Weight loss - some honest data to consider

[displace]

Just to mention to those who don't know re: WW. It is not strictly a CICO diet. The basic principles are there but they change their program every few years. Last I heard it was all you can eat fruits and most veges, with their point system counting toward all other foods. IOW, you could eat fruits and most veges 24/7 without using up your points (theoretically), which isn't very CICO abiding. I'm sure they mention to eat until satiated which is very different for each individual. The points system they use for all other foods is also not strict CI, but based on their formula, which is different than actual CI (foods with more fiber and less fat are fewer points, for ex).

 

Also WW had changed a lot over the years. An older program frequently had points assigned similarly for a banana and a small serving of cookies.

[Carol in Cal.]

Re. WW--I'm doing WW online right now.  Kind of intermittently.

 

They encourage--

-- paying attention to hunger signals, and stopping eating when you're not hungry. 

--drinking lots of fluids, especially water

--a multivitamin daily

--exercise (they give calorie credits for exercise, so you enter it and it buys you points to use for food sometime that week)

--dairy (2-3 servings/day)

--fruit and veggies (no points deducted for those if eaten more or less as nature gives them (not in a recipe, more plain), 5-9 servings per day encouraged)

--a minimum number of points, so you can't drop below a certain number of them per day no matter how fat or thin you are (to avoid the starvation setpoint adjustment, I think)

--tracking all your food

--healthy oils (I never get this one)

 

It's pretty comprehensive but it's not for everybody.

My impression is that it favors protein foods over carb ones in the assigned points values.  IOW, I get fuller on 2 points worth of cheese than 2 points worth of crackers, which kind of encourages the cheese relative to the wheat thins.

 

To the extent that it works for me, I think it is mostly because it gives me the kind of repeated gratification that keeps me on track--entering the data, watching the points, checking the weight graph, etc.  The fast feedback is really valuable.  Also, I have learned a lot from it about my own habits.  For instance, I used to drink so much milk that it was probably more than half the points I was assigned per day.  I vaguely figured that since it was nonfat and no sugar added that it was a free for all, and I'm a naturally very thirsty person, so I drank a LOT.  My other big learns were that my miniscule little breakfast (I thought) was actually quite unhealthy AND high in points, despite not staying with me at all, and also that I mini-binge more so than I realized.  What I mean by that is that aside from the breakfast and excessive milk, which were relatively easy to fix, I also took more or less a 'no holds barred' approach to potlucks or eating out.  I knew I did that, but I didn't really understand the extent of it until I started to enter those miniquiches and the chips and dip into the WW online program and really saw how extreme those excursions were.  Good stuff to learn!

[Pawz4me]

Worset to me is the assumption that obese people lack will power. Many of the obese people I know are the toughest, hardest, strongest people I know. My grandmother was obese her whole life. That women was tough as nails. She raised 6 children (5 boys in 3 years no less!), worked part time as a security guard of all things, etc. She was no wimp, and never shirked away from something difficult. If willpower could have made her thin she would have been thin. 

 

 

Maybe she just never chose to apply her willpower to this.

 

Yes.

 

I'm famous in our family (both sides) for being stubborn and willful about things that matter to me and in general being one tough cookie when necessary.  That did me not one whit of good in the weight department for 25 years.  And then one day I woke up and decided I was sick of the cognitive dissonance --- fed up with telling everyone I was so healthy (which I was), but . . . .there's really something uniquely wrong with me that I can't lose weight.  That morning I decided I wanted to be a normal weight person and be able to stop making excuses for being fat.  And I focused all my willpower and stubbornness on that until I succeeded.  After my co-workers started noticing I was losing weight I got asked all the time how I was doing it.  And the first few times that question threw me.  And then it hit me that the only right and true answer was . . . . stubbornness.  I think most of them never really understood what I meant by that!

 

And before anyone rushes to get all defensive about that -- Please note that I'm not knocking anyone who isn't so stubborn.  Quite the opposite.  I'm commiserating.  At least for me it really did take an absolutely tremendous amount of stubbornness.  Or willpower or whatever you want to call it.  Losing weight was the second hardest thing I've ever done.

[Greta]

Yes, it has exactly the same effect. All dairy I buy is added hormone free. There are still tons of hormones naturally in dairy. Plus, pretty much only Northern European populations evolved to rely on dairy as a survival food. Native Americans did not consume dairy and their health went immediately down hill when they started to switch from a vegetable and game meat to european style diet.

From what little bit I've read about it, I also was under the impression that it's simply a naturally-occuring hormone in milk, so it will be there whether it's organic or not. But for those whose ancestors did consume dairy, and who don't have insulin problems, it's probably not an issue at all.

 

I am curious, Katy, do you know if significant amounts of IGF make it into fermented dairy products such as yogurt, cheese, etc.? I'm guessing it probably does, but hoping it doesn't! :lol: I don't drink milk, but I do get a significant amount of dairy, mostly in the form of cheese, creme fraiche, and butter -- oh, plus a little heavy cream in my coffee every morning. I guess it adds up to a LOT of dairy. Twice in my adult life I have given up dairy. Neither time did I feel like I really got any health benefits from doing so, so I added it back. But I must admit, both times I lost weight, even though I wasn't really trying to. Once I was on a high-carb semi-vegetarian diet, the other time I was on a heavily meat Paleo type diet, and both times I dropped about six pounds. So it probably is worth considering, for losing the weight that I recently gained due to my hormone issues. But the thought of giving it up makes me want to cry! I've already given up so many foods. (Poor me, whine, whine, whine.)

 

I am mostly white- blonde hair, blue eyes, but I think my genetics from my dad's side that relate to diabetes are pretty strongly native american because I can track MODY through my great grandparents and I know their ancestry.

Genetics are a funny thing. You're Native American with blond hair and blue eyes, I'm western European with such dark hair and eyes (but fair skin) that people are always asking me what race I am, because they can't figure me out. :lol: You'd never know to look at me that I have a red-haired, blue-eyed Irish daddy. The dark hair and eyes are what people notice first. But I do have that burns-doesn't-tan, freckle-prone, cancer-prone, super fair skin, so that's nifty! :lol:

 

I do have a family history of type II, but don't have any particular reason to believe it's MODY.

