What you love vs what will pay off (again, sorry) ?

[Ann.without.an.e]

I just want to talk about this again since we are bit further down the road with dd.  Maybe there will be some new thoughts/ideas?

 

She is amazing with literature, writing, English, and art.  She is also strong in math.  Dh thinks she should put all of her eggs into one basket, the one she has passion for - literature and writing.  Maybe a lit professor or high school lit teacher?  She truly excels in this area.   For example, she didn't even take an AP Eng class but scored a 5 on the exam and she always tests in the top 1% nationally in the English/Reading/Writing portions of the PSAT, SAT, ACT, etc.  She is gifted here.  DD is scared to put all of her eggs into the English basket though.  She is great at math.  Is it her love?  No.  Does she like it?  yes.  She thinks that as a female she has greater opportunities in math and science fields so she wants to keep that door open at all times.  We, as parents, can see that the math and science are not a passion for her though.  She comes to life when she talks about writing or art.  She trudges through the math and science (with awesome grades, but none the less trudging).  There is just something about loving what you do. 

 

Thoughts?  Experiences? 

[ktgrok]

I think wanting to be a high school or college teacher is a reasonable goal. It's not like you are saying circus performer. And although the pay isn't great, it's a good field for women with children, allowing them to be home on holidays, weekends, school vacations, etc. And she may be able to supplement that with writing. 

[regentrude]

My DD is in a similar situation. She is very good in math and physics, great in English, and has a natural gift in teaching physics.. She is postponing any "eggs-in'a-basket" decisions by pursuing a double major in physics and English. Then she has two great qualifications and can see where things lead her.

 

ETA: An English degree has many possible uses, but the job market to be a literature professor at a college is very very slim. (aside form the fact that most college English instructors end up teaching many sections of introductory composition  - not discussing great books with interested students.) To become a tenured professor and not a slaving adjunct is extremely competetive and takes a great dose of luck. Just something to keep in mind.

[regentrude]

I think wanting to be a high school or college teacher is a reasonable goal. It's not like you are saying circus performer. And although the pay isn't great, it's a good field for women with children, allowing them to be home on holidays, weekends, school vacations, etc.

 

High school teachers, maybe, yes.

College instructors? Not the college instructors I know. If they're home, they are grading papers or finally finding time to work on their research.

 

[KarenNC]

I think she's wise to keep her options open. When I went to college, I was going to be an engineer, but discovered that I really enjoyed psychology/human services and ended up working in that field. She could also double major---I wasn't the only one in my graduating class who doubled or had a major/minor in physics and psychology. My husband has a lit degree and has worked in IT for over 20 years. He doesn't love it, but he does like the fact that the job lets us afford things we might not if he were in another field (like my staying at home). If she comes to a point where one totally precludes the other, then will be the time to make that decision.

 

My daughter (rising sophomore) is also passionate about writing, as well as psychology, history, and women's/gender/sexuality studies. I'm encouraging her to keep her options open when looking at colleges rather choosing based only on one program, given that I changed my major 5 times while in college. We were talking at lunch about the fact that she could still write even if she had a different career or a different job initially.

[katilac]

What grade is she in?

 

And what do you mean by putting all of her eggs in one basket? If she's not even in college yet, there's certainly no reason to to be chucking her eggs out of the STEM basket yet. I would certainly proceed with challenging math throughout high school for sure. Many people don't get to a true enjoyment of math or certain sciences until they have gotten to the 'fun' bits - that is, the truly interesting stuff. Continuing to study math will keep doors open, and it's certainly a good use of her time, imo. 

 

Plus, there's a whole big world out there - her choices are not limited to literature or STEM by a long shot. And I try to emphasize to my kids that loving what you do is great, but it's not the only path to having a good life. I don't want them to hate their job, of course not, but not everyone is going to find a career that keeps their heart singing and pays the bills. It's okay if your job is what lets you do the things you love  when you're not at work. 

