Computer science major concerns....

[Elisabet1]

My 20 yr old with high functioning autism/brain trauma, is majoring in computer science and has been getting low grades in the computer science courses. He came in with AP credit in computer science, so he skipped the first class, which was probably a bad move. Then, the school is very small, so he has had one prof for the second class and earned a C. Then he had a different prof for the other 3 classes and earned an F and then D and D+.  He is doing fine in the rest of the classes.

 

Solutions we suggested were...

 

change his major. He actually earns A's and B's in his other classes and is a writing minor so he could switch to a writing major.

 

change schools....he could go part-time then and still major in computer science. His current financial aid situation requires full-time enrollment at the school he is at. 

 

First he was going to just change his major. He does not seem too interested in leaving his school. Then he realized his sister does not live here anymore and decided it would not be painful to move home and now he is saying he should perhaps move home and go to the local community college and recover his grades. He already took classes there last summer and earned A's.

 

My worry is  1)his sister will come back and our home will be right back in to chaos state   2) a baby will be born in March and things will be chaotic anyway  3) not positive he should continue with computer science since he did poorly at the one school.

 

On the other hand, the one school is a small liberal arts school with very few computer science majors. The prof admitted in an email that my son showed me that half the students flunked his class last spring. So maybe he would have success if he just moved on. I do not think it speaks well of the prof or the class or whatever, when half the students flunk his class. So maybe it is not my son.

 

If he switches, it would be community college first, and then UT Dallas or UNT. He has mentioned A&M too, but not thinking he would head that way. Not sure though.

 

What do all my computer science guru's think here? Is it worth a shot at a different school? Or do you think failure at one school means you should move to a different major?

 

I told him to make the decision. He seems a little torn, but is leaning toward switching schools. I just was hoping for feedback, or anything I can share with him, or anything else, from the wise peeps on the Hive. Thanks!

[G5052]

I'm a computer science/IT professor at two different community colleges with solid transfer programs to 4-year schools.

 

Why did he fail the courses?  Did he not do the homework?  Didn't follow the instructions?

 

Computer science is a very homework-intensive, detailed major.  You have to do everything just so and on time.  Many of the assignments are progressive such that you'll fail the class if you miss one because you won't have the necessary parts of the system you're building and/or essential concepts.  Detailed exams are either absent or are secondary to the programming projects in most classes.  

 

If he had poor professors, that might be one factor.  But if he wan't getting things done, transferring may not help.

[Elisabet1]

I'm a computer science/IT professor at two different community colleges with solid transfer programs to 4-year schools.

 

Why did he fail the courses?  Did he not do the homework?  Didn't follow the instructions?

 

Computer science is a very homework-intensive, detailed major.  You have to do everything just so and on time.  Many of the assignments are progressive such that you'll fail the class if you miss one because you won't have the necessary parts of the system you're building and/or essential concepts.  Detailed exams are either absent or are secondary to the programming projects in most classes.  

 

If he had poor professors, that might be one factor.  But if he wan't getting things done, transferring may not help.

I am not certain. He had the same prof for each class he got those low grades. And when he asked the prof after the first class, the one he got the F in, the prof mentioned detail and such. But then said many struggled with it and about half the students flunked. So then, I wonder if it is the prof. I do not think half the students in a class should flunk. Does that sound right? But it did mention him not redoing one assignment where he was given the chance. That alone should not have done it. His teacher from AP computer science was a graduate from Texas A&M in computer science and he said my son was great at it and he thought my son would do well. But I also think my son perhaps thought he could skate by a little bit....or a lot bit. But I do not know. I had assumed it was just my son. Until the prof said in the email that about half flunked. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

What support was set up for him at college?  Do they have a disabilities coordinator?  A program for those with ASD?  My Aspie (ASD) son would not do well in college without support set up for him which we are working on figuring out now.  

[Jane in NC]

Unfortunately a number of students do not realize that programming is not the same as manipulating software.  I think that it is not unusual for intro programming courses to have high drop and failure rates.

 

Whether he should go, stay, stick to his major, etc. is not for me to say.  It really is up to the student and how hard he wants to work in a challenging discipline.

[SparklyUnicorn]

My husband took a couple of programming classes for his master's major.  They were brutally hard.  Harder than any of the other classes.  It's just the sort of thing that takes most people a lot of freaking time and discipline.  Programming is not really his favorite either.  I think it would be ok if he were getting Cs, but if he is flunking then either it's too much or he isn't putting in the work.  So I guess it comes down to how much he really wants to be a programmer. 

 

 

[G5052]

I am not certain. He had the same prof for each class he got those low grades. And when he asked the prof after the first class, the one he got the F in, the prof mentioned detail and such. But then said many struggled with it and about half the students flunked. So then, I wonder if it is the prof. I do not think half the students in a class should flunk. Does that sound right? But it did mention him not redoing one assignment where he was given the chance. That alone should not have done it. His teacher from AP computer science was a graduate from Texas A&M in computer science and he said my son was great at it and he thought my son would do well. But I also think my son perhaps thought he could skate by a little bit....or a lot bit. But I do not know. I had assumed it was just my son. Until the prof said in the email that about half flunked. 

