My Experience With A More Socialist? State

[JennifersLost]

I don't think socialist is the right word here, and I'm going to offend someone, I know it, so bear with me. By socialist I'm talking about the way the Canadian government offers a much more comprehensive safety net of public services than the US does.

 

It's been very interesting to go from the US to Canada and see what I thought worked and what didn't. I'm going to be pretty frank about finances so you can get the real picture. If you think that's wrong, please don't read further.

 

Let me preface this by saying we are in a somewhat unusual position. We have a fair amount of assets: money in the bank, property we own outright, etc. We have one mortgage of about $100,000. No other debt.

 

But.

 

When we moved here four years ago I stopped working and dh was just starting to build his own business, so our actual income was miniscule. It took over a year after I moved to Canada for me to get permanent resident status. During that time I couldn't work and had to pay outright for healthcare for my three sons and I. We found out that after just a few months we qualified for what is called the Canada Child Tax Credit.

 

The CCTB isn't just money off your taxes once a year; it's a monthly payment given to anyone with kids because Canada needs more kids. The more kids you have, the more money you get. The less you earn, the more you get. "But I'm not even a legally here!" I kept telling the woman from the Revenue office. "I'm here on visitor status!"

 

"Doesn't matter!" was the reply. So, even before I became a resident of Canada I started getting checks to the tune of $700 a month. The next year we looked dismal on paper. We did a huge amount of renovations on our rentals, dh's business hadn't yet turned a profit. I think our total "income" for tax purposes was about $15,000, LOL.

 

Our CCTB payments soared to over $1000 a month. This isn't welfare, folks - just flat payments for having kids. over $12,000 a year for being fertile and not very successful. At no time did someone take a look at our assets and say, "Jeez, these people don't really need any help. Let's give our money to the deserving poor." Nope.

 

Well, last year things began to come together for dh. We spent less on the rentals and the income grew steadier. His company began to take off. After all the write-offs we showed $66,000 on our tax return.

 

Yikes!

 

We ended up paying $12,500 in taxes and our CCTB payments were slashed. We'll lose over $7,000 in income from that. Our portion of the health care payment went up, as well, over $1000 for the next year.

 

So, we earned an extra $51,000 last year - what a success!

 

And "lost" close to $20,000 of back to the government. That's 40 percent!

 

(note - we weren't taxed at 40%; but we lost 40% of those "extra" earnings)

 

Suddenly, instead of feeling successful, we're walking around feeling defeated.

 

I've already figured out that if I took a part time job this spring it could easily end up being a total wash. We could stop trying so darn hard, sit back and relax and get all the important things paid for instead.

 

I'm going to have to run before I can cover all sides. It IS very nice to know that the medical system is there for us. When we lived in the US we were constantly afraid of potential medical bills and often went without care that we needed. But there is a cost for socialized medicine, etc, and part of that cost is the potential for losing the motivation for hard work.

[Rosy]

Thanks for sharing your experience.

 

It is very hard for someone to work hard to get off public assistance only to end up worse off than they were before. When we'd had our 3rd kid, we were on WIC and state subsidized health insurance, and became convicted that we (I'm just talking about our family, not anyone else) needed to pay our own way. DH spent a year looking for a job, making contacts in his industry, doing freelance work, and finally got hired on somewhere making almost double what he had been making. However, with the increased cost of insurance, the loss of WIC and having to move to a more expensive part of the state, our budget was just as tight if not tighter for a long time. It's been 4 years of my husband working very hard for a good company that rewards his efforts and we finally have some breathing room.

 

I don't object to there being help for those who truly need it and have nowhere else to go (though I'd prefer it came from the private sector and/or charitable organizations and churches), but I do feel that the system as it is now makes it way too easy to depend on public assistance, and fear it getting worse as we look to the government to solve more and more of our problems.

[LG Gone Wild]

simply because it is interesting. Socialist is the right word but using it to describe a system shouldn't offend anyone as you didn't use it as a pejorative.

 

One thing I've wondered is that although Canada has a medical net, I've always understood that Canadians cross the border to medical treatment. So good/bad is the medical net?

 

Do you all remember news stories about the UK dentistry problem? A private dental practiced opened and there were lines out the ying yang to get an appt. for basic dental care. It did not show socialized dentistry in a good light.

 

Yes, progressive taxes hardly inspire self-sufficiency. OTH, it's kind of neat to get paid for having children.

[teamturner]

But there is a cost for socialized medicine, etc, and part of that cost is the potential for losing the motivation for hard work.

 

That to me is the major problem with socialism. What is the motivation to work hard, start your own company, grow a business to the point you can hire other workers, etc. if the government has the right to take away your profits to pay for all of its government programs? It's called redistribution of wealth. Even France is backing away from socialism and becoming more capitalistic while we here in the USA are making capitalism out to be bad and socialism the cure for all the world's problems. It's very troubling to me.