[ktgrok]

Maybe she just never chose to apply her willpower to this.

 

 

 

Um, no. Every single time we visited she was dieting, trying to lose weight. She tried low fat, pritikin, atkins, weight watchers, etc etc etc. Saw a nutritionist many times. cooked everything from scratch. (and was a good cook). She absolutely wanted to lose weight. And that people would look at her, or me, and assume we aren't trying hurts. 

[Guest]

Yes.

 

I'm famous in our family (both sides) for being stubborn and willful about things that matter to me and in general being one tough cookie when necessary. That did me not one whit of good in the weight department for 25 years. And then one day I woke up and decided I was sick of the cognitive dissonance --- fed up with telling everyone I was so healthy (which I was), but . . . .there's really something uniquely wrong with me that I can't lose weight. That morning I decided I wanted to be a normal weight person and be able to stop making excuses for being fat. And I focused all my willpower and stubbornness on that until I succeeded. After my co-workers started noticing I was losing weight I got asked all the time how I was doing it. And the first few times that question threw me. And then it hit me that the only right and true answer was . . . . stubbornness. I think most of them never really understood what I meant by that!

 

And before anyone rushes to get all defensive about that -- Please note that I'm not knocking anyone who isn't so stubborn. Quite the opposite. I'm commiserating. At least for me it really did take an absolutely tremendous amount of stubbornness. Or willpower or whatever you want to call it. Losing weight was the second hardest thing I've ever done.

You might be trying to commiserate but it really sounds like you just told all overweight people that all they need is to find "willpower" like you did and they will lose weight.

[Katy]

Re. WW--I'm doing WW online right now.  Kind of intermittently.

 

They encourage--

-- paying attention to hunger signals, and stopping eating when you're not hungry. 

--drinking lots of fluids, especially water

--a multivitamin daily

--exercise (they give calorie credits for exercise, so you enter it and it buys you points to use for food sometime that week)

--dairy (2-3 servings/day)

--fruit and veggies (no points deducted for those if eaten more or less as nature gives them (not in a recipe, more plain), 5-9 servings per day encouraged)

--a minimum number of points, so you can't drop below a certain number of them per day no matter how fat or thin you are (to avoid the starvation setpoint adjustment, I think)

--tracking all your food

--healthy oils (I never get this one)

 

It's pretty comprehensive but it's not for everybody.

My impression is that it favors protein foods over carb ones in the assigned points values.  IOW, I get fuller on 2 points worth of cheese than 2 points worth of crackers.

 

I never had any luck on WW.  I think it's okay if you don't have blood sugar or insulin issues, but this advice doesn't work well for many people.  If you have insulin resistance your cells can be starving and screaming for food while you simultaneously have high blood sugar.  The insulin doesn't get the food into the cells so you feel like you are starving even if you've eaten twice as much as you should.  Cells are still hungry, but the energy can't get to them. Literally I have realized that unless I have symptoms of low blood sugar (shaking, impending sense of doom), I cannot go by hunger to judge whether I need food or not.  Usually if I wake up hungry in the morning my fasting number is above 180.  Plenty of food, but it can't get it.  It is one of the most misleading things about blood sugar issues.  Your brain is screaming you need food.  You're not overeating, you're just obeying the instinct that if you don't eat you're going to die. Many people with blood sugar issues are almost constantly hungry.  Their energy is all going directly into their fat cells and their muscles and organs don't have enough energy.  Also, it's been a while since I tried WW, but every time I have the recipes they push are whole grain, high carb, lower fat monstrosities full of processed food and portion control that raises blood sugars and made me more hungry.  Literally I can eat twice as many calories and lose weight when I have the macronutrient balances right as when I am starving myself on grains.

 

From what little bit I've read about it, I also was under the impression that it's simply a naturally-occuring hormone in milk, so it will be there whether it's organic or not. But for those whose ancestors did consume dairy, and who don't have insulin problems, it's probably not an issue at all.

 

I am curious, Katy, do you know if significant amounts of IGF make it into fermented dairy products such as yogurt, cheese, etc.? I'm guessing it probably does, but hoping it doesn't! :lol: I don't drink milk, but I do get a significant amount of dairy, mostly in the form of cheese, creme fraiche, and butter -- oh, plus a little heavy cream in my coffee every morning. I guess it adds up to a LOT of dairy. Twice in my adult life I have given up dairy. Neither time did I feel like I really got any health benefits from doing so, so I added it back. But I must admit, both times I lost weight, even though I wasn't really trying to. Once I was on a high-carb semi-vegetarian diet, the other time I was on a heavily meat Paleo type diet, and both times I dropped about six pounds. So it probably is worth considering, for losing the weight that I recently gained due to my hormone issues. But the thought of giving it up makes me want to cry! I've already given up so many foods. (Poor me, whine, whine, whine.)

 

Genetics are a funny thing. You're Native American with blond hair and blue eyes, I'm western European with such dark hair and eyes (but fair skin) that people are always asking me what race I am, because they can't figure me out. :lol: You'd never know to look at me that I have a red-haired, blue-eyed Irish daddy. The dark hair and eyes are what people notice first. But I do have that burns-doesn't-tan, freckle-prone, cancer-prone, super fair skin, so that's nifty! :lol:

 

I do have a family history of type II, but don't have any particular reason to believe it's MODY.

 

I haven't researched that, but from the results of my blood sugar when I have fermented products (even fat free ones to block the action of the saturated fat), it's still terrible for blood sugar.

[Julie Smith]

It would still be designed to put weight on a calf quickly. It's somthing intrinsic to milk, not something added by the farmer or given to the lactating cow. 

 

A long time ago I remember seeing a comic. It basically said cow milk is perfect if you are (like a calf) planning to triple in weight in the next year. 