 

Yes, having about half flunk isn't uncommon though.  That was pretty much the norm 30+ years ago in my undergraduate program in the first year or so, and is the norm at the community college too.  

 

The college that I teach computer science for has a very standardized course because it is a transfer program so that students can go to one of the two 4-year schools in the state that have top-notch ACM-aligned programs.  The grading and progression of projects and grading is exactly the same over the five campuses and online.  If a student flunks and then goes to another campus within that college or online, it is exactly the same course.  You either do it or you don't.

[sunnyday]

At my alma mater (a small liberal arts college) you actually could only earn a CS & Math degree, and the CS department was a subset of the math department. Programming is crazy hard discrete mathematics, which is a whole new world from most school mathematics. How is your son doing in his other university-level math classes?

[G5052]

My husband took a couple of programming classes for his master's major.  They were brutally hard.  Harder than any of the other classes.  It's just the sort of thing that takes most people a lot of freaking time and discipline.  Programming is not really his favorite either.  I think it would be ok if he were getting Cs, but if he is flunking then either it's too much or he isn't putting in the work.  So I guess it comes down to how much he really wants to be a programmer. 

 

Yes, computer science can be a brutally hard major.  Once I got to my junior year, I was in the computer center (no PC's yet) for at least 20 hours a week, usually more.  When you are writing operating systems, compilers, and huge simulations, it just takes a lot of time. 

 

Graduate school was even worse.  I was a professional programmer and then project manager, and was the writing more software on the evenings and weekends for my graduate studies.  Several classes required at least 40 hours of programming a week.  The software I wrote for my dissertation took several years to write, and would run for 10-12 hours before I got results. 

 

A professor friend of mine's son just got his M.S., and she said that it was the same for him, so things really haven't changed in 30 years that way.

[kiana]

You keep fixating on the "about half flunked and that is too high"

 

That isn't actually uncommon in introductory courses in many fields -- many students are unprepared for the work or think they can skate, and if the department requires more prerequisites or splits the course over an extra semester it makes the students who can handle it as it is it take longer and pay more to complete their degree. 

 

Some common fields where this happens: Math, Anatomy and Physiology (lots of people who want to be nurses have no idea how much science is actually involved), Accounting (a lot of people just pick this major by looking at the salary tables but really don't know what it is), CS (a lot of people pick CS because they like using programs someone else has written), Chemistry (lots of pre-meds who don't like math and so struggle with the quantitative aspects), and probably more that I'm not thinking of. 

 

Whether not resubmitting an assignment would knock someone to an F would depend on what percentage of the grade the assignment is, but I definitely had people last semester who got a D when they could have gotten a C if they'd bothered to resubmit the assignment worth 10% of their grade that they failed on the first attempt. 

[Elisabet1]

At my alma mater (a small liberal arts college) you actually could only earn a CS & Math degree, and the CS department was a subset of the math department. Programming is crazy hard discrete mathematics, which is a whole new world from most school mathematics. How is your son doing in his other university-level math classes?

One of the CS classes I referred to was called discrete math. He got a D or a D+ in it.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yes, computer science can be a brutally hard major.  Once I got to my junior year, I was in the computer center (no PC's yet) for at least 20 hours a week, usually more.  When you are writing operating systems, compilers, and huge simulations, it just takes a lot of time. 

 

Graduate school was even worse.  I was a professional programmer and then project manager, and was the writing more software on the evenings and weekends for my graduate studies.  Several classes required at least 40 hours of programming a week.  The software I wrote for my dissertation took several years to write, and would run for 10-12 hours before I got results. 

 

A professor friend of mine's son just got his M.S., and she said that it was the same for him, so things really haven't changed in 30 years that way.

 

Crazy thing is his graduate major wasn't computer programming, but he had to take some computer programming courses.  He did not enjoy them.  DS is very interested in programming.  At least DH can help him a bit.  

[Elisabet1]

He forwarded me the email from his prof......

 

 

There were several things you could have done to improve your performance this semester

1. Do all the homework and start it early. You got better on this at the end of the semester, but you missed/did  poorly on assignments in the beginning of the semester and this didn’t help. 

2. Attend all of the classes. Because the Core classes don’t have a textbook, there is no place that you can go to get resources aside from the notes and class. Moreover, in class, I often cover material that isn’t on the slides or is vaguely described in the slides, but the details or examples are presented in class. Showing up late and missing class can kill you on these things. 

