Shiloh Pitt & very young children with gender identity issues

[Haiku]

I want to make sure my kids know the choices are their own and that they never need to get married because it is expected of them.

 

While I understand what you are saying, I think it is inevitable that children grow up believing that things are expected of them. Cultural norms are what they are, and kids get the messages pretty much regardless of what we do to try to counter that. I also want my kids to know that they are free to make choices for their lives, but I don't spend too much time and energy trying to counter pervasive human nature. My kids can look at my own life to see that people can make their own choices that buck the cultural norm. ;)

[Haiku]

What if they don't meet someone to partner up with?

 

Surely I can't be the only one who knows single adults who never met "the one" and really wanted to?!

 

I'm not sure how this contradicts what I said. Yes, I know people who wish to partner up but haven't found "the one." But what I said is that it's in our DNA to want to partner up. That's why the message is so pervasive. It's what the vast majority of people want.

[Joanne]

What if they don't meet someone to partner up with?

 

Surely I can't be the only one who knows single adults who never met "the one" and really wanted to?!

Or they decide that partnering for life is not their thing? And that they might prefer serial relationships? Or companioning without cohabitation?

[Joanne]

That bit about needing someone to "complete" you is not really the message at all.

 

It's simply preferable to have someone by your side, especially after your parents are gone. It makes life easier to know that person is there to drive you home from surgery, and spend recovery time with you, and be there for you when you need someone. Who does not want that?

I can have that without a romantic, cohabitation partner.

 

More people are deciding that conventional is ok- and so is not wanting conventional.

[*Lulu*]

What if they don't meet someone to partner up with?

 

Surely I can't be the only one who knows single adults who never met "the one" and really wanted to?!

Exactly.

 

I have two very dear friends from college that are approaching 40 as singles. They have not only not married, but have not been in any serious relationship since they turned 20. They have both been caused great pain by people trying to "fix" them by pairing them with anybody with a pulse. Both are very devout Christians and have felt the isolation of being a single Christian adult in thier denominations and social circles. I think they have both found a happy balance, but they did it as an uphill fight.

 

I have one of our close church members who is mid-forties having never been married. Her life is full. And she is surrounded by family. Some are biologically related others are the family she has created.

 

One of my grandmothers was a woman whose husband divorced her after she had a still birth and discovered she would never carry to term. She was an only child who had no blood relations living in a 500 mile radius, but she had family aplenty. She WAS my grandmother. Up and down our street she had children who adopted her as an extra grandmother. When we married she was treated, seated, honored along with our other grandparents. She attended concerts, football games, graduations, and first communions. She sent us care packages when we went away to college and was in the waiting room with everyone else as I labored with my first child. In her final days she was cared for by multiple "family members" of our street who she trusted so much she gave power of attorney to when she began to suffer from dementia. Her life was lived fully, beautifully, and I would guess that a good many who marry and are surrounded by blood relations are not as blessed with loving family as she was.

[MrsBasil]

I think it's weird to speculate about Shiloh specifically. Her parents have not released any new information. Get father mentioned her liking to be called "John" when she was 2. Her mother's quote about boy's clothes and haircuts came from 2010. They aren't saying anything now, the whole thing was brought up and rehashed by a tabloid because Shiloh showed up to her mother's movie premiere in a suit, along with her father and brothers.

 

They have not said a word about her gender or her name preferences now. I mean, I know multiple boys who dressed up as Elsa for Halloween, love My Little Pony, and get excited to play dress up with sparkly jewelry. They are 6 and under and it's just that, a preference for toys, clothes, and fun. It's not a big deal or a statement, no different than a girl playing in a Batman costume or with Ninja Turtles. I'm in my 30s, so are my friends, and clothing choices and toys are not, by themselves, statements.

 

I have no idea what I would do in a situation with a child who thought they were born the wrong gender, but I hope I'd do whatever was in the best interests of my child to be healthy and emotionally happy as a child and as an adult.

[TranquilMind]

I can have that without a romantic, cohabitation partner.

 

More people are deciding that conventional is ok- and so is not wanting conventional.

Sure, you find someone without that.  But it's a good thing to have it. 

[TranquilMind]

I meant this in the widest terms possible. Much of what you mention here is exactly the type of thing that can be influenced, I think — things like dietary habits, politeness, how to treat other people. What we can't do is change the basic traits of a person, whether they are introverted or extroverted, what their passions and talents are, that kind of thing. 

