Wabi Sabi Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 My 11 year old 5th grader simply CANNOT master his math facts. I'm at a loss. We've spent five years doing flashcards. Two years of no progress with xtramath, then switched to a one year subscription to Reflex Math. It didn't help either and now we're back to xtramath, I've increased his time to give him 6 seconds to respond and he still misses the majority of them. We've gone through the Five Times Five is Not Ten book. We've skip counted, we've skip counted to music, we've listened to multiplication facts set to music. Nothing sticks. We've taken a break from his math curriculum and just focused on memorizing facts, but after long periods of no progress I felt like we had to just move forward, so I gave him a multiplication chart to use and we picked back up with our curriculum. He understands the process of multiplication, the recall just isn't there. He has to count up in his head for almost every problem. He can do grade level math, but even with just giving him a laminated multiplication chart to use, he's slllloooow. A math page that should take 15 minutes takes him an hour. He's not goofing off or spacing out- it genuinely just takes him that long to process the numbers, it seems. Math ends up taking us an inordinate amount of time. I'm reluctant to set the timer for 40 minutes and just have him get done what he can do in that time because he would quickly get further behind than what is acceptable for our needs. It has become such a source of tension that I wish I could just hire someone else to come in and do math with him daily so that I could wash my hands of it, but that's not an option. I know not to compare children, but his struggle is even more apparent and obvious when his little sister started xtramath and within a few months has gotten farther along than he has gotten in several years of work. He sees how easily it comes to her and it just disheartens him more. I don't know what else to do. Do I just have to accept that this is how he is with math or is there something else out there that I haven't tried? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Jessica* Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 No advice, but I'm right there with you. My son is almost 12 and in 6th grade and skips counts for every multiplication problem. Memorizing them just isn't happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
school17777 Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Play a lot of math games. Of course there is the Rightstart games, you can go to their website and watch how to play some of their popular games and make your own cards up. Seven Ate Nine, fun for everyone to play. Zeus on the Loose Skip Bo Muggins (can make your own board up) I would do these games instead of flashcards or other activities. You can find more on pinterest too. Dd and I just played a coin game where you roll a die and take that many pennies. Once you have enough to exchange for a nickel, you do so, and then you keep exchanging coins so you have the fewest coins that you can. The first person that reaches a $1 wins. It was fun and a good way to practice adding. I don't think he would think it is too young to play. I also saw a new game yesterday called Mobi that comes with number and operation tiles. https://www.thegrommet.com/mobi-numerical-tile-game 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 . He can do grade level math, but even with just giving him a laminated multiplication chart to use, he's slllloooow. A math page that should take 15 minutes takes him an hour. He's not goofing off or spacing out- it genuinely just takes him that long to process the numbers, it seems. I would be worried about the slowness even with the multiplication chart. How is his reading speed in general when it comes to reading a book out loud? Just wondering if it is visual, processing or both. I have visual (tracking) issues, it is faster for me to compute than for me to find the number on the multiplication chart. My kids find the numbers way before me. My DS9 is a slower reader compare to my DS10 because he read every single word seriously even for leisure reading. He also took longer to remember his math facts but was fast if I ask him to write his own multiplication chart before using his chart while doing the workbook/worksheet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starr Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Cribbage, even half a game. It helped one of ours. And a math professor friend did this in his middle school math class. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melmichigan Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Has he ever been tested? One of my DD's has a memory and processing disorder that makes math extremely difficult for her. In 7th she now has most of her addition/subtraction down and still struggles with multiplication/division. We were told she'd never memorize them, but we have stuck with it. In day to day math work she will use multiplication/division sheet, but it still takes her much longer than the other kids. It's something that we have had to learn to accommodate while still challenging her. She also reads very slow, but has excellent retention. