Kiss and Cry (college disappointments)

[LNC]

I used to want my bright daughter to aim for top schools. Now she wants to major in special education and I don't have to worry about that!  On to safeties and scholarships!!

[Hoggirl]

Above, my sentiments exactly. What bothers me is to read about some kids over at College Board that got into all the top ranked schools, taking placement slots away from others, just so they can say they got in? Sadder too, are the posts from valedictorians or top of their class students that didn't get in any of the most selective colleges, who had almost perfect test scores, grades, and extra curriculars. No, the doors of education are not open to all, but if you can pay full tuition, those doors do open regardless of academic standing.

 

Next time around:

If my middle school child should write a book, cure cancer, or become a sports celebrity of some sort, I don't think I will encourage her to apply to any reach schools. It is a hollow promise aimed at middle class ambition. Those reach colleges of single digit acceptance rates will gladly take your money then reject your student. Those colleges are banking on your ambition. Example: 2014 Stanford fielded 44,239 applicants at $90.00 per application=$3,981,510.

 

Moving on. :)

My ds applied to 11 schools last year - 3 safeties, 2 matches, and 6 reaches. He had 9 acceptances, 1 waitlist (reach), and 1 rejection (reach). His four reach acceptances were all top 20 schools. One of those schools IS need-aware. The others state that they are not. He is NOT an athlete, has not written a book, and has not cured cancer. We are "Wonder Bread" white. He did have top test scores, was a National Merit Scholar, and he was Valedictorian of his class. He had strong extracurriculars (two of which demonstrated long-term commitments and were not affiliated with school) but nothing particularly unusual. He did submit a music supplement where allowed. We are full-pay.

 

There are something like 26,000 public high schools in this country. No idea how many private high schools there are. Each produces a Valedictorian. That alone does not warrant admission into a top school. High test scores alone don't warrant admission into a top school. Great extracurriculuars alone do not warrant admission into a top school. Any of those or a combination of those *may* get you in the read pile, but that's it. Top schools often say that they could fill their entering classes three or four times over and not be able to tell any difference between the first batch that was admitted and the last batch that was admitted. The common data set stats, while helpful, can NOT be relied upon for top schools. They can probably indicate whether or not one's application will get read. There are MANY qualified applicants.

 

Athletics are usually seen as economically beneficial to a school, even if they aren't money-makers at the school. Some people like athletics and athletic events. However, I think it's a false assumption that being a desired athlete was the *sole* reason for a student's admission. Being an athlete can be a hook, just as being a legacy, a URM, or a first-generation student can be a hook. All of those categories of people bring diversity to campuses.

 

I disagree with your statement "but if you can pay full tuition, those doors do open regardless of academic standing." If I am being honest, I find this a bit insulting as someone who is paying full-freight. Do you really believe that the ability to pay full tuition is the litmus test for admission to the most selective universities in the country?

 

From the standpoint of sanity, reasonableness, and economics, it sounds as though the UK system of limited applications is superior to what we have in the US. But that's not what we have. I don't know if our new poster is legit or not. I really don't care. The current system allows a student to apply to as many schools as s/he likes. Not the choice I would make, but if that's how you choose to spend your money/time, knock yourself out. IME, there are certainly worse vices. There are often cross-admits to top schools. Colleges offer more spots than they can fill because of their yield. How do you now if students are applying to all top schools for bragging rights? Depending on what his outcomes would have been, my ds would have attended any of the six top schools he applied to. Some kids want an Ivy - any Ivy. That wasn't my ds, and he didn't get into his sole Ivy anyway. Again, applying to all the Ivies was not the choice our ds made, but I don't think students who choose to do so should be villified. I personally think it's silly since they seem to all be so different to me, but, again, it's really none of my concern.

 

I don't think it's right or wrong to apply to only one school or to apply to 100 schools. It's none of my beeswax what others choose to do. Each family has to decide what is best for them based on MANY factors. Yes, finances are definitely one of those factors. I think (but this is only my opinion) finances should be the starting point.

 

People often refer to top schools as "lottery schools." The odds are extremely high that one will NOT get in. Many consider the whole admissions process to be a game. Perhaps it is. Folks can take their toys and go home and choose not to play. But just as the saying goes with regard to the lottery, "You can't win if you don't play."

[Jen in NY]

I know some schools advertised as Need Blind Admissions but...when DS and I toured one top 20 (No merit aid) school we were told by an admissions rep that without a doubt financial aid played a factor, especially in Early Action applications.  She told DS that if financial aid was a necessity for attendance he should not apply EA but should wait for RD.  As it turned out, DS was waitlisted at this school.  I wonder if it was because we needed a large FA package in order to make it a feasible option.

 

So sorry this happened to you. This is the polar opposite of our experience with dd#1. :(

[Ann.without.an.e]

I disagree with your statement "but if you can pay full tuition, those doors do open regardless of academic standing." If I am being honest, I find this a bit insulting as someone who is paying full-freight. Do you really believe that the ability to pay full tuition is the litmus test for admission to the most selective universities in the country?

 

 

To get into a top tier school, I would think that academic standing would be extremely important.  Period.  At the same time, when so many wonderful students apply with high stats, schools can only be so "need blind".  They need families who are able to pay retail price.  I imagine the best situation for a student is both - high academics AND the ability to pay full price (or close to it). 

[Jen in NY]

This link seems to distinguish between a few categories. It matches our experience thus far. How about yours?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Need-blind_admission

[Emmie]

Right now i'm feeling disappointed because DD worked really hard and got in to all the schools she applied to, including her first choice which was pretty selective and was her "reach." Then we heard back from Financial Aid - after grants her first choice still would have been more than 8x my EFC. :( 

 

She can't bring herself to reject it, but we really cannot afford 39,000 per year! 

