Please help me to avoid flipping out!

[kristi26]

I didn't read all of the other responses, but there is no way I would be okay with what she did either.  I'd call her immediately and ask her what she was thinking.  I would then tell her that she would no longer be driving my daughter anywhere.  That is absolutely unacceptable (and illegal here in my state as far as I know). So sorry you are having to deal with this!

[Anne]

It doesn't really matter whether or not your dd wanted to ride in the back - the adult in the car should not have permitted it!

 

Anne

[Love]

 .  

 

 

Edited November 19, 2015 by Love

[FaithManor]

I'd take it up with my dd to see if she was telling a half-truth about the situation. BUT, in the end, it was the adult's responsibility to not put that car in reverse without every child properly restrained. THE-END. She is not a responsible person, period.

 

Offering a child the option of going without just simply should not be in the equation.

 

So,  you'll have to explore this with your dd just so you can straighten her out on safety protocols and expectations IF this is indeed how it went down. But, under no circumstances should this woman be driving children around. What a dunce thing to do!

 

That she still doesn't seem to get that it's wrong to have ANY child, even her own, in the cargo area is a gobsmacker actually.

[zimom]

We had something very similar happen with DD1 and a church we attended for a little while.   Her Sunday school teacher was taking the class for pizza after church.   We drove around the parking lot to find the teacher putting our daughter and another child or two into the cargo area.  We were furious but tried to remain calm as we knew it would upset our daughter if we caused a scene.  Obviously we removed her from the situation and drove her to the pizza place ourself.

 

We wasted no time after lunch contacting the minister and letting him know about the incident and that at a minimum our daughter would not be allowed unsupervised with this teacher again.   We made it clear the liability the church now faced if anything happened from this point forward due to her actions.   We left the church shortly after but we certainly feel we did our part to ensure something like this did not happen again.

[StephanieZ]

I'd be pretty irritated, and I'd not be OK with it, but I wouldn't lose my mind, either.

 

We took our kids to Argentina for a 2 week holiday (family wedding) at ages 18 mos, 5, and 7. We get out of the airport to get in a van to get to the hotel in Buenos Aires, lugging our toddler car seat, etc . ..  and find that not only do the vans/cabs/etc not accommodate car seats, but none of those vehicles even HAVE seat belts for passengers. Also, the expectation is that 6-10 people will fit in a vehicle made for 5. No seat belts were possible the entire time. In any vehicle. Even when we rented our own car, there were no seat belts! I took a deep breath, and I just went with it. What choice did we have? Sit on a curb at the airport waiting for a vehicle with seat belts to magically appear? While our entire extended family and host extended family were inconvenienced (mightily)? Not an option. I figure life is full of risks, and this was a short period of time of an elevated risk, and I'd just have to risk it.

 

Sooooo, since then, on rare occasion, I've been in a spot with 8 (or 9) passengers in a 7 passenger van . . . I tell MY KIDS to "go Argentina style" and tuck down in the floorboard or double up on a seatbelt . . . I'd guesstimate we've driven 50 miles this way over the past 10 years (and rode/drove probably 500 miles that way during our 2 weeks in Argentina, including many hours of crazy city driving in cabs). So far, so good. That said, I ONLY do this with MY kids, and I've always warned the moms ahead of time ("We're going to have two kids too many for the 3 miles between the pool and your house . . . I'll be having MY KIDS ride doubled up without seat belts . . .Is that OK with you?") I've never had a mom ask me to do anything differently or change our plans . . . I'd never do it with anyone else's kid in my car. If someone is going to get hurt because of a known risk I choose to take, it should be my kid, not someone else's.

 

And, FWIW, I am generally a safety lunatic. I had every bookshelf double bolted to the walls. Meds double locked. My kids and the adults wear seat belts every mile of every 1000 mile road trip and every mile of the trip to the corner store. Helmets are worn every bike ride. I've owned at least a dozen pairs of knee guards, wrist guards, etc. Don't like the kids to have sleepovers. You name it, I worry about it, and I do try to keep them as safe as feasible from known hazards. If we hadn't gone to Argentina, I'd never have been able to go loosey goosey about seat belts for even one mile once. But I did, and somehow, after living that way for 2 weeks, it seems a bit hypocritical to go all lunatic about needing to make 2 trips (and how to do that with all the kids under 10?) to ferry kids from the pool to my house 2 miles away . . . In fact, "Argentina style" is our family shorthand for taking known risks on occasion when convenience demands it. That in no way means we take lots of risks. 