3. Don’t take shortcuts when answering questions on tests. The biggest thing which kills you on tests is that you’ll come up with your own shorthand for answering a question, which kind of works but it omits all of the steps to arrive at your answer. So, if your shorthand isn’t correct or if you make a mistake in one of the steps that you did in your head your answer becomes completely wrong. As a result, you get no partial credit on that question. I often write questions that are very difficult to get 100% correct; however, they are fairly easy to get 80% correct. So, if you don’t show your work and you miss the answer I have no idea if you just guessed or if you just missed  a bit early on. 

 

If you can change these three behaviors, I think you’ll be good going forward. 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

 

He forwarded me the email from his prof......

 

 

There were several things you could have done to improve your performance this semester

1. Do all the homework and start it early. You got better on this at the end of the semester, but you missed/did  poorly on assignments in the beginning of the semester and this didn’t help. 

2. Attend all of the classes. Because the Core classes don’t have a textbook, there is no place that you can go to get resources aside from the notes and class. Moreover, in class, I often cover material that isn’t on the slides or is vaguely described in the slides, but the details or examples are presented in class. Showing up late and missing class can kill you on these things. 

3. Don’t take shortcuts when answering questions on tests. The biggest thing which kills you on tests is that you’ll come up with your own shorthand for answering a question, which kind of works but it omits all of the steps to arrive at your answer. So, if your shorthand isn’t correct or if you make a mistake in one of the steps that you did in your head your answer becomes completely wrong. As a result, you get no partial credit on that question. I often write questions that are very difficult to get 100% correct; however, they are fairly easy to get 80% correct. So, if you don’t show your work and you miss the answer I have no idea if you just guessed or if you just missed  a bit early on. 

 

If you can change these three behaviors, I think you’ll be good going forward. 

 

 

Ok, so it sounds like he didn't put the work in.

 

Nothing you can change about that.  It's all on him.

 

 

[kiana]

 

He forwarded me the email from his prof......

 

 

There were several things you could have done to improve your performance this semester

1. Do all the homework and start it early. You got better on this at the end of the semester, but you missed/did  poorly on assignments in the beginning of the semester and this didn’t help. 

2. Attend all of the classes. Because the Core classes don’t have a textbook, there is no place that you can go to get resources aside from the notes and class. Moreover, in class, I often cover material that isn’t on the slides or is vaguely described in the slides, but the details or examples are presented in class. Showing up late and missing class can kill you on these things. 

3. Don’t take shortcuts when answering questions on tests. The biggest thing which kills you on tests is that you’ll come up with your own shorthand for answering a question, which kind of works but it omits all of the steps to arrive at your answer. So, if your shorthand isn’t correct or if you make a mistake in one of the steps that you did in your head your answer becomes completely wrong. As a result, you get no partial credit on that question. I often write questions that are very difficult to get 100% correct; however, they are fairly easy to get 80% correct. So, if you don’t show your work and you miss the answer I have no idea if you just guessed or if you just missed  a bit early on. 

 

If you can change these three behaviors, I think you’ll be good going forward. 

 

 

This does not sound to me like "bad prof and he would have passed with a better prof". It sounds like he didn't turn in some assignments, missed class frequently enough for the professor to notice, and didn't show his work on tests. 

 

He needs to start the semester with his butt in gear and keep it in gear for the whole semester. CS, like math and foreign language, is very, very difficult to recover from a rough start. You cannot cram a semester's worth of work into "but I'll study really hard for a fewweeks". 

[G5052]

 

He forwarded me the email from his prof......

 

 

There were several things you could have done to improve your performance this semester

1. Do all the homework and start it early. You got better on this at the end of the semester, but you missed/did  poorly on assignments in the beginning of the semester and this didn’t help. 

2. Attend all of the classes. Because the Core classes don’t have a textbook, there is no place that you can go to get resources aside from the notes and class. Moreover, in class, I often cover material that isn’t on the slides or is vaguely described in the slides, but the details or examples are presented in class. Showing up late and missing class can kill you on these things. 

3. Don’t take shortcuts when answering questions on tests. The biggest thing which kills you on tests is that you’ll come up with your own shorthand for answering a question, which kind of works but it omits all of the steps to arrive at your answer. So, if your shorthand isn’t correct or if you make a mistake in one of the steps that you did in your head your answer becomes completely wrong. As a result, you get no partial credit on that question. I often write questions that are very difficult to get 100% correct; however, they are fairly easy to get 80% correct. So, if you don’t show your work and you miss the answer I have no idea if you just guessed or if you just missed  a bit early on. 

 

If you can change these three behaviors, I think you’ll be good going forward. 

 

 

Yes, I can imagine myself emailing the same thing.  You have to put up consistent effort all semester.  And its a lot like math in that you have to show all of your work on the written tests if they have them.

 

If he's prepared to change, future success is indeed possible, but he probably has to retake some or all of those courses.  The undergraduate school I went to required a "C" or better on all of courses in the first two years of the major in order to continue.

[Arcadia]

His prof is honest in his email. It is common for half a class to fail a CS class due to lack of effort.