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Right now i'm feeling disappointed because DD worked really hard and got in to all the schools she applied to, including her first choice which was pretty selective and was her "reach." Then we heard back from Financial Aid - after grants her first choice still would have been more than 8x my EFC. :(

 

She can't bring herself to reject it, but we really cannot afford 39,000 per year! 

 

I understand completely. We can't afford DS's top choices either and have been stretching our creativity to try to 'find' the money. Even if we can do that for one year, there is no way we can do it for four.  :(

[Emmie]

I understand completely. We can't afford DS's top choices either and have been stretching our creativity to try to 'find' the money. Even if we can do that for one year, there is no way we can do it for four.  :(

 The only good news is that dd did not plan to stay there all 4 years - the best schools for what she wants to study are schools that had extra requirements for hsers that she did not want to meet (SAT 2;s etc, also would have had to retake ACT to include writing)

 

Her first choice is a really good school to study science @ (she wants to major in bio), but it is more focused on human bio than animal, and she is animal/wildlife focused and specifically wants to go to a college that has lots of opportunities for ocean-related courses or research/volunteer opportunities... So because of that, starting out at this school was a great choice and then transferring to one that better fit long term goals (while avoiding extra homeschooling requirements) was the best option...

 

 

 

So very disappointed, but thankfully she isn't losing a 4-year dream, just a one year one..... :/

 

The only worry now is that the less selective school that gave her a full ride (seriously, how cruel is the world? full ride at safety, horrible aid at first choice!) will lower her chances of transferring as a sophomore to a more selective college... because it is much more lower ranked than her first choice. 

[Jen in NY]

Right now i'm feeling disappointed because DD worked really hard and got in to all the schools she applied to, including her first choice which was pretty selective and was her "reach." Then we heard back from Financial Aid - after grants her first choice still would have been more than 8x my EFC. :(

 

She can't bring herself to reject it, but we really cannot afford 39,000 per year! 

 

 

I understand completely. We can't afford DS's top choices either and have been stretching our creativity to try to 'find' the money. Even if we can do that for one year, there is no way we can do it for four.  :(

 

 

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: .

[Emmie]

The worst part is dd's comment of " I thought the hard part was getting in! I never thought i'd work hard, get in, and STILL not be able to go."

 

 

She's worked her butt off hsing these past 5 years - through health issues and everything.... And of course, once again it is finances that get in the way. Blah. 

[Granny_Weatherwax]

The worst part is dd's comment of " I thought the hard part was getting in! I never thought i'd work hard, get in, and STILL not be able to go."

 

 

She's worked her butt off hsing these past 5 years - through health issues and everything.... And of course, once again it is finances that get in the way. Blah. 

 

For me, the worst part is knowing that I told my son that the grades, the test scores, the ECs, and being the first generation male (on both sides) to attend college would matter and that the merit aid, scholarships, and financial aid would be there.

 

To the best of our knowledge about hooks, ECs, and whatnot - DS held up his end.  I feel like I let him down.

[creekland]

:grouphug: There are many times when I wish we had won one of those multi-million dollar lotteries or were otherwise unlimitedly wealthy.   :grouphug:

[elegantlion]

OK, thanks for listening. I just needed to say that to somebody, that I'm disappointed.  And I don't want to say it to her.  I don't want to tell my amazing daughter who has 3 scholarships in hand, that I am disappointed that she is not going to a big-name school. So I am telling you guys. :) There!  I said it!  I'm over it!  Now, I can just forget about all of this crazy college stuff, and get on with life!!!!

 

All the best!! 

 

I have a certain level of disappointment too. Our lives have been so chaotic and interrupted that it changed our plans for high school and post high school. He is NOT disappointed and I do think his choice school (only one he applied to for the chaotic reasons) will be a good option to start. I would be surprised if he finished a degree there because they don't have his top choice major - they have a pre-program that will get him headed in the right direction though. The also have viable options if he changes his mind. 

[Emmie]

For me, the worst part is knowing that I told my son that the grades, the test scores, the ECs, and being the first generation male (on both sides) to attend college would matter and that the merit aid, scholarships, and financial aid would be there.

 

To the best of our knowledge about hooks, ECs, and whatnot - DS held up his end.  I feel like I let him down.

Yep - we're in the same situation! DD's got the ec's, I'm a single parent, dd is first generation college student, etc etc etc.... So frustrating. 

 

 

Sorry to hear your going through the same stuff, though... Does you son have good backups or is he in a situation like my dd is?

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Yep - we're in the same situation! DD's got the ec's, I'm a single parent, dd is first generation college student, etc etc etc.... So frustrating. 

 

 

Sorry to hear your going through the same stuff, though... Does you son have good backups or is he in a situation like my dd is?

 

I think their situations are similar. 

[creekland]

I think what bothers my son is that having the grades, the class rank, the test scores, the Ecs, etc rarely gets anyone as much in merit as a person who is just at the 25% ile in class rank, B average, no Ecs, no academic challenge, no job, will get in need based aid.

 

The kids who are in the 25% rank at our school don't go to college.  If any did, the best they would get is a Pell grant if they qualified and it would be used at cc as they wouldn't get in anywhere else they could afford to attend.

 

Many schools that accept not-so-qualified kids do not give much in financial aid.

 

I haven't seen a less than stellar student yet who has gotten oodles of need-based aid.

[8filltheheart]

I think what bothers my son is that having the grades, the class rank, the test scores, the Ecs, etc rarely gets anyone as much in merit as a person who is just at the 25% ile in class rank, B average, no Ecs, no academic challenge, no job, will get in need based aid.

 

While that was our experience with higher ranked schools, it wasn't the case with lower ranked schools.  Our ds was offered 2 full rides and 1 full-tuition simply based on his academic background.  (I can't say just stats b/c the full-rides were not admission scholarships, but either partially dept or fully dept scholarships.  Those were dependent on academic achievements, not test scores/grades.)

