Cowspiracy

[Laura Corin]

Cultural conditioning. I always think it is odd that we (cultural we) decided to domesticate and use these main animals for agricultural food production purposes, but rarely or never others. Deer, for instance, are so abundant and are used extensively as wild game but AFAIK, there are no farms raising venison. Why not? They would be so very easy to domesticate and they obviously breed readily. Why are there turkey farms, yet pheasant farms don't appear to have caught on?

 

That said, I'm not super excited about roasting grasshoppers.

 

Lots of venison farms around here.  They are harder to manage than cows, sheep or pigs, but it is done here.

 

Pheasants are raised for shooting here too.

 

Over history, the animals that have been domesticated have been the ones that had a natural social structure into which humans could easily insert themselves.

[Rosie_0801]

Hmmm. What does crocodile taste like?

 

I had an alligator burger. It tasted more like chicken than I expected it to.

 

Well, the sausages tasted pretty much like rice filler.  :glare:

 

The steaks were more or less like white fish that had been frozen (perhaps they had been frozen) but with a more chicken-like robustness.

[Rosie_0801]

 don't ever buy emu sausages :ohmy:

 

No kidding. 

 

I bought an emu pie once. I figure if you need that many herbs in it, emu must be pretty awful by itself.

[samba]

Our family has transitioned to a vegan diet (probably 95%) over the last 2 years or so. It was relatively easy for me.  I've never been a big meat or dairy eater.  My challenge was in finding new dishes I thought everyone else would be happy to eat.  My kids were a little slower to adapt.  They had their non-vegan favorites that were hard for them to give up.  But they are pretty easygoing where food is concerned.  They just like to eat!  My dh has been the most resistant, not because he consumed lots of meat but because he's always been a picky eater and less willing to try new things.  Now, if he wants meat, he knows he has to buy and prepare it.  But I didn't spring it on him all at once.  We had been discussing it for awhile and it was a gradual transition.  It helped that he was open to my reasons (mostly health) and was willing to watch and read the things I asked him to.

 

I've made this choice for our family but i don't push it on anyone else.  We each do what we think is best and I respect that.  My choice was made mostly for health but I do believe there is a lot of cruelty in animals-for-food industry and I'm happy to not participate in that.

 

I haven't watched Cowspiracy or Earthlings and don't plan to.  I don't need any convincing.  Just the discussion here about Cowspiracy gave me nightmares about slaughterhouses last night (really, truly).  It was horrifying.

[KungFuPanda]

We LOVE lamb at my house, but might eat it once a month. I shepherds pie, kabobs, steaks, and roasts mostly. I love to roast lamb with sweet potatoes. I don't know why it's so expensive here. I also don't know why people don't eat more deer. They're HERE and their abundance is a problem. It's not my favorite, but I suspect that's because my parents tried to sneak it into every friggin thing. It stews well enough and, in experienced hands, can be marinated/grilled into something magical.

 

As a child, squirrel with gravy and dumplings was my favorite, but it's been so long I'd have to work up the nerve to even try it again. My kids would freak. Also, I just don't have any cooking skills for wild game like my mother and grandmother have.

[ScoutTN]

Lots of deer hunters here, though not in my family. I occasionally get someone's extra venison. Several  families that we know have 3 or 4 hunters and give their extra venison (they pay for the processing) to local homeless shelters and soup kitchens or other places where it can help people who may not be able to afford meat often. 

[MFG]

There are a few venison farms here but yeah the fencing is huge. Also there are a lot in nz.

When we were in NZ lamb was a standard meat. We also semi-regularly had farmed venison. Lots of sausages, mostly not pork. Chicken was relatively expensive.

[Ravin]

Cows are environmentally not a problem when:

 

1. They are fed grass on range land not suitable for plant cultivation agriculture, not corn and soy grown on good farming land that could be used for other crops.

 

2. The grass range is intensively managed and NOT over-grazed.

 

Modern beef and dairy industry, even the "organic" category, doesn't generally follow these practices, in the U.S. or globally. In many parts of the world, traditional cattle raising doesn't follow these practices. In many parts of the world (including state-managed land in my home state), the grassland isn't suited to cattle but they're grazed there anyway. In others, forests get hacked down and cattle are brought in after a few years of farming depletes the soil, preventing the forest from growing back.