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freesia Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 I like all the ideas. We like xtramath.org. You can adjust it to more seconds. It tests the child and works with what they know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annie Elle Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Flash cards and xtramath did not help my kid who struggles with math facts. Times Tales is awesome and helped him tremendously. http://www.timestales.com 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wabi Sabi Posted September 22, 2015 Author Share Posted September 22, 2015 I would be worried about the slowness even with the multiplication chart. How is his reading speed in general when it comes to reading a book out loud? Just wondering if it is visual, processing or both. I have visual (tracking) issues, it is faster for me to compute than for me to find the number on the multiplication chart. My kids find the numbers way before me. My DS9 is a slower reader compare to my DS10 because he read every single word seriously even for leisure reading. He also took longer to remember his math facts but was fast if I ask him to write his own multiplication chart before using his chart while doing the workbook/worksheet. No reading difficulties at all. It's not at all unusual for him to sit and read an entire novel in an afternoon. The speed issues seem to go back to his recall- just as he has a hard time with immediate recall of the facts, he has a hard time with immediate recall of math procedures. I just watched him do a simple order of operations review problem and it went something like this. 25 + 8 x 5 ÷ 2 He slowly reads the problem out loud to himself several times. I then hear him mumble, "Um...parenthesis....um...division and multiplication...um...then addition and subtraction....um..." Then he reads it out loud to himself. And he repeats what he needs to do again, "Um, parenthesis...okay, no parenthesis...so 25 + 8 is let's see...um, no...I need to do 8 X 5. That's, um....40? Ok. 40. Now I need to divide that by 2..." He has to very slowly walk himself through the procedure of doing each problem, even when doing a series of problems that are all pretty much the same. It's just so tedious and painstaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Above The Rowan Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 I'm interested in what ideas you get You could have been writing this post about my DS, except he's in 4th grade. Math has become drudgery in this house and I have no idea what else to try. I see some good ideas already in this post. :) I will be following along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HS Mom in NC Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Right there with you. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wabi Sabi Posted September 22, 2015 Author Share Posted September 22, 2015 Has he ever been tested? One of my DD's has a memory and processing disorder that makes math extremely difficult for her. In 7th she now has most of her addition/subtraction down and still struggles with multiplication/division. We were told she'd never memorize them, but we have stuck with it. In day to day math work she will use multiplication/division sheet, but it still takes her much longer than the other kids. It's something that we have had to learn to accommodate while still challenging her. She also reads very slow, but has excellent retention. What kind of testing would I look into? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 With your update, I would see if it is possible to get him tested for working memory and processing speed. My kids did the wisc because that test has sub scores for working memory and processing speed. There may be other tests available. If there is an issue, it is possible to accommodate before work load gets more in middle school. If there are no issues, at least you have eliminate that possibility. link explains better what could be possible issues. http://solutions.unl.edu/wiki/DISLDMATH ​ ETA: The recall of facts would have an impact if he ever have to take a closed book test on a fact heavy subject like history or biology (anatomy). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melmichigan Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 What kind of testing would I look into? I agree with Arcadia. WISC would be a good recommendation. My DD has a high IQ, but processing speed and working memory scores that are well below normal. This is the basis for her struggles. Most psychologists or neuropsychologists would be able to give the tests. For us the combination of IQ and Achievement helped narrow down problem areas. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almondbutterandjelly Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 My dd finally memorized her multiplication facts in 5th grade, but we spent all year on it. I like Memorize in Minutes: The Times Tables because it has pictures and stories. 8x8 = 64 is something like skate times skates equals sticky floor, and there's a little story and picture about that. http://www.amazon.com/Memorize-Minutes-Tables-Teaching-Manual/dp/0965176967 We also tried using the above recommended Times Tales, but it doesn't have all the math facts. Plus we bought Dianne Craft's Right Brain Multiplication cards. But my favorite is the Memorize in Minutes. (It doesn't take minutes, by the way, hate the name. But it's good stuff.) It does have all the facts, and the stories and pics are cute. They have large versions of the pictures in the back of the book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