 

Loving literature and writing isn't necessarily the same as loving to teach literature and writing. Sometimes a passion becomes your life work. Sometimes a passion becomes a beloved part of your private life, something you can enjoy more purely because it isn't what you are getting paid to do, and it doesn't have the frustrations and trade-offs that come with paid work.  

 

My dd is similar in that she is quite good in math, but she certainly doesn't love it the way some kids do. For her senior year, we decided to do an introduction to discrete mathematics rather than calculus. It will expose her to a lot of interesting topics that aren't on the strict calculus progression - I view it as the best chance for her to find something in math that does excite her, that perhaps she might want to pursue further.  

 

If not, that's fine. She can always take calculus in college, but she's much less likely to take an exploratory class like discrete math.

 

Mostly I think that high school is a bit young for MOST students to be deciding where their passions are, and definitely too young to be putting all of their eggs in one basket. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[KarenNC]

I think wanting to be a high school or college teacher is a reasonable goal. It's not like you are saying circus performer. And although the pay isn't great, it's a good field for women with children, allowing them to be home on holidays, weekends, school vacations, etc. And she may be able to supplement that with writing.

The school teachers I know are often working a second job in the summer or teaching summer school to supplement their income. Many of those school holidays are termed "teacher workdays" for a reason and often if school is closed for students due to bad weather teachers still have to be there, not to mention the incredible number of hours outside the school day that they spend in training, grading, planning, coaching/advising a club, etc.

[FairProspects]

No idea about the passion or eggs thing, but I would not advise anyone to become a public high school teacher at this point, especially in ELA. Way too many politics have significantly changed the profession. Experienced teachers are leaving in droves. While I love teaching, I wish I had chosen another profession. I cannot see going back to teaching in a PS until some major changes are made.

[Lori D.]

Just rambling out loud, in hope something here helps… ;)

 

Consider doing both. Look into Integrated Degree programs (in which the student combines 2 very diverse degree programs for the Bachelor's). Or consider doing a double major in 2 diverse fields. Esp. if DD majors in English / Writing, and General Science or Math, she will be in an excellent position for Technical Writing, or Communications with a Science or Engineering firm. A combo of Writing / Math / Arts could open doors in the Business world in Marketing, Advertising, Copy Writing, etc.

 

To help think through what she wants to actually DO for a paid job:

 

What specifically does DD DO right now in English / Literature / Writing / Arts that causes her to light up?

Would she continue to be happy and fulfilled in doing those things, all her own way, "on the side" as a hobby or personal interest?

What *jobs* or paying occupations does DD light up about in the English / Literature / Writing / Arts areas?

How does DD feel about doing those aspects she loves about English / Literature / Writing / Arts on a work schedule?

Or being required to do Literature / Writing / Art in a prescribed way or a way different than she loves, due to requirements from the job, boss, or client? 

 

Because what we do for a job is often very different than what we can do/get to do/want to do for a personal interest or hobby. It is one thing to have a passion about something, and a very different thing to really want to do that as your paid JOB. Sometimes, you have to do things you dislike, or do what you love in a manner that you dislike to conform to the needs of a job or a boss, which can really kill a love or passion -- which might remain a passion if you can continue to do it all in YOUR way on the side as a rewarding and fulfilling.

 

On the other hand, nothing worse than feeling stuck in a job you don't care about just because it is a stable paycheck, and it takes away from the time you would like to use for the things you love...

[G5052]

I'd plan on a double major and see how she feels after her first year.  BUNCHES happen that year in terms of maturity and seeing what they like and don't like.

 

Perhaps technical writing is a possibility?  It doesn't pay like a full STEM degree, but folks do very well in my area with it.  It definitely pays better than a teacher and has the advantage of being part-time if you want that. My undergraduate school has them take core science and math classes, more English than standard STEM major, and then they take technical writing.  I'm encouraging my own English kid to look that way.

