Ferguson

[umsami]

I could not find any dictionary that indicated demon to be a racist term. Since when? and where do I find that? Who knew when I was calling my decidedly white children demon spawn-I was making racially intolerant comments... good grief

 

 

Yeah, I should tell my brown-skinned friend to sue the traffic court judge who called her a "speed demon."

 

She was rather proud of the label.

 

When I was a teen, the next door neighbor lady told her kid our house was full of demons, because my mom used to cuss loudly when frustrated.  :p  We are not brown, but the next door neighbor must not have noticed that.

 

Wow...do you even know how bad you both sound?  So, somebody tells you that a term is racist....and you joke about it?  Since, of course, you've never heard of it, it can't be true?  It's really really sad.  DH is Arab. He'd never heard the term rag h**d before coming to this country.  Does that mean it's not racist?  No, of course not.

 

Here's an interview that talks about it..... and yes, the person speaking is a black law professor... so maybe she's just pretending or something. (rolling eyes)  It's around 3:41 and she calls it implicit racism....unconscious biases....etc.

 

http://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/watch/how-wilson-could-have-de-escalated-the-conflict-363932227732

[poppy]

I have read along most of this thread.

 

I know racism is alive and well. I know it permeates every nook and cranny of our lives whether we admit it or not.

 

Each of us has an obligation to be in control of ourselves regardless of the circumstances we were born into. And it is all relative. I was once a pretty young white girl from an all white county. Oh the stories I could tell.....now I am a middle age white woman living in a more diversified world but I travel in circles where I never think of racism. Until I read these threads.

 

And yet.....I just can't see how so many excuse/justify/ Browns actions that night and hold the policeman to such a high standard. If my son had robbed a store and then mouthed a policeman and grabbed his gun and then ran from the policeman...I really really can't imagine myself yelling racism and police brutality to the world. If my son had been shot and killed in that situation I know I would be DEVASTATED but I hope my common sense and sense of justice would prevail.

 

I don't know. It is just so sad all around to me.

 

Think of it this way.  After Michael Brown was shot, his body left in the street for four hours, middle of the street, broad daylight, uncovered. Witnesses at the time were saying the body was of an unarmed young man attempting to surrender when he was shot multiple times in the face.  The prosecutor declined to investigate. I can easily imagine myself being outraged given those circumstances, if it was my son.  And when the police responded to nonviolent demonstrations with riot gear and tear gas..... yes, I can  see myself yelling racism and police brutality to the world. 

[weaver_67579]

He said something out of anger, something I doubt he actually meant, given that the Brown family has stayed far, far away from the violence since this started. So no, I don't blame him. I can't even imagine what the family has gone through, what kind of emotions they've experienced. No parent should have to deal with that, so he gets a pass for a momentary indiscretion in my book. It's not like he was out there torching cars and buildings.

 

Have you never said something you regret in a less-than-proud moment? I have. I'm just glad the world media wasn't listening when it happened.

 

I do believe the mother and especially the father have behaved in a very dignified manner despite the circumstances.

 

Of course I have said things I regret. However, what he said is akin to yelling fire in a crowded theater. I know families who have also lost loved ones to very tragic circumstances and not one of them would have said anything like that.

 

[SKL]

The language used by the killers of Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown was very similar.

This is why the 'demon' language feel racial in nature- armed adults perceiving these two young men as aggressive and almost superhuman. 

 

I love the way your linked article shows TM's 13yo little boy photo, calls MB a "gentle giant," a caring guy and so on, giving quite a bit of spin in the opposite direction.  If it weren't for that leaked video of the robbery, people would probably believe that stuff.

 

I just can't imagine why anyone would think Mr. Brown was big or aggressive.  I mean the cop obviously pulled that out of his butt.

[mommymilkies]

Wow...do you even know how bad you both sound?  So, somebody tells you that a term is racist....and you joke about it?  Since, of course, you've never heard of it, it can't be true?  It's really really sad.  DH is Arab. He'd never heard the term rag h**d before coming to this country.  Does that mean it's not racist?  No, of course not.

 

Here's an interview that talks about it..... and yes, the person speaking is a black law professor... so maybe she's just pretending or something. (rolling eyes)  It's around 3:41 and she calls it implicit racism....unconscious biases....etc.

 

http://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/watch/how-wilson-could-have-de-escalated-the-conflict-363932227732

:iagree: I'm out of likes :/

[Scarlett]

Think of it this way. After Michael Brown was shot, his body left in the street for four hours, middle of the street, broad daylight, uncovered. Witnesses at the time were saying the body was of an unarmed young man attempting to surrender when he was shot multiple times in the face. The prosecutor declined to investigate. I can easily imagine myself being outraged given those circumstances, if it was my son. And when the police responded to nonviolent demonstrations with riot gear and tear gas..... yes, I can see myself yelling racism and police brutality to the world.