 

Why did he skip homework and class? If those are too tiring, than CS might not be a suitable career goal because CS is lots of hard work and long hours.

[Elisabet1]

He imagines if he transfers to a state school, it will be easier. But I imagine it will not be.

[catz]

Unfortunately a number of students do not realize that programming is not the same as manipulating software. I think that it is not unusual for intro programming courses to have high drop and failure rates.

 

Whether he should go, stay, stick to his major, etc. is not for me to say. It really is up to the student and how hard he wants to work in a challenging discipline.

At least half freshman comp sci majors at my competitive big 10 tech program were weeded out in entry level classes. I do not think that is uncommon. I think pursuing tech degrees ends up being different, more difficult, and more intensive than expected for many kids. I have a bs in math and comp science. So I do not know anything about that proffesor, but for competitive, tech heavy programs I really do not think it is super unusual. And to me it sounds like this prof is exacting and on the ball.

[Elisabet1]

I wish his prof would stop saying fix all this and you will be good. I am glad he is encouraging, but this was the second semester of this. I wish he would say "you have had a second semester and did not correct this, perhaps computer science is not for you. You should consider other majors."

[SparklyUnicorn]

He imagines if he transfers to a state school, it will be easier. But I imagine it will not be.

 

I imagine not either.  He might get less personal attention too.

[Jean in Newcastle]

My Aspie (and many of the aspies I know) need some scaffolding of executive skills in order to do the simple things of completing homework and coming to class.  Again - what help does he have in light of his ASD and brain damage?  Transferring schools or majors will only be a success if he has help lined up to allow him to be successful.  

[SparklyUnicorn]

Oh geesh, I'm sorry I completely glossed over the autism/brain function thing.  I agree with Jean that maybe he needs help with keeping things organized. 

[kiana]

I wish his prof would stop saying fix all this and you will be good. I am glad he is encouraging, but this was the second semester of this. I wish he would say "you have had a second semester and did not correct this, perhaps computer science is not for you. You should consider other majors."

 

I don't understand why he should be telling him that this major is not for him. If he were attending class, submitting every assignment on time after starting early and seeking help, and still not passing, then the major might not be for him. 

[catz]

My husband took a couple of programming classes for his master's major. They were brutally hard. Harder than any of the other classes. It's just the sort of thing that takes most people a lot of freaking time and discipline. Programming is not really his favorite either. I think it would be ok if he were getting Cs, but if he is flunking then either it's too much or he isn't putting in the work. So I guess it comes down to how much he really wants to be a programmer.

Not to pick on sparkly, but there is a difference between training to be a programmer and training to be a designer or software engineer. You can get a basic programming or web development certificate in a 2 year program at a CC. You will qualified and applying for different kinds of jobs than you would with a more intensive 4 year degrees, or something like an MS in software engineering (my DH has that MS). Before jumping to another program, it might be worth some in depth investigation about what possible jobs would be. I also did hiring of comp sci majors and my DH still does. Even a BA from a small liberal arts school will be differently qualified than a BS in a competitive tech program. My DH at his software company looks for new grads out of certain programs and very intentionally avoid grads from other programs, because of the type of large, web based software they are developing. Anyway, I think it is just worth knowing not every programming or comp sci degree is created equally if he has a particular end job goal in mind.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Another thought I have is how many courses is he taking?  Could he possibly take fewer?  Even if it took a bit longer?  I know there are various rules with aid and all that so maybe not, but it's worth a consideration. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Not to pick on sparkly, but there is a difference between training to be a programmer and training to be a designer or software engineer. You can get a basic programming or web development certificate in a 2 year program at a CC. You will qualified and applying for different kinds of jobs than you would with a more intensive 4 year degrees, or something like an MS in software engineering (my DH has that MS). Before jumping to another program, it might be worth some in depth investigation about what possible jobs would be. I also did hiring of comp sci majors and my DH still does. Even a BA from a small liberal arts school will be differently qualified than a BS in a competitive tech program. My DH at his software company looks for new grads out of certain programs and very intentionally avoid grads from other programs, because of the type of large, web based software they are developing. Anyway, I think it is just worth knowing not every programming or comp sci degree is created equally if he has a particular end job goal in mind.

 

He wasn't even training to be a designer or software engineer!  LOL

 

But yes I know what you mean.  My sister went to a tech school that offered a certificate for something like that. 

[Jane in NC]

College students are adults.  While your son is under no obligation to share emails from professors (and mine would have been mortified if I had then posted it on a message board!), ultimately these decisions are his.

 

I hope that he is taking full advantage of special services available to him. Some students qualify for longer test times for example but choose not to avail themselves of accommodations in their desire to be "normal".  Again, you cannot force your son to go to class, take advantage of help or accommodation, see that his homework is submitted in a timely way.  You can be supportive of his decisions though. 

[regentrude]

I wish his prof would stop saying fix all this and you will be good. I am glad he is encouraging, but this was the second semester of this. I wish he would say "you have had a second semester and did not correct this, perhaps computer science is not for you. You should consider other majors."