[Pawz4me]

You might be trying to commiserate but it really sounds like you just told all overweight people that all they need is to find "willpower" like you did and they will lose weight.

 

I don't know how to be any more clear that that's absolutely not what I'm doing.

 

I can't help it if someone wants to ignore that assertion.

 

I have repeatedly stated that I'm only recounting my own experience.

[creekland]

My great-grandmother is a towering figure in our family even though she died long before I was born.  She passed away at 62, had a heart attack while she was writing a letter, and fell over and died.  She was also really, really big, in a big and strong kind of way, at least judging from her pictures.  She was strong and strongminded and tough and totally loving.  I want to be like her, but live for at least 20 years longer.  That's why I'm paying more attention to these issues now that I know more about them.

 

My parents and their siblings are all in the quite obese range - well past XL (many are mulitple Xs, not just 2).  Being a generation older than I am I've seen the health issues they've had and are having.  I love them all.  None really want to lose weight and that's their decision IMO.  I don't love them less, but I do worry about their health.

 

My mom kept giving me her clothes as she outgrew them.  I'd protest saying they were too big for me.  Then... they weren't.  More than once.  I definitely was following her path.  It's in my genetics to gain, after all.  

 

But... back in Jan/Feb I realized I've had enough non-diet dependent health issues to meet my quota and don't want to add more.  At that point, I started paying attention to what I was eating and started changing it.  No regrets.  As of this morning I'm down 25 - 26 lbs from my highest point - hardly anything compared to some.  Ideally I'll get down another 30 - 40.  Still not much compared to some.

 

Again, I thank those who have shared ideas that have worked for them.  At this point, more veggies and less non-veggie starches have worked for me - along with simply eating far, far less than I used to (made easier for me by no hunger pains) - and far less cheating with sodas, milkshakes, ice cream, and even cute little 88 cent Walmart blueberry pies (so easy to pick one or two up when I shopped - a nice treat... or not).  Naturally, that's probably not the solution that will work for everyone, but if one is just starting (due to reading this thread or something), it's worth a try.

 

I don't think my exercise has increased TBH.  With a few exceptions, I'm normally as active as I am now - and that's not much in comparison to others on this thread as I don't run and (health issue wise) don't feel it would be good to do anything causing high intensity.  It is, however, fairly active without much "still" time.  Even my times on the computer (here or elsewhere) are interspersed by getting up and doing things (farm, critter, house, or school).  If they weren't, those health issues would remind me I need to be doing it!

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

No, I am really not. Calories in/calories out and eat less/move more was and continues to be the cultural standard for weight loss advice. I don't need to "be open to it."

 

Sure, could I literallly starve my body and lose weight? Of course.

I do agree with you that once you are obese it is not so simple as calories in/calories out because of factors such as high insulin levels which causes extreme hunger or perhaps messed up intestinal bacteria or a plethora of other problems. I also totally agree that it is not laziness or sloth that keeps people fat at all. I know. I struggle with obesity.

 

 

OTOH I do think calories in/ calories out with movement and being mindful of the type of calories such as sugar and processed carbs can help prevent obesity hopefully. My kid is at risk of obesity because both of his parents are obese. So I usually do not serve desert everyday and offer fruits and veggies when he wants seconds on most occasions. We also try to foster exercise. I think prevention is critical because once you become obese it is almost impossible to lose weight as it stands now since there are no really effective treatments yet.

[Joanne]

Um, no. Every single time we visited she was dieting, trying to lose weight. She tried low fat, pritikin, atkins, weight watchers, etc etc etc. Saw a nutritionist many times. cooked everything from scratch. (and was a good cook). She absolutely wanted to lose weight. And that people would look at her, or me, and assume we aren't trying hurts. 

 

This is what is frustrating me in this thread - but this thread simply represents the cultural collective about being fat.

 

I am not mis-placing, under utilizing, or not applying my will power.

 

Will power does not touch my obesity. It no more touches my obesity than my will power would touch cancer.

 

I know I *could* lose weight if I adopt an EXTREME (and unhealthy) reduction in both carbs and calories. Or surgery, which would still utilize extreme reduction. Or Hcg, which, again, would need to be coupled with extreme and unhealthy reduction. The need to do that is the pathology - something is wrong that I can't lose weight on our heralded paths of WW or paleo or low carb.

 

It's ok that "people" don't see how CICO is tied to the fat/lazy assumption. I'll keep talking about it because the existence of fat shaming needs to be outed.

[Carol in Cal.]

Um, no. Every single time we visited she was dieting, trying to lose weight. She tried low fat, pritikin, atkins, weight watchers, etc etc etc. Saw a nutritionist many times. cooked everything from scratch. (and was a good cook). She absolutely wanted to lose weight. And that people would look at her, or me, and assume we aren't trying hurts. 

Yup.

That happens, for sure.

I have a BIL whose aunt is like that, and he characterizes her as 'She struggles with her weight.'  I find it embarrassing to try and fail, so I never tell anyone IRL when I start to diet.  I just don't talk about it at all.  It's between me and my imaginary friends online, and that's it, because I wouldn't want people to characterize me as a failure or weak.  They probably still do, but at least I'm not talking about it so I'm not hearing it directly from them.

[Carol in Cal.]

You might be trying to commiserate but it really sounds like you just told all overweight people that all they need is to find "willpower" like you did and they will lose weight.

This is really unfair.  She specifically stipulated that she wasn't doing this.  You're projecting your own stuff onto her despite her assertions to the contrary.

[creekland]

 If you have insulin resistance your cells can be starving and screaming for food while you simultaneously have high blood sugar.  The insulin doesn't get the food into the cells so you feel like you are starving even if you've eaten twice as much as you should.  Cells are still hungry, but the energy can't get to them. Literally I have realized that unless I have symptoms of low blood sugar (shaking, impending sense of doom), I cannot go by hunger to judge whether I need food or not.  Usually if I wake up hungry in the morning my fasting number is above 180.  Plenty of food, but it can't get it.  It is one of the most misleading things about blood sugar issues.  Your brain is screaming you need food.  You're not overeating, you're just obeying the instinct that if you don't eat you're going to die. Many people with blood sugar issues are almost constantly hungry.  Their energy is all going directly into their fat cells and their muscles and organs don't have enough energy. 