 

None of this involves conspiracy. Capitalism isn't a conspiracy. There are many, many independent actors looking for short-term gain over long-term eye for the impact on the land. This is true whether land is owned by a state or privately (so not necessarily a "tragedy of the commons" issue).

[Ravin]

Call me a wuss, but I can't eat lamb. Can't even stand the thought.

Eating lamb isn't any different than eating beef cattle. They aren't slaughtered when they're tiny and cute, but when they're bigger, uglier adolescent sheep.

[Ravin]

Rabbit. Super cheap protein, easy to raise, perfect city animal. But hardly anyone wants to eat Thumper /bunnies. My mil used to make a delicious rabbit stew. I didn't know I was eating rabbit at first ; thought it was extra -good chicken. Dh won't eat rabbit. Because Bunnies. But it is an option if one can't get other proteins for whatever reason.

 

I've discussed this with DD as something to do after we buy a house.

 

She said she'd be on board with it as long as the mama rabbit gets to be named and kept as a pet. She did see the chaos that resulted with a friend's gerbils that overbred.

 

Another small animal originally domesticated for meat is the guinea pig.

[beaners]

Yeah, but I have similar feelings about rabbit. Look - they are little bunnies, man! They even look like a bunny when they are prepared whole. Just a little, hairless, headless bunny.

Speaking of cultural constructs influencing what we eat, they look very similar to cats! There was a long running stereotype about a neighborhood in my hometown...

[fairfarmhand]

Cows are environmentally not a problem when:

 

1. They are fed grass on range land not suitable for plant cultivation agriculture, not corn and soy grown on good farming land that could be used for other crops.

 

2. The grass range is intensively managed and NOT over-grazed.

 

Modern beef and dairy industry, even the "organic" category, doesn't generally follow these practices, in the U.S. or globally. In many parts of the world, traditional cattle raising doesn't follow these practices. In many parts of the world (including state-managed land in my home state), the grassland isn't suited to cattle but they're grazed there anyway. In others, forests get hacked down and cattle are brought in after a few years of farming depletes the soil, preventing the forest from growing back.

 

None of this involves conspiracy. Capitalism isn't a conspiracy. There are many, many independent actors looking for short-term gain over long-term eye for the impact on the land. This is true whether land is owned by a state or privately (so not necessarily a "tragedy of the commons" issue).

 

Yup. This is why I encourage people to buy from a farmer rather than a label.

 

Talk to the farmer and see what his practices are. Organic certification is a huge expensive ordeal that many small producers just can't do. However, they often use organic/earth-friendly practices but they're just not certified.

 

[Mergath]

Cows are environmentally not a problem when:

 

1. They are fed grass on range land not suitable for plant cultivation agriculture, not corn and soy grown on good farming land that could be used for other crops.

 

2. The grass range is intensively managed and NOT over-grazed.

 

Modern beef and dairy industry, even the "organic" category, doesn't generally follow these practices, in the U.S. or globally. In many parts of the world, traditional cattle raising doesn't follow these practices. In many parts of the world (including state-managed land in my home state), the grassland isn't suited to cattle but they're grazed there anyway. In others, forests get hacked down and cattle are brought in after a few years of farming depletes the soil, preventing the forest from growing back.

 

None of this involves conspiracy. Capitalism isn't a conspiracy. There are many, many independent actors looking for short-term gain over long-term eye for the impact on the land. This is true whether land is owned by a state or privately (so not necessarily a "tragedy of the commons" issue).

 

Right. What makes this such a problem is the numbers, period. There is no way for ninety million plus cattle in the US alone to not have an environmental impact. It doesn't matter what grazing practices a person uses. 

 

The conspiracy referred to in the documentary isn't that this is happening perse, but that it appears the pro-animal ag lobbyists may be paying the environmental groups to lie about or intentionally avoid discussing the impact on the environment. I don't know if that qualifies as an actual conspiracy, but it's pretty damn shady if it's true. 

[Katy]

Right. What makes this such a problem is the numbers, period. There is no way for ninety million plus cattle in the US alone to not have an environmental impact. It doesn't matter what grazing practices a person uses. 

 

The conspiracy referred to in the documentary isn't that this is happening perse, but that it appears the pro-animal ag lobbyists may be paying the environmental groups to lie about or intentionally avoid discussing the impact on the environment. I don't know if that qualifies as an actual conspiracy, but it's pretty damn shady if it's true. 