[Heather in Savannah]

LG Gone Wild, although I am not Jennifer, possibly I can respond to your question. I am a Cdn in the US.....I come from a different province, where we do not have to pay a cent in terms of "premiums" to obtain health coverage. Now we do not get drugs, dental, physio, optometry, etc. covered. For those items you must either buy an extended health individual policy or be covered through work. Basically, if you see any Dr., stay in the hospital (ward coverage only) or need tests done, there is no cost to the patient. Your eligibility is not linked to your employment nor state of your health....only your immigration and residency state.

Now, regarding Cdn's coming to the US for medical treatment? In 49 yrs of living in Canada, I have not met a single individual who has gone to the US for care. You will hear of these scenario's in the US media....I suspect they are stirred up by Insurance companies who have a vested interest in using the "Appeal to Fear" fallacy.

It's not a perfect system, but it is wonderful to never have to worry about being refused medical coverage(my situation here in the US) nor having to worry about becoming bankrupt as a result of medical costs.

[Jenny in Atl]

Denmark 'happiest place on earth'

If it is happiness you are seeking a move to Denmark could be in order, according to the first scientist to make a world map of happiness.

Adrian White, from the UK's University of Leicester, used the responses of 80,000 people worldwide to map out subjective wellbeing.

 

Denmark came top, followed closely by Switzerland and Austria. The UK ranked 41st. Zimbabwe and Burundi came bottom.

 

A nation's level of happiness was most closely associated with health levels.

 

 

 

Mr White, who is an analytic social psychologist at the university, said: "When people are asked if they are happy with their lives, people in countries with good healthcare, a higher GDP [gross domestic product] per capita, and access to education were much more likely to report being happy."

 

He acknowledged that these measures of happiness are not perfect, but said they were the best available and were the measures that politicians were talking of using to measure the relative performance of each country.

 

He said it would be possible to use these parameters to track changes in happiness, and what events may cause that, such as the effects a war, famine or national success might have on the happiness of people in a particular country.

 

Measuring happiness

 

He said: "There is increasing political interest in using measures of happiness as a national indicator in conjunction with measures of wealth.

 

"A recent BBC survey found that 81% of the population think the government should focus on making us happier rather than wealthier.

 

"It is worth remembering that the UK is doing relatively well in this area, coming 41st out of 178 nations."

 

HOW THE NATIONS RANKED ON HAPPINESS

1st - Denmark

2nd - Switzerland

3rd - Austria

4th - Iceland

5th - The Bahamas

23rd - USA

41st - UK

90th - Japan

178th - Burundi

He said he was surprised to see countries in Asia scoring so low, with China 82nd, Japan 90th and India 125th, because these are countries that are thought as having a strong sense of collective identity which other researchers have associated with well-being.

 

"It is also notable that many of the largest countries in terms of population do quite badly," he said.

 

He said: "The frustrations of modern life, and the anxieties of the age, seem to be much less significant compared to the health, financial and educational needs in other parts of the world."

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/5224306.stm

[Sarah CB]

LG Gone Wild, although I am not Jennifer, possibly I can respond to your question. I am a Cdn in the US.....I come from a different province, where we do not have to pay a cent in terms of "premiums" to obtain health coverage. Now we do not get drugs, dental, physio, optometry, etc. covered. For those items you must either buy an extended health individual policy or be covered through work. Basically, if you see any Dr., stay in the hospital (ward coverage only) or need tests done, there is no cost to the patient. Your eligibility is not linked to your employment nor state of your health....only your immigration and residency state.

Now, regarding Cdn's coming to the US for medical treatment? In 49 yrs of living in Canada, I have not met a single individual who has gone to the US for care. You will hear of these scenario's in the US media....I suspect they are stirred up by Insurance companies who have a vested interest in using the "Appeal to Fear" fallacy.

It's not a perfect system, but it is wonderful to never have to worry about being refused medical coverage(my situation here in the US) nor having to worry about becoming bankrupt as a result of medical costs.

 

Yes - as a Canadian I'd agree with this. People don't go to the US for treatment although I did know someone who went to get an MRI because they could simply pay a bunch of money and get it right away instead of being in a wait list. The biggest problem with Canadian health care is probably the wait times involved for certain specialists and specialized testing.

 

But, we have fantastic doctors and we don't have to pay for them : ) I can make an appointment with my doctor without ever worrying about how much it's going to cost, I can have my OB intensive pregnancy complete with multiple hosptial stays and an induction without ever having to think about paying for a cent of it or dealing with insurance and I know that no matter what happens to any of us we'll be able to get great care.