 

but why should the prof say that?

It is not possible to decide whether a student is lacking aptitude for a major if the problem that causes underperforming is a lack of work ethic. I would NEVER tell a student whose problem is completion of assignments and attending class that he is not cut out to be whatever major - I would absolutely tell him to fix those areas first.

 

It is impossible to diagnose a lack of aptitude - unless the student is first putting in the necessary work, completing every assignment and attending every class, and STILL not getting results. Then it may be the time to have a discussion about changing majors.

ETA: It may, however, now be a time to discuss whether he WANTS to do this major and find out WHY he is not putting in time on task.

 

ETA: It looks like the professor is really interested in his students' success. He took the time to compose a very nice email with specific suggestions.

[Melinda in VT]

My Aspie (and many of the aspies I know) need some scaffolding of executive skills in order to do the simple things of completing homework and coming to class. Again - what help does he have in light of his ASD and brain damage? Transferring schools or majors will only be a success if he has help lined up to allow him to be successful.

I apologize if this comes out wrong--but how do students like this transition to the workplace? The same executive skills are needed on the job, and I'm not aware of any help in the workplace for people with poor executive skills.

 

I have a child with no diagnosis but significant executive skills issues, so this is not an idle question. Up until now, I have assumed that if my child can't succeed at college without accommodation, said child would not be able to be successful in the workforce.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I apologize if this comes out wrong--but how do students like this transition to the workplace? The same executive skills are needed on the job, and I'm not aware of any help in the workplace for people with poor executive skills.

 

I have a child with no diagnosis but significant executive skills issues, so this is not an idle question. Up until now, I have assumed that if my child can't succeed at college without accommodation, said child would not be able to be successful in the workforce.

I'm trying to figure this out too, so it didn't come out wrong!  I know that Microsoft and some other companies (but can't remember which ones) have programs specifically for employees with ASD.  Some of it is a maturity issue - I've been told that my Aspie should gain some of the skills and maturity to use those skills a bit later than other kids.  But I'm also working hard at trying to get my son to have routines that he can transfer to both school and the workplace.  

[kiana]

I do have an Aspie friend who has a job with computers. He's really good with diagnosing busted computers because he gets obsessed with what's going on and ends up spending 4 hours without noticing it. His boss basically lines up the computers in order of how he wants them fixed and otherwise leaves him alone. 

[elegantlion]

In my survey history class, if you didn't show up and take notes in class, you had less chance of doing well on the tests. And this was an easy class. I missed two classes and lost a lot of information (which I was able to make up). After a less than stellar first test for most of the class, the professor reiterated the importance of showing up and being active in the class. Part of doing well is understanding what the professor is looking for in assignments. I'm trying to stress this to my own son because he's stubborn and will avoid working hard if he thinks he already knows something. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

I do have an Aspie friend who has a job with computers. He's really good with diagnosing busted computers because he gets obsessed with what's going on and ends up spending 4 hours without noticing it. His boss basically lines up the computers in order of how he wants them fixed and otherwise leaves him alone. 

This is the kind of work I see my son doing.  

[Melinda in VT]

I'm trying to figure this out too, so it didn't come out wrong! I know that Microsoft and some other companies (but can't remember which ones) have programs specifically for employees with ASD. Some of it is a maturity issue - I've been told that my Aspie should gain some of the skills and maturity to use those skills a bit later than other kids. But I'm also working hard at trying to get my son to have routines that he can transfer to both school and the workplace.

Thank you for your response. We're working on routines and hoping time helps here as well.

[Vida Winter]

My 20 yr old with high functioning autism/brain trauma, is majoring in computer science and has been getting low grades in the computer science courses. He came in with AP credit in computer science, so he skipped the first class, which was probably a bad move. Then, the school is very small, so he has had one prof for the second class and earned a C. Then he had a different prof for the other 3 classes and earned an F and then D and D+.  He is doing fine in the rest of the classes.

 

Solutions we suggested were...

 

change his major. He actually earns A's and B's in his other classes and is a writing minor so he could switch to a writing major.

 

change schools....he could go part-time then and still major in computer science. His current financial aid situation requires full-time enrollment at the school he is at. 

 

First he was going to just change his major. He does not seem too interested in leaving his school. Then he realized his sister does not live here anymore and decided it would not be painful to move home and now he is saying he should perhaps move home and go to the local community college and recover his grades. He already took classes there last summer and earned A's.

 

My worry is  1)his sister will come back and our home will be right back in to chaos state   2) a baby will be born in March and things will be chaotic anyway  3) not positive he should continue with computer science since he did poorly at the one school.

 

On the other hand, the one school is a small liberal arts school with very few computer science majors. The prof admitted in an email that my son showed me that half the students flunked his class last spring. So maybe he would have success if he just moved on. I do not think it speaks well of the prof or the class or whatever, when half the students flunk his class. So maybe it is not my son.