 

But NOT having grazing animals wouldn't help.  Not having grazing animals makes carbon impacts worse in that they are needed for the health of grasslands.  Removing grazing animals, or lessening their numbers, has caused deserts to form all over the world.

[fairfarmhand]

But NOT having grazing animals wouldn't help.  Not having grazing animals makes carbon impacts worse in that they are needed for the health of grasslands.  Removing grazing animals, or lessening their numbers, has caused deserts to form all over the world.

 

Yeah, I think either way, extremes must be avoided.

 

It's not "Never eat beef/pork/chicken again" because that's not a good idea either.

 

It's that we (general we) have to figure out the best way of managing a "healthy" farm/ecosystem.

 

Animals, domesticated meat animals can be a part of the whole healthy earth. Probably not in the sheer number of cattle that are currently present in the US, but yes, they are an essential part of the picture.

[Aelwydd]

But NOT having grazing animals wouldn't help. Not having grazing animals makes carbon impacts worse in that they are needed for the health of grasslands. Removing grazing animals, or lessening their numbers, has caused deserts to form all over the world.

My concerns are:

 

-water consumption

-contamination of waterways and runoff leading to things like E. coli in spinach fields.

[Ravin]

My concerns are:

 

-water consumption

-contamination of waterways and runoff leading to things like E. coli in spinach fields.

 

Water consumption goes hand in hand with not overgrazing. Generally, if there's not enough water, there's not enough grass, and vice versa.

 

The E.Coli problems with feed lot cattle are a direct result of feeding them things they're not meant to eat. It turns their stomachs into E.Coli breeding grounds. This is then compounded by keeping them heavily concentrated.

 

Manure made from grass fed cow manure is not such a problem, though the best thing for it to fertilize is the grass.

[Laura Corin]

 In many parts of the world (including state-managed land in my home state), the grassland isn't suited to cattle but they're grazed there anyway. In others, forests get hacked down and cattle are brought in after a few years of farming depletes the soil, preventing the forest from growing back.

 

 

It was a revelation to me to tour a Texas ranch - we did the 40-minute short tour.  The cattle were few and far between, and the grazing was largely unsuited to cows.  I suspected that bison would have done much better on it, but I don't know.  No wonder the cattle are taken to feed lots to be fattened up.  It seemed like a crazy way to use the land.

[Katy]

My concerns are:

 

-water consumption

-contamination of waterways and runoff leading to things like E. coli in spinach fields.

 

E coli is only a concern when cattle are fed corn.

 

Water is consumed but not used up, it just gets recycled through the ecosystem endlessly.

 

It was a revelation to me to tour a Texas ranch - we did the 40-minute short tour.  The cattle were few and far between, and the grazing was largely unsuited to cows.  I suspected that bison would have done much better on it, but I don't know.  No wonder the cattle are taken to feed lots to be fattened up.  It seemed like a crazy way to use the land.

 

I grew up in Florida where there are very few "prairies" but the land can still sustain wild, grassfed cattle. They do taste stronger when lean and grassfed, though.

[Aelwydd]

Water consumption goes hand in hand with not overgrazing. Generally, if there's not enough water, there's not enough grass, and vice versa.

 

The E.Coli problems with feed lot cattle are a direct result of feeding them things they're not meant to eat. It turns their stomachs into E.Coli breeding grounds. This is then compounded by keeping them heavily concentrated.

 

Manure made from grass fed cow manure is not such a problem, though the best thing for it to fertilize is the grass.

 

Sure, but doing the math, there is not enough grassland to feed all 90 million head of cattle, even if we included all of North America. Feedlots are the (sloppy) solution to that physical limitation. Thus, our current dilemma with water consumption, contamination, and other secondary problems such as soil erosion and chemical contamination of water due to the monoculture farming that is used in part to support feedlots. Oh, and the rise of antibiotic-resistance, that's another very serious consequence of Big Ag, or really any animal farming that involves feeding animals antibiotics regularly.

 

Honestly, I see no other solution to the mounting issues of resource depletion and environmental destruction besides reducing meat consumption. (Or, reducing the numbers of humans, and I don't want to go there.)