 

I have an extremely stubborn child, one who has a big "injustice radar". She will not let go and be obedient if she believes she is right. I can't change that. I can direct that positively, and teach her how to use her innate tendencies for good. Perhaps she'll make a great lawyer one day. She'll never make a great diplomat. That's just the way it is. 

Apparently, one of my children is living at your house.  ;/

[TranquilMind]

Ah, if you have one too, you understand. An inherent, unchangeable trait is one that just doesn't go away, no matter what you try. Accepting it and trying to help the child use it positively is much more productive than continuing to fight it.

 

Now, what if that child kept signalling they were not the gender you thought they were, no matter how much you tried to guide them to accept the gender you thought applied?  

I find that unrealistic, with the obvious contraindications of either one set of genitals or the other.   We are born what we are; whether we accept it or not is another issue.  I just don't start from the presumption that this is a variable trait like personality. 

 

I have heard all the ..."our gender is not the same as our sex"  trendiness, ad nauseum - interestingly, only very recently.  I just don't agree.    I don't care how many times it is repeated as current unassailable orthodoxy.  If you are born male, you are born male, and your parents do you no favors in indulging your fantasies about that, unlike, say, indulging your fantasies about being a fairy or an animal in early childhood.

 

Yeah, I know.  So unpopular and untrendy. 

 

(Caveat: RARE cases of fused twin eggs or possessing organs of both genders, etc do occur.  These are extraordinarily rare and not what I am talking about here.)

[LucyStoner]

I find that unrealistic, with the obvious contraindications of either one set of genitals or the other. We are born what we are; whether we accept it or not is another issue. I just don't start from the presumption that this is a variable trait like personality.

 

I have heard all the ..."our gender is not the same as our sex" trendiness, ad nauseum - interestingly, only very recently. I just don't agree. I don't care how many times it is repeated as current unassailable orthodoxy. If you are born male, you are born male, and your parents do you no favors in indulging your fantasies about that, unlike, say, indulging your fantasies about being a fairy or an animal in early childhood.

 

Yeah, I know. So unpopular and untrendy.

 

(Caveat: RARE cases of fused twin eggs or possessing organs of both genders, etc do occur. These are extraordinarily rare and not what I am talking about here.)

Would people please stop likening being transgendered to fantasizing that one is a fairy or animal? It is ridiculously insulting to people like my brother.

 

The fact that you were apparently until recently uninformed about the distinction between gender identity and biological sex doesn't make it either trendy or impossible that they have long been distinct ideas. If they were one and the same why would we have two different words at all?

 

I assure you that there have been transgendered people long before it was considered (by you) to be trendy. I also assure you that my brother wasn't making a trendy choice when he sought needed treatment which has allowed him to live a healthy, happy life.

[Brit29]

I think there is a time when it is humoring and when it is honoring a child's transgender feelings. Letting your 2 year old boy wear a dress to the store is humoring him. Allowing an 8 year old to wear a suit is honoring.

 

People that are transgender are going to feel that way whether or not their parents acknowledge it. Now, I run in some pretty liberal, hippy circles, and I DO know of some people that have expressed a desire to have trans children or gay children...and it does appear they force some of that onto their children. I can think of 2 families that I don't feel are honoring their children's identities in this regard. However, this is not the norm.

Shiloh seems to have legitimate transgender feelings. This does not seem to be a phase, it seems to be her way of life. In this case, the parents would actively be harming their child by forcing her to dress or act a certain way. 

 

As far as how I'd react. Well, I'd like to say I'd react in a manner that would honor my child. It would be hard for me, as I would have no clue how they are feeling. The name thing would be hard for me as well. I named my children in a very personal way. If one of them felt it wasn't fitting, I would have a adjustment period for sure. But again, that's my problem and not theirs. 

[LibraryLover]

I'm a little worried I wrote her/she. I respect the child, I'm just not knowledgable enough about the this particular little one. I don't mean to offend.

[Runningmom80]

I'm a little worried I wrote her/she. I respect the child, I'm just not knowledgable enough about the this particular little one. I don't mean to offend.

 

Angelina referred to her as "she" recently. 

[TranquilMind]

Would people please stop likening being transgendered to fantasizing that one is a fairy or animal? It is ridiculously insulting to people like my brother.

 

The fact that you were apparently until recently uninformed about the distinction gender identity and biological sex doesn't make it either trendy or impossible that they have long been distinct ideas. If they were one and the same why would we have two different words at all?

 

I assure you that there have been transgendered people long before it was considered (by you) to be trendy. I also assure you that my brother wasn't making a trendy choice when he sought needed treatment which has allowed him to live a healthy, happy life.