 

So, that's said to say, yes, I'd be steamed. No, I wouldn't let my kid ride in that lady's car again unless that lady made a clear commitment to never do it again. I'd also give my KID huge hell about making such a bad decision. THAT is the best way to keep your kid safe -- empowering her to do the right thing under pressure. But, I wouldn't get too high and mighty about it being super evil crazy wrong either, as it is really just a cultural construct, not some true moral issue, IMHO. 

 

 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I'd be pretty irritated, and I'd not be OK with it, but I wouldn't lose my mind, either.

 

We took our kids to Argentina for a 2 week holiday (family wedding) at ages 18 mos, 5, and 7. We get out of the airport to get in a van to get to the hotel in Buenos Aires, lugging our toddler car seat, etc . ..  and find that not only do the vans/cabs/etc not accommodate car seats, but none of those vehicles even HAVE seat belts for passengers. Also, the expectation is that 6-10 people will fit in a vehicle made for 5. No seat belts were possible the entire time. In any vehicle. Even when we rented our own car, there were no seat belts! I took a deep breath, and I just went with it. What choice did we have? Sit on a curb at the airport waiting for a vehicle with seat belts to magically appear? While our entire extended family and host extended family were inconvenienced (mightily)? Not an option. I figure life is full of risks, and this was a short period of time of an elevated risk, and I'd just have to risk it.

 

Sooooo, since then, on rare occasion, I've been in a spot with 8 (or 9) passengers in a 7 passenger van . . . I tell MY KIDS to "go Argentina style" and tuck down in the floorboard or double up on a seatbelt . . . I'd guesstimate we've driven 50 miles this way over the past 10 years (and rode/drove probably 500 miles that way during our 2 weeks in Argentina, including many hours of crazy city driving in cabs). So far, so good. That said, I ONLY do this with MY kids, and I've always warned the moms ahead of time ("We're going to have two kids too many for the 3 miles between the pool and your house . . . I'll be having MY KIDS ride doubled up without seat belts . . .Is that OK with you?") I've never had a mom ask me to do anything differently or change our plans . . . I'd never do it with anyone else's kid in my car. If someone is going to get hurt because of a known risk I choose to take, it should be my kid, not someone else's.

 

And, FWIW, I am generally a safety lunatic. I had every bookshelf double bolted to the walls. Meds double locked. My kids and the adults wear seat belts every mile of every 1000 mile road trip and every mile of the trip to the corner store. Helmets are worn every bike ride. I've owned at least a dozen pairs of knee guards, wrist guards, etc. Don't like the kids to have sleepovers. You name it, I worry about it, and I do try to keep them as safe as feasible from known hazards. If we hadn't gone to Argentina, I'd never have been able to go loosey goosey about seat belts for even one mile once. But I did, and somehow, after living that way for 2 weeks, it seems a bit hypocritical to go all lunatic about needing to make 2 trips (and how to do that with all the kids under 10?) to ferry kids from the pool to my house 2 miles away . . . In fact, "Argentina style" is our family shorthand for taking known risks on occasion when convenience demands it. That in no way means we take lots of risks. 

 

So, that's said to say, yes, I'd be steamed. No, I wouldn't let my kid ride in that lady's car again unless that lady made a clear commitment to never do it again. I'd also give my KID huge hell about making such a bad decision. THAT is the best way to keep your kid safe -- empowering her to do the right thing under pressure. But, I wouldn't get too high and mighty about it being super evil crazy wrong either, as it is really just a cultural construct, not some true moral issue, IMHO. 

 

I don't get it.

[sassenach]

I don't get it.

I kind of get it, in the sense that if you want to double your kids up in a belt, and leave mine safely single belted, that's your risk to take.  However, if a person leaves a child unbelted, that's basically inserting a 50 pound projectile into the car and risking everyone's safety, and I'm not ok with that. 

[StephanieZ]

I don't get it.

 

Really? You think if I have 7 seats, and 8 kids, that I should put someone else's kid in the unsafe seat?

[Seasider]

I kind of get it, in the sense that if you want to double your kids up in a belt, and leave mine safely single belted, that's your risk to take. However, if a person leaves a child unbelted, that's basically inserting a 50 pound projectile into the car and risking everyone's safety, and I'm not ok with that.