My son's body being left in the street for hours? Heartbreaking. Truly I can feel the pain of that mother. Yet I need facts. And the policeman who shot him had nothing to do with how long the body stayed in the street.

[CaffeineDiary]

edited while looking for delete button.  Not going to respond to this sort of crypto-whatever.

 

 

[SKL]

edited while looking for delete button.  Not going to respond to this sort of crypto-whatever.

 

hmm, I see you edited just as I was about to say gimme a break.

[poppy]

I love the way your linked article shows TM's 13yo little boy photo, calls MB a "gentle giant," a caring guy and so on, giving quite a bit of spin in the opposite direction.  If it weren't for that leaked video of the robbery, people would probably believe that stuff.

 

I just can't imagine why anyone would think Mr. Brown was big or aggressive.  I mean the cop obviously pulled that out of his butt.

 

Another photo of Michael Brown...

 http://abcnews.go.com/US/michael-brown-survived-shots-shot-killed/story?id=25017247

 

Yes, the article quoted his uncle who referred to Michael Brown as a "gentle giant". It's not a term the media made up for "spin". It was said by someone who watched him grow up.  Scoff if you wish, in the end, someone's nephew is dead and buried far too young. 

 

By the way, that was not a leaked video. That was formally released by the Ferguson police department very, very early in the investigation.   And shame on them for that. 

[poppy]

My son's body being left in the street for hours? Heartbreaking. Truly I can feel the pain of that mother. Yet I need facts. And the policeman who shot him had nothing to do with how long the body stayed in the street.

 

 

The police not covering the body having nothing to do with police? I'm not sure I understand that.

I don't think the point is that the officer who did the shooting is a horrible man... I don't get the sense that he is, honestly.  The problem is that this is a community where the police do not treat the residents with basic dignity.  That's why this story received the attention it did.

[Miss Peregrine]

The police not covering the body having nothing to do with police? I'm not sure I understand that.

I don't think the point is that the officer who did the shooting is a horrible man... I don't get the sense that he is, honestly. The problem is that this is a community where the police do not treat the residents with basic dignity. That's why this story received the attention it did.

That's not what she said. Darren Wilson left/ or was sent from the scene pretty quickly.

[Murphy101]

My whole life I have very very commonly heard variations of soandso was/is "possessed", a demon-child, demon spawn, heathen, devilish, looked like the devil had hold of them, and more. It's nothing more than a phrase and to the best of my knowledge isn't racist. If it was, it must have been against white folk, bc that's all who I ever heard/hear it referencing to.

 

If someone, anyone, kept coming at me after I had repeatedly fired my weapon at them, I could imagine myself saying something to the effect of, "holy crap?! The guy just kept coming like a demon!!" Or some such comment.

 

I'd say it regardless of skin color bc I'm not referencing skin color. It's referencing an attitude or action or a fierce menacing expression.

 

I'm not saying it can't be racist. Anything can be. But I don't think it makes anyone sound bad to point out in a conversation that it isn't racist where they come from and that they had never heard of that before and give examples.

[weaver_67579]

Wow...do you even know how bad you both sound?  So, somebody tells you that a term is racist....and you joke about it?  Since, of course, you've never heard of it, it can't be true?  It's really really sad.  DH is Arab. He'd never heard the term rag h**d before coming to this country.  Does that mean it's not racist?  No, of course not.

 

Here's an interview that talks about it..... and yes, the person speaking is a black law professor... so maybe she's just pretending or something. (rolling eyes)  It's around 3:41 and she calls it implicit racism....unconscious biases....etc.

 

http://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/watch/how-wilson-could-have-de-escalated-the-conflict-363932227732

 

Stinking fat fingers...I just lost my whole post...

 

I do not have to take anything I hear from others as gospel, especially since I looked the word up on several dictionaries before posting and found no racially notes definitions, though I did find some using other words. I was checking to see if they would post if something had an offensive and racist connotation. It is obviously not the common vernacular for that word-where I live here on the East Coast and when I lived in the Midwest. Just because someone uses a word incorrectly, that does not indicate the word itself is racist. I for one, have been called a cracker. I did not know someone was insulting me till my nice Hispanic friend told me-lol. I am not offended by the word cracker itself. In fact, I love them in my tomato soup. The idiots that do not know that a cracker is a nice crisp flatbread are the ones that look like fools. I'm definitely not going to get all twitchy and expect to get all bent out of shape if anyone used the word in a proper context. As for the Officer Wilson using the word demon... here are some of the definitions I did find that would apply, regardless of race if you felt someone was attacking you.

