A change in the homeschool movement since I started 13 years ago

[Reefgazer]

My kids attend a drop-off co-op on Fridays, which they love because they liked the social aspect of school and this kind of imitates that.  They take 3 classes at this co-op.  On Tuesday, we go to a co-op that requires parents to stay, and they only take 1 class each there.  I use the co-ops more for social interaction and enrichment, and teach the core courses myself.

So in some area's there are co-ops where you drop your kids off for every subject? I haven't seen that at here in CA. Maybe I'm to new to the homeschooling community. Unless you are talking high school. I know parents that do college classes for their high schoolers so they get dual credits. No one calls that a co-op though and I doubt any government agency would have an issue with a high school student being taught by a professor. I think it's great that we have options now. I know co-ops aren't for everybody just like regular park days aren't for everybody. I don't really know why moms like to tear each other down for their choices. 

 

[HS Mom in NC]

I've heard from a few moms that came to something and no one talked to them so they didn't come back.

 

And that's one of the big changes.  It used to be that new homeschoolers expected to introduce themselves to the group and initiate conversations with the people in the group.  Now most younger homeschool moms seem to expect it the other way around.  Most stand there silently waiting for a welcome wagon.  You can think that's for the better or for the worse, but it's definitely different than it used to be. I never ever ever ever expect anyone to initiate a conversation with me in any social situation ever, but then, I'm old.

 

A few weeks ago at the homeschool PE class I saw a woman with kid walk around sheepishly waiting for something to happen for her.   Everyone else was busy signing in, catching up with people they hadn't seen in a week, making sure the kids put their things nearby and had their water bottles, chased the preschoolers away from the pond, unloaded the curriculum and books they brought for someone else to browse through, etc.  There were probably 12-15 parents there.  I watched hover just outside the group her for about 5 minutes, and knowing she must be a new homeschooler, walked over and introduced myself, asked her if she was here for PE. I was most certainly not obligated to draw her in, I was going out of my way  to compensate for her.  It's not asking a lot of me.  Neither is expecting her to initiate and introduce herself on her own.   I hope she wasn't assuming we were all being cliquish. Everyone was just engaged in pleasantries with people they knew to different degrees.  About a quarter of them were new to the group but started a month earlier and none of them were being excluded.

 

One of the other new moms, someone else I had to introduce myself to because she did the same thing, walking around making eye contact, getting a smile in return but remaining silent, had been to another PE class earlier in the week at another location.  I overheard her saying to her son, " I see Trevor is completely ignoring you and acting like you're not even here after he spent so much time with you at Tuesday's class." Not only is she failing to teach her child to walk up to the kids in the group and introduce himself and ask their names like she should be doing, she's creating bitterness and resentment where it's unnecessary.  So Trevor can't play his friends that he already knows at this group and hasn't seen for a week because she doesn't understand the social norms?

 

Other new people knew to walk up, introduce themselves, ask questions and start conversations.

 

[guilfordlake]

And that's one of the big changes.  It used to be that new homeschoolers expected to introduce themselves to the group and initiate conversations with the people in the group.  Now most younger homeschool moms seem to expect it the other way around.  Most stand there silently waiting for a welcome wagon.  You can think that's for the better or for the worse, but it's definitely different than it used to be. I never ever ever ever expect anyone to initiate a conversation with me in any social situation ever, but then, I'm old.

 

A few weeks ago at the homeschool PE class I saw a woman with kid walk around sheepishly waiting for something to happen for her.   Everyone else was busy signing in, catching up with people they hadn't seen in a week, making sure the kids put their things nearby and had their water bottles, chased the preschoolers away from the pond, unloaded the curriculum and books they brought for someone else to browse through, etc.  There were probably 12-15 parents there.  I watched hover just outside the group her for about 5 minutes, and knowing she must be a new homeschooler, walked over and introduced myself, asked her if she was here for PE. I was most certainly not obligated to draw her in, I was going out of my way  to compensate for her.  It's not asking a lot of me.  Neither is expecting her to initiate and introduce herself on her own.   I hope she wasn't assuming we were all being cliquish. Everyone was just engaged in pleasantries with people they knew to different degrees.  About a quarter of them were new to the group but started a month earlier and none of them were being excluded.

 

One of the other new moms, someone else I had to introduce myself to because she did the same thing, walking around making eye contact, getting a smile in return but remaining silent, had been to another PE class earlier in the week at another location.  I overheard her saying to her son, " I see Trevor is completely ignoring you and acting like you're not even here after he spent so much time with you at Tuesday's class." Not only is she failing to teach her child to walk up to the kids in the group and introduce himself and ask their names like she should be doing, she's creating bitterness and resentment where it's unnecessary.  So Trevor can't play his friends that he already knows at this group and hasn't seen for a week because she doesn't understand the social norms?