 

And keep in mind that getting full-time work as an English professor is notoriously difficult. At the community college I work for, the majority of them are former high school teachers who taught AP English for 10+ years while being an adjunct professor in the evening. You don't get into that right out of college.  Some of them are actually retired high school teachers who got frustrated and retired early.

[creekland]

Her eggs don't need to be in any basket at this point.  I tell ALL kids heading to college (mine and those at school) to find a path you think you'll like and start there.  Then keep your eyes and mind open.  Your path is rarely set in stone from the beginning.

 

Many, many, many times in college kids see things they had no idea were out there and end up following that path.

 

Overall, I'd rather see someone doing what they love with less income than something they endure with high income.  Obviously there's a middle ground in there too.

[ktgrok]

High school teachers, maybe, yes.

College instructors? Not the college instructors I know. If they're home, they are grading papers or finally finding time to work on their research.

 

 

Sorry, yes, meant high school teachers. 

 

Also, keep in mind that an English degree can be used to go to Grad school in many many fields. Law school is one option, but there are others. 

[katilac]

I really like Cal Newport's blog series on "the passion trap." He doesn't discount the idea of loving what you do, but posits that most people approach it the wrong way. 

 

Here's a link to the first post in the series: 

 

http://calnewport.com/blog/2010/09/10/the-danger-of-the-dream-job-delusion/

[Julie of KY]

I vote what you love since it definitely still has potential to pay off as well and can be the first step toward many things.

[OneStepAtATime]

FWIW, my passion when I was in High School was literature and writing.  I hated math, by the way.  I went into college planning to do something with literature/writing, possibly in print media or maybe as a teacher.  Then I took a geology course and discovered I loved Geology.  I dropped my push to do all things literature and writing related.  I pressed hard with geology instead.  But I also found out that that wasn't the best career path and I struggled with the chemistry part.  I kept exploring other areas, took several courses in different areas.  I found I loved a lot of things and was good at them.  Then I found Broadcast TV and loved, loved, loved it.  I thrived.  I made a career out of it and did well for many years.  I met my husband and we both did well in TV.   Then I had to take over my dad's business when he passed away.  I left Broadcast TV.  I ended up handling the finances for the business.  I had to incorporate a lot of math, the subject I didn't like.  I found out I actually liked handling the business finances and got a lot of accolades from the company CPA for bailing out the business.

 

The point to all my rambling is that there is no way to predict where her interests will lie in the future or what paths she can take.  There is no need to put all the eggs in one basket, as others have pointed out.  Let her explore her options, keep trying out things, and I would encourage her to keep an open mind.  Take courses now and in college that will stretch her in new directions.  It sounds like she has so many areas of strength there may be many things she could do that she hasn't even thought of yet, areas that will tap her strengths and may kindle new passions.  The world is out there.  Let her explore.   :)

 

Best wishes.

[8filltheheart]

I would distinguish between something that is just a love and something that is not only a love but equally possessing the talented gift as well.  Lots of people have loves but do not possess equal talent to back it up beyond hobby level vs. professional level.  

 

My 11th grader is in the exploration stage right now of how to take her love+gift for languages and turn that into a career.  I am not convinced she even has to make up her mind as an undergrad, but could pursue a clearer vision in grad school.  (FWIW, math is dd's easiest subject, but she does not like it and would definitely not opt for a career built around it. ;) )

[EmilyGF]

I think another thing to consider is that there are many many many careers that most people don't know even exist. 

The few English majors I know currently:

 

- teach intro composition at a small Catholic university (she is not tenured, nor is she tenure track, and she gets reappointed each year - she has a PhD, which took about 7 years after BA)

- edit (two of these, each with BA)

- write copy for the American Medical Association (BA?)

 

Emily

[lisabees]

Send her to a good liberal arts college.  Sounds like a perfect fit for her.  

 

As far as teaching in a public school...meh.  I have taught in a public middle school for the last two years.  The profession is different.  The goals are different.  And, my oh my, the kids are different.  It is frustrating and disheartening.

 

College is the time to explore.  No decisions are necessary yet.  Tell her to enjoy the path!