We don't have separate words.  Or we didn't, until very recently.   Every government form or official form you have ever filled out has "sex" on it somewhere, and it always means your gender.  Until the past few years, when suddenly, gender and sex have been disassociated by some. 

[Daria]

I'm a little worried I wrote her/she. I respect the child, I'm just not knowledgable enough about the this particular little one. I don't mean to offend.

 

If I need to talk about her, I'm going to use "Shiloh" and she/her until Shiloh herself, or someone in a position to speak for her (her parents, perhaps a sibling when she's older that she has asked to speak on her behalf) asks me to do otherwise.  Although I'm a big believer in honoring people by using the names and genders they ask me to use, I don't think it's appropriate to use a name that the media has basically made up to gain website.

 

 

In my limited experiences there are a wide variety of girls and women who choose to wear male clothing some or all of the time.  I have a sister who wears mens clothing almost exclusively, and has since she finally wore my parents down enough to allow it.  She uses a male nickname for her feminine given name (e.g. Charlie for Charlotte).  She also clearly identifies as a woman and a lesbian.  She refers to herself as "Aunt" when talking to my child.  To call her "him" or "Uncle" would not be respectful.  That's just one example.  In my mind it's just as likely that Shiloh identifies as a girl who likes boys clothing as it is that she identifies as a boy.  So, until I'm told explicitly otherwise, I'll follow the lead of the people who know her best, her parents.

 

In addition, in my experience, people who do transition to another gender, at least those who transition at a young age, take time to experiment with names before settling on the one that seems "right".  If, in fact, Shiloh uses another name at home it wouldn't surprise me at all if she's moved on from John to something else.  Who knows, maybe she has a new name that ends in an X to fit in with her brothers.  

[Haiku]

Every government form or official form you have ever filled out has "sex" on it somewhere, and it always means your gender.

No, it doesn't, it means your physiological sex.

[poppy]

 

In my limited experiences there are a wide variety of girls and women who choose to wear male clothing some or all of the time.  I have a sister who wears mens clothing almost exclusively, and has since she finally wore my parents down enough to allow it.  She uses a male nickname for her feminine given name (e.g. Charlie for Charlotte).  She also clearly identifies as a woman and a lesbian.  She refers to herself as "Aunt" when talking to my child.  To call her "him" or "Uncle" would not be respectful.  That's just one example.  In my mind it's just as likely that Shiloh identifies as a girl who likes boys clothing as it is that she identifies as a boy.  So, until I'm told explicitly otherwise, I'll follow the lead of the people who know her best, her parents.

 

Butch lesbians and transgender people are not the same thing, at all.  Transgender folks tend to embrace steroetype (suit and short haircut), not defy them.

[poppy]

We don't have separate words.  Or we didn't, until very recently.   Every government form or official form you have ever filled out has "sex" on it somewhere, and it always means your gender.  Until the past few years, when suddenly, gender and sex have been disassociated by some. 

 

Gender studies was a well established major when I went to college over 20 years ago..... gender and sex being separate is not remotely a new idea to many of us.

[Joanne]

We don't have separate words.  Or we didn't, until very recently.   Every government form or official form you have ever filled out has "sex" on it somewhere, and it always means your gender.  Until the past few years, when suddenly, gender and sex have been disassociated by some. 

 

 

Understanding, insight, comprehension and wisdom evolve and develop. The trans population is the least understood (and researched) of the sexual minorities - and sexual minorities are under-researched as it is.

 

Understanding trans issues and developing a vocabulary is not creating something new, it is understanding something that has always existed.

 

Thank goodness we have come a long way - but we still have a long, long way to grow and learn.

 

 

[Catwoman]

Angelina referred to her as "she" recently.

I think it is incredibly disrespectful that some people seem to be referring to Shiloh Pitt as a "he" when her own mother speaks of her as a girl.

 

I also dislike it that this poor child is being turned into some sort of poster child for being transgendered, when neither she nor her parents have ever identified her as being transgendered.

 

Wearing boys' clothing and having short hair does not automatically indicate that Shiloh has gender identity issues.

[Daria]

Butch lesbians and transgender people are not the same thing, at all.  Transgender folks tend to embrace steroetype (suit and short haircut), not defy them.