My3girls Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Dd10 has working memory and processing issues. She is way behind dd9 in math facts. We are using xtramath.org, and I have her on the 6s setting. When she hits 85%, I move her on. She started multiplication a couple of weeks ago. Once she gets through all 4, then I'll have her go back through and see if we can get to 100% then start 3s. I think she'll get it eventually it's just going to take her longer. She's workng on MM4 this year so she's behind a bit in math in general. I figure it will even out sometime in Middle School. I don't see calculus in her future, but I hope to get her through Alg 2. I don't give her a chart, though. She works through it every time. I think this will help her with the retention in the long run; although, it does stretch math out a bit some days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 What are you using for his primary math instruction? Just curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wabi Sabi Posted September 22, 2015 Author Share Posted September 22, 2015 What are you using for his primary math instruction? Just curious. We have always used Math Mammoth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerileanne99 Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 My dd finally memorized her multiplication facts in 5th grade, but we spent all year on it. I like Memorize in Minutes: The Times Tables because it has pictures and stories. 8x8 = 64 is something like skate times skates equals sticky floor, and there's a little story and picture about that. http://www.amazon.com/Memorize-Minutes-Tables-Teaching-Manual/dp/0965176967 We also tried using the above recommended Times Tales, but it doesn't have all the math facts. Plus we bought Dianne Craft's Right Brain Multiplication cards. But my favorite is the Memorize in Minutes. (It doesn't take minutes, by the way, hate the name. But it's good stuff.) It does have all the facts, and the stories and pics are cute. They have large versions of the pictures in the back of the book. This is the book I believe that goes with the site Multiplication.com...we love the stories that accompany the math facts. Nothing short of miraculous. You can buy the book, or just download the cards for $0.99 and read the stories for free on the website. There are also free games to play there. Similar to Times Tales, but we preferred these. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lots of little ducklings Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Following. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No More Perfect Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 No helpful ideas to add, but yeah, I'm right there with you. :glare: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ringwoodgal Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 If he had memory and processing deficiencies, wouldn't you notice it in other subject areas as well? Maybe he is a visual-spatial learner. If so, his computational skills may never be adequate, but he could be brilliant conceptually. If you let him use a calculator, you may be surprised at how far he progresses in math. I've read that some visual-spatial learners are really held back by the expectation to know math facts quickly, which affects their attitude towards math and and prevents them from pursuing math-related careers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 We have always used Math Mammoth. Perhaps something different for math would be better for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Have you tried one of the facts-with-stories options? Calvin learned from the stories at multiplication.com. It took an hour. L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
athomeontheprairie Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Something that really worked for us... If she had a math fact page that she needed to work through, and complete in under five minutes, she couldn't. it was too much, it was too hard. And it resulted in a lot of tears for her. I had tried stopping her after five minutes, I had tried letting her go as long as she needed. We were not seeing any improvement at all. Until I lied. not a great parenting strategy I'll admit it but it really worked here. for two days she completed the page in six minutes. But I had told her she only had five. whether I blatantly lied or lied by omission I don't remember. BUT it resulted in her believing that she could do it. once she believed she could do it in under five minutes, her time sped up dramatically. it was really quite amazing. prior, it was taking her about 10 to 15 minutes- and I wanted them done in five. after those two days- she was under four minutes. a week later under three. a month, she was under two! I REALLY don't think we should lie to our kids, but I don't feel bad about giving my daughter the self-esteem boost she needed so that she could realize she was smart enough to solve the problems. knowing that she could do it resulted in her being able to do it 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateMomster Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Have you tried chants? I thoroughly dislike flashcards and games without any sequence. My boys learn the tables, one at the time. Just chanting them every day until they stick. Just: 1x3=3, 2x3=6 3x3=9 etc... Boring but effective. When in a game (or in daily math work) you get 8x7 thrown at you, and you don't know it by heart it takes quite a long time to figure it out, but for us, the chants work amazingly well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Here too. Exact same thing. We've tried pretty much all the suggestions in this thread. I got nothin'. I really think for my ds that he knows them, he just doesn't trust himself. And he doesn't know them perfectly, but the other day I pulled out a multiples worksheet drill to make him practice and I refused to let him actually do any of the math. I was like, just tell me if it's a multiple or not, first gut reaction. He got about 90% - which says to me that he does basically know it - he's close. Of course, he gets 100% when he goes through it his way... but my "Fast! Fast! Gut reaction! NOW!" took less than a minute for the whole page. His method took fifteen minutes. