Parenting Spoiled Children (article)

[Scarlett]

Well, why couldn't he work on his coursework? To me, that would come first. However, once he was there, if the coursework could wait, I wouldn't have just said "Fine, do whatever you want." I'm not the obedience type but I would explain why it was important and tell him to get on with it. When you start something, you finish it. Though I'm unclear why he was there to begin with. The last part sounds pretty normal kid/teen stuff. Heck, even I would rather play a game than do the dishwasher. You see what you did here was let him use a whine and a stomp to get what he wants. What you're teaching him is that if he pouts, he doesn't have to be responsible. That doesn't fly here. Sometimes I bribe for big housework that's really *my* responsibility, but my kids have jobs and they know if they don't do those jobs, we all suffer, so they've learned empathy (or at least not to complain to me about it too much).

As I mentioned earlier up thread it was an experiment. I would normally never never allow a whine to get him out of work.

[Scarlett]

He was putting the dishes away though right? You just didn't want to hear him complain? I don't think any of us are saying we have perfect kids or that they happily do everything they're asked/told to do. Mine will sometimes complain while he does stuff too, depending on what he was pulled away from. My attitude is, "You want to whine and complain while you do it? Fine. I don't care, as long as you get it done.". If I don't want to hear him or be around his attitude I'll go in another room until he's done. By sending him away because you didn't want to hear him whine, you reinforced the whining. Yes, that (reinforcement) works on people no matter how old they are.

 

I know in that situation you couldn't walk away because you were trying to get supper going while he was putting dishes away, but even if I couldn't walk away I'd ignore it. Maybe he's complaining so you'll send him off or maybe he just needs to vent his frustration at what he thinks is unfair, even though he's actually doing what he was told to do. Either way, I refuse to take it personally.

Right. He doesn't normally get sent away. I was thinking about this thread and wondering how it would play out to do it differently.

[mommymilkies]

As I mentioned earlier up thread it was an experiment. I would normally never never allow a whine to get him out of work.

Why would you experiment by giving in to whining?  There's a difference between discipline (to teach) and permissive parenting.  I'm sure many kids would prefer the latter but it doesn't benefit them in any way.  Just like I would prefer cake for my meals, and disposable clothing so I don't have to fold anything ever again.

[creekland]

I did a little experiment with my son yesterday....this thread on my mind.

 

I had to clean my boss's very large house 6500 SF. It really really wears me out when I try to het most of it done in one day. I took him with me and told him I needed him to help me the last hour or so. When it came time for him to help he was unpleasant to say the least..wanted to keep doing his drivers Ed course he was working on.

 

I just looked at him. Then I said, "what do you want to do son?" He said he wanted to keep working on his course. So I said ok, and I went on to finish it all myself.

 

Then we got home and I was exhausted. It was after 5. He ran to his computer because a friend of his had some free time to play portal. I rested for an hour and then got up and started getting supper ready. After he had been playing for an hour and a half I told him I need his help in the kitchen. He balked. I said, now please. He stomps in and begins putting away the dishes, complaining because he just wanted to play Portal with Friend and he NEVER gets to......

 

I said, "get out of my kitchen. Go do what you want." By this point I was irritated at him I just wanted him away from me. But I just left him to do what he wanted. You know like apparently some parents handle their teens. Dh and I ate supper, I put supper away.....finally about 9:00 ds comes in and says are we going to have supper? Now mind you, his computer is in view of the kitchen. That is just how oblivious he is. I told him supper was long over. He got into the fridge and made himself a plate.

 

So he goes back to his computer. At 9:30 I head to bed and tel him I am going to sleep don't be talking. At 10:30 I am woken up to his loud laughter. Dh gets up and handles it. I hear ds apologizing. At midnight I get up and ds is still on the computer. By now I've had enough of this experiment and tell him to get in bed.

 

So tell me....you parents who dont expect obedience out of your children...actually even those of you who do...how would you deal with a kid like this?

 

It sounds like the only real issue is the complaining as he was either helping you or going to help you out with your polite requests, am I wrong?  

 

To deal with complaining I either:

 

1) ignore it

2) joke about it ("Aw man, this is so horrible... mom is working X hours doing ___ and now I have to work for an hour.  I don't know if I can handle it...how do you do it?" said in a humorous way while smiling at him.  Then confiding that "This job is a ____, but I really do appreciate your help as it helps the family out tremendously.")

3) Change the subject (How's Portal going?  Can you tell me about the game?  How's your friend doing?  By the way, thanks for helping me.  I really appreciate it.  X minutes until we eat, ok?")

 

Which I would choose would 100% depend upon the situation at the time and my mood.  #s 2 and 3 are really preferable to #1.

 

With the late night chatter/computer use... that's so common among teens.  It's an addiction for many.  You either have to allow it or set limits.  That's a personal preference and we've done both.

[albeto.]

He is 6'3 but I can absolutely make him. It is the attitude I cant handle.

 

I would have not cooked supper, but there is my husband who also worked hard all day and needed food.