 

1. an evil spirit, devil or fiend

 (some synonyms of fiend are brute, beast... and the definition is a cruel or wicked person)

 

2. an evil passion or influence

 

3. something that causes you to have a lot of trouble or unhappiness

 

I'm having trouble loading the video. I'm in the snow zone today and satellite internet has been slow...

 

[Scarlett]

The police not covering the body having nothing to do with police? I'm not sure I understand that.

I don't think the point is that the officer who did the shooting is a horrible man... I don't get the sense that he is, honestly. The problem is that this is a community where the police do not treat the residents with basic dignity. That's why this story received the attention it did.

I meant it wasn't the shooting policemans fault the body was left there so long.

[Donna A.]

You're right. "We" (whomever that is supposed to be? Brown people?) don't like people who are racist. "We" especially don't like it when people try to be coy about using inflammatory racist rhetoric.

 

Are you calling me a racist, Mrs. Mungo?  Because I believe the forensic evidence in this case, you're saying I'm a racist?  Is that true?  You've already called me "freaking rude and offensive" because you disagree with my opinions (as if you haven't been some of that yourself), but now you're calling me a racist, as well? 

[melmichigan]

My whole life I have very very commonly heard variations of soandso was/is "possessed", a demon-child, demon spawn, heathen, devilish, looked like the devil had hold of them, and more. It's nothing more than a phrase and to the best of my knowledge isn't racist. If it was, it must have been against white folk, bc that's all who I ever heard/hear it referencing to.

 

If someone, anyone, kept coming at me after I had repeatedly fired my weapon at them, I could imagine myself saying something to the effect of, "holy crap?! The guy just kept coming like a demon!!" Or some such comment.

 

I'd say it regardless of skin color bc I'm not referencing skin color. It's referencing an attitude or action or a fierce menacing expression.

 

I'm not saying it can't be racist. Anything can be. But I don't think it makes anyone sound bad to point out in a conversation that it isn't racist where they come from and that they had never heard of that before and give examples.

Malcom X and the Nation of Islam commonly referred to whites as devils or demons (now that I had to go looking for demon portrayals on the internet).

[poppy]

I meant it wasn't the shooting policemans fault the body was left there so long.

 

Right but I'm not sure why that's relevant. The police force  and the medical examiner failed to treat the body respectfully.  If the question is, why are people crying police brutality here, I think the police's handling of the aftermath of the shooting does say a lot.

 

[Murphy101]

Right but I'm not sure why that's relevant. The police force and the medical examiner failed to treat the body respectfully. If the question is, why are people crying police brutality here, I think the police's handling of the aftermath of the shooting does say a lot.

 

Actually it seems that it was the community that disrespected the body. They were so unruly and disrespectful that no one could safely remove him.

 

Here is one link explaining this problem.

 

http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/dailyrft/2014/09/funeral_director_explains_why_michael_browns_body_stayed_in_the_street_for_hours.php

[Miss Peregrine]

Right but I'm not sure why that's relevant. The police force and the medical examiner failed to treat the body respectfully. If the question is, why are people crying police brutality here, I think the police's handling of the aftermath of the shooting does say a lot.

 

Do you have a link to where they treated his body disrespectfully? Sincerely asking.

How long does an investigation of this type take?

 

I truly believe that if they moved his body right away there would be those saying the investigation wasn't thorough enough.

They can't win.

[Scarlett]

Right but I'm not sure why that's relevant. The police force and the medical examiner failed to treat the body respectfully. If the question is, why are people crying police brutality here, I think the police's handling of the aftermath of the shooting does say a lot.

 

Right. I wasn't clearly saying all I was thinking....I heard the mother saying something along the lines of the policeman leavingher son on the street. As far as why he was left there so long...I don't know...I dont assume it means the police are brutal....maybe they are backed up and /or not qualified to handling a officer involved shooting.

[poppy]

Do you have a link to where they treated his body disrespectfully? Sincerely asking.

How long does an investigation of this type take?

 

I truly believe that if they moved his body right away there would be those saying the investigation wasn't thorough enough.

They can't win.

The chief of police has basically apologized, or at least said he regrets not removing the body sooner. I can't do links from my phone, but there is a lot online about it. It is unusual for a body to be left in the street, surrounded by a crowd (including friends and family). The ferguson police were widely criticized at the time.

 

It is also worth noting that the medical examiner did not take any photos or do any measurements at the crime scene, which - again - has been widely criticized as being non standard / shoddy police work. It's not like they used the time to do really thorough investigative work.

 

 

When I say disrespected I am talking about he act of not covering the body once the determination was made that he could not be saved. That is standard when dealing with a body in public view. I am sure seeing police walk around the bloody corpse was traumatic for witnesses. I know that would be hard for me to see, in my neighborhood.