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest treelearn Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 I think the secret is to find ways of practicing the facts that are more engaging. Box Drop Math by Twenda Learning is a game (the Addition version is free) that kids find really fun: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/box-drop-math-addition/id1020536399?mt=8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrispyBiscuit Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 I'm not saying this is necessarily your kid's issue.... but I got so frustrated over math facts that, in July, I declared war on the matter. My son is 9 years old (4th grade). He can memorize stuff he's interested in with perfect gusto and proficiency. Knowing this, I declared in July (early July) that there would be absolutely NO screen-time (TV, Wii, etc.) until he had MASTERED THEM. I defined "mastered" as follows: being able to recite them VERBALLY and to write them quickly. I defined "quickly" as follows: the ability to recite one math fact every 2 seconds VERBALLY and the same math fact in less than 4 seconds WRITTEN. I also told him that he would be required to learn them both ways (8 + 4 = 12 AND 4 + 8 = 12). I bought Calcupak http://www.rainbowresource.com/proddtl.php?id=053045 as one tool to help us. I gave him the four decks of flashcards (addition, subtraction, multiplication, division) since I was beyond done with drilling them ANYmore. And, whatdaya know! Here it is in late September and I'd say he's just about MASTERED all of them (addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division) them. His recitation is VERY good now and approaching the less than 2 second mark, and we're waiting on his WRITTEN to meet the less than 4 seconds criterion. He's at about 7 seconds on the written now and is getting faster and faster by the day because he is ON HIS HEAD to get his screen time back. Another caveat....I had him learn the math facts up to 20! ( I did this under the influence of Leigh Bortins, Classical Conversations founder/author), i.e. 20 x 1= 20 20 x 2 = 40 20 x 3 = 60 and, i.e. 20 + 15 = 35 20 + 11 = 31 20 + 20 = 40..... now, before anyone is tempted to say how cruel that was as if his inability to get the BIG digit facts wrong was what led to my frustration/declaration of war, let me clarify that not only was he totally not getting those biggies, but he wasn't getting the 9 - 4 or the 6 divided by 3 either !!!! It was ridiculous ! For him, it was about finding the right motivator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris in VA Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Do you see any other evidence of automatic processing disorder? Not saying that's the issue. Just another kind of processing glitch to look for. It's basically that it takes a longer time than the norm for things to reach automaticity. A family member has this. For example, he had to really think about tying his shoes for a lot longer than most people--what should become automatic thru repetition just doesn't quite reach that as soon for this person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BooksandBoys Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Dd10 has working memory and processing issues. She is way behind dd9 in math facts. We are using xtramath.org, and I have her on the 6s setting. When she hits 85%, I move her on. She started multiplication a couple of weeks ago. Once she gets through all 4, then I'll have her go back through and see if we can get to 100% then start 3s. I think she'll get it eventually it's just going to take her longer. She's workng on MM4 this year so she's behind a bit in math in general. I figure it will even out sometime in Middle School. I don't see calculus in her future, but I hope to get her through Alg 2. I don't give her a chart, though. She works through it every time. I think this will help her with the retention in the long run; although, it does stretch math out a bit some days. This is a great plan. I think I'll use it. Thank you for sharing it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zarabellesmom Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 My daughter has been memorizing her multiplication facts for four years. We drill them everyday. She had a similarly hard time with addition and subtraction facts. I eventually gave up on those and moved on. She does know her addition and subtraction facts, but she's not fast enough for reflex math. For multiplication, we have used Times Tales (she can't remember characters and stories quickly enough to make this useful), Timez Attack, xtra math, making her own table that she could use just for the day (making a fresh table daily)and now we are back to reflex math. Math does take her a while to complete, but she makes it worse by staring off into space. I've had her tested by an educational psychologist. She, like some other posters have mentioned, has slow processing speed and low working memory. The psychologist used the WISC IV. Rote recall is just never going to be her thing. We keep slowly plugging away at it, because she is slowly improving. For regular work, she uses a table and it's colored in such away that I believe it makes it easier to find the fact