Right - it doesn't put only that child at risk, it puts everyone in the vehicle at risk.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Really? You think if I have 7 seats, and 8 kids, that I should put someone else's kid in the unsafe seat?

 

No. I meant I don't think you should put your own kid at risk, either. I don't think your own kid is worth less than somebody else's kid.

[SKL]

In my state, the law only requires seat belts in the front seat.  (And child seats for kids under 8.)

[KungFuPanda]

No. I meant I don't think you should put your own kid at risk, either. I don't think your own kid is worth less than somebody else's kid.

It's less liability. You won't sue yourself.

[SKL]

I agree with Stephanie.  I too have made the decision to have one or more passenger ride without a seat belt in unusual transportation situations.  I do believe that in the OP's situation, the driver had no business allowing someone else's kid to ride that way without her parent's approval.  It seems the original intent was to only have her own kid ride in the back.  I could understand doing this if there was a last minute change of plans and the driver didn't want to disappoint everyone in the car pool.  Obviously her plan backfired.  She should have told the kid that she must either sit in the seat belt or get her mother's approval to sit in the back.

 

I'm not sure exactly what it means to sit in the "trunk" of that particular vehicle.  Was there something to sit on?  I assume there was air and all that ....

[Cakes]

So great to hear everyone's responses!

 

Yes, DD and I did have a good talk about it. She said that at first she said 'Yeah I will sit in the back!" then quickly realized that she had gotten herself into a bad situation and tried to backpedal but it was too late, that is when she was pressured...because she said she would :confused1: . I explained how dangerous it was to ride in the back and how  if they had been hit from behind she would likely be in the hospital or even dead!

 

The mom does have very poor judgement and there are a few other things that have happened in the last several months but nothing this severe.

 

The carpool for rehearsals is disbanded now. 

 

We still have two classes per week to sort out but I am pretty sure there is about to be a change because the other mother that shares the driving is also not comfortable with this mom driving her DD.
 

I appreciate the input and stories from everyone!

 

[StephanieZ]

No. I meant I don't think you should put your own kid at risk, either. I don't think your own kid is worth less than somebody else's kid.

 

What kind of car do you drive? What year? Do you not think there are safer cars available? Do they only eat organics 100% of the time? Do they always get 9 hrs of sleep every night? Does your community have the cleanest water and air available in the world? What kind of carpeting and furniture do they use? Are you sure no carpet or pressboard or treated wood or paints are off gassing? If you were in my shoes in Argentina, would you have waited in the airport to get back on a flight to the USA where seat belts were available? Do you let your kids out of your sight ever? Do you wake hourly all night to check on them? Do you run paid formal background checks on every teacher, coach, friend's parent, friend's mother's boyfriends? Friend's siblings? 

 

The world is full of risks. Getting overly worked up over just a few is the short cut to hypocrisy. I choose to do the best I can and to take calculated risks, because I acknowledge that life is risk. There is no avoiding it. Period. That said, I do what is in my power to limit risks to everyone, and when I am knowingly taking avoidable risks, I point them towards myself (i.e., my kids if it is a kid risk), not towards others (i.e., someone else's kid). 

[Storygirl]

In my state, the law only requires seat belts in the front seat.  (And child seats for kids under 8.)

 

I'm pretty sure we live in the same state. All children through age 15 are required by law to be buckled in the car.

[SKL]

I'm pretty sure we live in the same state. All children through age 15 are required by law to be buckled in the car.

 

Not according to the websites I checked today.

 

ETA:  I double checked and you are right - it was in a different place.  (Not sure when they added that part into the law.)  Taxis are exempt. I always find that interesting, but very convenient too.  :)  It is not the case in all states.

 

[SKL]

One of the first things I notice on my trips to India is how many people ride on one scooter.  Whole families, as many as 6 people from the parents to the babes-in-arms.  Not a one of them wearing a helmet.

 

I've traveled to many places with my kids where it is impossible to follow the safety standards we consider requirements here at home.

 

Then again in some parts of Europe, we could not ride in most of the taxis because they had to have a separate seat for each passenger, and the cabbies were way too scared to run afoul of that rule.  Having to wait in the rain for a half hour rather than let two skinny kids share a seat (for a couple mile slow ride) was a drag, I'll say.

[emzhengjiu]

Wow, I had no idea some states only require seat belt use for the front seats.  In my family, the car doesn't start until every one is buckled properly.  My daughters, now teens, have called me in the past to get them because some adult wanted them to ride in the back without seat belts.  There's no way I would allow my girls to ride in a vehicle unbuckled.