[Miss Peregrine]

The chief of police has basically apologized, or at least said he regrets not removing the body sooner. I can't do links from my phone, but there is a lot online about it. It is unusual for a body to be left in the street, surrounded by a crowd (including friends and family). The ferguson police were widely criticized at the time.

 

It is also worth noting that the medical examiner did not take any photos or do any measurements at the crime scene, which - again - has been widely criticized as being non standard / shoddy police work. It's not like they used the time to do really thorough investigative work.

 

 

When I say disrespected I am talking about he act of not covering the body once the determination was made that he could not be saved. That is standard when dealing with a body in public view. I am sure seeing police walk around the bloody corpse was traumatic for witnesses. I know that would be hard for me to see, in my neighborhood.

Thank you, Poppy.

Martha's link explains more from the funeral home director. It took two hours longer than it should have because of the crowds and gunfire.

[poppy]

Thank you, Poppy.

Martha's link explains more from the funeral home director. It took two hours longer than it should have because of the crowds and gunfire.

Perhaps that as 'covering your behind after being widely criticized in the national media'. Or perhaps it is 100% accurate. People were very angry that the bleeding body was left uncovered the sun for two hours. It was a badly handled, that is for sure.

 

But I am a little skeptical of the article since it talks about how long it took to do a thorough investigation. Simce we now know from the grand jury that the investigation done was very minimal. It was not treated as a crime scene, so much of what might have been evidence was lost.

[SKL]

Even if people can find some time or place where a word has been used as a racist term, do we know that the police officer was aware of that usage so that he could have avoided sounding "racist?"

 

The reason I am skeptical is because the people calling foul on the word "demon" are the same people who are overturning every stone trying desperately to find evidence to prove the Grand Jury wrong and to prove that the police officer was/is a turd.  So naturally they are combing through every word the guy has said in the past 6 months to see if they can find anything they can frame as racism.  The best they can come up with is "his rage-filled face reminded me of a demon."

 

For me that brings to mind the face of my ex (who is not AA) when he got really angry at me one time.  Scary, rage-filled face.  I was afraid he was going to get violent on me right then, and he isn't 6'4".  Now remember that the friend of MB separately said that MB's face (as well as the officer's face) became rage filled during the confrontation.  So I'm going to take that as the truth.

[Heidi]

If you all have the time, go over to Facebook and read this post. https://www.facebook.com/BenjaminWatsonOfficial/posts/602172116576590?fref=nf It is the only thing I have read about Ferguson that I can relate to. I think this man did an unbelievable job of summing everything up. This bickering about what you think and he thinks and she thinks happened? It only adds fuel to the problems. Benjamin Watson has some important things to say.

This is awesome. Thank you for sharing.

[TeacherZee]

Officers and military are always trained to shoot to kill.  Period. 

 

 

Cops are not trained to disable, they are trained to shoot center mass.  Testimony was given by multiple witnesses (all black btw) that Brown ran charging like a football player.  It makes total sense to me that he was shot in the head.  He was also only injured the first few shots...he could have stopped, but he did not.  Police Officers are not required to risk their safety/lives in these situations.  

 

I know I am pages and days late but I have to address this. I don't live in the US. I looked up the instructions for police officers regarding fire arms in Sweden. Our police officers are instructed to first shoot a warning shot, and then aim for the legs to disable. We had 4 deaths from police shootings in 2013 from a population of about 9 million. I wonder why US police officers have to be told to shoot to kill when other police officers in the world can be traind to shoot to injur. Shame that the US officers aren't as good of a shot as ours are.

[Slartibartfast]

This is sobering

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-ferguson-darren-wilson-testimony-20141126-story.html

 

 

When Ferguson, Missouri, police officer Darren Wilson left the scene of the shooting of unarmed teenager Michael Brown, the officer returned to the police station unescorted, washed blood off his hands and placed his recently fired pistol into an evidence bag himself.

 

"Darren Wilson had told me that he had packaged the weapon and it was currently in that evidence bag," the detective told the grand jury. "Now, at that point in time I never checked to verify that, it was done later," the detective said.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/25/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-mistakes_n_6220814.html

 

I believe I can understand why the prosecutor might have wanted to avoid seeing this go to trial. With so many forensics errors and conflicting testimonies the state's case would have been irreparably damaged.

[CaffeineDiary]

I'm not saying it can't be racist. Anything can be. But I don't think it makes anyone sound bad to point out in a conversation that it isn't racist where they come from and that they had never heard of that before and give examples.

 

I dunno, I think publicly being willing to say something like "I don't think this term is racist because I, personally, haven't heard it before or am ignorant of its history" actually does make someone sound pretty bad.

 

There's no shame in being ignorant because you don't know something.  But there is shame in, when someone presents evidence that, say, a 900 year history of bigoted use of the term exists, doubling down on your own ignorance ("Hey, man, I looked in one or two dictionaries and they didn't mention that, CHECKMATE.")

