids on one income while I am a SAHM and we are very slowly but surely making progress on digging out our student loan and medical debts. We don't qualify for any government assistance programs, I cook everything from scratch and mend clothes, etc, to live within our means, and our family of six lives in a rented 900 sq. ft. manufactured home. We are doing well in my estimation, though our current standard of living would be considered poverty in either of the middle-to upper-middle class areas where dh and I grew up (and either vastly better or worse than almost everyone I know here).

 

So, what "class" are we? I guess middle class if you have to put a name to it, but it's an awkward fit.

Class is weird to discuss in the USA. The most common descriptions of class are usually outsiders describing "other".

 

My anectdotes of genteel poverty all took place in a British colony, and the first year arriving in this country, so are going to be different than typical USA stories.

 

I'm really curious to listen to people self-identify, after recently reading some pretty ridiculous descriptions of working-class by outsiders.

 

And I made sure to leave room for people to say they don't even believe in class.

 

Confusion and hesitency is expected!

 

And for people without hesitency that know exactly where there are, I am playing a bit of matchmaking for someone starting a subforum.

 

A subforum that will allow some people to go off to the side and whisper about some things they are afraid to talk about in public. And after they hash some things out in safety will come back to enrich this public forum.

 

And in the meantime, here is public, some of us can continue brainstorming, and showing hesitency and confusion, and asking questions that might have no answers.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I used to work as the help for a number of very wealthy people.  (Think of people in the top of the society pages with multiple international homes).  That was where I saw the biggest divide in mindset because they just could not even consider certain things as being a need or a problem.  I've also, at times, met people in that same very wealthy class, but as a peer instead of the hired help.  I remember these two young women fretting about what to serve for dinner and I made a few kitchen suggestions.  Dh whispered in my ear that I had misunderstood - they were fretting about what to tell their cook to prepare! 

 

Perhaps there are people who think of me as having the same divide in mindset, though I've worked in ministries with low income and homeless populations for years and it never seemed to me that we had a huge divide in how we approached our needs. 

 

The thing is, having worked with and been friends with people of all sorts, I've discovered that income and education don't discriminate when it comes to problems:  mental, physical, addiction, etc.  There are jerks in all classes.  And there are beautiful people in all classes.  It is hard to be poor though - you have to work harder for the basics and so they take up a much higher portion of your time and energy. 

[Hunter]

This is a thread to ramble! Ramble if you want to ramble. I want to hear rambles. Renai, thank you for rambling.

 

There is a group forming, but here is for the rambles, and people not exactly for that group starting.

 

I am HERE and I want to here your rambles.

 

There are multiple goals being juggled in this thread and hard topics being discussed and I am so very proud of us, that this has stayed kind and productive. My eyes are getting a bit misty. Sometimes I set such a low bar for humans. You all are raising my ideas of what humans are capable of.

 

I am tapping my responses out on a cell phone. Forgive me for randomly responding, and often to those that will launch more responses.

 

I love you all. I am interested in every post. I'm bleary eyed, and in pain from hunching over my phone tapping with one finger. I'm in mobile view and can't do and see some of the most basic things.

 

Please no one be offended or feel slighted. I can't keep up as well as I wish I could. This is being very-low income. I do what I can, and then ask for grace from you all, for my shortcomings.

[aggieamy]

No, but they all require some sort of education after high school.  Usually it's much shorter than getting an academic degree, but still it's education that will take time and cost money.

 

With blue collar, it was a lot about being trained on the job.  Stuff like factory work.  My dad was a screw machine set up/operator trained on the job.  He made enough to support a family of four.  That job does not exist anymore.  If there is any manufacturing left at all it is all about computerized machines requiring training (often not on the job training). 

 

I can't think of too many jobs that pay any sort of amount one can scrape by on that don't require some sort of training outside of high school.  So I'm saying I would not pigeon hole my kid into a zero skill/training job unless they had significant disabilities (mental/physical).  Of course this does not mean they are washed up if they don't figure this out immediately at the age of 18.  There are many different paths. 

 

I probably am not entirely understanding what this thread is about though. 

 

LOL.  I think I might be missing the point also but at least you and I seem to be having a nice discussion on non-white collar jobs.