 

I agree with you 100%.  My point is that given what we know about Shiloh:

 

1) She wears her hair short

 

2) She wears boys clothing

 

3) For at least some period of time when she was a toddler she liked to be called by the name "John"

 

4) When she was 4 she was said to enjoy playing with her older brothers, and expressed a desire to be like them

 

There are lots of different possible outcomes.  She could grow up to be a man, but she could also grow up to be a woman like my sister, or a straight woman who enjoys wearing men's clothing, or many other outcomes.  To assume that because she likes to wear a suit and a short haircut she must be a boy, isn't any more respectful than assuming that because she has XX chromosomes she must be a girl.  There are probably at least as many women out there who like suits and short haircuts as there are men who have XX chromosomes.  

[LucyStoner]

We don't have separate words. Or we didn't, until very recently. Every government form or official form you have ever filled out has "sex" on it somewhere, and it always means your gender. Until the past few years, when suddenly, gender and sex have been disassociated by some.

The word gender is hardly some newfangled invention.

[Brit29]

I think it is incredibly disrespectful that some people seem to be referring to Shiloh Pitt as a "he" when her own mother speaks of her as a girl.

 

I also dislike it that this poor child is being turned into some sort of poster child for being transgendered, when neither she nor her parents have ever identified her as being transgendered.

 

Wearing boys' clothing and having short hair does not automatically indicate that Shiloh has gender identity issues.

 

Ah, that was my mistake. I haven't followed the story closely and assumed Shiloh was being referred to as "he" based on all the media commotion. I see now that's not the case. 

[TranquilMind]

I think it is incredibly disrespectful that some people seem to be referring to Shiloh Pitt as a "he" when her own mother speaks of her as a girl.

 

I also dislike it that this poor child is being turned into some sort of poster child for being transgendered, when neither she nor her parents have ever identified her as being transgendered.

 

Wearing boys' clothing and having short hair does not automatically indicate that Shiloh has gender identity issues.

Totally agreed. 

[TranquilMind]

I agree with you 100%.  My point is that given what we know about Shiloh:

 

1) She wears her hair short

 

2) She wears boys clothing

 

3) For at least some period of time when she was a toddler she liked to be called by the name "John"

 

4) When she was 4 she was said to enjoy playing with her older brothers, and expressed a desire to be like them

 

There are lots of different possible outcomes.  She could grow up to be a man, but she could also grow up to be a woman like my sister, or a straight woman who enjoys wearing men's clothing, or many other outcomes.  To assume that because she likes to wear a suit and a short haircut she must be a boy, isn't any more respectful than assuming that because she has XX chromosomes she must be a girl.  There are probably at least as many women out there who like suits and short haircuts as there are men who have XX chromosomes.  

There are no men who have XX chromosomes. No, she cannot grow up to BE a man.  She can act like a man. She can dress like a man.  She can even have some surgery to chop off body parts and take hormones.  But she will never be a man.  

 

She is a beautiful girl. 

[Amy in NH]

I think there is a time when it is humoring and when it is honoring a child's transgender feelings. Letting your 2 year old boy wear a dress to the store is humoring him. Allowing an 8 year old to wear a suit is honoring.

 

People that are transgender are going to feel that way whether or not their parents acknowledge it. Now, I run in some pretty liberal, hippy circles, and I DO know of some people that have expressed a desire to have trans children or gay children...and it does appear they force some of that onto their children. I can think of 2 families that I don't feel are honoring their children's identities in this regard. However, this is not the norm.

Shiloh seems to have legitimate transgender feelings. This does not seem to be a phase, it seems to be her way of life. In this case, the parents would actively be harming their child by forcing her to dress or act a certain way. 

 

As far as how I'd react. Well, I'd like to say I'd react in a manner that would honor my child. It would be hard for me, as I would have no clue how they are feeling. The name thing would be hard for me as well. I named my children in a very personal way. If one of them felt it wasn't fitting, I would have a adjustment period for sure. But again, that's my problem and not theirs. 

 

This is the hardest part for me.  :(

 

[Tsuga]

Probably Angilina Jolie and Brad Pitt. They aren't the most normal/ stable/ conventional among us.

 

The only possible evidence you could give for such an assertion would be tabloid gossip, which is the lowest, meanest form of talk on the planet.

 

They (the tabloids) sell hate and judgment. Shame on them.

 

As for Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt, I have never read anything about them from a normal source that would indicate that they are anything other than normal people with exceptional looks and the means to do what many would love to do, which is care for many adopted children with lots of love.

 

I can't fault them for that.

 

As for normal, screw normal, and I don't say "screw" lightly. Conventional? Who cares? Isn't a convention precisely what we do for no other reason, than that everyone has always done it that way?

 

What an incredibly stupid reason to do anything. Polite, fine. Considerate, fine. But conventional?