 

 

[EKS]

There is a huge difference between doing writing and teaching writing.  If she wants to write herself, she should think long and hard about whether she wants a career in *teaching*.

[J-rap]

How old is she?  I think she should keep all of her options open still.  My kids all loved and most naturally excelled in the same areas:  writing, lit, and art.  That's what I loved the most too, so we really centered our homeschool environment on those subjects, while keeping up with the others, of course.  They didn't like math.

 

Three of my kids (one just graduated from college, the other two are in college) have regretted it a bit.  They're glad for all the writing and lit and art we did, but they wished it hadn't been at the expense of math and science.  As they got older and had to take a science and math or two in college, they finally realized that they actually enjoyed them too, and they sometimes wonder if they would have really taken to one of them eventually and then had a career in it.  But, they felt that their path was already too set in a different direction.

[mommymilkies]

High school teachers, maybe, yes.

College instructors? Not the college instructors I know. If they're home, they are grading papers or finally finding time to work on their research.

 

I'd say not even for public school teachers.  There's a lot of grading and prep outside of the classroom that takes up nights and weekends.  As for college instructors, I'd say University professors definitely no if you do research.  Then there are committees, advising, office hours, and clubs for cc and university teachers. For cc teachers?  Maybe.  BUT many colleges & universities are trying to hire mostly adjuncts that are paid very poorly and have no benefits at most places, so keep that in mind.  It could change in the next 6+ years, but I'm a big fan of the back up plan after our experiences. 

[bugs]

You may be surprised how much an engineer actually has to write.  An engineer who writes well is a rare thing. Just sayin'.

[Deee]

As a former scientific writer, I would encourage her to do both for as long as she can (I did, to my great advantage long term). Science desperately needs excellent communicators, now more than ever. Scientists write A LOT! Their funding, and thus, their continued employment, depends on it. Many of them are quite ordinary at it. A good English professor should have a knowledge of scientific reasoning - its the very basis of critical thought. And a good scientist should be able to passionately and intelligently discuss literature and poetry - what's the point of understanding the world and human life if you can't appreciate its beauty and abstract achievements? Some careers she may not have thought of : scientific writer, science journalist, editor. Who knows where she might end up. When I was juggling too many science, maths and English classes in high school, I didn't think I'd be teaching cellular biology and discussing Poe's The Raven in a teen bookclub on the same day!

 

PS I am aware that the last sentence is a shocker - its midnight in Sydney and I can't be bothered fixing it.

[Tsuga]

High school teachers, maybe, yes.

College instructors? Not the college instructors I know. If they're home, they are grading papers or finally finding time to work on their research.

 

 

The two HS instructors I know are grading papers or working a second job.

 

I don't think anyone should have all their eggs in one basket in our economy. It's good to have three resumes.

[Carol in Cal.]

I have a chemical engineering degree.  When I was applying for college I couldn't imagine going to school and not being a 'something' when I got out.  I loved literature but I couldn't be 'an English'.  But I could be 'an engineer'.  I didn't think I could afford the luxury of just studying for love.  (I wish I had gotten better college counseling, but there you have it.) 

 

Also, I wanted to be well-rounded, and I knew that I wouldn't study STEM on my own, but that I would always read on my own.  So going to college in the sciences made sense to me.

In my freshman year in college I realized that I loved history and wanted to switch majors.  At the time I probably could have done that and become a history professor, and I would have enjoyed my career a lot more. '

 

OTOH, because I stuck with chemical engineering I was able to see Japan and Germany without paying for it, to live in New England for a few years, and to buy my first home in Silicon Valley when I was 25 (and single).  Those are not insignificant plusses.  Also I was able to save up enough to stay home for a long time with my daughter.  This was something I don't think I ever could have done in academia, and it's the best thing I ever did.  So all in all, although Chem E was not my highest love, I'm very glad that I stuck with it.

 

I taught both chemistry and literature coop classes while homeschooling.  No education is ever wasted.