 

Our plan with DS (once again assuming he for whatever reason would not be interested in a traditional college carreer path) would be to get him setup with trade school or the skills he would need to be employable as a crane operator.  We have money set aside for college and would be delighted to pay DS way through welding school if he thought that was a something he thought he would like to do for a living.  Our goal with both of our children is to get them to adulthood with the skills they need to have a job they 1) somewhat enjoy 2) will leave them able to support a family  3) is going to be something they can do until they retire or at least puts them in a position to move up.  My DH and I are very practical people.  

 

Are welders and heavy machinery operators considered blue-collar?  Is that different than working on the GM line or being a clerk in a hardware store by social class standards?  I don't know.  DH and I know a number of people who we look at the mess they have with their careers (or lack thereof) and wonder why nobody ever gave them any advice.  DH stumbled into being an engineer after getting a four-year degree that was not marketable.  Someone should have sat him down in high school and said "Hey buddy.  I've looked at your strengths and your interests.  You should be applying to these engineering schools and looking at these career options."  They didn't.  Instead they said, "Do what is interesting to you."  Yeah.  What is interesting to a 18 year old boy with no life experience was a job that got him a four year degree with a starting salary of $18k a year and a job in the wilds of west Texas.

 

Another example.  A girl I know has her masters degree in family psychology.  It cost her $50k and 7 years of her life to get that degree.  Upon graduation she got a job making less than $25k a year and she had an hour each way commute to go with that.  A year later she had a baby and is now a SAHM.  It's all she really ever wanted to do.  She and her husband are still paying on those student loans.  That doesn't make sense to me.  She could have started working at Aldi's or Trader Joes right after high school and in the eight years before she had a baby made enough to have paid off their house.  That would be in amazing financial shape.  

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that a college degree is not the only path to success or happiness and I wish that people would not just go to college without a good plan of WHY they are studying what they are studying and WHAT they want to do when they graduate.  

 

(For the sake of full disclosure - My parents get very upset if I say anything about DS having an option other than college.  To them there is no other option.) 

Edited December 26, 2015 by aggieamy

[Caribbean Queen]

 

 

;)

Edited December 31, 2015 by Caribbean Queen

[Hunter]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/13/opinion/sunday/what-the-privileged-poor-can-teach-us.html

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/18/magazine/who-gets-to-graduate.html

 

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/05/28/upshot/you-draw-it-how-family-income-affects-childrens-college-chances.html

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/23/education/poor-students-struggle-as-class-plays-a-greater-role-in-success.html

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/23/business/economy/education-gap-between-rich-and-poor-is-growing-wider.html

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/10/education/education-gap-grows-between-rich-and-poor-studies-show.html

 

Hunter, you have an interesting subject here. I found a few more articles I like (above). You might also enjoy Diane Ravitch's blog -- I read it at least once per day. Lots is about charter school and standardized testing, but Diane is a firm proponent of the idea that education can best be improved by improving family's socio-economic conditions, and you will find many commentaries and links on that. For example, how test scores scan be predicted quite accurately by census data. :-(

 

http://dianeravitch.net

 

Although this is more about poverty than blue collar, you might like this:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/this-superintendent-has-figured-out-how-to-make-school-work-for-poor-kids/2015/12/20/cadac2ca-a4e6-11e5-ad3f-991ce3374e23_story.html

Thank you! I will need to get onto a library computer to access these links or somehow log into the library subscription.

 

Low-income does teach us how to problem-solve doesn't it?

[SparklyUnicorn]

LOL.  I think I might be missing the point also but at least you and I seem to be having a nice discussion on non-white collar jobs.

 

Our plan with DS (once again assuming he for whatever reason would not be interested in a traditional college carreer path) would be to get him setup with trade school or the skills he would need to be employable as a crane operator.  We have money set aside for college and would be delighted to pay DS way through welding school if he thought that was a something he thought he would like to do for a living.  Our goal with both of our children is to get them to adulthood with the skills they need to have a job they 1) somewhat enjoy 2) will leave them able to support a family  3) is going to be something they can do until they retire or at least puts them in a position to move up.  My DH and I are very practical people.  