 

And I do actually appreciate the gov'ts support of kids and families. Our newest "giveaway" is the child care allowance. I think it's specific to my province, but every child under six gets $100 per month to be put towards child care. For sahm's it's $100 per month to offset the cost of being at home instead of in the work force. That allowance isn't tied to the income of the family - it goes to everyone.

 

Oh and don't forget the 12 month maternity leave - if you were working a certain number of hours up to the time you leave for maternity you are eligible for 55% (tax free, I think) of your income for 12 months while you enjoy your baby.

 

I like socialism. :tongue_smilie:

 

Sarah

[danielle]

Hmmm, using the percentage of tax rate you paid on your income and applying it to mine, I'd have saved about $5500 in tax by running our business in Canada instead of here, and got the health care to boot. That's federal only, we also have state income tax. Makes me dream about moving.

Danielle

[LG Gone Wild]

I am a Cdn in the US.....I come from a different province, where we do not have to pay a cent in terms of "premiums" to obtain health coverage. Now we do not get drugs, dental, physio, optometry, etc. covered. For those items you must either buy an extended health individual policy or be covered through work. Basically, if you see any Dr., stay in the hospital (ward coverage only) or need tests done, there is no cost to the patient.

 

This fits my world view...you win here and lose there. Limited breadth of coverage but no copays for very standard fare.

 

 

Your eligibility is not linked to your employment nor state of your health....only your immigration and residency state.

 

In 49 yrs of living in Canada, I have not met a single individual who has gone to the US for care. You will hear of these scenario's in the US media....I suspect they are stirred up by Insurance companies who have a vested interest in using the "Appeal to Fear" fallacy.

 

What would insurance companies gain by that? It's not a rhetorical question.

 

It's not a perfect system, but it is wonderful to never have to worry about being refused medical coverage(my situation here in the US) nor having to worry about becoming bankrupt as a result of medical costs.

 

The system you described shows limited coverage, you know, for eyes, teeth, medication, hospital care. It seems as if a person could go bankrupt there too. As for being refused coverage over here, could you get coverage through your dh's work?

 

I am not trying nitpick. I am trying to understand something I know very little about.

 

 

 

I tried to put my replies in italic but I don't know if it will work.

 

ETA: ACK! That was dumb, the whole bloody post is in italics. I'll try to switch to green or something.

[Slartibartfast]

Yes - as a Canadian I'd agree with this. People don't go to the US for treatment although I did know someone who went to get an MRI because they could simply pay a bunch of money and get it right away instead of being in a wait list. The biggest problem with Canadian health care is probably the wait times involved for certain specialists and specialized testing.

 

 

 

IME there is a wait time for certain specialists here anyways. It takes me at least four months to get in to see my specialist.

[Aggie]

Thanks, Jennifer, for sharing this. It is heartbreaking, isn't it?

 

I would sure love to talk to some of the US citizens who participated in that poll and see the questions they had to answer. Does Denmark have an immigration problem? Would they invite all the unhappy US citizens to live and work there? :)

 

 

"I don't object to there being help for those who truly need it and have nowhere else to go (though I'd prefer it came from the private sector and/or charitable organizations and churches), but I do feel that the system as it is now makes it way too easy to depend on public assistance, and fear it getting worse as we look to the government to solve more and more of our problems."

 

I agree, Rosy. When people start donating money (volunteer charity, I don't mean taxes :))to the federal gov't programs, I'll start believing the programs work efficiently.

 

Aggie

[Country Girl]

We had the opportunity to live in Canada for 2 years and never met anyone who opted to go to the US for healthcare. The worst "horror" story we heard was a neighbor who had waited close to a year for elective surgery on his nose for sinus issues. While I'll admit, this probably would have been attended to more quickly in the US, it really wasn't a major issue. I think most US residents have a very skewed view of socialized healthcare systems because we only hear the horror stories on the news. What we forget to take into account is the horror stories that are occurring here too.... people who can't afford even basic care, medicines, etc. and are literally dying because of it.

 

While living in Canada we were also blessed with our first child and the medical care we received was excellent. This is also true of our second child who was also born while living in another country with a socialized system. We truly felt that the most sincere and caring doctors we have ever dealt with were the ones we used within these socialized systems. I realize this is a complete generalization and will probably get me in trouble but.... we often wondered if the fact that the monetary incentive wasn't quite as high as it is here in the US helped weed out those who were only in it for the money, leaving more doctors who were truly interested in the medical field. (Please understand that this statement is not meant to imply that all US doctors are money hungry, non-caring people.... I know they are not! However, there is likely a higher number of doctors in the US who choose the medical field based on salary than in countries where the salaries aren't as high.) Interestingly though, is that in the province we were in, there was a major problem that they dubbed the "Brain Drain". This was doctors leaving the province to go to the US to work because they could get payed so much more.