 

I think you just described my relatives.  I appreciate the explanation for why they say they are always hungry and always snacking - then the big meals, etc.

 

It also makes me super glad I lost the "feeling hungry" mode the brain has - and really sympathetic for the rest of you who are dealing with it.

 

All I've had to change are the other eating cues - including the "everyone is doing it" one.  That, to me, is comparatively easy.

[Carol in Cal.]

I never had any luck on WW.  ...   Also, it's been a while since I tried WW, but every time I have the recipes they push are whole grain, high carb, lower fat monstrosities full of processed food and portion control that raises blood sugars and made me more hungry.  Literally I can eat twice as many calories and lose weight when I have the macronutrient balances right as when I am starving myself on grains.

 

It's not for everyone, for sure--I think I said that more than once.

 

But FWIW, the version they have now pushes protein foods ahead of grain-based ones, and isn't remotely low fat.  My husband has blood sugar control issues and the diet that WW pushes is pretty similar to what works for him.  They seem to shift with the science somewhat.  YMMV of course.

[Carol in Cal.]

 

 

It's ok that "people" don't see how CICO is tied to the fat/lazy assumption. I'll keep talking about it because the existence of fat shaming needs to be outed.

You're kind of preaching to the choir here though.  No one on this thread is fat shaming.  No one is saying that CICO can't be tied to 'fat/lazy assumptions'--just that it doesn't have to be, that there are other useful ways to look at it.

[creekland]

Yup.

That happens, for sure.

I have a BIL whose aunt is like that, and he characterizes her as 'She struggles with her weight.'  I find it embarrassing to try and fail, so I never tell anyone IRL when I start to diet.  I just don't talk about it at all.  It's between me and my imaginary friends online, and that's it, because I wouldn't want people to characterize me as a failure or weak.  They probably still do, but at least I'm not talking about it so I'm not hearing it directly from them.

 

Thank you - and I don't see you as a failure or weak...

[Greta]

At least for me it really did take an absolutely tremendous amount of stubbornness. Or willpower or whatever you want to call it. Losing weight was the second hardest thing I've ever done.

Just wanted to say that I have a tremendous amount of respect for that. For me, for most of my life, losing/maintaining weight has been easy, almost effortless. Now that it isn't easy anymore, I'm flailing.

 

I have a lot of respect for people like you who worked hard and got results. I have just as much respect for those who have worked hard and not gotten results.

 

It isn't fair, but it is reality. Some don't have to work at all. Some do the work and get the benefits. Some do the work and get nothing in return. (That's why I don't think CICO is the be-all, end-all answer, though I know that it truly does work for some.)

[Pawz4me]

Yup.

That happens, for sure.

I have a BIL whose aunt is like that, and he characterizes her as 'She struggles with her weight.'  I find it embarrassing to try and fail, so I never tell anyone IRL when I start to diet.  I just don't talk about it at all.  It's between me and my imaginary friends online, and that's it, because I wouldn't want people to characterize me as a failure or weak.  They probably still do, but at least I'm not talking about it so I'm not hearing it directly from them.

 

I don't either.

 

Even DH doesn't know I'm trying like crazy to drop the weight I gained when my thyroid went wonky.

 

I don't even usually go into the weight loss/support threads here.  I don't know why I've done it in these recent ones.

 

[Pawz4me]

Just wanted to say that I have a tremendous amount of respect for that. For me, for most of my life, losing/maintaining weight has been easy, almost effortless. Now that it isn't easy anymore, I'm flailing.

 

I have a lot of respect for people like you who worked hard and got results. I have just as much respect for those who have worked hard and not gotten results.

 

It isn't fair, but it is reality. Some don't have to work at all. Some do the work and get the benefits. Some do the work and get nothing in return. (That's why I don't think CICO is the be-all, end-all answer, though I know that it truly does work for some.)

 

Thank you.

 

And to help put it in perspective for anyone who doubts what I'm saying or doubts me when I say I'm not judging anyone -- the hardest thing I ever did was make the decision to remove my mother from life support.  That's the only thing I've ever done in my life that I think was harder than losing weight.  And I'm not entirely positive it was harder.

[Catwoman]

Interesting, but obviously almost no one has 6 or more hours to exercise a day. There was an article somewhere saying that you could avoid weight loss surgery if you exercised 4 hours a day and ate a starvation level diet, and all I could think was...well yeah, but who can do that?

:iagree:

 

Not just "who CAN do that," but "who would WANT to do that?" I can't speak from personal experience but I would think I would much prefer to be overweight than to live with the incredible crushing pressure of knowing I had to live the rest of my life on a starvation diet and that I would have to exercise for 4 hours a day. That would be misery for anyone. :(

[LucyStoner]

Joanne, Just to add another data point to this discussion. The only morbidly obese people (400+lbs) I personally have ever met that have lost and kept off 200+lbs did it through exercise. And I mean a LOT of exercise. One man walked 3 hours to work every day and 3 hours home. The other was a shift worker and after his shift he walked between 20 and 24 miles a day. Both of these men had to do this for 1.5 YEARS to get all the weight off. I'm not sure if this is how they reset their metabolism, or what. And clearly it is *extreme*, but they are the only successful outcomes for the morbidly obese that I know of. Each has kept the weight off at this point for more than 8 years.

 

Ruth in NZ

I have a friend who lost 160 pounds (and he's short) walking the stairs at our office for a couple of hours before and after work. He did that until he could start biking to and from work. But kept walking the stairs at least an hour a day. He's kept it all off for 15 years now, still works in the same building, still walks the same stairs.

[Joanne]

This is really unfair. She specifically stipulated that she wasn't doing this. You're projecting your own stuff onto her despite her assertions to the contrary.