[Grantmom]

Ugh, my post keeps getting deleted before I post it, so I hope this isn't a repeat.  

 

But 42 schools??  Is that crazy or is that the norm for some these days?  That sounds crazy to me.

 

As for kids with the top stats applying to all the top schools and taking spots away from others, I don't see how they could do it any other way.  If they want to attend a school like that, how can they know realistically where they will be accepted?  It seems like the tippy top schools are reach schools for everyone.  Kids with perfect scores and everything else you think they would need for admission get rejected, so how could one know?

 

This also makes me feel a little overwhelmed about helping my kids ascertain which schools should be their reach/match/safety schools.  How do you find the balance?  If your kids want to go to the tippy top schools, on one hand, I feel like I should encourage them to shoot for the stars, because you never know.  Who am I to say this or that school is too far of a reach for you?  At the same time, I want to help them be realistic.  So, if kids are getting rejected even from safety schools, as is mentioned upthread, simply because their stats are "too" good, gosh, it makes you feel like you can't win for losing.

 

 

[JanetC]

While that was our experience with higher ranked schools, it wasn't the case with lower ranked schools.

Yes. Merit aid is a seat-filling tool, not a reward for hard work. To get it, you have to apply to a school that wants to fill more seats with the kind of student you are.

 

Higher ranked schools have lots of students trying to get their seats and offer little or no merit aid.

 

Lower ranked schools will offer merit aid to make their school more attractive than the competition. It may be a way to tweak the usnews rankings, male-female ratios, demand for a department's clases, etc, or it may be used to attract a wealthy student by making the school cost a little less than EFC rather than a little more.

[8filltheheart]

Yes. Merit aid is a seat-filling tool, not a reward for hard work. To get it, you have to apply to a school that wants to fill more seats with the kind of student you are.

 

Higher ranked schools have lots of students trying to get their seats and offer little or no merit aid.

 

Lower ranked schools will offer merit aid to make their school more attractive than the competition. It may be a way to tweak the usnews rankings, male-female ratios, demand for a department's clases, etc, or it may be used to attract a wealthy student by making the school cost a little less than EFC rather than a little more.

 

I agree that merit aid is a seat filling tool, but I completely disagree that it isn't a reward for hard work.  It is precisely bc our ds worked so hard in school that he received the scholarships that he did.  The "reward" was not for leadership, community, or service type work.  It was a reward of high levels of academic achievement and pursuing independent studies.

[JanetC]

I agree that merit aid is a seat filling tool, but I completely disagree that it isn't a reward for hard work.  It is precisely bc our ds worked so hard in school that he received the scholarships that he did.

 

What I was trying to say is, "working hard" is necessary, but not sufficient, to get merit aid. If you work hard, but the schools you apply to don't give merit aid (or don't need to give merit aid to attract students with your particular profile), you won't get a scholarship.

 

Working hard is important, but being strategic about applying is at least as important.

[8filltheheart]

What I was trying to say is, "working hard" is necessary, but not sufficient, to get merit aid. If you work hard, but the schools you apply to don't give merit aid (or don't need to give merit aid to attract students with your particular profile), you won't get a scholarship.

 

Working hard is important, but being strategic about applying is at least as important.

 

:confused1:  Obviously if you apply to schools that only offer need based aid you can't receive scholarships since they don't exist.

[EmilyK]

What I was trying to say is, "working hard" is necessary, but not sufficient, to get merit aid. If you work hard, but the schools you apply to don't give merit aid (or don't need to give merit aid to attract students with your particular profile), you won't get a scholarship.

 

Working hard is important, but being strategic about applying is at least as important.

 

Just to agree with this, I know from my own experience that from the schools' perspective, they are using merit aid to attract some kinds of kids that they think they otherwise wouldn't get. Back in the dark ages, I got a lot of merit aid to go to a certain law school that was on its way up in the rankings. As it turned out, the woman I ended up rooming with did too. As best we could figure out, they were trying to improve their rankings by attracting students who might not otherwise come there (and it was a good school, but I think they had amibitions to move from say #14 or 12 to being top 10). Even more so, we were both applying to a newish joint degree program and I think they really wanted to attract students to it (my part of it was the very first year). People who were very/just as qualified but hadn't applied to this program didn't get the money.

 

So yes, we'd both worked hard in college and done well, but sort of lucked on some serious money that we got because of the school's objectives. If you knew which schools had objectives that match what your student has to offer, that would be very helpful. 

[8filltheheart]

Just to agree with this, I know from my own experience that from the schools' perspective, they are using merit aid to attract some kinds of kids that they think they otherwise wouldn't get. Back in the dark ages, I got a lot of merit aid to go to a certain law school that was on its way up in the rankings. As it turned out, the woman I ended up rooming with did too. As best we could figure out, they were trying to improve their rankings by attracting students who might not otherwise come there (and it was a good school, but I think they had amibitions to move from say #14 or 12 to being top 10). Even more so, we were both applying to a newish joint degree program and I think they really wanted to attract students to it (my part of it was the very first year). People who were very/just as qualified but hadn't applied to this program didn't get the money.

 

So yes, we'd both worked hard in college and done well, but sort of lucked on some serious money that we got because of the school's objectives. If you knew which schools had objectives that match what your student has to offer, that would be very helpful. 