[Sahamamama]

Maxim: You get more of what you subsidize and less of what you tax.

 

High Subsidy on Fertility == More Fertility

High Subsidy on Taking It Easy == More Taking It Easy

High Tax on Productivity == Less Productivity

High Tax on Property Ownership == Less Property Ownership

[Colleen in NS]

I've already figured out that if I took a part time job this spring it could easily end up being a total wash. We could stop trying so darn hard, sit back and relax and get all the important things paid for instead.

 

But there is a cost for socialized medicine, etc, and part of that cost is the potential for losing the motivation for hard work.

 

I'm an American who has lived in Canada for 15 1/2 years. It was very hard for me at first to comprehend that I didn't have to work extra hard to earn necessary health care coverage, 6 months (now up to 12 months) maternity leave, and a tax free monthly payment as help for raising my children (and Sarah, that $100 for kids under 6 is across Canada - I got that for 4 months, too). It blew my mind for years, and made me feel guilty when I'd see my American family/friends working hard to get medical coverage, or going into massive debt for hospital bills, or going back to work at 10 weeks after a c-section (which I could not imagine, after having a section myself).

 

But gradually my thinking changed, and I realized that I do work hard, at raising my family and stretching our small income. My kids will eventually go out into society and contribute in many ways, as will I when I'm done raising them. Dh works hard at his self-employment and makes enough now that, combined with the child tax benefit and free health care, we are able to pay our bills, feed/clothe/educate ourselves frugally, and have a bit in an emergency fund.

 

So, I can see why you'd say the potential to lose the motivation to work hard is there, but I think that potential is there if people are on welfare in Canada or the U.S., too. I am very, very grateful for the way things work here in Canada - it has given us the opportunity to raise a family without running frantic for years. I guess it's hard work either way - you work hard to earn a big income, or you work hard to raise a family and make a smaller income stretch. I'm glad that here I can choose to focus on my family, with the help of the automatic support network.

[Colleen in NS]

We truly felt that the most sincere and caring doctors we have ever dealt with were the ones we used within these socialized systems. I realize this is a complete generalization and will probably get me in trouble but.... we often wondered if the fact that the monetary incentive wasn't quite as high as it is here in the US helped weed out those who were only in it for the money, leaving more doctors who were truly interested in the medical field. (Please understand that this statement is not meant to imply that all US doctors are money hungry, non-caring people.... I know they are not! However, there is likely a higher number of doctors in the US who choose the medical field based on salary than in countries where the salaries aren't as high.)

 

I experienced this within the first 3 months of living in Canada. Just before I left New Jersey, I saw a doc there for heart palpitations I was having. He wanted to do all sorts of tests on me, and I just could not afford them, so I skipped them. Went to Canada on a student visa, found out I could have free coverage, saw a Canadian doctor. He was very thorough in his exam, and sent me for one test. I remember asking him why not all the other tests that my NJ doc had recommended, and he replied that here in Canada doctors tend to take one step at a time, because there wasn't the high risk of law suits like in the U.S. if a doctor *didn't* recommend lots of tests to diagnose. It was eye-opening to me to hear that.

[Colleen in NS]

I tried to put my replies in italic but I don't know if it will work.

 

ETA: ACK! That was dumb, the whole bloody post is in italics. I'll try to switch to green or something.

 

Can you put your replies in a dark colour? I can't read them. Thanks!

[Once]

My experience has been going from Canada to the US. I can tell you a different side to it. When we left Canada we were totally debt free. We were travelling and dd had a mole close to her eye that required plasitic surgery. It was one of those red moles that infants get and it sat high up by the bridge of her nose, resulting in a tear on one corner when she rubbed her eye when tired. It bled alot and would not clot and heal. So, when we were days away from leaving the country the doctor took her lunch break to give dd emergency plastic surgery. No long waiting list, no big bill in the mail, just genuine human kindness.

 

Within two years, we were $15,000 in debt and disagreeing about wheather dd should go to the doctor for a cough that she had had for 10 days. We lived in an apartment that often lost heat and we paid almost $1000 a month for it in NY state. We were elegible income wise for all manners of subsidy but since dh was on a work Visa we could not apply. We could not even get WIC. We paid a very high price (financially and emotionally) for the post doc opportunity dh took for three years.

 

I do not think that if a country gives payments in the form of child tax credit it is encouraging higher fertility rates. In fact, the US has a fertiltiy rate of 2.10 per woman and Canada has a rate of 1.57. This indicates to me that Canadians are having smaller families in spite of the Child Tax Credits given them.

 

I too have never known a Canadian to enter the US for healthcare. Several of my family members have received excellent care for cancer treatment in very quick time in Canada. And one beat extrodinary odds. I'd love to return but it is not possible right now.