The posts earlier that specifically say she "used to believe" that and how "now she is honest" support the reaction.

 

She, more than once, posted that content.

[Pawz4me]

The posts earlier that specifically say she "used to believe" that and how "now she is honest" support the reaction.

 

She, more than once, posted that content.

 

Yes.  About myself.

 

I'm sorry you can't "see" or "hear" that.

[Joanne]

Yes. About myself.

 

I'm sorry you can't "see" or "hear" that.

That is not "sorry." It is ok that you stand by your content and the tone. I stand by my reaction.

 

I would rather not have that "I'm sorry."

 

I am glad that you have found something that is working to increase your health.

[Pawz4me]

That is not "sorry." It is ok that you stand by your content and the tone. I stand by my reaction.

 

I would rather not have that "I'm sorry."

 

I am glad that you have found something that is working to increase your health.

 

I really don't even understand what that post means.

 

Perhaps you should have made this a "JAWM" thread?  Because that's certainly what you seem to want.  You don't seem to be open to any serious discussion or to a sharing of opinions that in any way don't agree with your own.

 

If you want to change the title then I'll happily leave this thread.  Otherwise . . . no, I won't let you bully me into keeping silent about my own experiences.  There may be people reading who can benefit.

 

[Carol in Cal.]

The posts earlier that specifically say she "used to believe" that and how "now she is honest" support the reaction.

 

She, more than once, posted that content.

But she was talking about herself, not about others.

 

Joanne, you want everyone to take you at your word, which is reasonable, and I think that it is also reasonable to take others at theirs.  She posted very carefully, with caveats, about her own experience, specifically disclaiming judgment on anyone else's.  It was about as respectful as someone can be while sharing their success. 

[ktgrok]

Yup.

That happens, for sure.

I have a BIL whose aunt is like that, and he characterizes her as 'She struggles with her weight.'  I find it embarrassing to try and fail, so I never tell anyone IRL when I start to diet.  I just don't talk about it at all.  It's between me and my imaginary friends online, and that's it, because I wouldn't want people to characterize me as a failure or weak.  They probably still do, but at least I'm not talking about it so I'm not hearing it directly from them.

 

Yup, and by not telling anyone you are dieting they probably assume you just aren't even trying to lose weight, like people have said in this thread about others they know. 

[Carol in Cal.]

Yup, and by not telling anyone you are dieting they probably assume you just aren't even trying to lose weight, like people have said in this thread about others they know. 

Yes, and I prefer that.

It's nobody's business.

I would far rather be perceived as 'not trying' than as 'struggling'.  I'm not a victim and I don't care to be viewed as one by people around me.  I don't care to have them studying my body size and talking about it on any level--but especially to ME.  (I can't control gossip, but I can avoid fueling it.)

 

Besides, just in general, I don't want to be seen as my body or as my looks or as a whiner. I want to be seen as my character and accomplishments.  That's how I see others.

 

I have a friend who as a last resort went onto a physician-supervised liquid diet.  Her stated goal was to lose 60 lbs.  And honestly I had never noticed that she was even heavy.  She was such a great and accomplished person, and she had a beautiful face also. 

[Murphy101]

I was over 200 pounds. I've lost 60 and have more to go... Is my opinion acceptable? Did I lose enough to be able to comment?

 

How many of you feel about will power is how I feel about your comments. It sounds like conditioned helpless. It's just completely beyond us to lose this weight. We are powerless against it.

 

I refuse to accept that.

 

I don't think saying it takes determination or will power or whatever term you prefer is the same as blaming. It's an honest statement.

 

It is damn hard and it takes making a decision every single time we take a bite of food. And it just gets harder the less money and time you have.

 

It is HARD to make that choice every single day every single time we eat. I didn't do anything to deserve it or cause it. But here it is needing to be dealt with. And knowing that it will always be like this? That I will likely never ever be able to just forget about it and just eat whatever whenever? That's hard too. Very hard. Eating isn't just sustenance. It's comfort, community and memories. And now for me, it's medicinal, but not a cure. And just like insulin or heart medication, I can't just stop without redeveloping the problems again.

 

I have a relative who has been morbidly obese nearly her entire adult life and tried doing the same thing as me after seeing my results. She got the same results! Dropped to size she hadn't been in 30 years. Felt great. Dr was thrilled. Said if she kept it up, he didn't think she'd insulin after all bc her numbers were so improved. She gained it all back. I know she can do it. I know she will see results. I also know this is not *just* about a physical problem. I think she was scared to lose the weight. Fat insulates. It was a way for her to hide and a fixture of her identity. I am NOT saying is is true of everyone else or anyone here.

 

I'm just saying that yes, it does take determination. Because it is hard and requires a purposeful decision to do it anyways.

 

It also takes a lot of other things too.

 

It takes a supportive family.

It takes time.

It takes finances.

It takes patience.

It takes endurance.

It takes painful self-analysis.

It takes knowing what the impediments are for each person.

It takes knowing our weaknesses and over compensating for them. Maybe forever.

 

We are not weak or accusing anyone else of being weak by saying it's hard and takes a determined effort.

[Greta]

I haven't researched that, but from the results of my blood sugar when I have fermented products (even fat free ones to block the action of the saturated fat), it's still terrible for blood sugar.

I don't *think* that it messes up my blood sugar, though I'm going to run some experiments to be sure. When I first figured out I had hypoglycemia and I was testing a lot, I never saw any cause for alarm with dairy. But I think I'll test after a meal with dairy, and again after a meal with no dairy but very similar calories and macronutrient ratios just to be sure.

 

But I do wonder if the IGF causes more fat storage for me. That might explain why I have dropped weight when I've gone dairy free in the past. Then I have to ask myself if it's worth it. I do love my dairy.

[Joanne]

I really don't even understand what that post means.

 

Perhaps you should have made this a "JAWM" thread? Because that's certainly what you seem to want. You don't seem to be open to any serious discussion or to a sharing of opinions that in any way don't agree with your own.