 

As I stated earlier in the thread, this is already happening, not because vegetarianism or veganism are increasing, but because meat eaters are consuming less meat. I'm not sure if the reasons for that are economic or health-based or something entirely different.

[Aelwydd]

Also, regarding my comment about eating lamb that a few posters have quoted: cuteness has nothing to do with my aversion to lamb (or sheep, for that matter). I tried it once in a curry and it made me want to puke. It tasted and smelled awful.

 

Most animal flesh has that effect on me now though. I can eat fish, but pork and chicken turn my stomach.

[fairfarmhand]

Sure, but doing the math, there is not enough grassland to feed all 90 million head of cattle, even if we included all of North America. Feedlots are the (sloppy) solution to that physical limitation. Thus, our current dilemma with water consumption, contamination, and other secondary problems such as soil erosion and chemical contamination of water due to the monoculture farming that is used in part to support feedlots. Oh, and the rise of antibiotic-resistance, that's another very serious consequence of Big Ag, or really any animal farming that involves feeding animals antibiotics regularly.

 

Honestly, I see no other solution to the mounting issues of resource depletion and environmental destruction besides reducing meat consumption. (Or, reducing the numbers of humans, and I don't want to go there.)

 

As I stated earlier in the thread, this is already happening, not because vegetarianism or veganism are increasing, but because meat eaters are consuming less meat. I'm not sure if the reasons for that are economic or health-based or something entirely different.

 

Reducing is an excellent idea for everyone. What I hear often though, is "If everyone were vegetarian/vegan, then environmental problems would be solved" which is not really true.

 

I think people are starting to become more conscious of what a real meat serving looks like. Also, I think the rising price of beef is helping people learn other sources of protein can be adequate. (like mixing ground beef with refried beans in tacos, and similar)

[ScoutTN]

We eat less meat because we have prioritized buying from local bio-diverse farms and that, of course, is expensive. We have visited several and  been very impressed with how carefully they manage everything. Only one that we buy from is certified organic and we just get our Thanksgiving turkey from them (because they guarantee certain size/weight ranges when we order).

[Aelwydd]

What I hear often though, is "If everyone were vegetarian/vegan, then environmental problems would be solved" which is not really true.

 

Well, I haven't made that argument here at all. I was pretty up front with my criticism of the film, even though I'm practically a vegetarian, myself, and married to another vegetarian. I stated early on that I don't try to convert anyone, and that includes my own child. He still eats meat and I support his right to his own conscience on the matter.

 

If you read my early posts on this thread, my biggest objection to big ag is it's treatment of people.

 

So, I feel I am not coming from any kind of extreme here. I just think that one can acknowledge the environmental and health threats involved with the way most meat is produced without having to be consigned to a marginal position.

 

Honestly, I feel that most meat options should actually come from the small farming and independent ranching sector. That would mean steeper prices, but a much healthier, nutrient-dense, and better tasting product, as well as being better environmentally.

[MercyA]

Since then I haven't done the math, but I have somewhat dismissed it because the source is always some animal rights group that boils down to PETA.  No, I don't think animals should have equal rights to humans.  I never will.

 

I think it's a mistake to assume everyone who is concerned with animal rights has some sort of link to PETA. Some animal welfare groups have thankfully turned against PETA for their inconsistency and hypocrisy.  While advocating that no animals be killed for food or clothing, they themselves killed 96% of the cats and 77% of the dogs in their shelter in 2014.  :(

 

One doesn't have to believe in equal rights for animals to believe that they should be treated humanely and with respect. As a Christian, I believe "a righteous man has regard for the life of his animal" (Proverbs 12:10).  There's a whole lot of unrighteous cruelty going on right now.  

 

Mergath, thanks for this thread. It's been a good kick in the pants for me.  I used to be vegan except for eggs. Being a vegetarian is difficult for me now, because my medically necessary low-oxalate, low-histamine diet restricts nuts, beans, eggs, soy, and dairy. However, I think I can cut down to one serving of meat or poultry a day if I add some rice protein to my diet.  I don't think it has to be all or nothing. 

[JeanM]

E coli is only a concern when cattle are fed corn.

 

Water is consumed but not used up, it just gets recycled through the ecosystem endlessly.

 

 

I grew up in Florida where there are very few "prairies" but the land can still sustain wild, grassfed cattle. They do taste stronger when lean and grassfed, though.