 

If he switches, it would be community college first, and then UT Dallas or UNT. He has mentioned A&M too, but not thinking he would head that way. Not sure though.

 

What do all my computer science guru's think here? Is it worth a shot at a different school? Or do you think failure at one school means you should move to a different major?

 

I told him to make the decision. He seems a little torn, but is leaning toward switching schools. I just was hoping for feedback, or anything I can share with him, or anything else, from the wise peeps on the Hive. Thanks!

 

Whatever school he ends up attending, the CS classes are likely to present the same difficulties. CS introductory courses are *meant* to weed out students. It takes dedication and a willingness to put in many, many hours to do well. It is also a different type of learning than he is probably used to. He needs to take careful notes in lecture and apply it to programming assignments, many of which turn into huge projects - much bigger than you would expect one to be able to finish in a short (1-2 week) time period. Not only that, the code must work for all conditions and have darn good documentation. Attention to detail is essential. Once it is turned in, the next project is assigned and it starts all over again..and again...and again.

 

It will come down to what he decides to do. He can't go at it with anything less than a 100% effort - and then maybe even a greater effort to make up for his autism. I don't say this to be discouraging - it simply requires the kind of effort I have described.

 

[Lanny]

I suggest that your DS change his major to something that is not in the College of Engineering.  I agree that it was a mistake for him not to take the first semester CS course in the school he is currently attending. He is doing extremely poorly in the field he is interested in working in. That is not going to fly with potential employers who will look at his grades in those courses, with extreme interest.

 

I do not believe it is wrong for a Professor to flunk half of his students, if an F is what they deserve. Years ago, we knew a man here who taught Physics in the Public university, which is the best university in the city of Cali. There, he could, if necessary, flunk the entire class, if the students earned an "F".

 

Then, the university had a severe budget crisis and he began teaching in a Private university. More like a business...  I remember him telling us that one of his students told him that he couldn't complete the work because they had 600 plus TV channels available.  In the Private university, he would not have been able to flunk the entire class if they earned an "F". He had some excellent students in the Private university, but there is a reason I respect people with diplomas from the Public university...

 

Majoring in CS in a Liberal Arts school was probably not a good way to go. Potential employers would probably strongly prefer graduates of a school where Engineering is a field they have a history of success in teaching.

 

I worked on a contract in WA with a young man who had Dyslexia. He graduated as an Electronic Engineer and was employed by a corporation whose name you know. The first time I worked under contract to that corporation, I was told they had a list of approximately 50 universities and if someone was not a graduate of one of those universities, their badge would not have the title "Engineer" on it. I do not have a degree, but because I was a Contractor, my badge had "Engineer" on it.

 

I believe your DS should discard the possible idea of going to Texas A&M or any other Engineering school in that league. This is a very rigorous Major in a university and the work is demanding.  There is a web page of the College of Engineering at Tech (Texas Tech University), one of their basic web pages, that makes it explicitly clear that it is a rigorous career and that if a student is not doing well and cannot recover, with the help they offer, they will be assisted in transferring to another College within the university.

 

One of my colleagues dropped out of industry years ago (he was fed up with the way Engineers are frequently treated by employers) and he began teaching Math at a Community College in Texas. The problem for your DS if he takes courses in a Community College is that sadly the majority of the courses are not equivalent and he should not take any courses related to his Major in a Community College.  

 

I did not read  the previous replies in the thread before writing this, so probably others who reply will have much better suggestions for your DS. My suggestion is that he Major in something not in the College of Engineering. Much GL to your DS and family!

[G5052]

 

One of my colleagues dropped out of industry years ago (he was fed up with the way Engineers are frequently treated by employers) and he began teaching Math at a Community College in Texas. The problem for your DS if he takes courses in a Community College is that sadly the majority of the courses are not equivalent and he should not take any courses related to his Major in a Community College.  

 

 

 

FWIW -- this varies.  The community college where I teach CSC has very solid math and computer science.  The computer science is based on the ACM standards, and we regularly transfer computer science students to well-known technical schools without any problem.  Naturally their grades have to be stellar, but it isn't uncommon at all.  A major in computer science at this school is designated as a transfer degree, not a terminal 2-year degree.  Two friends of ours also did pre-engineering within the same system, and they're graduating in May with engineering degrees from a name brand school with multiple offers.  Again, no problems going from a 2-year to 4-year school here.

[EmilyGF]

Can he go back and take the intro class? I know that many AP classes aren't really the college level classes they claim to be, even when you have passed the exam. Often they are much more plug-and-chug and less theoretical. 

 

 

[Lanny]

FWIW -- this varies.  The community college where I teach CSC has very solid math and computer science.  The computer science is based on the ACM standards, and we regularly transfer computer science students to well-known technical schools without any problem.  Naturally their grades have to be stellar, but it isn't uncommon at all.  A major in computer science at this school is designated as a transfer degree, not a terminal 2-year degree.  Two friends of ours also did pre-engineering within the same system, and they're graduating in May with engineering degrees from a name brand school with multiple offers.  Again, no problems going from a 2-year to 4-year school here.