 

If you want to change the title then I'll happily leave this thread. Otherwise . . . no, I won't let you bully me into keeping silent about my own experiences. There may be people reading who can benefit.

 

If you read the thread, there are many times when I engage with new, other, and even contrary ideas.

 

I never bullied or told you to leave or be quiet. I do, however, exercise my right to respond to your words as they read to me - which is exactly what you are doing to my words.

[creekland]

I would not skip the protein, since you are healing from radiation. Up to 2 lbs a week loss is considered safe for healthy people.

 

Eh, radiation was over a year ago March.  Granted, I still blame a bit of memory loss on it as it seems "better" than old age, but I don't think there's too much currently going on from it.

 

Everyone is surprised the side effect of lack of hunger has remained this long... but I definitely consider that a perk (esp now) and hope it never goes away.  I still get to hear my pulse pretty much all the time too (sigh).  I'd prefer if that one would go away, but noise can mask it.  At first they said that one was due to radiation, then they said it wasn't since it didn't go away, but nothing else has emerged as the cause, so... one win, one loss with remaining effects.  The pro is good enough I shouldn't complain about the con I suppose.

 

And I definitely feel the need to lose the extra weight while I still have the perk.  Who knows when/if it will go away?  One year, six months and counting... (seven if I count when it started, not just the end of rad.)

[Greta]

Thank you.

 

And to help put it in perspective for anyone who doubts what I'm saying or doubts me when I say I'm not judging anyone -- the hardest thing I ever did was make the decision to remove my mother from life support. That's the only thing I've ever done in my life that I think was harder than losing weight. And I'm not entirely positive it was harder.

I'm so sorry for your loss. It's always painful to lose a loved one, but that had to be . . . well, I can't even imagine. :grouphug: I'm sure that you made the best possible, most loving choice. But that doesn't mean it was an easy or painless choice.

 

If, in my enthusiasm to exclaim that CICO doesn't work for everyone, I was dismissive toward you or anyone else for whom CICO has worked, then I sincerely apologize.

[Bluegoat]

That's tough - I think you're very gracious to be so accepting. Yes, he has the right to decide what he eats, certainly! But his decisions affect his loved ones too. The man I knew who refused to treat his diabetes left behind a wife and two small children. :(

 

I missed this before - in the end I am probably not so gracious, as the effect on me isn't likely to be serious in the same kind of way as if I was a dependent, or he was really dependent on me.  He has a girlfriend now actually(so maybe I should point out he now has sex to console him?) so the bulk of care he needed would fall on her.  But even so - death in the elderly is often slow, so whether the diabetes gets him, or cancer, if I am the one caring for him it could be a slog. 

[LarlaB]

I feel like I have 4 modes: 

1:  Don't care what I eat (which = gaining weight)

2:  Trying to watch what I'm eating, secretly hoping I'll lose weight

3:  On a diet (constantly 'watching what you're eating w/ awareness that you are cutting back and want to lose weight)

4;  Very strict hard core dieting (food journal, pretty low carb- no snacks)

 

#4 is the only way I will actually lose weight and is a HUGE HUGE HUGE difference between #3 and #4.  Huge.   I've always said being on a successful weight loss plan is like a part time job for me- the amount of energy & focus it takes is enormous.  It's that hard. 

 

[PeachyDoodle]

Maybe she just never chose to apply her willpower to this.

 

That was my stance, for years.  I felt like spending my energy on this was a waste of perfectly good strength which could be better used for other things.  But now I'm a bit trapped, with health problems that this has caused or greatly amplified.  Bad choices, sure, but truthfully along the way I did the best I could with what I knew at the time, and no one could have called me weak or wimpy and made it stick. 

 

Live and learn, that's what I'm doing!

 

My great-grandmother is a towering figure in our family even though she died long before I was born.  She passed away at 62, had a heart attack while she was writing a letter, and fell over and died.  She was also really, really big, in a big and strong kind of way, at least judging from her pictures.  She was strong and strongminded and tough and totally loving.  I want to be like her, but live for at least 20 years longer.  That's why I'm paying more attention to these issues now that I know more about them.

 

This was absolutely me. And I didn't want to admit it, even to myself. Worse, I told myself that I WAS using all the willpower I had. This is a big part of the reason that I describe my weight problem as a spiritual problem. I was trapped in it.

 

I was over 200 pounds. I've lost 60 and have more to go... Is my opinion acceptable? Did I lose enough to be able to comment?

 

How many of you feel about will power is how I feel about your comments. It sounds like conditioned helpless. It's just completely beyond us to lose this weight. We are powerless against it.

 

I refuse to accept that.

 

I don't think saying it takes determination or will power or whatever term you prefer is the same as blaming. It's an honest statement.

 

It is damn hard and it takes making a decision every single time we take a bite of food. And it just gets harder the less money and time you have.

 

It is HARD to make that choice every single day every single time we eat. I didn't do anything to deserve it or cause it. But here it is needing to be dealt with. And knowing that it will always be like this? That I will likely never ever be able to just forget about it and just eat whatever whenever? That's hard too. Very hard. Eating isn't just sustenance. It's comfort, community and memories. And now for me, it's medicinal, but not a cure. And just like insulin or heart medication, I can't just stop without redeveloping the problems again.

 

I have a relative who has been morbidly obese nearly her entire adult life and tried doing the same thing as me after seeing my results. She got the same results! Dropped to size she hadn't been in 30 years. Felt great. Dr was thrilled. Said if she kept it up, he didn't think she'd insulin after all bc her numbers were so improved. She gained it all back. I know she can do it. I know she will see results. I also know this is not *just* about a physical problem. I think she was scared to lose the weight. Fat insulates. It was a way for her to hide and a fixture of her identity. I am NOT saying is is true of everyone else or anyone here.

 

I'm just saying that yes, it does take determination. Because it is hard and requires a purposeful decision to do it anyways.

 

It also takes a lot of other things too.

 

It takes a supportive family.

It takes time.

It takes finances.

It takes patience.

It takes endurance.

It takes painful self-analysis.