 

Are welders and heavy machinery operators considered blue-collar?  Is that different than working on the GM line or being a clerk in a hardware store by social class standards?  I don't know.  DH and I know a number of people who we look at the mess they have with their careers (or lack thereof) and wonder why nobody ever gave them any advice.  DH stumbled into being an engineer after getting a four-year degree that was not marketable.  Someone should have sat him down in high school and said "Hey buddy.  I've looked at your strengths and your interests.  You should be applying to these engineering schools and looking at these career options."  They didn't.  Instead they said, "Do what is interesting to you."  Yeah.  What is interesting to a 18 year old boy with no life experience was a job that got him a four year degree with a starting salary of $18k a year and a job in the wilds of west Texas.

 

Another example.  A girl I know has her masters degree in family psychology.  It cost her $50k and 7 years of her life to get that degree.  Upon graduation she got a job making less than $25k a year and she had an hour each way commute to go with that.  A year later she had a baby and is now a SAHM.  It's all she really ever wanted to do.  She and her husband are still paying on those student loans.  That doesn't make sense to me.  She could have started working at Aldi's or Trader Joes right after high school and in the eight years before she had a baby made enough to have paid off their house.  That would be in amazing financial shape.  

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that a college degree is not the only path to success or happiness and I wish that people would not just go to college without a good plan of WHY they are studying what they are studying and WHAT they want to do when they graduate.  

 

(For the sake of full disclosure - My parents get very upset if I say anything about DS having an option other than college.  To them there is no other option.) 

 

I have a BA in psych (1996).  Upon graduation I didn't make much either, but within a year I was making 32K a year with very good benefits.  Prior to graduating I only could get minimum wage jobs with no benefits.  So I think my degree was well worth it (I went to a state school).  Most people do not make a lot immediately upon graduating.  That is something I don't think is stressed enough. 

 

Yeah Aldi is a good gig.  Although the stores are small so I imagine they don't hire very many people. 

 

I know it is not the only path, but I think most should aim for at least some sort of training program (unless they are very limited for some reason).  My sister dropped out at 16.  She got her GED at 17.  She went to school for medical assisting (one year program).  She made enough money to support herself and there were a lot of job openings for that. 

 

I just wonder, what sorts of things are there if you have no education? 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Plus speaking of Aldi, even if they don't require a degree, I wonder if they'd hire the guy with a degree over the guy without, with all else being fairly equal. 

 

 

[Guest]

I am thinking that these things are difficult to discuss, too, because so many of us these days don't belong to any community in meaningful ways. So it's hard to identify where we fall without basing it on money...and, as we have seen repeatedly, you can possibly make a lot of money without an advanced degree or you can possibly be in abject poverty though you have lots of advanced degrees and work your tail off, to boot.

 

So, without belonging to a subgroup (like Hunter's dock workers), we base our thoughts on ourselves, not our communities, because that's what we're working with irl. Just us, ourselves. Modern man is remarkably disconnected at the community level!

 

------

 

It *is,* in the US more unusual to be read to as a child, the poorer you are.

 

This board is rife with anecdotal evidence that that is not true, but that's because of where we are and why we are here. Likewise, the people we are likely to voluntarily associate with aren't, usually, going to be in that "can't read past an 8th grade level" category.

 

 

 

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Plus speaking of Aldi, even if they don't require a degree, I wonder if they'd hire the guy with a degree over the guy without, with all else being fairly equal. 

 

It was a long time ago, but there was a time when I was literally pounding the pavement for work after college  Dunkin Donuts wouldn't hire me because they said that I would quit as soon as I found something better because I had that option.  The small grocery store wouldn't hire me even though I didn't put down my education on the application because the manager told me that it was obvious that I had education because I "talked too good".  Place after place I got the same story.  I even went to interview to be a telemarketer and was told "no".  The lady actually pulled me aside to tell me that I could do better.  I was beside myself because I literally had no food in the house except for what I got at the foodbank which was not supposed to be your only food, but no one wanted me for these jobs.  I couldn't apply for higher paying jobs right then because I had no transportation. 

 

[aggieamy]

Plus speaking of Aldi, even if they don't require a degree, I wonder if they'd hire the guy with a degree over the guy without, with all else being fairly equal. 