 

I wouldn't think that "Rejecting a fact because it contradicts my politics makes me look bad" would be controversial on an education-focused forum.

 

Happy thanksgiving, everyone.  It's definitely a good holiday on which to reflect upon one's privilege.

 

[Lolly]

Think of it this way.  After Michael Brown was shot, his body left in the street for four hours, middle of the street, broad daylight, uncovered. Witnesses at the time were saying the body was of an unarmed young man attempting to surrender when he was shot multiple times in the face.  The prosecutor declined to investigate. I can easily imagine myself being outraged given those circumstances, if it was my son.  And when the police responded to nonviolent demonstrations with riot gear and tear gas..... yes, I can  see myself yelling racism and police brutality to the world. 

 

 

My son's body being left in the street for hours? Heartbreaking. Truly I can feel the pain of that mother. Yet I need facts. And the policeman who shot him had nothing to do with how long the body stayed in the street.

 

 

The chief of police has basically apologized, or at least said he regrets not removing the body sooner. I can't do links from my phone, but there is a lot online about it. It is unusual for a body to be left in the street, surrounded by a crowd (including friends and family). The ferguson police were widely criticized at the time.

 

It is also worth noting that the medical examiner did not take any photos or do any measurements at the crime scene, which - again - has been widely criticized as being non standard / shoddy police work. It's not like they used the time to do really thorough investigative work.

 

 

When I say disrespected I am talking about he act of not covering the body once the determination was made that he could not be saved. That is standard when dealing with a body in public view. I am sure seeing police walk around the bloody corpse was traumatic for witnesses. I know that would be hard for me to see, in my neighborhood.

I saw a news piece on this aspect the other day. They are not allowed to cover bodies when there is going to be an investigation. It damages/messes up/contaminates evidence collection. There was no way for them to keep the body from being seen by the public in this setting.  All they could do was keep people away from the body. I do not know what the typical time involved normally is, but things in Ferguson were NOT typical after this shooting. I would think that would add to the timeline considerably. The forensic evidence in this case was going to be important. It needed to be handled with the utmost care. In my opinion, not covering a body is not being disrespectful of it. 

[Renee in NC]

This is awesome. Thank you for sharing.

 

I just read that on Facebook earlier, and I think he summed it up well.  There is a middle ground in what has become a very devisive situation.

[umsami]

Even if people can find some time or place where a word has been used as a racist term, do we know that the police officer was aware of that usage so that he could have avoided sounding "racist?"

 

His language/testimony, whether you agree or not, was viewed by many to be both de/subhumanizing and both super humanizing to blacks.  (I'd love to post an excerpt but right now my trackpad is worse than normal.)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/11/26/the-racial-bias-embedded-in-darren-wilsons-testimony/

 

I also read in another interview, which sadly I cannot find right now but I really have no reason to lie about this, that this was language was commonly used by white supremacist groups in the area.  (Who have been causing a bunch of trouble in the wake of Ferguson.) (BTW, the white supremacists are loving this.  Check out the SLPCenter's Hatewatch for more details. (I've decided not to post a link because frankly it's too disturbing.))

 

If I was posting in a thread where we were discussing the death of an 18 year old child, where the legal proceedings were questionable (tell me, are you 100% comfortable that the prosecuting attorney did not recuse himself given his history or that the grand jury proceedings were handled normally), then, out of common courtesy, I would probably not argue back and forth on whether a term was racist.  I wouldn't joke about it.  I'd simply stop using it, at least in this thread.

 

This is my last post in this thread.  I've had enough.  For those who are interested, the Non-Violent Communication folks are hosting a dialogue on the events in Ferguson this Friday.  Perhaps some of you would be interested in attending.  It's Free.  http://nvctraining.com/media/_2014/ferguson/

[poppy]

I saw a news piece on this aspect the other day. They are not allowed to cover bodies when there is going to be an investigation. It damages/messes up/contaminates evidence collection. There was no way for them to keep the body from being seen by the public in this setting. All they could do was keep people away from the body. I do not know what the typical time involved normally is, but things in Ferguson were NOT typical after this shooting. I would think that would add to the timeline considerably. The forensic evidence in this case was going to be important. It needed to be handled with the utmost care. In my opinion, not covering a body is not being disrespectful of it.

You will have to explain this to the Cheif of Police in Ferguson, or to the other police forces (like for example NYC) who publicly criticized the handling.

[poppy]

Even if people can find some time or place where a word has been used as a racist term, do we know that the police officer was aware of that usage so that he could have avoided sounding "racist?"

 

The reason I am skeptical is because the people calling foul on the word "demon" are the same people who are overturning every stone trying desperately to find evidence to prove the Grand Jury wrong and to prove that the police officer was/is a turd. So naturally they are combing through every word the guy has said in the past 6 months to see if they can find anything they can frame as racism. The best they can come up with is "his rage-filled face reminded me of a demon."