 

The bolded is the key issue.  The lower ranked schools want to fill their seats with top students who wouldn't normally choose to attend.  But......what makes those students desirable?  It is precisely b/c they did work hard and are top students.   They are students who are qualified to attend highly competitive schools and who are being lured by $$.  Schools that are competitive or only offer need-based aid are not going to work as target schools.  It is rather disingenuous to state that the merit $$ is not a reward for working hard b/c that is precisely what they are doing---rewarding in a financial way in hopes that the reward will attract the student.   For strong students without financial options, it is a rewarding strategy. ;)

[MamaAkins]

Our disappointments came not on the academic end, but on the financial side.  Our daughter was accepted to four out of the six schools she applied to and waitlisted at one of the others.  She received the highest merit based scholarship at one of the schools (High Point University) and a merit scholarship and fellows scholarship at Elon.  However, even with need-based financial aid at both schools, we would have been left with other $26K in loans.  Considering our EFC is $1536, there was simply no way to make that happen.  Our daughter made a wise (albeit difficult) decision to go to a school that offered her the largest merit scholarship.  She'll be able to graduate with very minimal debt (likely way under $18K for all 4 years). Since she is planning on getting her masters and possibly her doctorate, she does not want to accumulate a ridiculous amount of debt in undergrad.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

It's not necessarily a disappointment per se but I am surprised at how emotional I am as DS whittles his list and works on making a final decision.  His first denial letter is in the envelope and ready to be mailed tomorrow.  This school gave the least amount of financial aid and we couldn't afford the ticket price so I thought it would be easier to process.

 

I keep telling myself that one of the remaining schools will be THE one and he will be happy.

[Gwen in VA]

 

I think what bothers my son is that having the grades, the class rank, the test scores, the Ecs, etc rarely gets anyone as much in merit as a person who is just at the 25% ile in class rank, B average, no Ecs, no academic challenge, no job, will get in need based aid.

 

That hasn't been our experience at all. Some colleges are VERY generous with merit aid, using it as a tool to attract top students.

 

BTW, some top schools do give generous merit aid -- our older two both attended a top-15 LAC on generous scholarships, one on a full-tuition and one on a full-ride. But this particular school was recently given $100M and it's choosing to use a fair chunk of that to attract top students by being generous in merit aid.

[Tsuga]

My experience and my partner's experience was that being in the top 5% of one's class, taking ever AP offered, and being in the top 5 - 1% of SAT scorers, did not get us generous merit aid at all. True, I might have done well applying to MIT, but I doubt it. I won't encourage my kids to give up a summer job in hope of a scholarship. Those who get aid think, "See? I worked hard, had a 3.9 GPA with APs, got in the top 10% of SAT scorers, and I got scholarships. It was worth it."

 

But then you have other people who apply to at least 20 scholarships, several state schools and a reach, who get no more in aid than they could save going to community college, and who had even better scores. (Such as myself.) And the thought that happens then is, "What a bunch of liars. I worked so hard for nothing. I could have gotten into community college and paid cash if I'd have just worked through high school, and now I STILL have to work because I have no savings. Wow."

 

If you get a scholarship, you surely have worked hard. What you don't see is all the others who also worked hard who don't get merit aid, some with even better stats.

 

That's why it doesn't seem like it's rewarding hard work. It's like getting paid in lottery tickets.

[Frances]

That hasn't been our experience at all. Some colleges are VERY generous with merit aid, using it as a tool to attract top students.

 

BTW, some top schools do give generous merit aid -- our older two both attended a top-15 LAC on generous scholarships, one on a full-tuition and one on a full-ride. But this particular school was recently given $100M and it's choosing to use a fair chunk of that to attract top students by being generous in merit aid.

This was also our experience. We don't qualify for financial aid, but our son was awarded very generous merit scholarships to two top 20 LACs. However, as others have already mentioned, it's important to be strategic about where you apply. These two schools were not in our geographic area which I believe made him a more attractive candidate. While he received good merit aid at lower ranked local schools, the best merit aid came from the two colleges furthest away. On the other hand, we took two top tier out of state public universities off the table before he even applied when we found out they gave most of their scholarships to in-state students.

[8filltheheart]

My experience and my partner's experience was that being in the top 5% of one's class, taking ever AP offered, and being in the top 5 - 1% of SAT scorers, did not get us generous merit aid at all. True, I might have done well applying to MIT, but I doubt it. I won't encourage my kids to give up a summer job in hope of a scholarship. Those who get aid think, "See? I worked hard, had a 3.9 GPA with APs, got in the top 10% of SAT scorers, and I got scholarships. It was worth it."

 

But then you have other people who apply to at least 20 scholarships, several state schools and a reach, who get no more in aid than they could save going to community college, and who had even better scores. (Such as myself.) And the thought that happens then is, "What a bunch of liars. I worked so hard for nothing. I could have gotten into community college and paid cash if I'd have just worked through high school, and now I STILL have to work because I have no savings. Wow."

 

If you get a scholarship, you surely have worked hard. What you don't see is all the others who also worked hard who don't get merit aid, some with even better stats.

 

That's why it doesn't seem like it's rewarding hard work. It's like getting paid in lottery tickets.

I disagree. This is where understanding application strategy can pay off (pun intended :) ). Knowing that tippy top schools do not typically give any merit scholarships and only need-based aid means that knowing your EFC based on the school's NPC is probably going to be the MINIMUM that school is going to cost. MIT, HYP, etc are going to cost you according to income/asset assessments based on the particular school's formula. There are no scholarships. Families with an EFC they cannot afford based on the NPC, unless unusual circumstances exist, are mostly dwelling in wishful thinking if they think the numbers are going to change.

 

But, there are several automatic scholarship schools. That means published on their website is a list of criteria for $X. Every student applying with that criteria receives that scholarship. There is no "selective" competition for the $$. You have the stats, you get it. For example, a 32 or 1400 test score combined with a 3.5+ GPA grants a full-tuition scholarship (for OOS, lower test scores for in-state) at UA. That scholarship is renewable for 4 yrs as long as a 3.0 GPA is maintained. In addition to that scholarship, there are additional scholarships that are highly competitive and are definitely not guaranteed. That is where you can't easily identify why someone is selected for the scholarship over someone else.