[ekarl2]

 

But, we have fantastic doctors and we don't have to pay for them : )

 

Sarah

 

YES, YOU DO! I'm sorry, but I can't let this pass by. Every Canadian pays for those doctors. Remember that saying about a free lunch not being free ...

[Heather in the Kootenays]

I don't think they've inspired many people I know to work less either. The child benefit HAS allowed people I know to stay home with their young children instead of working outside the home - something I'm glad to see encouraged and happy to pay taxes to do. Some of them are even homeschooling moms.

 

I've read stories about people going to the US for medical treatment but like other posters have never personally met someone who felt the need to do this or even had "friends of friends" who have gone south for treatment.

 

You're right - there are probably some freeloaders but I think you'll find those in most countries.

[cathmom]

Canada appeals to me more and more. I know several people online who are quite happy there. And I can't even imagine not having to worry about paying for health care or health insurance. What a blessing that would be!

[Rosie_0801]

Perhaps the term you were looking for was "welfare state."

A friend of ours was American and his mum came to visit. She had some sort of emergency and had to go to hospital. They explained very gently and sorrowfully that being a non-resident, she'd have to pay full fee; and she laughed in their faces. It was still much cheaper than she'd pay at home.

Our system is pretty similar to Canada, I think. We see healthcare as a right. I've never heard anyone suggest that even "dole bludgers" have their basic healthcare taken away.

Rosie

[JennifersLost]

I got all into my original post and then suddenly had to leave at the end, LOL.

 

So, I want to say that a lot of what I'm posting has to do with our constant search for the "sane" way to live.

 

In other words - when we left California we were both working 50 - 60 hours/week and not making it. We were HIGHLY motivated (LOL) to earn more, but we couldn't figure it out and in the end had to give up.

 

What's left us so confused here is not understanding the structure of how we'll be taxed and what benefits we'll receive and when. If you're at the bottom of the economic scale it's great. But then you slide sideways a long way before you go up the scale, if that makes sense. It makes climbing the upward mobility ladder that much higher.

 

Now, as to the healthcare - I'm in a small, northern town. It is wonderful to be able to go to the doctor whenever a child is ill. On the other hand, I no longer go to a gynecologist because there are only two in town and I refuse to see either of them again.

 

My fil waited for two years for hip replacement surgery. Two agonizing years. He waited so long for ankle surgery that his bones disintegrated and now his ankle will have to be fused. Sometimes we have to wait nearly a year to see a specialist. Other times our only choice is to pay for plane tickets and hotel accomodations to Vancouver out of pocket. (Not cheap).

 

I have flat-out told my dh that I will NOT retire here for that reason. But I imagine things are different if you live further south near one of the bigger cities. I think most people don't go to the US for care they're not receiving because they couldn't possibly afford to.

 

I don't mean to diss Canada at all. There is good and bad with both systems, obviously. When I was a single mom, the help I could have received had I been here would have been tremendous. Now, in my current position, I'm frustrated.

[tibbyl]

One thing I've wondered is that although Canada has a medical net, I've always understood that Canadians cross the border to medical treatment. So good/bad is the medical net?

 

Do you all remember news stories about the UK dentistry problem? A private dental practiced opened and there were lines out the ying yang to get an appt. for basic dental care. It did not show socialized dentistry in a good light.

 

If citizens crossing borders and/or going abroad for healthcare is an indicator of the effectiveness of a nation's healthcare system, then the U.S.'s system is sick too. Americans do so for both urgent and elective procedures.

 

Americans get dental work and plastic surgeries, as well as other procedures, done in Mexico because cost is lower. Americans are going to India for coronary surgeries. And these are just a few examples. Oh yeah, some Americans sneak their way into the Canadian healthcare system.

[Kelli in TN]

"dole bludgers"

 

 

Dole bludger?

 

What a cute term!!

 

How can I work that into my American vocabulary?

[Rose in BC]

12 years ago my dad was diagnosed with leukemia that required immediate hospitalization in a cancer clinic, in isolation for three months of intensive chemotherapy treatment. I remember thinking at that time our family would have been broke had we to come up with the money to pay for the medical services that were required.

 

2 years ago I had a hysterectomy in the small, northern community next to my town. I visited my family doctor on the last day of June complaining of fairly generic symptoms. By Thursday of that week I was back at the doctor's with a diagnosis of severe anemia (transfusable levels) and a referral to a specialist which I saw within two weeks, 40 minutes from home. By the middle of August I had a surgery date and by mid-September I had surgery (five days hospitalization) that changed my life tremendously for the positive. Again, no worries of whether I could afford this.