 

Sounds like the school where you teach is very serious and that is wonderful. It is a matter of comparing Apples to Apples and not comparing Apples to Oranges.

 

The OP wrote that her DS had taken an AP course and that he did not take the first semester CS course and I believe that was a mistake. Seems like there was at least one thread here on WTM recently about universities getting more selective about which AP courses, if any, they allow credit for. Again, it's a matter of comparing Apples to Apples.  Not everything is equivalent, although it might look that way on paper.

 

When my wife was making Breakfast this morning, I was telling her about this thread and what I wrote. I believe it is best for students to major in something they are interested in and in something they have talent for. Based on what the OP wrote about his grades, I believe the academic strengths of her son are in other areas and are not involved with CS or Engineering. 

[Word Nerd]

He imagines if he transfers to a state school, it will be easier. But I imagine it will not be.

He needs to stop focusing on some imaginary CS program that isn't hard and decide whether he's willing to work, go to class, and put in his best effort. There is little if any support to back up the assertion that his grades are because of the professor rather than his own performance. He may have resources available on campus to help him with academic work, study skills, etc., but he still needs to seek them out and understand that it's going to require a lot of hard work no matter where he goes or who teaches the classes.

[bettyandbob]

Based on the email you posted, your ds has executive function deficits. Transferring to a less competitive school will not change that. He may do just as bad or worse, because he will think he can get away with more. He needs to admit this is a disability he has. Then he needs to figure out strategies to compensate for these deficits that will work for him. You could look at books or around the web for strategies. Your ds could work with an ADHD coach on strategies, but in the end your ds has to decide which strategies to adopt and he has to decided to consistently apply them. Until then, you ds will have trouble in classes.

 

Your ds may have some classes he does well in, but if he changes majors to something you perceive as "easier for him" keep in mind there comes a point in most degrees that classes are difficult, expectations for deep analysis and deadlines are raised. Some people think degrees like English or History are easier than computer science or chemistry. I knew quite a few STEM people in college who would not have done well in English -- me being one of them. So, the fact that your ds is doing well in nonSTEM courses may suggest he is better suited to them. However, at this point in his college studies he is not taking 300 and 400 level courses. Additionally, in a nonSTEM program his need for executive function skills to land internships and jobs will be very high. 

 

I have a kid with executive function deficits. He's done a year at a military program (NMMI). He did fine academically there because order was imposed upon him (required class attendance, required PT, required study period, etc). He chose that route, but decided the school itself was not a good fit. He has been at the local cc for a year and a half. Executive function deficits were very obvious in the first few terms, especially in online courses. He's starting to get the hang of what he must do. He will not accept organizational help from me at all, so I think he did far more stumbling than he needed to. He's now looking at transfer options. 

 

There are some colleges that have programs specifically to help persons with executive function deficits (Marshall University has this). There are schools that provide assistance through their disability services offices. Some cc's have services. I think your ds needs to admit to himself (not mouth agreement to mom) that he has a problem and go work with what ever school he attends applying his own strategies and using whatever accomodations they offer. 

[saw]

What is the difference between the classes your ds is doing well in and those he is not doing well in, in terms of his effort? Is his attendance in all of his classes the same? Is his attention to homework and tests the same? Or is he doing better in some classes because he has higher attendance and a higher rate of compliance with the work required? If he's going to all of his English classes and doing all of the homework, eg, but missing quite a few CS classes and failing to turn in assignments for CS, then what is the reason for this? Is it because he likes the English classes better, or because these are at a time of day that works better for him? Or is it because he has difficulty understanding the prof for CS but the prof for English is speaks clearly? Or because of something structural, like where he sits in class?

 

[EmilyGF]

What is the difference between the classes your ds is doing well in and those he is not doing well in, in terms of his effort? Is his attendance in all of his classes the same? Is his attention to homework and tests the same? Or is he doing better in some classes because he has higher attendance and a higher rate of compliance with the work required? If he's going to all of his English classes and doing all of the homework, eg, but missing quite a few CS classes and failing to turn in assignments for CS, then what is the reason for this? Is it because he likes the English classes better, or because these are at a time of day that works better for him? Or is it because he has difficulty understanding the prof for CS but the prof for English is speaks clearly? Or because of something structural, like where he sits in class?

So true. 

[Mergath]

change his major. He actually earns A's and B's in his other classes and is a writing minor so he could switch to a writing major.