 

 

There are no men who have XX chromosomes.

 

Ohoho yes there are. I know several personally. There are even people with two XX chromosomes who are born men, and still some with XXY. This is probably one of the most verifiably false claims ever made on this board.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter_syndrome

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_reassignment_surgery_%28female-to-male%29

 

Warning--sexy XX men ahead:

 

http://www.oddee.com/item_98038.aspx

[Scarlett]

The only possible evidence you could give for such an assertion would be tabloid gossip, which is the lowest, meanest form of talk on the planet.

 

They (the tabloids) sell hate and judgment. Shame on them.

 

As for Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt, I have never read anything about them from a normal source that would indicate that they are anything other than normal people with exceptional looks and the means to do what many would love to do, which is care for many adopted children with lots of love.

 

I can't fault them for that.

 

As for normal, screw normal, and I don't say "screw" lightly. Conventional? Who cares? Isn't a convention precisely what we do for no other reason, than that everyone has always done it that way?

 

What an incredibly stupid reason to do anything. Polite, fine. Considerate, fine. But conventional?

 

 

Ohoho yes there are. I know several personally. There are even people with two XX chromosomes who are born men, and still some with XXY. This is probably one of the most verifiably false claims ever made on this board.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter_syndrome

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_reassignment_surgery_%28female-to-male%29

 

Warning--sexy XX men ahead:

 

http://www.oddee.com/item_98038.aspx

I don't read tabloids. What I know about them is what I pick up on the news or here...and clearly the media loves them....and yet I think they are out there and like being out there.

 

Sometimes conventions are in place for very good reasons.

[LucyStoner]

There are no men who have XX chromosomes. No, she cannot grow up to BE a man. She can act like a man. She can dress like a man. She can even have some surgery to chop off body parts and take hormones. But she will never be a man.

 

She is a beautiful girl.

I don't know, and I don't care if Shiloh is transgendered or not. But your claim here amounts to saying that transgendered people are just pretending. They are not. Not only does my brother consider himself male, he is legally male.

 

Before you make claims about other people's lives, perhaps seek first to understand them.

[Tsuga]

I don't read tabloids. What I know about them is what I pick up on the news or here...and clearly the media loves them....and yet I think they are out there and like being out there.

 

Sometimes conventions are in place for very good reasons.

 

You pick up stuff on the news, like, in the New York Times, discussing unsavory personal habits of Brad Pitt? How? I read the NYT and local paper every day and the only thing I ever hear about Angelina Jolie (usually, that she's starving, well I would be too with nine kids or whatever, how that woman survives is beyond me) is what I see at the grocery store checkout line.

 

As for conventions, if there's a good reason then name the reason. Don't hold up "convention". If someone in power is right, then fine. But they aren't right because they're in power.

 

Please cite a reputable source for Pitt and Jolie's bad behavior, their unstable lifestyle. I'm happy to read it if there is child abuse involved.

 

I seriously, seriously doubt you can. And by "reputable" I mean let's have a paper with a Pulitzer Prize. Just one.

[Scarlett]

You pick up stuff on the news, like, in the New York Times, discussing unsavory personal habits of Brad Pitt? How? I read the NYT and local paper every day and the only thing I ever hear about Angelina Jolie (usually, that she's starving, well I would be too with nine kids or whatever, how that woman survives is beyond me) is what I see at the grocery store checkout line.

 

As for conventions, if there's a good reason then name the reason. Don't hold up "convention". If someone in power is right, then fine. But they aren't right because they're in power.

 

Please cite a reputable source for Pitt and Jolie's bad behavior, their unstable lifestyle. I'm happy to read it if there is child abuse involved.

 

I seriously, seriously doubt you can. And by "reputable" I mean let's have a paper with a Pulitzer Prize. Just one.

I am puzzled by the passion with which you defend them. You sound angry.

 

I never said they were child abusers. I said they are weird and out there and like the limelight. And that I wouldn't hold them up as role models for anything. I have that impression of them from years of them being in the spotlight and various things I have read about them. That is my impression and my opinion. You can have yours as well of course.

[Jenny in Florida]

 And that I wouldn't hold them up as role models for anything. 

 

Angelina Jolie served as a goodwill ambassador for the United Nations High Commission for Refugees for about a decade and made what is apparently the largest donation to the organization ever given by a private individual.

 

She has built 10 or 12 schools in Cambodia and several in other parts of the world.

 

She turned the property on which her home sits into a wildlife preserve.

 

She funds two centers for children affected by HIV/AIDS.