 

For me that brings to mind the face of my ex (who is not AA) when he got really angry at me one time. Scary, rage-filled face. I was afraid he was going to get violent on me right then, and he isn't 6'4". Now remember that the friend of MB separately said that MB's face (as well as the officer's face) became rage filled during the confrontation. So I'm going to take that as the truth.

Direct testimony from the shooter about his frame of mind during the shooting is not something you have to comb all that desperately for .

 

I also think every time someone mentions that Brown was 6’4â€, the fact that Wilson is 6’3†should be added. Every time .

[Pawz4me]

I saw a news piece on this aspect the other day. They are not allowed to cover bodies when there is going to be an investigation. It damages/messes up/contaminates evidence collection. There was no way for them to keep the body from being seen by the public in this setting.  All they could do was keep people away from the body. I do not know what the typical time involved normally is, but things in Ferguson were NOT typical after this shooting. I would think that would add to the timeline considerably. The forensic evidence in this case was going to be important. It needed to be handled with the utmost care. In my opinion, not covering a body is not being disrespectful of it. 

 

And yet Officer Wilson was allowed to return to the police station unescorted, where he washed the blood off his (unswabbed) hands and bagged his weapon himself.  Apparently those pieces of forensic evidence (among quite a few others) weren't deemed so important.

 

The number of procedural errors in this case were mind boggling.  And that IME is why the case should have gone to trial.

 

Link

[Murphy101]

I dunno, I think publicly being willing to say something like "I don't think this term is racist because I, personally, haven't heard it before or am ignorant of its history" actually does make someone sound pretty bad.

 

There's no shame in being ignorant because you don't know something. But there is shame in, when someone presents evidence that, say, a 900 year history of bigoted use of the term exists, doubling down on your own ignorance ("Hey, man, I looked in one or two dictionaries and they didn't mention that, CHECKMATE.")

 

I wouldn't think that "Rejecting a fact because it contradicts my politics makes me look bad" would be controversial on an education-focused forum.

Actually I didn't write any of that nonsense. There is also a multi-millenial years use of the term that is not bigoted use of the term. I wrote that my whole life it has been referenced quite differently and commonly and not at all in a bigoted manner (unless it's stretched to be against white people?) and that I'm aware of several generations of this. Other people also noted this was a common phrase to them that they never associated with ethnicity at all. The fact that you are ignorant of that and thus have been presuming everyone must be racist who uses it would cause a lot of prejudice on your part.

 

My have not discussed my politics at all in this thread, so there you go again with your presumptive prejudice.

 

Cultures diverge and clash. I once accidentally signed F- you to someone bc I didn't know that the typical hand gesture for "okay" here is the equal to flipping them off. I admit, I thought he was a bit devil possessed (as in scary and fierce looking) there for a few seconds, that seemed like minutes, running up to get in my face screaming at me about why would I hate him and would tell him to F off. I'm quite glad his friend stepped in to set him straight and clue me in. Scared the crap out of me for a bit. LOL

 

I still use the okay sign regularly. Bc that's what it means too. I've never had anyone since accuse me of flipping them off.

[CaffeineDiary]

There is a multi-millennial use of the term "cheap" that is not racist, but if you apply that term to a Jew, you are dancing with the devil (see what I did there?) of antisemitism. Similarly, there is a thousand year (roughly) history of LITERALLY demonizing people of color that is, quite simply, not contestable. That's why the language is troubling in this case. That there are non-racist uses for a word doesn't magically cleanse uses of it in a racially charged situation. And you should know that.

 

As an aside, "the term has racist implications" doesn't imply that Wilson knew or didn't know about its history. The entire point is that we live in a culture where 400 years of systemic racism and white supremacy have created a world where plenty of white people are perfectly willing to believe fictional stories about Magical Demonic Black People who get stronger the more you shoot them, thus creating situations where juries decide that the shooter's crazy fears were justified.

[FaithManor]

I doubt his attorney would let him. It could be brought up in the court proceedings as an example of admission of wrongdoing, or something.

This is true. I do not want to comment on the case except to say that no one should assume Wilson has no remorse due to failure to make a statement. Any competent attorney will pretty much "gag" their client.

 

Many people jump to moral conclusions about individuals involved in court proceedings based on lack of statement without considering that they are not supposed to comment.

 

We can not even make any statements about our car accident this summer except to give medical updates despite my need to be able to talk out some issues in order to work through some emotional issues.

[lovinmyboys]

And yet Officer Wilson was allowed to return to the police station unescorted, where he washed the blood off his (unswabbed) hands and bagged his weapon himself. Apparently those pieces of forensic evidence (among quite a few others) weren't deemed so important.