 

Actually they've shown that e. coli are found in grass-fed cattle as well as corn fed cattle. I'm not promoting feeding cattle corn, but just trying to correct facts.

 

[Katy]

Actually they've shown that e. coli are found in grass-fed cattle as well as corn fed cattle. I'm not promoting feeding cattle corn, but just trying to correct facts.

 

 

Interesting.  I've only seen that it's upwards of 80% higher in feed lot cattle.  Do you have a link?

[fairfarmhand]

Well, I haven't made that argument here at all. I was pretty up front with my criticism of the film, even though I'm practically a vegetarian, myself, and married to another vegetarian. I stated early on that I don't try to convert anyone, and that includes my own child. He still eats meat and I support his right to his own conscience on the matter.

 

If you read my early posts on this thread, my biggest objection to big ag is it's treatment of people.

 

So, I feel I am not coming from any kind of extreme here. I just think that one can acknowledge the environmental and health threats involved with the way most meat is produced without having to be consigned to a marginal position.

 

Honestly, I feel that most meat options should actually come from the small farming and independent ranching sector. That would mean steeper prices, but a much healthier, nutrient-dense, and better tasting product, as well as being better environmentally.

 

Not specifically from anyone else here on these boards.

 

Sorry. Didn't mean to imply that.

 

[JumpyTheFrog]

How were they raising cattle in the 1950s? This report says that the number of cattle in the US is actually way down from what it used to be. I'll see if I can find some more numbers.

 

http://agebb.missouri.edu/mkt/bull12c.htm

 

 

Total Inventory. The total number of cattle and calves in the U.S. on January 1, 2015, was 89.8 million head, up 1.4% from 2014, but 7.0% lower than at the last cyclical peak in 2007. This is the second smallest January cattle inventory since 1952.

[JumpyTheFrog]

Here's some more data I found:

 

http://www.indexmundi.com/agriculture/?country=us&commodity=cattle&graph=total-slaughter

Total cattle slaughtered peaked 40 years ago. (Of course, this doesn't account for dairy cows not slaughtered.)

 

http://www.epa.gov/agriculture/ag101/printbeef.html

Total cattle in 1975 was about 140 million, or about 50% higher than today.

 

 

[JumpyTheFrog]

It appears that rather than an increase, there has actually been quite a decrease of beef and/or dairy products in the US over the last 40 years, despite an increase in population from 216 million to 325 million. (I am ignoring any changes in the export of cow products because I didn't look that up.)

[Ausmumof3]

Interesting. I've only seen that it's upwards of 80% higher in feed lot cattle. Do you have a link?

E. coli live in the gut of many animals and are part of healthy gut flora. It's only certain strains that are harmful. I guess if eating bad food potentially messes with people's gut flora it makes sense that it would with cows too. It is only a problem if the meat isn't processed carefully.

 

As far as washing down stream I imagine if you get rid of the cows other species of animals will move in that can also carry the bacteria in the gut.

[Aelwydd]

Not specifically from anyone else here on these boards.

 

Sorry. Didn't mean to imply that.

 

Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying!

[Aelwydd]

Here's some more data I found:

 

http://www.indexmundi.com/agriculture/?country=us&commodity=cattle&graph=total-slaughter

Total cattle slaughtered peaked 40 years ago. (Of course, this doesn't account for dairy cows not slaughtered.)

 

http://www.epa.gov/agriculture/ag101/printbeef.html

Total cattle in 1975 was about 140 million, or about 50% higher than today.

You know what, that epic drought in Texas in 2012 reduced many herds. If the projections regarding the desertification of the Western U.S. over the next 50 to 75 years are accurate, then we have a lot more than animal agriculture under threat.

 

 

ETA: the reference for the aforementioned desertification of most of the US.

[JumpyTheFrog]

Well, the largest decrease was from the mid-70s to about 1990. Was drought a big problem then like it is now?

[Aelwydd]

Looks like drought has been an ongoing (and worsening?) issue.  This is in conjunction with increasing feed and forage prices, which drought may also have contributed to.  The article below claims that the reduction in cattle head has been accelerating since 2007, with 1.9 million fewer cattle since then.