 

I took on an office cleaning job for him. It takes the two of us about an hour once a week. I think I will no longer help him. I will use that time to catch up on my reading while I wait for him.

 

Also he wants me to run him all over creation and invite people over constantly.....um no. Too tired.

 

But I want to have a discussion with him about how these measures are not manipulation ( that is his favorite thing to accuse me of lately) but rather actual straightforward consequences to his lack of cooperation and help with household chores.

 

His attitude is born from years of learning a different game, then without warning, you expect him to play this new game and he's not prepared, he's not aware your expectations have changed. You set him up to piss you off and then you got mad at him for doing so.

 

I'm sorry, but if you two don't have a system of cooperation, then you can't expect him to suddenly cooperate in one day.

 

If you have a system of obedience, you've taught him well enough to obey. And he did. And you got made.

 

If you want a system of cooperation, it's going to take time and effort on your part first.

[Scarlett]

Oh, OK. What was the purpose of the experiment?

 

I don't think anyone who says they aren't into obedience would act that way, actually. Nobody said their parenting was all about letting their kids do whatever they want to do.

Ah. I guess I misunderstood. I thought some of you do t make your kids do a,chore if they do t want to or if they have some thing else they want to do.

[Scarlett]

It sounds like the only real issue is the complaining as he was either helping you or going to help you out with your polite requests, am I wrong?

 

To deal with complaining I either:

 

1) ignore it

2) joke about it ("Aw man, this is so horrible... mom is working X hours doing ___ and now I have to work for an hour. I don't know if I can handle it...how do you do it?" said in a humorous way while smiling at him. Then confiding that "This job is a ____, but I really do appreciate your help as it helps the family out tremendously.")

3) Change the subject (How's Portal going? Can you tell me about the game? How's your friend doing? By the way, thanks for helping me. I really appreciate it. X minutes until we eat, ok?")

 

Which I would choose would 100% depend upon the situation at the time and my mood. #s 2 and 3 are really preferable to #1.

 

With the late night chatter/computer use... that's so common among teens. It's an addiction for many. You either have to allow it or set limits. That's a personal preference and we've done both.

I consistently do all of the above except the humor.....that isn't me and he would feel I was making fun of him.

 

As I have said I can make him do what I ask. He just will. But he is rarely agreeable and he even more rarely will offer or even notice without it being shown to him.

[Scarlett]

His attitude is born from years of learning a different game, then without warning, you expect him to play this new game and he's not prepared, he's not aware your expectations have changed. You set him up to piss you off and then you got mad at him for doing so.

 

I'm sorry, but if you two don't have a system of cooperation, then you can't expect him to suddenly cooperate in one day.

 

If you have a system of obedience, you've taught him well enough to obey. And he did. And you got made.

 

If you want a system of cooperation, it's going to take time and effort on your part first.

I really wasn't expecting him to learn a different 'game' from my little experiment. I just wanted to see what would happen. It also helped me to cool off a bit because his lack of helpfulness makes me very angry. I was such a different kid.......I just can't relate to this part of him.

[Shellydon]

I did a little experiment with my son yesterday....this thread on my mind.

 

I had to clean my boss's very large house 6500 SF. It really really wears me out when I try to het most of it done in one day. I took him with me and told him I needed him to help me the last hour or so. When it came time for him to help he was unpleasant to say the least..wanted to keep doing his drivers Ed course he was working on.

 

I just looked at him. Then I said, "what do you want to do son?" He said he wanted to keep working on his course. So I said ok, and I went on to finish it all myself.

 

Then we got home and I was exhausted. It was after 5. He ran to his computer because a friend of his had some free time to play portal. I rested for an hour and then got up and started getting supper ready. After he had been playing for an hour and a half I told him I need his help in the kitchen. He balked. I said, now please. He stomps in and begins putting away the dishes, complaining because he just wanted to play Portal with Friend and he NEVER gets to......

 

I said, "get out of my kitchen. Go do what you want." By this point I was irritated at him I just wanted him away from me. But I just left him to do what he wanted. You know like apparently some parents handle their teens. Dh and I ate supper, I put supper away.....finally about 9:00 ds comes in and says are we going to have supper? Now mind you, his computer is in view of the kitchen. That is just how oblivious he is. I told him supper was long over. He got into the fridge and made himself a plate.

 

So he goes back to his computer. At 9:30 I head to bed and tel him I am going to sleep don't be talking. At 10:30 I am woken up to his loud laughter. Dh gets up and handles it. I hear ds apologizing. At midnight I get up and ds is still on the computer. By now I've had enough of this experiment and tell him to get in bed.

 

So tell me....you parents who dont expect obedience out of your children...actually even those of you who do...how would you deal with a kid like this?

 

Yipes.  That sounds awful.  It sounds like every time he balked, you gave in and let him get his way.  I don't ask for help, I say you do XYZ.  If they complain, gripe or refuse, all privileges are instantly gone.  In your case, WiFi would have disappeared for 2-3 days.  Complaining would have been met with additional chores and additional days of lost WiFi.