 

The list goes on, and we haven't even started talking about Brad Pitt. Honestly, just reading about how much Angelina Jolie has done makes me feel like a waste of space. I'd be pretty curious to hear what you do consider worthy of role model status?

[Joanne]

I am puzzled by the passion with which you defend them. You sound angry.

 

I never said they were child abusers. I said they are weird and out there and like the limelight. And that I wouldn't hold them up as role models for anything. I have that impression of them from years of them being in the spotlight and various things I have read about them. That is my impression and my opinion. You can have yours as well of course.

 

 

The Duggars, who agree to a reality show on their lives, "like the limelight."

 

Angelina and Brad are actors - celebrities. Beautiful and respected ones. As such, our entertainment media create the limelight. Brad and Angelina accept that by continuing to act as their career. But I think you may have the etiology incorrect. They don't seek the limelight, the limelight seeks them.

 

Brad and Angelina accept the related media focus, and are the types that current US entertainment culture adores. That reality is worth exploring, but is a whole other topic.

 

[Scarlett]

Angelina Jolie served as a goodwill ambassador for the United Nations High Commission for Refugees for about a decade and made what is apparently the largest donation to the organization ever given by a private individual.

 

She has built 10 or 12 schools in Cambodia and several in other parts of the world.

 

She turned the property on which her home sits into a wildlife preserve.

 

She funds two centers for children affected by HIV/AIDS.

 

The list goes on, and we haven't even started talking about Brad Pitt. Honestly, just reading about how much Angelina Jolie has done makes me feel like a waste of space. I'd be pretty curious to hear what you do consider worthy of role model status?

Those are great things of course, but I wasn't thinking of what her money can buy. The things I value are not valued at all by many on these boards so we will just have to leave it at that. I don't have a good opinion of either of them and I am not a bit surprised one of their kids has such a situation going on. But I will admit I give very little real thought to either of them so I may have them all wrong. As I have said repeatedly in this thread I have an impression of them based upon their many years in the public eye.

[Joanne]

Those are great things of course, but I wasn't thinking of what her money can buy. The things I value are not valued at all by many on these boards so we will just have to leave it at that. I don't have a good opinion of either of them and I am not a bit surprised one of their kids has such a situation going on. But I will admit I give very little real thought to either of them so I may have them all wrong. As I have said repeatedly in this thread I have an impression of them based upon their many years in the public eye.

 

This is not only passive/aggressive, it is an insult.

 

What *I* see and experience on this board are some of the most principled, intelligent, researched, passionate, and committed people I have had the honor to meet.

 

I can't imagine a list of virtues and role model behavior that was not present in abundance in the people who post here.

[Jenny in Florida]

The Duggars, who agree to a reality show on their lives, "like the limelight."

 

Angelina and Brad are actors - celebrities. Beautiful and respected ones. As such, our entertainment media create the limelight. Brad and Angelina accept that by continuing to act as their career. But I think you may have the etiology incorrect. They don't seek the limelight, the limelight seeks them.

 

Brad and Angelina accept the related media focus, and are the types that current US entertainment culture adores. That reality is worth exploring, but is a whole other topic.

 

While I was looking up specific examples to put in my previous post, I stumbled across the fact that Angelina Jolie apparently does not even employ a publicist (very unusual in her profession). 

 

It's also worth noting that she and Brad Pitt actually left the country both times she gave birth in an attempt to avoid some of the anticipated media circus here in the U.S. 

 

I don't read tabloids or gossip magazines or really "follow" any celebrities. And I can't remember the last film I saw that had either Angelina Jolie or Brad Pitt in it, but from the tidbits I pick up skimming Google news and listening to the radio, they seem like good, caring parents and like good people who are doing their best to do good work and leave the world a better place than they found it. I can't imagine why anyone would have a negative opinion about that.

[Scarlett]

This is not only passive/aggressive, it is an insult.

 

What *I* see and experience on this board are some of the most principled, intelligent, researched, passionate, and committed people I have had the honor to meet.

 

I can't imagine a list of virtues and role model behavior that was not present in abundance in the people who post here.

Insulting to whom? Those who don't have the same values I have aren't insulted by me saying that. They welcome the distance I imagine.

 

I share opinions/values/standards with many on this board but the ones who feel differently are very vocal.

[Dory]

Would people please stop likening being transgendered to fantasizing that one is a fairy or animal? It is ridiculously insulting to people like my brother.

 

The fact that you were apparently until recently uninformed about the distinction between gender identity and biological sex doesn't make it either trendy or impossible that they have long been distinct ideas. If they were one and the same why would we have two different words at all?