 

Researching universities which grant automatic merit $$ or merit $$ which is pretty consistent yr to yr even if not published on their websites gives top students financial safeties, even if the schools are not top schools that they have ever dreamed about. At the end of the application season, having schools that you know you can attend bc you can afford them can mean the difference between attending universityand having no real options.

 

Kids with high test scores and high grades do have some financial safety options they can apply to with guaranteed $$ if they are willing to apply to much lower ranked schools.

[eternalsummer]

My experience and my partner's experience was that being in the top 5% of one's class, taking ever AP offered, and being in the top 5 - 1% of SAT scorers, did not get us generous merit aid at all. True, I might have done well applying to MIT, but I doubt it. I won't encourage my kids to give up a summer job in hope of a scholarship. Those who get aid think, "See? I worked hard, had a 3.9 GPA with APs, got in the top 10% of SAT scorers, and I got scholarships. It was worth it."

 

But then you have other people who apply to at least 20 scholarships, several state schools and a reach, who get no more in aid than they could save going to community college, and who had even better scores. (Such as myself.) And the thought that happens then is, "What a bunch of liars. I worked so hard for nothing. I could have gotten into community college and paid cash if I'd have just worked through high school, and now I STILL have to work because I have no savings. Wow."

 

If you get a scholarship, you surely have worked hard. What you don't see is all the others who also worked hard who don't get merit aid, some with even better stats.

 

That's why it doesn't seem like it's rewarding hard work. It's like getting paid in lottery tickets.

 

 

I got a scholarship (full ride, tuition +room/board allowance at middling flagship (University of Kansas)) and did not work that hard.  I think a better way to say it than "merit aid is rewarded on the basis of hard work" or "merit aid is sometimes awarded on the basis of hard work but sometimes you can work hard and not get aid" is "merit aid is awarded on the basis of specific high achievements that the school wants to add to their profile."

 

In my case, they wanted National Merit Scholars.

 

I did not even apply to better schools because a full ride not far from home was what I needed.  

 

 

I agree that much of the advice given to high school students is crazy and wrong and wishful thinking.  Hard work is not rewarded specifically; achievement is not even rewarded unless it is competitive.  Plus, everyone told me a few things that were distinctly untrue:

 

1. An English major is as good as anything else and sure you can get a job. (hah)

2.  If you are smart and middle-class, the only thing that makes sense for your life is going to college after high school.  You must at all costs go to college.  Your self-identity is determined by going to college.  (hah)

3.  the IB Diploma will help you get into a better colllege, which is the goal, and you won't have to pay for the IB tests this way (I saved $700 for something like 300+ extra hours of work, definitely not a good hourly wage)

[eternalsummer]

I think of it like this:  I played flute in high school.  I was decent.  I worked really quite hard at it, more than I did at any academic pursuit.  I was the second best flutist at my (largish) high school.  It was only in my last year that I made the all-state band, and even that was quite marginal.  I was maybe the 20th best flutist in the state at that point.  

 

One day I said to my friend who was the best flutist at our school, and the best in the state on a good day, and who my teacher (the principal flutist of the KC Symphony) once said could probably play professionally someday, "Hey, you're one of the top 50 flutists in the US!  You must be getting a scholarship for college, right?"

 

But because the state (Missouri) was a relatively crap state for flute talent, and because flute skill is not exactly a money-making or reputation-enhancing proposition for most universities, not only was there absolutely no money for me in it, anywhere - there wasn't even any money for her.  She laughed at me when I suggested it.

 

I guess that is a weird story to tell, but what I'm trying to say is that I would also have been mad if I had been told that my hard work at the flute and placement in the top 2% of flutists in MO would get me any sort of monetary reward, ever.  I was probably not even good enough to play flute at KU, much less for them to pay me.

 

 

 

[creekland]

My experience and my partner's experience was that being in the top 5% of one's class, taking ever AP offered, and being in the top 5 - 1% of SAT scorers, did not get us generous merit aid at all. 

 

This will all depend upon where one applies.  There are quite a few schools that offer guaranteed merit aid for certain scores/GPA.  Many top students use them as financial safeties.

 

U Alabama is one we chose to use as a safety and middle son felt he could have been happy there had he gone there.  He ended up with a better offer at a school he liked better, but if he hadn't, he'd have been fine.  He only had two official APs (with test scores).  That's not very many in AP world.

 

His stats were also high enough that Pitt ended up being a good safety for him, since Pitt has rolling admissions and lets students know about merit aid early too.  Again, where he went he liked better and had an even better offer, but if he hadn't, he'd have been fine.

 

Both U Alabama and Pitt are in the Top 100 schools.  When there are close to 3000 schools, that's not too shabby in my mind.

 

Paying for school is far tougher for average stat students.  High stat students have choices as long as they are careful where they apply.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

 And local students are getting much more in sports scholarships than brainiacs are in merit scholarships.

 

Oh my goodness, YES!!  This is exactly what we are seeing in our area.  It is quite disheartening to the top kids when average or below average students are getting top scholarships simply because they are above average in a particular sport.  What makes this even worse (and I know I have said it before) is the hoopla the high school goes through for the signing ceremonies for these kids. Last month was crazy.  Every week there were announcements about so-and-so's signing ceremony in the front hall and for everyone to wear their spirit wear that day to show support.  Students were called out of class to stand in the foyer to present a spirit wear background for the signing ceremony.  Yes, the local press was there and each ceremony was posted on the school's website as well as the local media sites.

 

So not only are the students aware that these less than stellar athletes (one had an ACT of 14) are receiving scholarship money but they are being nurtured to believe that athletes deserve special treatment.