 

The number of procedural errors in this case were mind boggling. And that IME is why the case should have gone to trial.

 

Link

Police bungling an investigation typically does not help the prosecution, which makes it less likely to go to trial. The justice department is investigating the Ferguson police department and will probably have something to say about the way the whole thing was handled.

[SKL]

I know I am pages and days late but I have to address this. I don't live in the US. I looked up the instructions for police officers regarding fire arms in Sweden. Our police officers are instructed to first shoot a warning shot, and then aim for the legs to disable. We had 4 deaths from police shootings in 2013 from a population of about 9 million. I wonder why US police officers have to be told to shoot to kill when other police officers in the world can be traind to shoot to injur. Shame that the US officers aren't as good of a shot as ours are.

 

Well, it could be because people in Sweden are less likely to kill police officers, so Swedish officers are more likely to come home at night after a confrontation.  I don't know.  If you don't understand that there is a huge difference between the population where you live and the population in Ferguson, you should probably read up before you comment.

 

I would also note that the "shoot to kill" isn't universal in the US.  Our country is pretty diverse.  I remember hearing that cops are trained to shoot to disable (though that was some time ago and maybe they decided it was causing more problems than it was solving.)

 

In general, "we're better than you" doesn't go over well.  "Shame on your country" even less.

[Lolly]

You will have to explain this to the Cheif of Police in Ferguson, or to the other police forces (like for example NYC) who publicly criticized the handling.

Nah, I don't have to; someone else (much more knowledgable and official than myself) already has. Just because someone of an official capacity publicly denounces something doesn't mean they are correct. 

[SKL]

... discussing the death of an 18 year old child, ..

 

OK....

[SKL]

As an aside, "the term has racist implications" doesn't imply that Wilson knew or didn't know about its history. The entire point is that we live in a culture where 400 years of systemic racism and white supremacy have created a world where plenty of white people are perfectly willing to believe fictional stories about Magical Demonic Black People who get stronger the more you shoot them, thus creating situations where juries decide that the shooter's crazy fears were justified.

 

Bringing it up here absolutely implies that Wilson knew "Demon" as a racist term, and that he used it because he was racist (and that he was scared because he was racist and that he killed MB because he was racist).  If he was ignorant it could be viewed as racist, then what does his use of it prove?  Nothing.  And he was making a statement to the Grand Jury (with the purpose of convincing them that he was scared enough to be afraid for his life), he was not giving a national speech which would justify vetting the use of language for any possible offense by anyone.

 

I do understand we hold Wilson to a higher standard than the average Ferguson resident, but I still find it interesting the way people are bending over backwards to be accepting of the stepfather's public "burn this __ down" comment and yet so unforgiving of the use of a word that (we now learn) some people might view as racist in a statement to the Grand Jury.  Both parties were understandably emotional.

[Pawz4me]

Police bungling an investigation typically does not help the prosecution, which makes it less likely to go to trial. The justice department is investigating the Ferguson police department and will probably have something to say about the way the whole thing was handled.

 

Exactly.  Which leads me to wonder whether the investigation may have been bungled on purpose.  DId the powers that be within the police department understand within a few minutes after the incident that a trial of Officer Wilson was not the desired outcome of their investigation?  Or maybe my suspicions are unfounded and they're just really incompetent.  The DOJ investigation will hopefully be able to determine that.  But I believe that in instances where an investigation was half as messed up as this one was there should be a trial.

[CaffeineDiary]

 

Bringing it up here absolutely implies that Wilson knew "Demon" as a racist term

 

Not in the least. You can keep saying this, but that won't make it true. Racism does not at all have to be conscious or intentional. The pernicious thing about white supremacy, in fact, is precisely that the belief system it perpetuates does its evil through unchallenged assumptions.

[Murphy101]

Exactly.  Which leads me to wonder whether the investigation may have been bungled on purpose.  DId the powers that be within the police department understand within a few minutes after the incident that a trial of Officer Wilson was not the desired outcome of their investigation?  Or maybe my suspicions are unfounded and they're just really incompetent.  The DOJ investigation will hopefully be able to determine that.  But I believe that in instances where an investigation was half as messed up as this one was there should be a trial.

I think in instances where things are this messed up the department should be investigated. A trial of an individual doesn't do that, but it does very likely make them a scape goat for the department and an easy piñata for the community.

 

A trial requires evidence of wrong doing. Bc, in laughable theory and written laws, a person is innocent until proven guilty. We don't have trials to determine if a person, much less an institution, is innocent. The grand jury determined there was not enough evidence to take to trial. Which is pretty pathetic bc it doesn't take much these days, but does line up with I have read in the documents they were given. But no, heck no, our government cannot and should not just bring a person to trial for possible murder without evidence in the hopes of finding evidence along the way, much less to see if something turns up against the organization they are employed by.