[SKL]

Scarlett:  I understand that was an experiment.  But if I wanted to really change things up, I would have a talk with 15yo ahead of time.  Something about how he's an adult in many senses of the word and he needs to cooperate the way adults do and not the way young kids are "made to."  He needs to get on board with being a team member.  You want to communicate with him like the young man that he is becoming, and he needs to start pitching in because it's right, without being a drama queen.

 

Then start with one area of life and go from there.

 

He's at an age when it's sort of now or never.  He could go the rest of his life never picking up a plate without being paid to do it - some people are like that - but hopefully he won't be one of those people.  :)

[SparklyUnicorn]

I really wasn't expecting him to learn a different 'game' from my little experiment. I just wanted to see what would happen. It also helped me to cool off a bit because his lack of helpfulness makes me very angry. I was such a different kid.......I just can't relate to this part of him.

 

I agree with SKL though.  You should have explained what you were going to do.  Then you would have given him a real chance.  He is operating with the same expectations.

[Scarlett]

Yipes. That sounds awful. It sounds like every time he balked, you gave in and let him get his way. I don't ask for help, I say you do XYZ. If they complain, gripe or refuse, all privileges are instantly gone. In your case, WiFi would have disappeared for 2-3 days. Complaining would have been met with additional chores and additional days of lost WiFi.

Yes. I have tried that many times.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Again, I'm struck by how those who say they ask for obedience and those who say they ask for cooperation are doing the exact same thing in the same way, using pretty much the same words to talk to their kids.  At least in our house.  Asking for obedience does not mean that you say "Jump" and the child asks "how high" - at least (in my opinion) not in a home that is not abusive.  Authority can be abused but if it is not being abused it is all about benefiting the child and/or the entire family.  It is not about stroking the parent's ego.  (This is my philosophy here - so take all of the above with a "I believe that. . . ." stuck in front of each sentence.)  

 

Scarlett - you said that you took this job for your son?  What does that mean?  Does that mean that he was hired for this job and you are doing it for him instead?  Then I would drive him to his job, tell him that  you hope he has a "good day at work" and read your book.  I don't think that it is mean for him to learn the value of doing a job well and getting paid for it.  If he doesn't do the job then I guess he will learn in a safe environment while he is still home, that not doing a job you are being paid for, means that you get fired.  (I would talk to him about this first and wouldn't just dump it on him.)  Does it mean that you took it so that you could earn money for him for xyz purpose?  Then I guess I would evaluate that purpose - if it is worth the sacrifice to your time and energy (many times as parents we decide that it is but it's ok if we decide that it isn't either.)  

 

Re. chores we don't want to do.  I give the "we are a team" speech a lot.  And I believe it.  I also tell them that there is no "I" in FAMILY.  Which gets them giggling. . . and telling me, "Mom, there is an I in family!"  

[SparklyUnicorn]

Again, I'm struck by how those who say they ask for obedience and those who say they ask for cooperation are doing the exact same thing in the same way, using pretty much the same words to talk to their kids.  At least in our house.  Asking for obedience does not mean that you say "Jump" and the child asks "how high" - at least (in my opinion) not in a home that is not abusive.  Authority can be abused but if it is not being abused it is all about benefiting the child and/or the entire family.  It is not about stroking the parent's ego.  (This is my philosophy here - so take all of the above with a "I believe that. . . ." stuck in front of each sentence.)  

 

 

I don't think we are using the same words, but I also don't think we are radically far apart either.  I also was not intending to suggest other people should do things my way.  I was defending the fact my way works for me. 

 

Truth be told I'm not sure what we are talking about anymore.  I'm not frustrated by my kids behavior.  If someone is frustrated then yeah maybe they should try something else. 

[albeto.]

I really wasn't expecting him to learn a different 'game' from my little experiment. I just wanted to see what would happen. It also helped me to cool off a bit because his lack of helpfulness makes me very angry. I was such a different kid.......I just can't relate to this part of him.

 

You wanted to see what would happen, but how could you not expect more of the same? That's why I think you inadvertently set him up to fail. He did everything he'd been conditioned and trained and rewarded to do. He performed exactly as he should have. It sounds like you're not completely satisfied with this operation, as he's learned to take advantage of the situation to serve his own needs without considering yours. 

 

Fwiw, in my family, when we scrapped the idea of obedience and authority, I spent a lot of time pampering my kids, and yes, spoiling them. I didn't ask them to do the same damn chore I knew they could do but created hostility and contention in the home every. damn. morning. I did it myself. A couple times I got a sheepish apology, and I told them it was my choice, no worries, etc, etc. I let them off the hook. 

 

Additionally, I started to take an interest in what they were doing. I engaged myself in their interests, even if it wasn't something I was particularly drawn to. I played lots of guitar hero one summer and learned more about the Beatles than I ever cared to know. But after a short time I noticed the tone in the home had changed. Our relationship had changed. It was no longer based on family roles and expectations, governed through authority and control (because really, that's how authority works - having more control than others, real or perceived). It had become based on relating with each other as individuals with unique interests, goals, hopes, dreams, and fears. 