 

I'm using Aldi as my example because I'm impressed with their business model and in the years that I have been shopping there I've seen mostly the same people so I know it must at least be a decent place to work otherwise their would be higher turnover.  The people working at my Aldi mostly do not have college degrees.  Two of the girls that I am chatty with are in their early twenties and started there right out of high school.  I wouldn't recommend it for a life long job but I would recommend it over an expensive degree that you aren't interested in building into a career.  I do not know what happens at a management level at a store like Aldi or Trader Joes.  I'm assuming there must be a degree requirement.  I also wonder if you are managing a store like that what kind of salary is that.  Enough to support a family on?  What about a local large grocery store?  There are lots of jobs out there that I don't know about that might be great careers.

[4KookieKids]

So I also wanted to add to the discussion that none of my real-life homeschooling friends are on boards like these to my knowledge (none of them have ever heard of them when I bring them up, at least). I live in an area where homeschooling is very popular/prevalent for personal and religious reasons. I think almost all of the homeschoolers near me would be considered lower middle class, with jobs that don't require a high level or specialized education or training but are more about hard work, loyalty, and picking things up as you go.

 

For these families, the most important reason to homeschool is usually a combination of avoiding the evils of PS (and private, for that matter...) and wanting to be the main influence in their children's lives (even beyond the preschool years). Most of them don't have advanced degrees, and many have little beyond high school or some basic college. Most of them qualify for state assistance of some sort, regardless of whether or not they take it. They don't break their heads over getting the best curriculum or the best for their kid, and they're perfectly content with a "good enough" academic education that still allows them to be with their kids most of the time and more carefully control their children's exposure to undesirable content/environment.

 

I'm not sure why most of them aren't on boards like these, honestly. I don't know if they just never heard of it or if there's no desire or both. They're content to have a real life community of homeschoolers to connect with (think: co-ops and such). Now that I'm thinking about this, I wonder how much flack they've gotten regarding their own education and experiences, as it pertains to being an effective and qualified teacher to their children. I'm interested in talking with them some about this once the coop starts back up, if I can find a tactful way of doing so, because it relates to a question I posted on these boards a while back when I was sort of dumb-struck that people were just using curriculum a friend recommended without actually doing any research into what type of curriculum it was, pros, cons, etc. I just couldn't understand that people were (seemingly) putting so little thought into the education they gave their children, but I've since just really come to realize that the academic side of things just isn't as much of a priority for them and they're actually quite content with "only" a "decent" academic situation.

 

So I wonder if this type of board, just by its nature, excludes some of the "blue collar" "working class" folks that this sort of thread is gearing towards. I don't know. I just wonder.

 

ETA except for my advanced degree, there are no huge differences between myself and my friends here who I described above I don't think. I may have grown up poorer than them and I may have been blessed with more intellect by lucky fate than them, but I certainly didn't have an easier or richer life or childhood than most of them.

Edited December 26, 2015 by deanna1ynne

[Ms.Ivy]

Low-income homeschoolers can get a double-whammy of judgement from those with different circumstances and choices, so I completely understand the desire to discuss certain challenges with homeschooling in private.  I have even seen, on this forum, people condemning families for using government assistance for food.  To me it is a form of hypocrisy to condemn the family of 6 who uses $10,000 a year in food assistance, but who homeschools and saves the taxpayers $40,000 a year in educational assistance.  In America, you have to have just the right kind of financial assistance -- from your parents or through the public schools -- but if you use the "wrong" kind of assistance, you're "abusing the system."   

 

There is also the problem with income being associated with educational success -- money as the causal element -- myths perpetuated by an ineffective public school system and the media.  I frequently see reports about the educational "risks" of being low-income.  People try so hard to make money the determining factor in a child's intelligence level and educational attainment.  It's so much more complicated than that.  And I think homeschoolers are mainly the ones to blow those notions out of the water.  I think those might be the stories that people are looking for.  The ones that prove that our children's destiny is not pre-determined by the circumstances of the parent's upbringing.  Ultimately they are stories of hope in a complicated world.  This is why telling certain moms that they "need" to buy a $100 phonics program to teach their children well, or recommending they buy a new program for each child because they're all so different, or to read difficult stuff like Plutarch, feels a bit hopeless to those who can't.  It's not bad to do those things, but I totally understand the desire to focus on how to succeed with both alternative definitions of success and alternative resources.