 

I assure you that there have been transgendered people long before it was considered (by you) to be trendy. I also assure you that my brother wasn't making a trendy choice when he sought needed treatment which has allowed him to live a healthy, happy life.

 

When talking about an 8yo, I agree, it is insulting to compare the two.

To a 3yo, in some instances, it is the same thing though. Some 3yo's will fantasize being the opposite gender the same way they will with being an animal. It's a game of sorts. But they are different things and a wise parent should be able to see the distinction. .

[Jenny in Florida]

Those are great things of course, but I wasn't thinking of what her money can buy. The things I value are not valued at all by many on these boards so we will just have to leave it at that. I don't have a good opinion of either of them and I am not a bit surprised one of their kids has such a situation going on. But I will admit I give very little real thought to either of them so I may have them all wrong. As I have said repeatedly in this thread I have an impression of them based upon their many years in the public eye.

 

It isn't just money. Angelina Jolie did field missions to more than 30 countries and currently represents the UNHCR at the diplomatic level. (She apparently funded all of her travels and lived in the same kinds of accommodations and circumstances as other UN workers.) 

 

She does quite a bit of work on behalf of children and women in war zones, including working on a campaign against sexual violence in military conflict zones. 

 

I find it really tough to understand how anyone with a heart can "not value" those things. So, yes, I guess we'll have to simply agree to disagree. 

 

Edited to add: I also think it's worth noting that most or all of the "out there" things people love to talk about when they discuss Angelina Jolie took place 15 or more years ago, when she was in her early to mid-20s. Personally, I would hope that the public, if they were paying attention to me at all, would be willing to look past some silly choices I made when I was that age and gauge my value by the whole of my life. So, I try to extend the same grace to others.

[LucyStoner]

When talking about an 8yo, I agree, it is insulting to compare the two.

To a 3yo, in some instances, it is the same thing though. Some 3yo's will fantasize being the opposite gender the same way they will with being an animal. It's a game of sorts. But they are different things and a wise parent should be able to see the distinction. .

The post I was replying to was not discussing a child, age 3 or age 8 or age anything but directly challenging the existence of transgendered people in general and denigrating it as a recent trend.

 

I know full well that kids pretend a lot of things. The poster I was responding to however has made it clear that she somehow feels qualified to say that all transgendered people are merely pretending to be something they are not. That is an incredibly unkind claim to make.

[texasmama]

You know, one does not need to wholeheartedly support every one of a celebrity's interests or causes to value their contributions to the world.

 

My take on this particular celebrity couple is that they had some wild early years and then settled down as they got a bit older.  They seem well-matched, and they seem to place the well-being of their children very high on their list of priorities.  They are not what is wrong with the world.  I don't think the Duggars are what is wrong with the world, either, though.

 

I don't wholeheartedly support anyone's agenda but my own  (:D), and I can usually find commonalities with most people (common folks or celebrities).  None of us (common folks or celebrities) have to agree on all points in order to value the contributions we all make.

 

Scarlett, I know that you and I have some commonalities.  Joanne and I have other commonalities.  I have some commonalities with the Duggars and Brad and Angie.  Rock on with the commonalities.  And good on the folks with money and celebrity for doing absolutely anything positive with it.  We need them.  I don't have millions to give.  No one listens when I speak.  Down with the Kardashians.  Now there are some folks I can't imagine having any common values with... 

[Runningmom80]

I think it is incredibly disrespectful that some people seem to be referring to Shiloh Pitt as a "he" when her own mother speaks of her as a girl.

 

I also dislike it that this poor child is being turned into some sort of poster child for being transgendered, when neither she nor her parents have ever identified her as being transgendered.

 

Wearing boys' clothing and having short hair does not automatically indicate that Shiloh has gender identity issues.

 

This is a very good point.  Maybe one day people will be allowed to wear what they want without fear of judgement and gender stereotypes.

[poppy]

Those are great things of course, but I wasn't thinking of what her money can buy. The things I value are not valued at all by many on these boards so we will just have to leave it at that. I don't have a good opinion of either of them and I am not a bit surprised one of their kids has such a situation going on. But I will admit I give very little real thought to either of them so I may have them all wrong. As I have said repeatedly in this thread I have an impression of them based upon their many years in the public eye.

 

Sounds like you would disapprove of her parenting and children no matter what they did, so, kind of pointless to discuss.