 

Then when I asked for help, I got it. Not because it was expected, not because otherwise they'd have to face an irritable parent, but because I asked for help and they'd experienced my helping them - no strings attached. That became the new normal in our home. 

 

Sometimes we can't or won't help each other out, I won't pretend it's like Snow White's tending to the seven dwarfs here. Sometimes one is busy, deeply involved in something, having too much fun, or just plane irritable. We learn to cut each other some slack, give each other room, and we learn how to let others know how we're feeling so others don't have to guess, and things like that. 

 

I could not have expected that in one day. Or one week. By the end of the summer, things were pleasant. Most of the effort was mine, as I had to learn to reinterpret the values of those ideals I took for granted as being good and helpful. I had to stop and think and figure out if I was upset because my kids' behavior was detrimental to them, or didn't serve me in ways to which I was accustomed. A lot of that serving, I was to find out, was emotional. It's hard to watch your kids embrace things you don't value, it's scary to think they might do the wrong thing. It was a very different way of looking at everything, and I would never go back. I know my kids have my back and they know I have theirs, chores be damned. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

I don't think we are using the same words, but I also don't think we are radically far apart either.  I also was not intending to suggest other people should do things my way.  I was defending the fact my way works for me. 

 

Truth be told I'm not sure what we are talking about anymore.  I'm not frustrated by my kids behavior.  If someone is frustrated then yeah maybe they should try something else. 

Um, you've never met me.  You don't know what words I use when talking to my children.  

 

I don't know you either but I've used the exact same words you used in your posts upthread when talking to my kids.  You'll have to take my word for it, I guess, just as I have to take your word for it that those are the words you use with your child.  

[myfunnybunch]

I did a little experiment with my son yesterday....this thread on my mind.

 

I had to clean my boss's very large house 6500 SF. It really really wears me out when I try to het most of it done in one day. I took him with me and told him I needed him to help me the last hour or so. When it came time for him to help he was unpleasant to say the least..wanted to keep doing his drivers Ed course he was working on.

 

I just looked at him. Then I said, "what do you want to do son?" He said he wanted to keep working on his course. So I said ok, and I went on to finish it all myself.

 

Then we got home and I was exhausted. It was after 5. He ran to his computer because a friend of his had some free time to play portal. I rested for an hour and then got up and started getting supper ready. After he had been playing for an hour and a half I told him I need his help in the kitchen. He balked. I said, now please. He stomps in and begins putting away the dishes, complaining because he just wanted to play Portal with Friend and he NEVER gets to......

 

I said, "get out of my kitchen. Go do what you want." By this point I was irritated at him I just wanted him away from me. But I just left him to do what he wanted. You know like apparently some parents handle their teens. Dh and I ate supper, I put supper away.....finally about 9:00 ds comes in and says are we going to have supper? Now mind you, his computer is in view of the kitchen. That is just how oblivious he is. I told him supper was long over. He got into the fridge and made himself a plate.

 

So he goes back to his computer. At 9:30 I head to bed and tel him I am going to sleep don't be talking. At 10:30 I am woken up to his loud laughter. Dh gets up and handles it. I hear ds apologizing. At midnight I get up and ds is still on the computer. By now I've had enough of this experiment and tell him to get in bed.

 

So tell me....you parents who dont expect obedience out of your children...actually even those of you who do...how would you deal with a kid like this?

 

You needed help cleaning the house. Your ds said he didn't want to, so you asked him what he wanted to do, he told you what he wanted to do, and you agreed that he could do that instead.

You asked him to do the dishes and he came to do them until you told him to go away.

You didn't make his dinner, so he made something for himself.

It sounds like you usually tell him when to go to bed, and you didn't tell him, and he didn't go to bed. (And yeah, it sounds like he was inconsiderate.)

 

The point isn't actually how you dealt with things, it's that you changed your usual behavior. I'm guessing, anyway, since you said it was an experiment. He was thrown into a whole new interaction style. It's hardly fair to him to change how you interact for a day then decide that it doesn't work. It takes time, and often explicit discussion, to shift to a cooperative model. (BTW, I am not suggesting that you should switch. I'm making a general comment on making change in parenting styles and the time and effort it can take. :) )

 

I understand that it's probably not your intention to come across this way, but reading your post, my first thought was that it would hardly be fair for me to come on here and post that I tried first time obedience all day and my kid was awful, and how do you people manage this? I gave an example upthread in which one of my boys didn't want to help when I needed his help. Very similar to your house cleaning issue, actually. I didn't make him help me, and I ended up with a helpful kid for the rest of the day. But that's because it is not new to him. It is familiar. He understands the dynamic. If I changed my parenting for a day and ended up with a balky resistant resentful kiddo, it wouldn't be because the different parenting style is wrong or doesn't work, but because he didn't understand the unspoken "rules" of the new dynamic.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Um, you've never met me.  You don't know what words I use when talking to my children.  