 

:glare: 

[bettyandbob]

 

 

I agree that much of the advice given to high school students is crazy and wrong and wishful thinking.  Hard work is not rewarded specifically; achievement is not even rewarded unless it is competitive.  Plus, everyone told me a few things that were distinctly untrue:

 

1. An English major is as good as anything else and sure you can get a job. (hah)

2.  If you are smart and middle-class, the only thing that makes sense for your life is going to college after high school.  You must at all costs go to college.  Your self-identity is determined by going to college.  (hah)

3.  the IB Diploma will help you get into a better colllege, which is the goal, and you won't have to pay for the IB tests this way (I saved $700 for something like 300+ extra hours of work, definitely not a good hourly wage)

 

An English (or history or sociology ) major can get you a job, but you have use your time outside of class wisely, seek research opportunities, make connections and find or create internships that build a good resume. If you simply finish degree requirements, without building strong written and oral communication skills and simply work at the movie theater for four years, you won't just get a job because you have a degree in English. English can be a good major for some people, but it's the extras that the person puts into it that make a difference. 

 

A degree in anything can make a difference today, in that some employers use the presence of a degree as a weed out in hiring and are now filling jobs which require little to no skill with people who have degrees. If that's not the type of job you want to get when you graduate, you have to do more with your undergraduate time than finish required classes. 

 

IB classes are very rigorous. The students who take the IB track at my neighborhood high school are better prepared for college level work than the students from the AP high school 5 miles away. I've been watching things between these high schools since IB was adopted locally 20 years ago. The state universities also know what's going on. It's starting to show in acceptance rates. Yes, you will do a lot more work in an IB class. Isn't that the point? To show what you are capable of, so admissions officers know how you will perform in the university environment. I don't think you can compare the academic work you did toward getting into college to a paid job. In my area IB classes do get you into a better college if you perform well in them. The result from there is up to you. Like I said above--once you get into college how did you use your time. If you simply check boxes until you get a degree, no job will magically appear. You still have to put in the effort. 

 

I do agree that not every smart middle class kid needs college. In my house, we emphasize that no undergrad degree is worth student loans. 

[8filltheheart]

guaranteed scholarships based on act/sat and gpa...but that isnt widespread. Pricing is more on family income than on scholarship.

If students are willing to look outside their geographic area and at schools recruiting them, there are options. Great ones? Well, it is all in the perspective..if the options are no school, extreme debt, or lower ranked school, lower ranked might not be so shabby. ;)

 

This link has a lot of low cost options for top students. http://automaticfulltuition.yolasite.com

 

Just to highlight a few:

 

University of Alabama-Huntsville

Application Deadline: June 1st

Award: Full Tuition + Housing

Residual COA: $5,592/year

Requirements: 4.0 GPA, 34 ACT or 1490 SAT (CR+M)

Award: Full Tuition

Residual COA: $9,592/year

Requirements: 3.5 GPA, 30 ACT or 1330 SAT (CR+M)

 

Troy University

Application Deadline: March 1st

Award: Full Ride (Tuition+Room+Board)

Residual COA: $4,470/year

Requirements: 3.7 GPA, 31 ACT or 1380 SAT (CR+M)

Award: Full Tuition

Residual COA: $10,821/year

Requirements: 3.5 GPA, 27 ACT or 1220 SAT (CR+M)

 

Louisiana Tech University

Application Deadline: Jan 5th

Award: Full Ride (tuition, fees, and on-campus regular dorm and meals for four years)

Residual COA: $5,229/year

Requirements: 3.0 GPA, 32 ACT or 1400 SAT (CR+M)

 

Howard University

Application Deadline: Not published

Award: Full Ride

Residual COA: $3,462/year

Requirements: 3.5 GPA, 32 ACT or 1400 SAT (CR+M)

Award: Full Tuition

Residual COA: $15,754/year

Requirements: 3.0 GPA, 26 ACT or 1170 SAT (CR+M)

 

Those are all automatic awards which are not competitive but given based just on test scores and GPA.

 

This link contains other links to explore for other ideas:

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/1678964-links-to-popular-threads-on-scholarships-and-lower-cost-colleges.html#latest

[Nan in Mass]

Hard work in high school pays off another way, as well - the extra academic work will make you more likely to be able to STAY in college once you get there, more likely to survive your college classes, more likely to be able to keep a scholarship at a less well-known school or get further financing, and the EC's and jobs will make you more likely to choose a field you like, make you more employable after you complete your degree, and help you to pay for college (if you can manage to save any of the money).  Not that I don't think there is some merit in that "paid in lottery tickets" analogy.  I am sure the top students at our top public high school who are aiming for ivies or full scholarships feel exactly like this, despite our fairly good college guidance counselors.

 

Nan

[Caroline]

To add to what 8 said, my son got letters from colleges he never applied to giving him scholarships for his ACT score. Kentucky comes to mind and Bama was another one. My niece has one for Michigan State that was based on GPA and ACT scores. I don't know the details of that one.

 

I am not going to deny that having money makes it all easier. It certainly does.