 

The police department is being investigated, which I think is a good thing.

 

If at some point during the investigation of the department, evidence is brought to light, then at that point that evidence can be brought before a grand jury and a trial would then be appropriate. It's important to note that fact. Since the officer was not brought to criminal court, he still can be.

[SKL]

I think people need to ask themselves whether they are wishing to indict Wilson, Ferguson's PD, white people, or the whole USA.

 

Many of the comments above are about things that are not in Wilson's control.  The Grand Jury cannot fix these things.  If Wilson gets punished for a situation he did not create, all that does is make Wilson a victim.

[mommaduck]

Wilson first. That will hopefully lead to an overhaul of the PDs of Ferguson and surrounding areas. White people? No. The entire US? Only in the address of the way LEOs across the US are trained and adjusting laws/rules that may intended to protect LEOs in one sense, but allow loopholes that let them get off when they shouldn't.

[TeacherZee]

Well, it could be because people in Sweden are less likely to kill police officers, so Swedish officers are more likely to come home at night after a confrontation.  I don't know.  If you don't understand that there is a huge difference between the population where you live and the population in Ferguson, you should probably read up before you comment.

 

I would also note that the "shoot to kill" isn't universal in the US.  Our country is pretty diverse.  I remember hearing that cops are trained to shoot to disable (though that was some time ago and maybe they decided it was causing more problems than it was solving.)

 

In general, "we're better than you" doesn't go over well.  "Shame on your country" even less.

 

Did you read the comments that I was responding to? They unequivocally stated that the ONLY option when a gun was involved was to shoot to kill. My point was that this simply wasn't true. In other places the police can be trained to shoot to injure so why are people stating that this isn't true.

 

And for the record Sweden is also incredibly diverse.

[poppy]

I think people need to ask themselves whether they are wishing to indict Wilson, Ferguson's PD, white people, or the whole USA.

 

Many of the comments above are about things that are not in Wilson's control.  The Grand Jury cannot fix these things.  If Wilson gets punished for a situation he did not create, all that does is make Wilson a victim.

 

Are you acknowledging  that the Ferguson PD did a very shoddy job of investigating and collecting evidence for what at least might have been a murder victim, for all they knew at the time?

[flyingiguana]

I know I am pages and days late but I have to address this. I don't live in the US. I looked up the instructions for police officers regarding fire arms in Sweden. Our police officers are instructed to first shoot a warning shot, and then aim for the legs to disable. We had 4 deaths from police shootings in 2013 from a population of about 9 million. I wonder why US police officers have to be told to shoot to kill when other police officers in the world can be traind to shoot to injur. Shame that the US officers aren't as good of a shot as ours are.

 

But what is the rate of Swedish police being killed by suspects?

 

I don't like living in a country where the police may feel as a matter of policy that they have to shoot to kill in these situations.  But it may be because it's been determined that this is the best way to not only protect the police but innocent civilians as well.

 

It would be interesting to compare statistics of cops getting killed by suspects.  I don't have them.  I found that for my city of about 400K, there were 3 cops killed by gunfire/vehicular assault in the past 14 years.  This does not include deaths of sheriff's, park police, or county They're all different, but I can't figure out what the overlap is or what population they cover, so I didn't count them.

 

The neighboring city (300K pop.) also had 3 deaths from gunfire (I know that at least 2 were due to suspects shooting at police).  Once again, not including a lot of other police agencies that cover the area.

 

Just looking at these numbers off the top of my head, I can say for certain that 2 were killed by a suspect in a population of 700K in the past 15 years.  That's a minimum number killed.  It may be higher, but I'm having trouble figuring out which were actually suspect related as opposed to accidents.  (This is not including a number of other deaths that were likely accidental -- electrocutions, car accidents, etc).  And I can't figure out which deaths actually occurred in the cities to which I have the population numbers.  So I erred on the lower side.

 

Extrapolating to the population of Sweden, that would mean at least 13 deaths "by suspect" in the past 15 years.  I can't find these statistics quite so easily.  It does appear that there were maybe 7 officers killed over this time period in incidents where an officer fired a gun.  4 were in one incident.

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/Mesko/207991.pdf

4 in one incident makes me wonder if it would be a fairer test if incidents were compared, not total deaths.

 

I'm not really supporting one hypothesis over the other -- to do that, I'd have to do more research and I don't have time (multiple issues -- whole other thread about making sure one gets car insurance the minute you buy a car, furnaces in -2F weather, cooking a turkey, etc.....)  So I'm just putting out there the bit I ran in to in case anyone else wants to pursue this topic.

 

Here's the site that lists officers killed in the US, by state and type of death: http://www.odmp.org/search/browse