[Ausmumof3]

Haven't read all replies, but truthfully I wouldn't even bother to be overly nice about it. No kid should ride without a seatbelt. I think other parents need to know that it's going on as well.

 

A cousin of ours was thrown from the car and killed due to lack of a seatbelt for him.... I just wouldn't risk it ever.

[73349]

I don't think it's quite apt to compare riding unbelted in a country where there are no seatbelts available to riding unbelted where it is illegal and there is an alternative at hand (i.e., have mom drive her own child). Wherever it is law or custom to ride with seatbelts, then the driver has a duty to see that kids are buckled up when driving in that location, or at the least, to speak with a parent about the problem.

 

OP, I'm glad you got your DD out of that carpool. A driver who thinks it's okay to seat kids in the cargo area may, for all you know, also be texting, running lights, or otherwise exhibiting a cavalier attitude.

[IdahoHomeschooler]

Yeah, this is a good time to flip out! I'm not sure what I would say in your position, but it would definitely include the phrase "Are you f---ing kidding me?!?!?!" There is no need to be diplomatic or spare feelings. Call this woman out! She should not be allowed to drive in a carpool! I would be beyond pissed if somebody knew this is how she treats the safety of children, and didn't tell me. If my child got hurt and you knew it could happen, my response to you would also include the phrase "Are you f---ing kidding me?!?!?!"

[Storygirl]

I don't think it's quite apt to compare riding unbelted in a country where there are no seatbelts available to riding unbelted where it is illegal and there is an alternative at hand (i.e., have mom drive her own child). Wherever it is law or custom to ride with seatbelts, then the driver has a duty to see that kids are buckled up when driving in that location, or at the least, to speak with a parent about the problem.

 

 

 

I agree with you. When we adopted our children (two different countries), there were no infant seats in the cars, so we held them on our laps out of necessity. I would never dream of doing that here, even though I had to while we were there.

[Slartibartfast]

I would have LOST MY MIND.

 

No way would this person ever drive my kid again. I am glad this is all worked out. I would have been very upset.

[zimom]

One of the first things I notice on my trips to India is how many people ride on one scooter. Whole families, as many as 6 people from the parents to the babes-in-arms. Not a one of them wearing a helmet.

 

 

Similar in China except that occasionally the father only would have a helmet. I guess his wife and kids were expendable.

[Storygirl]

The entire-family-on-the-motor-scooter thing happens in Vietnam as well. Sometimes with the addition of a live pig or a crate of ducks.

[Berta]

She said " I suggested that she ride in the open belt but she wanted to ride in the back with my DD"

 

I ended with " Ok, I will speak to her about the inappropriateness of riding without a seatbelt."

 

Done.

 

Yikes! She suggested? I'm sorry, my car doesn't MOVE unless everyone is belted in, adults and children.

[LaxMom]

One of the first things I notice on my trips to India is how many people ride on one scooter. Whole families, as many as 6 people from the parents to the babes-in-arms. Not a one of them wearing a helmet.

 

I've traveled to many places with my kids where it is impossible to follow the safety standards we consider requirements here at home.

 

Then again in some parts of Europe, we could not ride in most of the taxis because they had to have a separate seat for each passenger, and the cabbies were way too scared to run afoul of that rule. Having to wait in the rain for a half hour rather than let two skinny kids share a seat (for a couple mile slow ride) was a drag, I'll say.

Not shockingly, such countries have a higher traffic fatality rate than we do. We also don't bathe in or procure drinking water from rivers with raw sewage dumped into them, and would be appalled if a parent down the block thought that was ok, too.

[Rebel Yell]

One of the first things I notice on my trips to India is how many people ride on one scooter.  Whole families, as many as 6 people from the parents to the babes-in-arms.  Not a one of them wearing a helmet.

 

I've traveled to many places with my kids where it is impossible to follow the safety standards we consider requirements here at home.

 

Then again in some parts of Europe, we could not ride in most of the taxis because they had to have a separate seat for each passenger, and the cabbies were way too scared to run afoul of that rule.  Having to wait in the rain for a half hour rather than let two skinny kids share a seat (for a couple mile slow ride) was a drag, I'll say.