 

Does his school actually offer a writing major?  Most that I've seen only offer it as a minor.  Either way, if he doesn't go on to earn an MFA, it's not going to do him much good.  And graduate level writing courses require quite a bit of discipline, too, not to mention a good bit of inherent talent.  (I was invited to take a few as an undergrad in college, and they're also not for people with thin skin.  Yikes.  Hello, constructive criticism.)  And as far as undergrad liberal arts classes, they tend to be quite a bit harder in the higher levels.  At the state university I attended, in the 100-level courses, you could get an A if you could read, basically.  In the 400-level courses, I was writing twenty to thirty page literature papers that I probably wouldn't even understand if I went back to reread them now, based on primary sources that were barely even in English.  

 

He might benefit from taking a year or two off, if his problem is that he doesn't have the discipline to get the work done.  I had that problem at his age.  I went straight to college after high school, and I was so enthralled with being a grown up and being able to do whatever I wanted that I didn't get much done.  I took a couple years off, spent some time in the Army, grew up a little, figured out more about what I wanted to do with my life, and then went back to college and did fantastic.  Not everyone is ready for college at the same time, and that's okay.  It's better to go when you're ready and to get more out of it.

[Catwoman]

I wish his prof would stop saying fix all this and you will be good. I am glad he is encouraging, but this was the second semester of this. I wish he would say "you have had a second semester and did not correct this, perhaps computer science is not for you. You should consider other majors."

Honestly, the professor's comments could very well have applied to any course or any major.

 

Your son is not attending his classes and he is not doing the work.

 

Please don't take this the wrong way, but are you sure he belongs in college? If he isn't going to apply himself and do all of the necessary work and studying, he is wasting both time and money.

 

He doesn't necessarily need a different major. He needs to do the work. But it sounds like he has known that for a few semesters and he still isn't doing what he needs to do, so this may be more about attitude than ability.

 

If he moves back home, can you help him stay on track? If so, it might be a good idea. If he stays where he is, are there any programs designed to help students with his disabilities get organized? Are there tutors who could help him with his coursework? Again, his own motivation is still the wild card here. If he isn't motivated to succeed, no amount of support will help him.

[Lanny]

Catwoman, in post #46, made some excellent points and she raised some excellent questions for the OP and her DS.  I wonder if he can go to a Counselor in the school he currently attends? I'm not sure which office that would be in, for students who are very confused about their career choices, major, etc., and talk this out with someone who is not his mother.  If he can be honest about where is is and about what is happening, they might help him figure this out.

 

Probably some testing for career interests, talents, etc., would be a good idea.

 

I don't think him transferring to another school, is going to cause him to change and it might exacerbate the problems. He needs to learn some very basic skills like Time Management and Self Discipline. Those skills are vital to university students, whatever their major might be.

 

Whether it is as a CS major or Business Administration or Education. he needs to eliminate what caused him to skip so many classes and assignments for CS courses.

 

Transferring to UT Dallas, or UNT or SMU or Tech or UT Arlington or some other school is just going to have him and his problems moving from one school to another.  

 

I was a Software Engineer and it takes not only intelligence but a lot of perseverance and ability to cope with solving one frustrating mystery after another. He may not have that patience and if not, he will not succeed in the Software Engineering world.

[ktgrok]

He sounds a lot like me in some ways. I definitely have executive function issues. I was a science major, and that didn't work out. I switched to a humanities major, and was fine. Got all A's. The structure of the class was different...it was big ideas, not detail work. Sounds like your son may dislike detail oriented stuff as much as I do. Which means not only is the degree a bad choice, but he'd probably hate the job he got even if he did do well. From what people are describing here it sounds like my worst nightmare of a job!  

 

I did get a different science degree later...a Vet Tech degree (AS), but they were much easier classes, and I had the benefit of loving my job in an animal hospital, so it was applicable to daily life. But as far as enjoying classes and doing well, I did much better in Anthropology, Comparative Religion, etc. 

[Catwoman]

Catwoman, in post #46, made some excellent points and she raised some excellent questions for the OP and her DS. I wonder if he can go to a Counselor in the school he currently attends? I'm not sure which office that would be in, for students who are very confused about their career choices, major, etc., and talk this out with someone who is not his mother. If he can be honest about where is is and about what is happening, they might help him figure this out.

 

Probably some testing for career interests, talents, etc., would be a good idea.

 

I don't think him transferring to another school, is going to cause him to change and it might exacerbate the problems. He needs to learn some very basic skills like Time Management and Self Discipline. Those skills are vital to university students, whatever their major might be.

 

Whether it is as a CS major or Business Administration or Education. he needs to eliminate what caused him to skip so many classes and assignments for CS courses.

 

Transferring to UT Dallas, or UNT or SMU or Tech or UT Arlington or some other school is just going to have him and his problems moving from one school to another.

 

I was a Software Engineer and it takes not only intelligence but a lot of perseverance and ability to cope with solving one frustrating mystery after another. He may not have that patience and if not, he will not succeed in the Software Engineering world.

:iagree:

[Jean in Newcastle]

:iagree:

You're just quoting him because he said that you made excellent points.   ;)  :D  :leaving: