Garga Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 We live in an area with a dialect where instead of saying, "The car needs to be washed," people say, "The car needs washed." I don't like it. At all. According to Grammar Girl, it's all over this area and the people who speak this way don't see anything wrong with it. I do see something wrong with it and would correct my children if they started speaking this way. BUT THEN. Today my son ran out of pants. I said to him, "Put whatever pants you want washed in the hamper." My dh said, "AHA! You just said 'want washed'! You hate it when people say that and now you're doing it!" Am I?!? Have I turned to the dark side??? It sounds absolutely correct to say, "Put whatever pants you want washed in the hamper," and yet I can't figure out why it is correct. Should I have said, "Put whatever pants you want to have washed in the hamper"? What part of speech is "washed" in my sentence? This is driving me batty. Why does my sentence sound correct to me, but when people say, "The car needs washed" it sounds incorrect? What's the difference? There's a difference, right? Right?? Oh, I think I might have lived here too long. :( 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornblower Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 no, it's different but I'm not sure off the top of my head the technical reasons why. in car needs washed - your verb is needs & as grammar girl says, most standard construction would call for a 'to be' in there or an 'ing' ending. That car needs washing. in your sentence, 'put' is your verb & 'want washed' is modifying your noun... fwiw, i've never heard of the car needs washed & it sounds completely wrong. Your sentence sounds completely correct. It's a different construction. The things I like best are dogs and cake. The clothes I need washed are in the hamper. The items you want painted go here. Sorry can't help with the grammar details - allergy season is upon us & my head is snurfly. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garga Posted March 18, 2015 Author Share Posted March 18, 2015 Yes! I agree with you that my sentence is not following the odd dialect they have around here. There have been a number of people viewing this thread and it's heartening to see that everyone hasn't jumped on my sentence as being wrong. If it was wrong, I'm sure people who don't use this dialect would immediately see it. I guess all the people who viewed this don't think I'm wrong but can't quite explain why I'm right. I've been thinking about it and it may to do with determining what is the simple subject/simple predicate of the sentence and what is modifying what. I hope a grammar person comes on here and diagrams these sentences for us and explains the parts of speech that the different "washed" are in each sentence. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garga Posted March 18, 2015 Author Share Posted March 18, 2015 fwiw, i've never heard of the car needs washed & it sounds completely wrong. Your sentence sounds completely correct. It's a different construction. The things I like best are dogs and cake. The clothes I need washed are in the hamper. The items you want painted go here. Sorry can't help with the grammar details - allergy season is upon us & my head is snurfly. I'd never heard of it until we moved here. It's everywhere. It is like fingernails on a chalkboard to me. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornblower Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 I would just say that "want washed" is merely elliptical, and "to be" is simply assumed. Neither way is technically wrong. However, I will point out that clothes go inTO a hamper, not in. *wink* interesting. But she's using put & not go. "Put it in the bag/put it in the hamper/put it in the trunk" doesn't sound odd to me. With 'go' I'd be more likely to say into. "Those things go into the hamper." Do you say into for everything? Just curious... 'The dishes go in/into the dishwasher after each meal.' which would you say? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 For what it's worth, I say 'the clothes you want washed' so it's not just local to you. The missing bit from the two sentences is different in my usage: The car needs (to be) washed Put the clothes in the hamper that you want (to have) washed. I don't know whether this makes the difference or not. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaKim Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 That link was quite interesting! Apparently, where I live here in western VA, we have a pocket of people who speak like people in PA. Everybody here says "needs washed." Never thought about it at all before seeing it here as something that is apparently not common. Also, from the article, the word "anymore" used instead of "nowadays" is used in the same area. That is another thing we use here all the time. The thing about it being Scotch-Irish was interesting too, as I had mentioned before in that other thread that my mom's generation and older have some pronunciations that sound very Scottish (house, out, etc). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 The thing about it being Scotch-Irish was interesting too, as I had mentioned before in that other thread that my mom's generation and older have some pronunciations that sound very Scottish (house, out, etc). I always have to look up what Scotch-Irish means, because it's not a term that is used here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 You're in Western PA I'm guessing? I haven't lived there for 20 years but I still skip the “to be“ all the time. I actually don't think it is poor grammar, it is colloquial speech. Like y'all . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Alyssa* Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 Personally, I'm a big fan of the verb "to be", so I typically include them in my speech and writing. However, I have dropped "to be" from my speech when I speak quickly. Neither of them sound right or wrong to me, just a matter of preference.Right now, I'm reading a historical fiction series based on the state of Pennsylvania and more specifically, Pittsburgh. It includes the old Scot-Irish talk, which I find humorous and fun to read. It made sense to them, so I think that's all that matters. Can your audience understand you? If we can understand what someone is saying without "to be", I don't see anything wrong with it, unless you're writing a book or something. Then I would think "to be" should be included, because it just sounds more proper without really knowing why. I'd be interested in knowing why if anyone can answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plansrme Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 Your sentence is correct because it is acceptable to omit "that" at the beginning of a relative or subordinating clause. It is not okay to omit the "to be" at the beginning of an infinitive. "Washed" does not stand alone as a direct object of "I want," because it is an adjective, but an infinitive can act as a noun and, therefore, as a direct object. Oh never mind! I am on my phone and in a hurry and not reading very closely. I will have to revisit my rationale when I get back, but I still think you are correct. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Alyssa* Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Your sentence is correct because it is acceptable to omit "that" at the beginning of a relative or subordinating clause. It is not okay to omit the "to be" at the beginning of an infinitive. "Washed" does not stand alone as a direct object of "I want," because it is an adjective, but an infinitive can act as a noun and, therefore, as a direct object. Oh never mind! I am on my phone and in a hurry and not reading very closely. I will have to revisit my rationale when I get back, but I still think you are correct. Not to change the subject, but I had a professor who boldly proclaimed if anyone in the class used "that" in their papers where it should not be used, they would promptly receive an "F". I was mortified to use the word at all, so I would completely reword the sentence to avoid it at all costs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teachermom2834 Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 I live in the south were this is common and drives me crazy. 20 years and I am still not used to it and no one in my family says it. I have, however, picked up "y'all" :laugh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 I always have to look up what Scotch-Irish means, because it's not a term that is used here. Interesting. I had always been told that Scots-Irish (Dad was adamant that Scots was for people and Scotch was for the drink) were Protestants who had immigrated to Ireland from Scotland before then coming to the US. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyJoy Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 I'm pretty sure you've been corrupted. I just spent way too long researching this and the evidence seems to be against you :). That is the danger of being the grammar-loving, speech-correcting mom; they find the chinks in your armor! (My mother the grammarian was a target for students and daughters alike. My dad was smart enough to stay out of it.) I do agree that it doesn't sound as wrong with "want". Perhaps this is because we use "need" more often than "want" to stress the true necessity of the task rather than our personal desire that it be accomplished. BTW, I hear this frequently in Idaho, so PA is not alone in this. My great-grandmother always corrected anyone who said "These clothes need washed," with "No, dear, they need washing or to be washed," even into her 90s! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Garga, I agree with you! :) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Interesting. I had always been told that Scots-Irish (Dad was adamant that Scots was for people and Scotch was for the drink) were Protestants who had immigrated to Ireland from Scotland before then coming to the US. They are called Protestant Northern Irish or Ulster Scots here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clear Creek Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 <hands in her grammar nazi badge> I have spoken this way my entire life. I had no idea it was wrong! I have always said the floor needs mopped, the living room needs vacuumed, the kids need bathed, etc. I have even taught R&S English from 2nd almost through 7th grade (some books mutiple times) and I have never seen this addressed. My poor children have already picked up this phrasing from me, so they are doomed to a lifetime of sounding ignorant. My mom is from Ohio, so I guess I have her to blame. How did I ever graduate from college??? I am positive I used the phrase "this topic needs addressed" in at least one paper/research proposal! <hangs head in shame> 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 For sale signs and other advertisements should use SAE as it is our lingua franca. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldberry Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Not a grammar nazi here, but to me those both fall into the same category. Pants need to be washed or need washing. You want pants to be washed. Cars need to be washed or need washing. Sorry! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xixstar Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Well I am all kinds of wrong too. I didn't realize it was wrong to say my hair needs washed or the cat needs fed. Maybe I'll catch myself from now on and now that I think about the sentence, especially "the cat needs fed" it makes sense that it is not correct. I can't give the cat "fed". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornblower Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Hey, this is even on the Yale Grammar Diversity projecthttp://microsyntax.sites.yale.edu/needs-washed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaqui Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 My poor children have already picked up this phrasing from me, so they are doomed to a lifetime of sounding ignorant. People who sound ignorant do so because of what they say, not how they say it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clear Creek Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 I have been thinking about this some more, and I think I see where the miscommunication lies. If I tell my daughter, "The floor needs mopping", she will agree that the floor is dirty. If I tell my daughter, "The floor needs to be mopped", she will agree that mopping will rectify the floor's unclean condition. Both are statements about the floor's condition, but do not call for any action. But if I tell my daughter, "The floor needs mopped", that includes a directive. She understands that I am telling her to mop the floor - in other words, I am requesting a mopped floor. I phrased it in a less demanding way than "Go mop the floor" or "You will mop the floor," though. It is a passive, undemanding way of giving a command. If I tell my kids, "Go do this" or "You will do that," they know that the situation is serious and involves a lot more than just a request to do a chore - they have either lied to me or refused to do what was needed multiple times. But a simple "Your room needs cleaned" or "The dishes need washed" are understood to be kind, gentle requests to perform the action. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 My opinion: "needs washed" is wrong and "want washed" is correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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