that she is looking for. If you have the money I would definitely look into having your son evaluated. It's really helped me understand my daughter and as an added benefit, she qualifies for untimed standardized testing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beircheart Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 My 11 year old 5th grader simply CANNOT master his math facts. I'm at a loss. We've spent five years doing flashcards. Two years of no progress with xtramath, then switched to a one year subscription to Reflex Math. It didn't help either and now we're back to xtramath, I've increased his time to give him 6 seconds to respond and he still misses the majority of them. We've gone through the Five Times Five is Not Ten book. We've skip counted, we've skip counted to music, we've listened to multiplication facts set to music. Nothing sticks. We've taken a break from his math curriculum and just focused on memorizing facts, but after long periods of no progress I felt like we had to just move forward, so I gave him a multiplication chart to use and we picked back up with our curriculum. He understands the process of multiplication, the recall just isn't there. He has to count up in his head for almost every problem. He can do grade level math, but even with just giving him a laminated multiplication chart to use, he's slllloooow. A math page that should take 15 minutes takes him an hour. He's not goofing off or spacing out- it genuinely just takes him that long to process the numbers, it seems. Math ends up taking us an inordinate amount of time. I'm reluctant to set the timer for 40 minutes and just have him get done what he can do in that time because he would quickly get further behind than what is acceptable for our needs. It has become such a source of tension that I wish I could just hire someone else to come in and do math with him daily so that I could wash my hands of it, but that's not an option. I know not to compare children, but his struggle is even more apparent and obvious when his little sister started xtramath and within a few months has gotten farther along than he has gotten in several years of work. He sees how easily it comes to her and it just disheartens him more. I don't know what else to do. Do I just have to accept that this is how he is with math or is there something else out there that I haven't tried? Maybe you do need to accept that is how he is with math. Don't give up and certainly don't allow it to become a source of misery in both your lives. But, if that is how he is just help him maximize the potential he has. It certainly does not mean higher concepts in math are beyond him. I'm 50+ with an engineering degree and a math minor. What you describe as your son at math is exactly how I did math and in a lot of instances, still do. No amount of flash cards, games, or memorizing times tables helped me one bit. Origionally, the numbers were drawn so that you could count angles and endpoints when adding and subtracting. I discovered ways to use the shapes of numbers to count out math problems because Sister Mary Holywater would pitch a fit if I was caught counting on my fingers. I never have seen a link to using the shape of the number to count on, but there must be one somewhere since that's how they started out. Addendum: I piqued my own curiosity so I found a site: http://www.slideshare.net/ghael0625/origin-of-numbers 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SporkUK Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 Maybe you do need to accept that is how he is with math. Don't give up and certainly don't allow it to become a source of misery in both your lives. But, if that is how he is just help him maximize the potential he has. It certainly does not mean higher concepts in math are beyond him. I'm 50+ with an engineering degree and a math minor. What you describe as your son at math is exactly how I did math and in a lot of instances, still do. No amount of flash cards, games, or memorizing times tables helped me one bit. Origionally, the numbers were drawn so that you could count angles and endpoints when adding and subtracting. I discovered ways to use the shapes of numbers to count out math problems because Sister Mary Holywater would pitch a fit if I was caught counting on my fingers. I never have seen a link to using the shape of the number to count on, but there must be one somewhere since that's how they started out. Addendum: I piqued my own curiosity so I found a site: http://www.slideshare.net/ghael0625/origin-of-numbers Off-topic nerdy factoid: While it cool that you found a system that works for you, the hypothesis in that link has been around for years -- and has no basis. The history of maths and Hindu-Arabic numbers that we now use is interesting, and the people involved made many discoveries and inventions with them, but a number system built on angles is not part of it. Here is a graph of how our numbers evolved: And that I do have this filed to have it so quickly to hand/paste shows what a big nerd I am :lol: OP: Assessment for dyscalculia or processing that others are recommending may be a good starting point for more targeted resources. For us, Math Trainer is a free maths fact site that my kids enjoy working on really helped break through certain blocking points in math facts. You can set what they working on, how many seconds for each (from 2 seconds up to 1 day), and it gives a visual chart at the end in the version we use that helps show problem areas. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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