 

I don't know you either but I've used the exact same words you used in your posts upthread when talking to my kids.  You'll have to take my word for it, I guess, just as I have to take your word for it that those are the words you use with your child.  

 

Again, I'm struck by how those who say they ask for obedience and those who say they ask for cooperation are doing the exact same thing in the same way, using pretty much the same words to talk to their kids.  At least in our house.

 

 

I was referring to what you said.  That we are using pretty much the same words.  I don't think we are.  I'm not directing this at you in the sense I know which words you use, but you claimed we are using similar words.  I'm saying I don't think we are using similar words. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

I was referring to what you said.  That we are using pretty much the same words.  I don't think we are.  I'm not directing this at you in the sense I know which words you use, but you claimed we are using similar words.  I'm saying I don't think we are using similar words. 

What I said is "using pretty much the same words to talk to their kids."   

 

No no..not at all regarding the snark.

 

I think you misunderstood the whole choice thing.  I don't really give my kids a choice in the sense you are thinking.  If I need the dishwasher emptied I ask for it to be emptied.  If my kid asks if he can finish something up and that's not a problem I say ok.  If I need it done immediately, I say I really need this done now and I'd appreciate it done now.  So he comes and does it.

 

I don't say, "Empty the dishwasher if you feel like it." 

Who the heck feels like doing that ever? 

That is what I do.  

 

If my kid complains while doing it, I either ignore it or say, "Yeah I know, this stuff is not fun, I don't like it either."   And that is that.  He is right.  Emptying the dishwasher is not fun.  I hate emptying the dishwasher which is in large part why it has become his task if I'm being honest. LOL

That is what I say.  

 

I don't know how you can keep rebutting me on this without just calling me a liar.  

[Scarlett]

Again, I'm struck by how those who say they ask for obedience and those who say they ask for cooperation are doing the exact same thing in the same way, using pretty much the same words to talk to their kids. At least in our house. Asking for obedience does not mean that you say "Jump" and the child asks "how high" - at least (in my opinion) not in a home that is not abusive. Authority can be abused but if it is not being abused it is all about benefiting the child and/or the entire family. It is not about stroking the parent's ego. (This is my philosophy here - so take all of the above with a "I believe that. . . ." stuck in front of each sentence.)

 

Scarlett - you said that you took this job for your son? What does that mean? Does that mean that he was hired for this job and you are doing it for him instead? Then I would drive him to his job, tell him that you hope he has a "good day at work" and read your book. I don't think that it is mean for him to learn the value of doing a job well and getting paid for it. If he doesn't do the job then I guess he will learn in a safe environment while he is still home, that not doing a job you are being paid for, means that you get fired. (I would talk to him about this first and wouldn't just dump it on him.) Does it mean that you took it so that you could earn money for him for xyz purpose? Then I guess I would evaluate that purpose - if it is worth the sacrifice to your time and energy (many times as parents we decide that it is but it's ok if we decide that it isn't either.)

 

Re. chores we don't want to do. I give the "we are a team" speech a lot. And I believe it. I also tell them that there is no "I" in FAMILY. Which gets them giggling. . . and telling me, "Mom, there is an I in family!"

Jean it is a job I have to be legally responsible for since he isn't old enough. I took it for him to do the job....he wanted it and agreed to it. Since I have to drive him there I help him with it.

 

We just had a long talk. More telling him he is member of a household and has to do his part for things to go smoothly. He is a good kid in most ways. He makes straight As, he isn't into any kind of trouble, he has good friends..but he is often NOT helpful, industrious, caring or respectful toward me at least. Elsewhere he is. And I know that is pretty typical because he wants to be liked by his friends and their parents....but it is my job to guide him to do better in his own home.

[Scarlett]

Again, I'm struck by how those who say they ask for obedience and those who say they ask for cooperation are doing the exact same thing in the same way, using pretty much the same words to talk to their kids. At least in our house. Asking for obedience does not mean that you say "Jump" and the child asks "how high" - at least (in my opinion) not in a home that is not abusive. Authority can be abused but if it is not being abused it is all about benefiting the child and/or the entire family. It is not about stroking the parent's ego. (This is my philosophy here - so take all of the above with a "I believe that. . . ."

I agree many are parenting the exact same way. Some are hung up on the word obedience....but really otherwise it is the same approach. What I see the difference is is that some kids are more agreeable and cooperative than others. I see it in my brother and me raised in the same household.....I see it in my ds and Dss raised in seperate households. My MIL has 7 kids and some were agreeable and compliant and some not...some grew out of it and some are bitter and resentful to this day.

[SparklyUnicorn]

What I said is "using pretty much the same words to talk to their kids."   

 

That is what I do.  

 

That is what I say.  

 

I don't know how you can keep rebutting me on this without just calling me a liar.  

 

I was not calling you a liar.  This thread has been a lot more than just those two lines you quoted.  For example, we talked about people not thinking they should have to phrase things in a way to ask a kid to do something in the way we'd ask our spouse to do something.  