It takes knowing what the impediments are for each person.

It takes knowing our weaknesses and over compensating for them. Maybe forever.

 

We are not weak or accusing anyone else of being weak by saying it's hard and takes a determined effort.

 

Liking this wasn't enough.

[Guest]

I think maybe we can agree on this statement: you need to burn more calories than you consume. What we don't agree on is how useful that statement is. When you really can't control how many you burn, or burn so few that you'd have to reduce intake to starvation levels, it just isn't a helpful statement.

 

And when the people who say it (not saying in this thread) compare their experiences losing 10lbs they gained over the holidays to those who are 100lbs or 200lbs overweight it is even more frustrating, because you just can't compare. It's like a person who healed their bug bite with cortisone cream giving advice to a person with psorriasis or something. The scope is just so different it's not really applicable.

Thank you. I really hate people who lose and keep off twenty pounds giving me advice, when I've lost more than they ever weighed in absolute terms! The etiology of our issues is very, very different, and it follows that the cure might also differ accordingly.

[Joanne]

I do agree with you that once you are obese it is not so simple as calories in/calories out because of factors such as high insulin levels which causes extreme hunger or perhaps messed up intestinal bacteria or a plethora of other problems. I also totally agree that it is not laziness or sloth that keeps people fat at all. I know. I struggle with obesity.

 

 

OTOH I do think calories in/ calories out with movement and being mindful of the type of calories such as sugar and processed carbs can help prevent obesity hopefully. My kid is at risk of obesity because both of his parents are obese. So I usually do not serve desert everyday and offer fruits and veggies when he wants seconds on most occasions. We also try to foster exercise. I think prevention is critical because once you become obese it is almost impossible to lose weight as it stands now since there are no really effective treatments yet.

 

I agree.

[Guest]

This is what is frustrating me in this thread - but this thread simply represents the cultural collective about being fat.

 

I am not mis-placing, under utilizing, or not applying my will power.

 

Will power does not touch my obesity. It no more touches my obesity than my will power would touch cancer.

 

I know I *could* lose weight if I adopt an EXTREME (and unhealthy) reduction in both carbs and calories. Or surgery, which would still utilize extreme reduction. Or Hcg, which, again, would need to be coupled with extreme and unhealthy reduction. The need to do that is the pathology - something is wrong that I can't lose weight on our heralded paths of WW or paleo or low carb.

 

It's ok that "people" don't see how CICO is tied to the fat/lazy assumption. I'll keep talking about it because the existence of fat shaming needs to be outed.

If it makes you feel any better I lost my last thirty pounds with the protocol and did wonderfully. The original, as written, seems to mediate leptin in such a way that one isn't hungry and doesn't experience stress symptoms of low calories. Dr Simeons stumbled into this observation that we are only just now correlating with data. The LCF hCG board has some crazies on it, but in the past many of us have done textbook rounds and had (and maintained) excellent results. I had zero issues until my health crashed unrelatedly.

 

 

But I agree completely - even needing to do this is semi pathological. I have to mutilate my digestive system or find a way to comfortable starve half my weight down to be 'healthy' by insurance standards. WTF?

[Guest]

I feel like I have 4 modes:

 

1: Don't care what I eat (which = gaining weight)

2: Trying to watch what I'm eating, secretly hoping I'll lose weight

3: On a diet (constantly 'watching what you're eating w/ awareness that you are cutting back and want to lose weight)

4; Very strict hard core dieting (food journal, pretty low carb- no snacks)

 

#4 is the only way I will actually lose weight and is a HUGE HUGE HUGE difference between #3 and #4. Huge. I've always said being on a successful weight loss plan is like a part time job for me- the amount of energy & focus it takes is enormous. It's that hard.

 

 

I spent six years in number four. I struggled with mental fatigue on and off for months and still maintained my losses before medical drama. But having to undertake that again, and likely needing more help than even super low carb can give me... Ugh. It makes me want to weep just thinking about it.

[Greta]

I missed this before - in the end I am probably not so gracious, as the effect on me isn't likely to be serious in the same kind of way as if I was a dependent, or he was really dependent on me. He has a girlfriend now actually(so maybe I should point out he now has sex to console him?) so the bulk of care he needed would fall on her. But even so - death in the elderly is often slow, so whether the diabetes gets him, or cancer, if I am the one caring for him it could be a slog.

Yes, very different scenario with an elderly parent, than with a 30 year old.

 

It's still tough, though. My parents are okay, but they're certainly not as strong and capable as they used to be. I really hate my homestate and have no desire to move back, yet I wish so much that I were closer to them and could help out more. I'm glad that both of my brothers still live there, that makes a world of difference. Doesn't stop me from wanting to be there too, though.

 

I'm rambling.

[regentrude]

 I really hate people who lose and keep off twenty pounds giving me advice, when I've lost more than they ever weighed in absolute terms! The etiology of our issues is very, very different, and it follows that the cure might also differ accordingly.

 

I think the bolded should be the starting point and preface for the entire thread, because it would eliminate much of the back-and-forth that stems from different people talking about different things.

Thus we might be able to agree on the following:

 

For many people who are moderately overweight, caloric reduction+increased exercise are an effective way for weight loss. (I do not think anybody can actually argue this fact, since there are overwhelming numbers of success stories and personal experiences)

 

For some people who are severely obese, there are underlying and accompanying metabolic and hormonal issues that cause caloric reduction+increased exercise not to be effective ways for weight loss (as has been the experience of some posters here).

 

People are different, and etiology of issues are different, thus strategies must be different, and everybody's experience is valid.

This does not mean that certain recommendations for weight loss are wrong per se - they just do not apply to all people's medical situations. And I think the latter point is what has become muddled here and caused a certain degree of defensiveness on both sides.

 

 

 

[Guest]

Oh I concur. For my stepmom to get rid of her extra ten pounds post hysterectomy, after a lifetime of thinness, I advised her to watch her carbs. She only has to go moderate on them to watch the weight melt off.