 

If students are willing to look outside their geographic area and at schools recruiting them, there are options. Great ones? Well, it is all in the perspective..if the options are no school, extreme debt, or lower ranked school, lower ranked might not be so shabby. ;)

 

This link has a lot of low cost options for top students. http://automaticfulltuition.yolasite.com

 

Just to highlight a few:

 

University of Alabama-Huntsville

Application Deadline: June 1st

Award: Full Tuition + Housing

Residual COA: $5,592/year

Requirements: 4.0 GPA, 34 ACT or 1490 SAT (CR+M)

Award: Full Tuition

Residual COA: $9,592/year

Requirements: 3.5 GPA, 30 ACT or 1330 SAT (CR+M)

 

Troy University

Application Deadline: March 1st

Award: Full Ride (Tuition+Room+Board)

Residual COA: $4,470/year

Requirements: 3.7 GPA, 31 ACT or 1380 SAT (CR+M)

Award: Full Tuition

Residual COA: $10,821/year

Requirements: 3.5 GPA, 27 ACT or 1220 SAT (CR+M)

 

Louisiana Tech University

Application Deadline: Jan 5th

Award: Full Ride (tuition, fees, and on-campus regular dorm and meals for four years)

Residual COA: $5,229/year

Requirements: 3.0 GPA, 32 ACT or 1400 SAT (CR+M)

 

Howard University

Application Deadline: Not published

Award: Full Ride

Residual COA: $3,462/year

Requirements: 3.5 GPA, 32 ACT or 1400 SAT (CR+M)

Award: Full Tuition

Residual COA: $15,754/year

Requirements: 3.0 GPA, 26 ACT or 1170 SAT (CR+M)

 

Those are all automatic awards which are not competitive but given based just on test scores and GPA.

 

This link contains other links to explore for other ideas:

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/1678964-links-to-popular-threads-on-scholarships-and-lower-cost-colleges.html#latest

[Hoggirl]

I am not saying these options dont exist, but there arent enough dollars in this pool compared to the other pools. Locally, what we are seeing is that, for middle class kids, sports pays over scholarship. For the poor, being in the admit range, any admitable level of scholarship results in more aid than middle class and high scholarship.

 

I am a bit confused about what you are saying here - can you help me understand? I'm not sure what you mean by "aren't enough dollars in this pool compared to other pools." Not enough dollars for what? The scholarships listed by 8 are irrespective of what anyone else would receive - just cut and dry based on stats. Are you just opining that you think it is unfair that poorer people with lower stats receive more money (via aid) than middle-class students with higher stats receive (via merit)?

Sorry I am dense...

[Jenny in Florida]

I am opining that scholarship, in the eyes of students, does not pay, and the dollar distribution backs that opinion up.

 

It probably depends on the student and his or her specific situation.

 

My son is quite clear on the fact that the bulk of his scholarship and grant money came to him based on his grades and test scores. He did get some smaller scholarships for performance (although, given that he has been dancing since he was six, I would argue that those scholarships were the result of hard work, too), but it was definitely the academics that made it possible for him to attend the private university he chose, rather than the 2+2 community college and state university path that was the back-up plan.

 

In his case, the cost of full-time tuition at his school for this year is $24,525. Housing and meal plan add another $9,080. Of that $33,605, just about half is being covered by academic scholarships. That money came to him automatically because his grades and test scores (and, in the case of the state-sponsored funds, his hours of community service) qualified him for it.

 

He earned another couple of thousand dollars in performance scholarships based on his auditions. He got a grant available to all in-state students who attend private colleges and universities. He took a minimal amount of student loans, and we are covering the balance out of pocket.

 

He knows perfectly well that, without his academic record, he wouldn't be at that school.

 

One of his closest friends just received an offer of a nearly full ride to Boston University, again based on a combination of academic and performance scholarships. His family also qualifies for some need-based aid, but it's the additional scholarship moneys that make it possible for him to attend that school.

[Jenny in Florida]

For the poor, being in the admit range, any admitable level of scholarship results in more aid than middle class and high scholarship.

 

I think it's important to note, just so folks who might be just starting down this path don't get confused, that there seems to be a blurring of lines here between merit aid and need-based aid. It's really not fair to compare the two. Those "poor" kids with less impressive academic records may well be earning fewer -- or no -- dollars in merit aid, but are being given need-based aid because of their families' financial situations. It's not as though they are taking away funds that would otherwise be earmarked for middle class kids with higher grades. They money comes from different sources.

[Jen in NY]

I am not saying these options dont exist, but there arent enough dollars in this pool compared to the other pools. Locally, what we are seeing is that, for middle class kids, sports pays over scholarship. For the poor, being in the admit range, any admitable level of scholarship results in more aid than middle class and high scholarship.

 

Of course, I agree that being well prepared makes the future easier, but in the eyes of many it is not necessary. No need to challenge yourself in high school if your aid isnt merit, is the thinking. PreCalc can wait.

 

To add to your list, NY is offering free tuition to STEM students who agree to work in NY for 5 years after graduation. Be aware that fees are high. Does that sound like scholarship is paying off? Its very close to Pell Grant plus Work Study, but includes a 5 year commitment.

 

I guess I am confused, too. If a person isn't interested in learning, aren't they barking up the wrong tree thinking about going to college anyway?

[FaithManor]

I guess I am confused, too. If a person isn't interested in learning, aren't they barking up the wrong tree thinking about going to college anyway?

In my area, employers have such low opinions of the local PS's that they will not hire anyone without an AA, and really like to see the BA/BS for anything that pays over minimum wage. So, students are funneled by both parents and school guidance counselors into college regardless of whether or not that is a good fit for the student. We are seeing a record number of kids who didn't give two hoots about education trying to get into college now and then taking out crazy amounts of loans just to attend the lower priced, lower standards regional universities.

 

It's nuts! But, the employment options are so limited, that these kids can't get out into the real world and get some experience under their belts, explore their options, and figure out what it is that they want to do when they grow up because mom and dad and the guidance counselors and the teachers and the employers and________ are telling them "You have to go to college, you don't have a choice." I don't know what to say, my dad has an HVAC business and requirea both HVAC licensing and an AA because he's had so many bum, loafing employees that want a paycheck for doing nothing or understand so little about business that they are a liability to him in terms of customer service and what not. The HVAC licensing program that he prefers to get his employees from costs $13,500.00, and then the AA is $8500.00 plus commuting costs to the decent CC which actually usually takes four years because they have waiting lists for so many of their sophomore level courses. That's not cheap for someone hoping to avoid the costs of a BS. Crappy U for commuters is a total of only a few thousand more for a bachelor's.