 

I'm sorry I did not go into detail about that in my responses to Scarlett. 

 

When I went on to say my expectations are that my kid do it despite my differences in asking, I feel the same way about my spouse.  I can't make my spouse do things. I'm not suggesting I'd send him to bed without dinner.  But I do expect him to do stuff if I ask unless there is some good reason why not.  So I'd probably respond pretty negatively to him ignoring me. 

[Catwoman]

Yeah. I had a child that wouldn't go for the choice option either. I gave up on parenting books about that time... :glare:

ME: Would you like option one or option 2?

 

KID: Neither!!!

[Jean in Newcastle]

Sparkly, I am not Scarlett.  I give the same respect when talking to my children as I do my spouse and vice versa.  

[SparklyUnicorn]

My view is a spirit of cooperation along with considering my kids full fledged human beings.  My interpretation of another view here is a spirit of expecting obedience because I'm the boss and kids are incapable of fully making these sorts of decisions.  In the end we both probably want the same things for our kids. 

Totally simplistic explanation here, but that's the big difference I see.

 

Of course I like my way better because why else would I choose to do it?  But this is not to say the other way is wrong or that it does not work. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Sparkly, I am not Scarlett.  I give the same respect when talking to my children as I do my spouse and vice versa.  

 

Yes I realize that.  I was only commenting that I don't think we are all using the same words.  You and I might use similar words, but not everyone here having this conversation.

 

I wasn't disagreeing with you beyond that though.

 

I'm not really even disagreeing.  I'm just blah blah blahing.  LOL

 

I think we kinda beat this topic to death at this point.  : )

[8circles]

I love how you describe how your interactions changed.

I don't always do this well, but its what I strive for. I have always liked my kids (& of LOVE them, of course) but I found that obedience & authority as deacribed in this thread was, *for me*, mutually exclusive with acting as if I liked my kids. They weren't getting that message.

 

You wanted to see what would happen, but how could you not expect more of the same? That's why I think you inadvertently set him up to fail. He did everything he'd been conditioned and trained and rewarded to do. He performed exactly as he should have. It sounds like you're not completely satisfied with this operation, as he's learned to take advantage of the situation to serve his own needs without considering yours.

 

Fwiw, in my family, when we scrapped the idea of obedience and authority, I spent a lot of time pampering my kids, and yes, spoiling them. I didn't ask them to do the same damn chore I knew they could do but created hostility and contention in the home every. damn. morning. I did it myself. A couple times I got a sheepish apology, and I told them it was my choice, no worries, etc, etc. I let them off the hook.

 

Additionally, I started to take an interest in what they were doing. I engaged myself in their interests, even if it wasn't something I was particularly drawn to. I played lots of guitar hero one summer and learned more about the Beatles than I ever cared to know. But after a short time I noticed the tone in the home had changed. Our relationship had changed. It was no longer based on family roles and expectations, governed through authority and control (because really, that's how authority works - having more control than others, real or perceived). It had become based on relating with each other as individuals with unique interests, goals, hopes, dreams, and fears.

 

Then when I asked for help, I got it. Not because it was expected, not because otherwise they'd have to face an irritable parent, but because I asked for help and they'd experienced my helping them - no strings attached. That became the new normal in our home.

 

Sometimes we can't or won't help each other out, I won't pretend it's like Snow White's tending to the seven dwarfs here. Sometimes one is busy, deeply involved in something, having too much fun, or just plane irritable. We learn to cut each other some slack, give each other room, and we learn how to let others know how we're feeling so others don't have to guess, and things like that.

 

I could not have expected that in one day. Or one week. By the end of the summer, things were pleasant. Most of the effort was mine, as I had to learn to reinterpret the values of those ideals I took for granted as being good and helpful. I had to stop and think and figure out if I was upset because my kids' behavior was detrimental to them, or didn't serve me in ways to which I was accustomed. A lot of that serving, I was to find out, was emotional. It's hard to watch your kids embrace things you don't value, it's scary to think they might do the wrong thing. It was a very different way of looking at everything, and I would never go back. I know my kids have my back and they know I have theirs, chores be damned.

[Catwoman]

Jean it is a job I have to be legally responsible for since he isn't old enough. I took it for him to do the job....he wanted it and agreed to it. Since I have to drive him there I help him with it.

 

We just had a long talk. More telling him he is member of a household and has to do his part for things to go smoothly. He is a good kid in most ways. He makes straight As, he isn't into any kind of trouble, he has good friends..but he is often NOT helpful, industrious, caring or respectful toward me at least. Elsewhere he is. And I know that is pretty typical because he wants to be liked by his friends and their parents....but it is my job to guide him to do better in his own home.

I think part of the problem is that he is 15. He is at an age where he wants to feel more independent and like he is in control of his own life. I think it's pretty common for 15yos to want to do what they want to do when they want to do it, and to be pretty self-centered about the whole thing.

 

Of course, knowing it is probably a phase isn't helpful right now...