 

Last month my son fell from a tree. I called our doctor at 4 pm. Saw him at 4:20 by 4:40 he was in a sling with an x-ray requisition. Again, no monies out of pocket.

 

Of course I realize I am paying for these service through some medical premiums (an employee benefit at my husband's work) and through taxes but my experience living in this town my whole life has been incredibly positive. Not perfect, but very accommodating.

 

Living in a small northern town is definitely a lifestyle choice we've made and it does come with some restrictions. Our choices are limited but the trade off includes things such as affordable housing (having recently visited greater Vancouver area and listened to my friends and family talk about housing costs, really brought to life this reality).

 

As for the child tax credits -- my husband and I do not at all consider these credits when making decisions surrounding employment or other self-betterment things. In no way do these credits unmotivate me to do my best. I understand the criticisms but I think motivation is an individual issue -- either you are a motivated person or you're not. I don't believe that a motivated person would become unmotivated as a result of these credits nor do I think an unmotivated person will suddenly become motivated as a result of these credits. I'd also wager that motivation issues exist in all cultures and societies.

 

I'm proud to be Canadian and happy with my quality of life (well a little more sunshine would be nice).

 

Not scientific, just some personal anecdotes. Good question though Jennifer. We need to think these things through and consider the ramifications of accepting things in our society. I will ponder this some more.

[Laura Corin]

Denmark 'happiest place on earth'

If it is happiness you are seeking a move to Denmark could be in order, according to the first scientist to make a world map of happiness.

Adrian White, from the UK's University of Leicester, used the responses of 80,000 people worldwide to map out subjective wellbeing.

 

Denmark came top, followed closely by Switzerland and Austria. The UK ranked 41st. Zimbabwe and Burundi came bottom.

 

 

I think there is also an issue of national personality here. British people love to grumble - why else would the weather be such a common topic of conversation.....

 

Laura

[Melissa in Australia]

Australia has a very similar system.

I worked before having kids, I worked part time when I had a few children, and now I am homeschooling them, I enjoy not having to go out to work. I look at it as getting paid to educate my kids:D.

the amount of money goes down as the children get older, and stops when they are 16.

I like having my medical paid for. People who don't want to go on waiting lists for specialists can always pay for private health insurance and have next to no waiting time for their appointments.:001_smile:

[Heather in the Kootenays]

I've always considered those plane tickets and hotels part of living in rural BC. It's a price I pay willingly and in turn I have a huge house on an acre and a half in a great location for less than half of a duplex in a blah part of Vancouver as well as excellent food at half price.

 

I think rural Canada is way underserved mostly because 20 years ago some universities decided to cut way back on the Doctors they were training. It's a problem.

[Tabrett]

Question for those living in Canada?

 

So you own you houses or rent? If you rent, does the government own the house or an individual?

 

This may sound like a stupid question, but I'm just curious.

[Heather in the Kootenays]

Most people I know own their own homes. People who don't own their homes rent them but they rent them from private individuals. Governments (federal, provincial, municipal) here don't own homes with the exception of what we call "social" housing - apartment buildings with subsidized rent for low income people. Even then I believe that most social housing is owned and operated by charities.

 

Of course, there are a few exceptions - some heritage places, the Prime Minister's home etc.

[Heather in the Kootenays]

And Canada's 10th.

[chiguirre]

This has been a very timely discussion for me. My bil and soon-to-be sil are in the process of emigrating to Canada. Since stb sil is a pathologist and bil is an engineer with an MBA, it looks like they will be approved and will move next year. This was a tough choice for them to make because they'll be pretty far from their families in Venezuela and the southern US, but they are excited about making a life in a stable, welcoming country. I'm sure I'll hear a lot more about Canadian healthcare, childcare and taxation in the next few years.

[PiCO]

If citizens crossing borders and/or going abroad for healthcare is an indicator of the effectiveness of a nation's healthcare system, then the U.S.'s system is sick too. Americans do so for both urgent and elective procedures.

 

Americans get dental work and plastic surgeries, as well as other procedures, done in Mexico because cost is lower. Americans are going to India for coronary surgeries. And these are just a few examples. Oh yeah, some Americans sneak their way into the Canadian healthcare system.

 

This is true. Why is this?

 

I think liability insurance and lawsuits are the main culprits driving up the cost of medical care in the US. I also think medical insurance companies drive up the costs a little bit, because every medical office needs to hire a staff specifically to deal with insurance companies.

 

There is no perfect system yet, and I have no idea what the perfect medical system might look like.

[laylamcb]

Americans get dental work and plastic surgeries, as well as other procedures, done in Mexico because cost is lower. Americans are going to India for coronary surgeries. And these are just a few examples. Oh yeah, some Americans sneak their way into the Canadian healthcare system.