[Mergath]

Those are great things of course, but I wasn't thinking of what her money can buy. The things I value are not valued at all by many on these boards so we will just have to leave it at that. I don't have a good opinion of either of them and I am not a bit surprised one of their kids has such a situation going on. But I will admit I give very little real thought to either of them so I may have them all wrong. As I have said repeatedly in this thread I have an impression of them based upon their many years in the public eye.

 

I've never seen anyone happy to admit they don't value generosity, hard work, empathy, and compassion before.  But as anyone who has ever read an interview with Jolie knows, those are all things she values highly.  Jesus was pretty fond of those things, too.  (Though silly non-Christian that I am, I suppose I'm not allowed to say that.)  I can't imagine what you value instead if you have such a distaste for those things.

 

If you have such a poor opinion of her despite all the work she's done to save lives and make the world a better place, your efforts must have far surpassed hers.  Perhaps you'd like to tell us about them?

[Χά�ων]

I've never seen anyone happy to admit they don't value generosity, hard work, empathy, and compassion before.  But as anyone who has ever read an interview with Jolie knows, those are all things she values highly.  Jesus was pretty fond of those things, too.  (Though silly non-Christian that I am, I suppose I'm not allowed to say that.)  I can't imagine what you value instead if you have such a distaste for those things.

 

If you have such a poor opinion of her despite all the work she's done to save lives and make the world a better place, your efforts must have far surpassed hers.  Perhaps you'd like to tell us about them?

 

You can say it, but being a non Christian just means that you do not really understand and only a True Christian will understand what was really meant  and it was not what you said because as a non-Christian, you have no understanding and therefore Jesus did NOT value those things.

 

[texasmama]

You can say it, but being a non Christian just means that you do not really understand and only a True Christian will understand what was really meant and it was not what you said because as a non-Christian, you have no understanding and therefore Jesus did NOT value those things.

 

Sweeping generalization. Not helpful to the dialog.

[LibraryLover]

I am trying to be sensitive in word usage and thought. I mean no disrespect whatsoever towards this mother and child. I acquiesce to Mom. I only know what I've read here. I didn't know what Mom had said.

[Scarlett]

I've never seen anyone happy to admit they don't value generosity, hard work, empathy, and compassion before. But as anyone who has ever read an interview with Jolie knows, those are all things she values highly. Jesus was pretty fond of those things, too. (Though silly non-Christian that I am, I suppose I'm not allowed to say that.) I can't imagine what you value instead if you have such a distaste for those things.

 

If you have such a poor opinion of her despite all the work she's done to save lives and make the world a better place, your efforts must have far surpassed hers. Perhaps you'd like to tell us about them?

.??? Please do not put words in my mouth. I never said I don't value generosity etc.

 

Not sure why you feel so entitled to attack me because I have a negative opinion of Brangelina. You can have your opinion and I can have mine.

[Scarlett]

Sounds like you would disapprove of her parenting and children no matter what they did, so, kind of pointless to discuss.

That is quite a leap to say I disapprove of her children. When I think of Angelina and Brad it is more of an eye roll than disapproval. I don't have even that much of an opinion of their children.

[Χά�ων]

Sweeping generalization. Not helpful to the dialog.

 

Actually, it is relevant to what Mergath said. So often on this very forum, myself and others who are open about being non christians say something to add to a topic that is from the bible only to be blasted and told that as non christian we could not possibly understand what, even if it is a direct quote from the bible. Honestly, it gets tiresome to attempt to add to a discussion only to be told that non christians cannot possibly understand anything from the bible because we lack the holy spirit to guide us.

 

I stand by my comment because it is based on multiple threads and multiple different posters chiming in to say over and over again that non Christians cannot understand the bible.

 

Is Mergath correct or is she unable to known anything that Jesus valued because she is a non Christian who does not understand?

 

Or is it more likely that non christians have an understanding of the bible and when they direct quote from the bible to support their POV and this happens to show that a christian is posting ideas and beliefs that are contrary to jesus own words that maybe, just maybe, the non christians actually are aware of what the bible and jesus says? Sincere question and one I would like addressed because it cannot be both ways all the time.

 

I for one am tired of the "no matter what a non christians says it is wrong" attitude and my post was a tongue in cheek comment that is very much relevant to the overall Us Vs Non Christians Who ack the Holy Spirit and are always wrong and The Christians can be as judgy as we want because they are non Christians and do not matter attitude of many posters. It does get tiresome.

 

ETA: This came out snarkier than I intended. Not sure how to fix that and still make my point. Please know I am not intending this as a personal attack. But am serious in wanting to know.