[Runningmom80]

This thread has gotten so weird. :laugh:

[SparklyUnicorn]

I think part of the problem is that he is 15. He is at an age where he wants to feel more independent and like he is in control of his own life. I think it's pretty common for 15yos to want to do what they want to do when they want to do it, and to be pretty self-centered about the whole thing.

 

Of course, knowing it is probably a phase isn't helpful right now...

 

Yeah it's a difficult age. People expect you to be more responsible and mature, but they give you very little freedom and respect afforded to those who are responsible and mature. 

 

I remember the "speech" in high school.  "You are now young adults and you must act accordingly."  Oh but by the way you have no rights.  No you may not call in sick for yourself.  No you may not go outside and eat lunch.  Etc...

[SparklyUnicorn]

This thread has gotten so weird. :laugh:

 

Yeah really lets talk about food.

 

What's everyone having for dinner?  

[Catwoman]

This thread has gotten so weird. :laugh:

I blame you.

.

.

.

.

.:laugh:

[Catwoman]

Yeah really lets talk about food.

 

What's everyone having for dinner?

 

Tell the truth.

 

You're just looking for another chance to brag about those taco plates.

 

I see right through you.

 

:lol:

 

.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Tell the truth.

 

You're just looking for another chance to brag about those taco plates.

 

I see right through you.

 

:lol:

 

.

 

**hangs head in shame**

[Catwoman]

**hangs head in shame**

Well, to your credit, they are very cute taco plates. :)

[SparklyUnicorn]

I'm currently trying Lay's West Coast Truffle Fries flavored chips.

 

blech...I don't get the flavor of these chips.

 

[SKL]

I agree people are hung up on the word "obedience."  Apparently it means different things to different people.  It might belong in the "things people don't really need to argue about" thread.  ;)

[creekland]

Supper?  I just learned it's National Junk Food day so I have to scrap my plan to eat light from the garden and come up with something else.

 

Hubby has a township meeting, so maybe I'll have youngest make something - in addition to helping me out with my wounded pony - then heading off to his overnight job.  :lol:  

 

(Or maybe we'll all just fix whatever we feel like eating when we want to eat.  Youngest will be helping me with the pony though - quite willingly I might add...)

[SKL]

Dinner?  I just ate lunch.  Leftover spaghetti casserole.  Yum!

 

My ridiculously spoiled kids ate lunchables in the backseat of my car.  And left the packages there for me to clean up.  As I shuttled them from one foo foo summer camp to another on my lunch break.  Tsk, tsk.

 

Tonight, after their third foo foo camp of the day, we will probably eat out at Bob Evans or some such place.  More spoiling.  Tsk tsk.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I made meat loaf, but I'm having steak.  My weird family likes meatloaf better than steak, but I hate meatloaf.  I like to cook before it gets too hot.  It's too hot now.  Ugh..

 

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Yes I realize that.  I was only commenting that I don't think we are all using the same words.  You and I might use similar words, but not everyone here having this conversation.

 

I wasn't disagreeing with you beyond that though.

 

I'm not really even disagreeing.  I'm just blah blah blahing.  LOL

 

I think we kinda beat this topic to death at this point.  : )

I think perhaps you misread what I had said earlier?  All I was saying was that if you did not know our parenting philosophies you would see the very same interactions between parent and child, down to the very words I speak to my children when trying to get obedience / cooperation.  The sentence where I talked about "similar words" was referring to this - that interaction between parent and child.  It was not referring to similar words used in describing a parenting philosophy.  

 

As an aside, despite different parenting philosophies, my relationship with my children and the kind of consideration we give each other, is very similar to what Albeto describes.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

I have no opinion on dinner.  Dd and ds make their own dinners by their choice.  I think I have enough leftovers around here to get away with not cooking for dh and myself.  

[catz]

I agree people are hung up on the word "obedience."  Apparently it means different things to different people.  It might belong in the "things people don't really need to argue about" thread.  ;)

 

I have to admit, I am one to regularly post here when people get hung up on semantics, but the word obedience does bug me.  No one is obeying anyone around here.  We're TEAM FAMILY!  :hurray: LOL.

 

So I went out to Google the definition of "obedience" to see what an online dictionary might say about that.  I am willing to be swung.  Just for good measure I'm cutting and pasting that here for everyone's information.  Interpret at will.  ;)

 

o·be·di·ence

əˈbÄ“dÄ“É™ns,ÅˈbÄ“dÄ“É™ns/

noun

noun: obedience

1. compliance with an order, request, or law or submission to another's authority.

   "children were taught to show their parents obedience"

   synonyms: compliance, acquiescence, tractability, amenability; More

   dutifulness, duty, deference, observance of the law/rules;

   submissiveness, submission, conformity, docility, tameness, subservience, obsequiousness, servility

   "the party leadership wants blind obedience to their policies"

   antonyms: disobedience, rebellion

   • observance of a monastic rule.