 

These things are very regional so no hard and fast generalizations can be made. But, I know there are more areas in the Midwest/Great Lakes Region that have similar problems.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I guess I am confused, too. If a person isn't interested in learning, aren't they barking up the wrong tree thinking about going to college anyway?

 

My son has taken two semesters of pre-calculus at local community colleges.  His experience has been that around half the registered students dropped by the midpoint of the course or don't show up for major exams.  (Oddly, there were 7 students on hand for the last quiz, then only 4 showed up for the major exam the following week.  This was well past the date when students could withdraw without a grade.)

 

In California, the schools are quite impacted (meaning there are more students trying to get courses than there are spaces in the courses needed).  This was enough of a problem within the community college systems that the state passed a rule limiting the number of times a student can retake a single course.  http://www.gcccd.edu/web-advisor/upcoming-changes/title-5-course-repetition-and-withdrawal.html (Keep in mind that the state pays a significant chunk of the tuition for in state residents - on figure I saw said the state covers 90%.  DS's course was around $45 per credit in CA and is about $125 per credit in HI, both at in state rates.)  Before the change, students were allowed to take a course up to 7 times.  [One wrinkle is that if a student takes a course a 4th time, the school must pay the difference out of their reserves.  State law (as of 2011) didn't allow them to charge the student full cost of the course.)

 

So it would seem that there are a number of students who are unprepared or uninterested in the work required for even CC courses.  

[snowbeltmom]

I think it's important to note, just so folks who might be just starting down this path don't get confused, that there seems to be a blurring of lines here between merit aid and need-based aid. It's really not fair to compare the two. Those "poor" kids with less impressive academic records may well be earning fewer -- or no -- dollars in merit aid, but are being given need-based aid because of their families' financial situations. It's not as though they are taking away funds that would otherwise be earmarked for middle class kids with higher grades. They money comes from different sources.

 

:iagree:

 

There also seems to be a blurring of lines here between athletic scholarships and need-based aid. There is not as much money for athletes as some seem to think.  The odds of getting merit money for high grades and test scores are exponentially higher than the odds of getting money as a recruited athlete.

 

[Hoggirl]

I am opining that scholarship, in the eyes of students, does not pay, and the dollar distribution backs that opinion up.

Sigh. Maybe *some* day, I will learn how to multi-quote! I'm just too dumb to do it! Argh!

 

I wanted to quote both Jenny in Florida and Snowbeltmom as well as I agree with them about the blurring of lines between need-based, merit-based, and athletic-based scholarships.

 

So, you are saying that you think the "pile" of money for those who need aid is larger than the "pile" of money for those who are deserving of academic merit aid? And, yes, I am aware that one can qualify for both. :) I would have no idea as to how to compare the size of available piles, though it must be driven by endowment to some extent??

[creekland]

:iagree:

 

There also seems to be a blurring of lines here between athletic scholarships and need-based aid. There is not as much money for athletes as some seem to think.  The odds of getting merit money for high grades and test scores are exponentially higher than the odds of getting money as a recruited athlete.

 

 

At our average high school, there is far more received for merit aid than athletic scholarships.  They aren't even on the same scale to be honest.

 

It will depend upon the school as some schools do not give merit aid.  It's kinda important that kids who need/want merit aid not apply to those schools.

 

HOWEVER, there are also schools that do not give athletic scholarships.  Ditto the advice about applying if interested (though coaches recruit for athletic scholarships - just plain applying isn't quite the answer).

 

I'm glad there's need based aid for many kids.  I will never wish there were less of that.

 

My kids wouldn't be at their schools without a combo of merit and need-based aid.

[Teachin'Mine]

To find out how a college allocates merit scholarships, athletic scholarships, and financial aid, all you need to do is look at the common data set.  I looked up U of Alabama as that one is known for having great merit based aid.  On page 20 of this link you can see how much is provided for academic vs athletic scholarships.  I tried to copy the chart here, but can only copy the link.

 

http://oira.ua.edu/d/content/reports/2014-2015-common-data-set

 

For non-need based merit scholarship the amount was roughly 79.8 million and for non-need based athletic scholarship it was roughly 10.4 million.  

 

Merit scholarships shouldn't be the only reason a student works hard in high school, but are a valid goal when applications are sent to the schools which award good merit aid.  Since the top schools award the best financial aid, hard work can also pay off for those needing a lot of financial aid.  It's not at all guaranteed that the student will gain admission to one of those schools, but it's worth trying for.  Some merit aid is easier to count on as it's entirely GPA and test dependent.  The low income student can apply for those as well, but they may have a harder time filling the gap as they likely don't have the same resources a s a middle income student who can get by with just the merit aid.  Yes, sometimes additional scholarships can be stacked, but this is more competitive and not a sure thing either.

[FaithManor]

Teaching Mine, because some schools do not allow stacking, one thing we do on 4-H Council is disperse the $2500.00 scholarship after the first semester and directly to the student. They put in a semester, keep a 2.75 GPA, turn in a bill for something close to $2500.00 for expenses which can be tuition/fees/room/board/books/commuting costs, whatever that is college related, and we write them a check. It never goes to the college. This way they do not have to worry about losing merit aid or need based aid. We don't decide on the winners of the scholarship until July - they apply in June and the winners are announced at the 4-H Fair the third week of July - so they've already accepted their financial aid offers anyway. We do not consider this unethical and especially since it is not dispersed until second semester.

 

Some of them use it to pay off a first semester loan or put it in the bank and pay the monthly interest on unsubsidized loans so their balance doesn't grow. That last one, to me, is a smart plan.

[Teachin'Mine]

Also of interest on the common data set of UA, from the same section referenced above, is that of all the academic scholarships whether from UA or outside sources, 67.9 million was need based and 93.5 million was non-need based.