 

http://farmdocdaily.illinois.edu/2013/02/where-have-all-the-beef-cows-gone.html

 

 

This 2005 article (it's a PDF) cites drought as one of the causes of declining numbers of cattle in the 1970's:

"The 1970s cattle cycle was affected by President Nixon's beef price freezes, oil price shocks, drought, and unusually high grain prices."

 

The cached link is here.

 

 

 

This article mentions the ongoing depletion of the Ogallalla aquifer that has been going on since the 1970's.

 

 

An article on California's drought mentions the "terrible" drought of the late 1970's in comparison with the current drought.

 

An article on Texas' drought history mentions significant droughts in the 1950's, 1980's, and 1990's. 

 

 

I'm not a rancher or a farmer, so maybe someone here who is can chime in with their experience. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

Speaking of conspiracies, I was pretty much absent from the whole "soy controversy" due to juggling five part time minimum wage jobs during the third trimester of my pregnancy and hoping my troubled teens survived the next week, but I started poking around last night after WTFing at the ghost town this is the soy subforum of my menopause board.

 

I found these:

 

 

http://www.vegsource.com/news/2010/07/the-truth-about-the-weston-price-foundation.html

 

http://www.vegsource.com/news/2009/11/reflections-on-the-weston-a-price-foundation.html

 

http://unreasonable.org/node/1642?page=2

 

http://zenhabits.net/soy/

 

http://freefromharm.org/health-nutrition/vegan-doctor-addresses-soy-myths-and-misinformation/

 

freefromharm.org/health-nutrition/vegan-doctor-addresses-soy-myths-and-misinformation/

 

http://jacknorrisrd.com/response-to-not-soy-fast/

 

http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/soy_wth

 

and decided that expressing unpopular opinions on the WTM board isn't exactly something I am inexperienced with anyway, although I do question my ability to respond IRL to, "Have you ever heard of Weston A. Price?" with annoyed tolerance and extreme boredom ever again.

 

I just thought you should know.

 

Off to the kitchen to try a new recipe:

 

http://www.motherearthnews.com/real-food/how-to-make-soymilk-zmaz77zbon.aspx

 

Peace out.

[Roadrunner]

According to many eating insects is the answer.

 

 

If you are a diabetic, you can't eat carbs, which means grains, quinoa, buckwheat, beans, fruit along with a big chunk of vegetables is out. Meat and green leafy veggies are really what you are left with along with some fats. Vegan, vegetarian isn't an answer for everybody.

[FaithManor]

I don't absorb iron as well from plant sources as I do from beef and am chronically anemic, blood does not clot well because in addition I do not absorb potassium

 

But, I have been eating less beef by adding chromium to my supplements, and eating just a ridiculous amount of beans. I am allergic to wheat - bad enough now that I keep benadryl with me when I eat away from home - which significantly reduces available, commercial food sources. Plus, grains in general are a bad idea due to my mother, all her siblings, and my brother being type 2. I even limit fruit to citrus and green apples. Eating like this keeps my blood sugar numbers beautiful and so far have been able to subvert my DNA.

 

That said, we have reduced our beef consumption as a family by substituting with two venison per year, more fish, more nuts...the other family members are doing well on this. We are under 100 lbs. of beef consumption per year for our family of five.

 

Sigh...since I don't think the answer is elimination because many people would not do well, but reduction...Americans eat beef in much too large serving sizes. Moderation is a good thing.

[Carol in Cal.]

After the above article about California was written, we had another year of horrendous drought.  And now we are hoping that the El Nino will develop into good, replenishing rains but not horrendous flooding and mudslides.

 

There are a lot of dead and very stressed trees throughout the state that would be extremely vulnerable to high winds and soft soil.  Even if we get a high rain year, we are going to be in crisis here.  

 

My advice to everyone who doesn't live here is to plant your own fruit trees and if possible put in a veggie garden because we are not going to be able to continue to provide fruits and veggies for the whole country at cheap prices forever.  

 

Regarding grazing cattle on 'marginal' lands, sometimes that does work well, but I resent the cattle grazing in the high Sierras in my state.  It has infected virtually all of the formerly pristine mountain streams with gaurdia, and with very little economic benefit there, since the carrying capacity of our mountains is so limited.  The only reason anyone does it is because use of the national lands for cattle grazing is so cheap as to be almost free, and I don't think it should be that way.