 

Um, how 'bout Poland? My Polish SIL has had all of her (extensive) dental work done in Poland. Now I'll grant you that her brother is a dentist, so she only pays for "parts," so to speak. :001_smile: But even the costly airfare doesn't offset how much cheaper the procedures are there as compared to here. Interesting!

[Heather in the Kootenays]

I think the local clinics finally stopped accepting non-Canadians except for in emergencies.

 

And Costa Rica is also a popular spot for medical tourists.

[Heather in the Kootenays]

Research showed them that the high libabilty insurance more than made up for any increase in pay.

[LG Gone Wild]

If citizens crossing borders and/or going abroad for healthcare is an indicator of the effectiveness of a nation's healthcare system, then the U.S.'s system is sick too. Americans do so for both urgent and elective procedures.

 

Americans get dental work and plastic surgeries, as well as other procedures, done in Mexico because cost is lower. Americans are going to India for coronary surgeries. And these are just a few examples. Oh yeah, some Americans sneak their way into the Canadian healthcare system.

 

That's true. I would just quibble that there is a difference between cost and access. My example using the UK was about access.

[JennifersLost]

Rose, I'm kind of wishing I'd sat on this another day before I posted, because I definitely posted "in the heat of the moment" yesterday.

 

You're right - it's not a bad system, it's a DIFFERENT system. It felt like a blow to us because first we earned the extra money and that felt great.

 

Then tax time came and $12,500 of it disappeared.

 

Then we got the notice from the medical premium people saying our premium had gone up.

 

Then we received the notice about not getting the gst? thing anymore.

 

And lastly we got the notice that our CCTB payments had been slashed.

 

So it literally felt like a quick jump forward and then a long slide back. That took the wind out of our sails. Since we're self-employed with a very variable income, next year we might pay no taxes and have those CCTB payments come back. There definitely is more of a safety net.

 

The aspects of rural living could easily be the same in Alaska, too. I really like my optometrist and dentist. Both gynecologists had me leaving their offices in tears. I wish I had a few more choices. I go to the doctor more often here for the things I can get treated. I am not getting much help at all for my allergic ds because I need to go to Vancouver. When I'm old I want to be closer to more care.

 

I apologize to all the Canadians I might have offended in this post. Even after four years I'm not beyond a little culture shock now and then.

[Laura Corin]

 

And Costa Rica is also a popular spot for medical tourists.

 

We went to the Bumrungrad hospital for various small things, and the place was full of Americans visiting for procedures.

 

Laura

[mcconnellboys]

I think C.S. Lewis puts it very succinctly in "Screwtape Proposes a Toast" when he puts words into Screwtape's mouth which intimate that the right of everyone to be equal may make everyone equal in mediocrity, in the end. Might seem a bit Randian, but the right to succeed (and profit from that success) is a delicately balanced thing which can be blown all to shreds very easily.....

[chiguirre]

I've never run into medical tourists in Venezuela, but it is true that paying full price for private medical care there is often a bit cheaper than paying the US copay. This holds for drugs as well. If we ever needed elective surgery (or something that we could travel with) I would seriously consider going to Caracas rather than having things done in Houston. It's not so much a matter of money, it's more the level of care that you receive and the way doctors relate to their patients. I do stock up on drugs when we visit because of the price diference.

[Once]

Not living in Canada here but did for 30 plus years. I think I can still answer this.

 

Many Canadians own there own homes with the help of a mortgage just like the US. Last time I was living in Canada the mortage companies required 20 percent down payment to start a mortage (although I knew of people that got around that with a second mortgage for part of the down payment). One of the great ways 20 percent can be accomplished is that the companies can allow you to use your RRSP (like a 401K) as down payment for first time homebuyers as long as you promise to replay in ten years. So people can manage 20 percent if they use their retirement savings plan. Canadians tend to have more savings than Americans, so it works. Canadians are very house proud and I have alot of fond memories of my parents and the neighbours gardening and keeping up the property. Most of the neighbourhoods there are very well cared for, large cities have pockets but they are noticably different.

 

Rentals are owned by private people and companies much like here in the US. There are often areas which are commonly known as subsidized housing. I beleive these are still owned privately just a lot less expensive an some money *may* come from the gov.

 

HTH

[LG Gone Wild]

Rose, I'm kind of wishing I'd sat on this another day before I posted, because I definitely posted "in the heat of the moment" yesterday.

 

You're right - it's not a bad system, it's a DIFFERENT system. It felt like a blow to us because first we earned the extra money and that felt great.

 

Then tax time came and $12,500 of it disappeared.

 

Then we got the notice from the medical premium people saying our premium had gone up.

 

Then we received the notice about not getting the gst? thing anymore.

 

And lastly we got the notice that our CCTB payments had been slashed.