 

My husband gains weight eating three meals a day, so he fasts until lunch and only eats lunch and dinner if his pants are getting tight.

 

My inlaws just have to watch gluten and eat mostly whole foods to hunger to maintain extremely thin frames.

 

My mother has to go moderate to low carb to keep weight off and really watch her snacking to lose weight. She is a perfect candidate for a No S diet, but doesn't do well on higher fat moderate protein plans like I do.

 

There is a whole lot of individual variation, and that's great. Sweeping statements about energy that have little bearing on biology bug me mightily. To those folks I'd highly, highly recommend a brilliant (and formerly fat) Biochemist named Richard David Feinman. Both his blog and book are fabulous contributions to this subject from a primarily evidence based, rigorously academic angle.

 

http://feinmantheother.com

 

http://www.amazon.com/The-World-Turned-Upside-Down/dp/0979201829

[Greta]

I think the bolded should be the starting point and preface for the entire thread, because it would eliminate much of the back-and-forth that stems from different people talking about different things.

Thus we might be able to agree on the following:

 

For many people who are moderately overweight, caloric reduction+increased exercise are an effective way for weight loss. (I do not think anybody can actually argue this fact, since there are overwhelming numbers of success stories and personal experiences)

 

For some people who are severely obese, there are underlying and accompanying metabolic and hormonal issues that cause caloric reduction+increased exercise not to be effective ways for weight loss (as has been the experience of some posters here).

 

People are different, and etiology of issues are different, thus strategies must be different, and everybody's experience is valid.

This does not mean that certain recommendations for weight loss are wrong per se - they just do not apply to all people's medical situations. And I think the latter point is what has become muddled here and caused a certain degree of defensiveness on both sides.

Agreed, and I think that was very well said.

[Murphy101]

If, in my enthusiasm to exclaim that CICO doesn't work for everyone, I was dismissive toward you or anyone else for whom CICO has worked, then I sincerely apologize.

This wasn't addressed to me, but I want to address this portion.

 

I agree it is not as simple as CICO. I stated that in my first post on this thread. CICO did NOT work for me. (omitted some bc it doesn't matter what I did and I don't want to come off as an infomercial. :) )

 

One can think:

 

It's way more complicated than cico or tracking food.

 

And also think

 

It's hard and thus takes a considerable amount of determination.

[SparrowsNest]

I've been following this thread with interest.  I have a few thoughts...

 

1 - My father has lost over half his body weight.  He is nearly 70 years old.  He was going blind due to diabetes -- this kickstarted him into action.  No more processed carbs, no added sugar.  Lots of lean protein and veggies.  

 

2 - I am pretty convinced that sugar/processed carbs are like a drug to my body.  If I eat a donut or bowl of cereal for breakfast, for example, I will find myself almost unconsciously prowling for more within a few hours.  It's like a switch has been turned on and I act like an addict.  I can rarely reason myself out of eating more.  I really want NOT to reach for more, and honestly I know there has to be a way not to do it, but I really do feel a compulsion to eat more.

 

3 - Oddly, after the birth of my last baby, I had some bizarre metabolic switch.  I lost over 50 pounds in about 3 months.  I absolutely could not eat.  I would often feel shaky and weak, but the thought of food made me nauseous. I have no idea what happened there, other than I'd love for it to come back! Ha!  I definitely needed to lose that weight.  I could stand to lose 25 more, but...

 

So much did I NOT want to reduce intake of sugar/carbs that I cut my calorie intake down to 1200 for the last six months, tracking with My Fitness Pal.  I lost exactly zero pounds.  I started working out (P90X3).  3 more months and I still lost nothing.  

 

I am continuing to work out daily, but I'm now switching to low carb/high protein/high healthy-fats, monitoring my macros. I feel better.  My skin is smoother, my digestion has improved, and although I'm the same size, my body looks younger. I'm eating 1600-1800 calories a day.  I am moving more, thanks to the FitBit.  I have a very young (20 years younger than I am) friend with whom I compete on the FitBit. She logs probably 2,000 more steps a day than I do.  Perhaps, over time, that equals less weight.

 

I wish I could say that I'm 100% past caring.  I'm beginning to see glimmers of that attitude. I need to own up to the fact that I'm not 22 anymore.  I want to be healthy, not obsess over the scale or a certain pants size.  I want to be active and fit into my 50s and 60s, so I can finally (!!!!) travel, go on a day's hike, water ski, whatever -- do the things I want to do.  And, I am tired of letting that number define how I feel about myself.  I am tired of having a good day because the scale is down and tired of having a bad day because the scale is up.  I am smack in the middle of my highest and lowest weight.  No doubt my 'set point' has changed. It is what it is. I really want to think about my goal being health, not some number on the scale.

[KathyBC]

 

This is what my exercise regimen looks like today, 18 months and 80 lbs later: 45-60 minutes of high-intensity circuit training (a variety of cardio, body weight, kettle bells, hand weights, and free weights -- whatever she throws at me) three times per week. Short run (1-2 miles) and 45 minutes of cycling one to two times per week. Longer run (2-4 miles) or additional circuit workout once per week. Occasional extras like yoga when I feel like I need it.

 

I do think this is more than the average woman my age. It's certainly more than most of my friends do (although I also have "skinny" friends at the Y who do that much and more). And it is far and away more than I ever thought I could do. But I don't consider it "extreme," as someone called it earlier. It is what I have to do to keep my body healthy. It is not easy, but it is worth it.

Thanks so much for taking the time to share that. So it sounds like 1-hour of hard physical activity 3 times a week, and more like 2-hours 2-3 times per week? With a little extra when you need it?

[KathyBC]

 

 

I know I *could* lose weight if I adopt an EXTREME (and unhealthy) reduction in both carbs and calories. Or surgery, which would still utilize extreme reduction. Or Hcg, which, again, would need to be coupled with extreme and unhealthy reduction.

Any time for exercise plans? Beyond weight, it is my understanding that there is a pretty solid evidence exercise reduces stress, aids sleep and helps in the prevention of heart attacks.