 

OK, but that doesn't change the law or safety standards here. :confused1: 

 

I once got into a huge fight with a dear friend because her child refused to wear a seatbelt- age 8ish. My state law requires seatbelts for anyone under age 18, no matter where they are in the vehicle, with additional rules for boosters/etc. While I had genuine compassion for the child's issues and distress at the thought of a restrictive seatbelt, *I* was not willing to take the risk- emotionally or financially/insurance-wise if there was an accident. You want me to drive?  Follow the laws. You want to do what you sincerely believe to be best for your child that happens to break several traffic laws? You drive yours, I'll drive mine.

[readwithem]

A year ago a girl was killed on dd's college campus, there were 11 in a SUV and she was ejected (no seatbelt). She was six months from graduating. 

 

OP, you have every right to be livid about the original situation, regardless of how your dd ended up in the car without a seatbelt.

[TranquilMind]

A mom friend of mine ( Mom A) coordinated carpool for Nutcracker rehearsals several weeks back. Yesterday was the first day.

 

Mom B was to pick up all of the kids to take to rehearsals and another mom was to pick up and deliver the kids to their homes.

 

Mom B pulls up to pick up my kid and another child (who was specifically named as being a part of the carpool, although he is new to the group). 

Apparently after I closed my front door, as my child walked out to the car, the mom told her that there was not enough room in the car and that she and Mom B's DD had to sit in the trunk of the Ford Explorer. Mom B was laughing and making light of it. My DD balked at this but the mother insisted and got more serious to the point of saying " I am telling you, you ARE going to sit in there!"

 

She drove my child (12) like that for 30 mins in bumper to bumper traffic. I am beyond livid!!

 

I need advice as to how to proceed. This mom will be driving one more time, although that is not a problem as I can easily drive my own kid and the extra boy. One problem is that we have an existing carpool with this mom twice a week. There are three of us and we rotate. There are many other times that we will need to carpool together.

 

Should I address how inappropriate this is with her over the phone? Email? A simple text, keeping it light hearted?

 

I don't really want to burn bridges but I don't really want to carpool with her anymore. Actually I never wanted to carpool with her but it is nice to share the driving and be able to help each other out, we are all busy. This is a woman whom I have always kept at an arms distance. She is gossipy and always is digging for information, even gossips about the other dancers to the girls she is driving.

 

By the way, there was a seatbelt open. But she made my DD ride in the back with her DD.

 

PS I did tell my daughter that if she was ever put in that position again to simply not get in the car. She should have come back up to the door and told me. I said that I don't care where she is I will always come and get her if she is being put into a dangerous situation.

Oh, hell no.  She drove your kid in the TRUNK??    That is not safe, and not legal in this state.  Check your laws.  If it is illegal, tell her that she cannot violate the law and endanger the kids in the carpool - in a polite way.  Or take your kid yourself, before she kills someone. 

 

Yes, you are right to tell your kid to just not get in the car. 

[TranquilMind]

Yeah, this is a good time to flip out! I'm not sure what I would say in your position, but it would definitely include the phrase "Are you f---ing kidding me?!?!?!" There is no need to be diplomatic or spare feelings. Call this woman out! She should not be allowed to drive in a carpool! I would be beyond pissed if somebody knew this is how she treats the safety of children, and didn't tell me. If my child got hurt and you knew it could happen, my response to you would also include the phrase "Are you f---ing kidding me?!?!?!"

I disagree that the best way is to curse at her to express your legitimate anger.   Most people simply shut down when you start into that and will not actually hear you.  It is not an effective way to meet your goal. 

 

My response would be decidedly in the nature of, "The LAW of the state of (wherever) states specifically that seatbelts are required on every person in the vehicle.  At no time, do you have authority to break the law while transporting the kids......"

[TranquilMind]

So great to hear everyone's responses!

 

Yes, DD and I did have a good talk about it. She said that at first she said 'Yeah I will sit in the back!" then quickly realized that she had gotten herself into a bad situation and tried to backpedal but it was too late, that is when she was pressured...because she said she would :confused1: . I explained how dangerous it was to ride in the back and how  if they had been hit from behind she would likely be in the hospital or even dead!

 

The mom does have very poor judgement and there are a few other things that have happened in the last several months but nothing this severe.

 

The carpool for rehearsals is disbanded now. 

 

We still have two classes per week to sort out but I am pretty sure there is about to be a change because the other mother that shares the driving is also not comfortable with this mom driving her DD.

 

I appreciate the input and stories from everyone!

That's good to hear that the carpool is disbanded. 

 

This mom really does need to hear that this is a problem though, if she did not realize other parents would find it objectionable.