 

So it literally felt like a quick jump forward and then a long slide back. That took the wind out of our sails. Since we're self-employed with a very variable income, next year we might pay no taxes and have those CCTB payments come back. There definitely is more of a safety net.

 

The aspects of rural living could easily be the same in Alaska, too. I really like my optometrist and dentist. Both gynecologists had me leaving their offices in tears. I wish I had a few more choices. I go to the doctor more often here for the things I can get treated. I am not getting much help at all for my allergic ds because I need to go to Vancouver. When I'm old I want to be closer to more care.

 

I apologize to all the Canadians I might have offended in this post. Even after four years I'm not beyond a little culture shock now and then.

 

:grouphug:

[Country Girl]

Canadians are very house proud and I have alot of fond memories of my parents and the neighbours gardening and keeping up the property. Most of the neighbourhoods there are very well cared for, large cities have pockets but they are noticably different.

 

HTH

 

You know, I never really made the connection while we were living there but you are right.... the houses are, in general, very well kept. Everyone in the neighborhood where we lived had beautiful yards, gardens, and landscaping (and this wasn't a high income neighborhood by any means). It was something that dh and I talked about often as we'd take walks through the city, how beautiful the outside of the homes and yards were.

[Heather in the Kootenays]

Offended might be a bit too strong. Perhaps it was more that we all saw a chance to educate and leapt at it.

 

I'm sure many of us are just as astonished by the American system as you are with ours.

[LG Gone Wild]

Offended might be a bit too strong. Perhaps it was more that we all saw a chance to educate and leapt at it.

 

I'm sure many of us are just as astonished by the American system as you are with ours.

 

Ditto.

[Amy in NH]

What is the motivation to work hard, start your own company, grow a business to the point you can hire other workers, etc. if the government has the right to take away your profits to pay for all of its government programs? It's called redistribution of wealth.

 

What about personal satisfaction/intrinsic motivation?

 

What about moral motivation?

 

I just don't see why the motivation to have more "stuff" should be the sole driving force of a society, nor why a job like, say... teacher of future citizens and leaders (thereby impacting all of society) should be less rewarded than say... guy who sits in big corner office and makes decisions about a company (impacting a small percentage of society by profiting shareholders).

 

The financial motivation offered by a capitalistic society doesn't take into account the moral responsibility we all have to each other as members of a common society.

 

Perhaps people in our society aren't doing the job they are best suited for, or the job that society really needs to have done, because they are pursuing financial motivation instead of their heart or the community's need?

 

I think there's more to these issues than many people are willing to/want to think about.

 

Edited to add: Or maybe it's just a different mindset/belief system about the way people should live or the way societies should function? Because we are coming at that system with our capitalist beliefs, it doesn't make sense to us. Whereas, if we took for granted that people valued things other than "things" & money, and that we are all important individuals who should benefit from food & medicine regardless of our income, perhaps it would make more sense to us?

 

I, personally, think there's a great benefit to having the government support families/people who want to "start your own company, grow a business to the point you can hire other workers" for larger motivations than financial ones.

[dawn of ns]

Question for those living in Canada?

 

So you own you houses or rent? If you rent, does the government own the house or an individual?

 

This may sound like a stupid question, but I'm just curious.

 

Not stupid at all!

 

Really, it's the same as how it works in the US. The only difference is that there's more regulation so that some of the mortgages that have been causing trouble down there simply couldn't happen here...at least to the same extent.

 

Most stuff is probably pretty similar.

 

Just a note on medicare in case it comes up...Canada does not have socialized medicine. Canada's system is a single payer system and what that means is simply that all Canadians are covered by a single insurer - the government. Doctor's offices are private businesses, not run by government.

[Amy in NH]

It is very hard for someone to work hard to get off public assistance only to end up worse off than they were before.

 

I do know people who have had this situation. My own family is right on the border of losing the assistance we receive (which we really do need), so that we will be worse off if we make more money. That type of system doesn't make sense to me.

 

However, I don't think that is what Jennifer the Good Witch's situation was. If her family made $15,000 income + $12,000 payments, that would be $27,000 total. If her family then made $66,000 - $12,500 - $7,000 - 1,000, that would be $45,500. Although she wasn't as much better off as if she'd kept the full $66,000, she was still *way* better off than she was to begin with. That is not the same thing as being backward, in my opinion.

[dawn of ns]

Amy in NH - I agree with a lot of what you've said but I'd just add that I think Canada IS a capitalistic society to a great degree. It's just that the US is a capitalistic society to an extreme. I tend to think the US is at an extreme on a lot of issues (the US definition of liberal for instance seems to be barely moderate to a lot of us outside the US) but doesn't seem to recognize that because it rarely seems to compare itself to other nations.