     "vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience"

 

 

However, directly to the right of the definition on google maps came the markings of places to go for obedience training.  For dogs.  So that's really where my mind goes when I hear that word!  I look at submissive, conformity, and subservience as synonyms and you lost me!  But I do totally agree that people are looking at it differently.  I wonder if it's partially regional because no one uses the word obey like that round these parts.

 

And I like tacos just to get back to the food thing.

[luuknam]

Jean it is a job I have to be legally responsible for since he isn't old enough. I took it for him to do the job....he wanted it and agreed to it. Since I have to drive him there I help him with it.

 

Huh? You are legally responsible for his job? Really? Can someone explain to me if that makes sense? I'm from NL, and when I was 15 I got a job (actually 2 jobs, one delivering newspapers and another delivering magazines) and my parents didn't care one way or another. If I didn't do the job I'd simply get fired (I did my job until I didn't want it anymore and I simply quit). Of course, for those jobs I could transport myself (bicycle), but still... I haven't heard of any parents in NL being legally responsible for their kids' jobs. I've never heard of parents being legally responsible for their kids' jobs in the US either, but I don't really know people with kids old enough to get jobs.

[SKL]

Huh? You are legally responsible for his job? Really? Can someone explain to me if that makes sense? I'm from NL, and when I was 15 I got a job (actually 2 jobs, one delivering newspapers and another delivering magazines) and my parents didn't care one way or another. If I didn't do the job I'd simply get fired (I did my job until I didn't want it anymore and I simply quit). Of course, for those jobs I could transport myself (bicycle), but still... I haven't heard of any parents in NL being legally responsible for their kids' jobs. I've never heard of parents being legally responsible for their kids' jobs in the US either, but I don't really know people with kids old enough to get jobs.

 

I don't either, and I'm in the US.  Never heard of it.  I've taken jobs my mom tried to get me to quit, but never the other way around.  :P

 

[luuknam]

However, directly to the right of the definition on google maps came the markings of places to go for obedience training.  For dogs. 

 

I don't get any maps for 'obedience' on Google. The first link is to "Obedience (human behavior)" on Wikipedia, followed by several biblical links:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obedience_%28human_behavior%29

 

Etymologically, it seems that "to obey" literally comes from "do as you're told" (well, from Latin oboedire, from ob- ‘in the direction of’ + audire ‘hear.’).

 

I love how they have graphs on how common words are in each year. Obedience seems to have some slight resurgence since the year 2000.

 

If today is National Junk Food Day, iirc there is some episode of Chopped (on Netflix) where they have 4 chefs who lost a bunch of weight cook food using baskets full of junk food. I think for the desert round they had Twinkies as one of their ingredients?

 

In other non-news, I don't know what's for dinner.

[Runningmom80]

It's taco tuesday!  What are taco plates?

[luuknam]

It's taco tuesday!  What are taco plates?

 

Apparently plates that hold your tacos upright. Someone (Sparkly?) got a good deal for them at Aldi?

[albeto.]

I think perhaps you misread what I had said earlier?  All I was saying was that if you did not know our parenting philosophies you would see the very same interactions between parent and child, down to the very words I speak to my children when trying to get obedience / cooperation.  

 

I'm having trouble understanding this, too. I'm going by the concepts to which you appeal earlier:

 

Authority can be abused but if it is not being abused it is all about benefiting the child and/or the entire family. 

 

Just an observation:  When our kids were young, I found that my parenting style of expecting and teaching obedience (in a gentle fashion) was a lot quicker than my friends who would spend ten minutes or more trying to cajole their kids into putting their shoes on, getting in the carseat etc. 

 

 

I didn't adopt my current parenting style when my kids were younger, so I can't really talk about that except through observation of friends who do, but your style really doesn't seem to match mine. For example, I don't assume any authority in my home. It's not a matter of me not abusing authority, it just isn't a thing here except for where it occurs by necessity (such as, I am responsible for my children's education, so the state sees me as the authority overseeing that). I don't expect or teach obedience, gently, or otherwise. Really, we're more like a commune of inter-dependent people who are one family, bonded by blood and shared dreams and goals. 

 

I don't mean to belabor a point or to put you on the spot, but in my opinion, it's really a very different paradigm from conventional parenting where members of the family assume roles by virtue of their birth. That doesn't happen here. 

[albeto.]

I don't get any maps for 'obedience' on Google. The first link is to "Obedience (human behavior)" on Wikipedia, followed by several biblical links:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obedience_%28human_behavior%29

 

Etymologically, it seems that "to obey" literally comes from "do as you're told" (well, from Latin oboedire, from ob- ‘in the direction of’ + audire ‘hear.’).

 

I love how they have graphs on how common words are in each year. Obedience seems to have some slight resurgence since the year 2000.

 

If today is National Junk Food Day, iirc there is some episode of Chopped (on Netflix) where they have 4 chefs who lost a bunch of weight cook food using baskets full of junk food. I think for the desert round they had Twinkies as one of their ingredients?

 

In other non-news, I don't know what's for dinner.

 

Apropos of nothing, dd got her wisdom teeth yanked out last week. She's been binge watching Chopped ever since, lol!