 

Other new people knew to walk up, introduce themselves, ask questions and start conversations.

 

 

I'm sure you didn't intend it to do so, but this whole post makes this socially awkward, introverted homeschooler want to curl up in a ball and cry and never leave my house.  It's hard enough being the new person, let alone having to initiate conversation with people who are already in groups and/or busy with other things.  I'm so grateful for those people who've gone out of their way to try and include me (or others like me).

 

Jennifer

[happypamama]

I'm sure you didn't intend it to do so, but this whole post makes this socially awkward, introverted homeschooler want to curl up in a ball and cry and never leave my house. It's hard enough being the new person, let alone having to initiate conversation with people who are already in groups and/or busy with other things. I'm so grateful for those people who've gone out of their way to try and include me (or others like me).

 

Jennifer

I agree. I remember meeting the leader of our group at their annual portfolio share, where she told me that I should come to park day, and when I did, she was the only person I had met before, and I stuck kind of close to her (she was nice and became a good friend), until another mom, who had a baby my baby's age, introduced herself, and we clicked instantly. But even still, I didn't really know more than a few people until after the first year, and really, it wasn't until the second or third year where my kids and I really felt that we considered certain people to be friends. So now we are in our sixth year with this group, my fifth as a board member, and I remember feeling awkward, not wanting to butt into someone else's conversation, wanting to learn the culture of the group before volunteering for anything, and I really try to make it a point to at least introduce myself to new members. (It helps that I'm the secretary and have processed everyone's applications, and I remember things I read easily, so I can say, "Hi, I'm Susie, and you're. . .? Oh, yes, Jane Smith. You have a Sally who is in my DD's class and a Joey, too, right? I think he's my DS2's age.). We senior group members need to make an effort to welcome our new members, especially those that are new to homeschooling and who might feel overwhelmed both by new people and new responsibilities. I also think it sets the tone for our children to welcome new friends and not be cliquish when they see us do it. I do think our group is pretty good about that, though. Certainly, we have our own special friends, and I click with some people better than others, but I can be polite and welcoming to everyone.

[Shellydon]

I'm sure you didn't intend it to do so, but this whole post makes this socially awkward, introverted homeschooler want to curl up in a ball and cry and never leave my house.  It's hard enough being the new person, let alone having to initiate conversation with people who are already in groups and/or busy with other things.  I'm so grateful for those people who've gone out of their way to try and include me (or others like me).

 

Jennifer

 

Practice ahead of time.  Learning to introduce yourself and ask questions is a skill all adults should have and all children should learn. If you truly cannot walk up to someone (versus just not liking it), introduce yourself and initiate a basic conversation, consider getting some social skills coaching.  Social workers, speech pathologists and some counselors offer social skills groups just for this reason.

[EmseB]

A few weeks ago at the homeschool PE class I saw a woman with kid walk around sheepishly waiting for something to happen for her.   Everyone else was busy signing in, catching up with people they hadn't seen in a week, making sure the kids put their things nearby and had their water bottles, chased the preschoolers away from the pond, unloaded the curriculum and books they brought for someone else to browse through, etc.  There were probably 12-15 parents there.  I watched hover just outside the group her for about 5 minutes, and knowing she must be a new homeschooler, walked over and introduced myself, asked her if she was here for PE. I was most certainly not obligated to draw her in, I was going out of my way  to compensate for her.

 

 

I admit that sometimes when I'm new at an event or class I probably wander around looking like I don't know what to do or who to talk to because...I don't.  And on top of that, I don't like to interrupt people who are already in conversation with others.  But if I'm not new, and I see someone wandering like that, I just thought it was common courtesy to help them out, not "going out of my way to compensate for [someone else]".  Homeschooling aside, I can't think of any social situation where, if I saw someone wander in to an event looking a bit lost or new, I would say that I wasn't obligated to help them out.  Of course no one is obligated, it's just being nice and inclusive and friendly.  Welcome in the person who doesn't know anyone and make them feel comfortable with the group instead of them feeling like they are intruding.  And I would say this is especially true if it wasn't the first day for everyone else and they were trying to break into a class or event that had already been going for a few weeks.

 

Then again, I can't imagine spending a lot of time with people who felt like they were obligated to compensate for my perceived lack of social skills by simply taking the first step of introducing themselves.  Yikes.

 

ETA: I have no trouble going up to someone and politely asking if this is where PE class is and what do we need to start with, but polite, to me, does not include interupting others who are having conversations or are busy with their toddlers or are trying to organize supplies.  And if they are putting out the vibe that it is onerous for them to introduce themselves to me, or it's not their job to be inclusive to new people, then I'm definitely picking up that vibe and probably trying not to bother them anyway.

 

 

 

[Dassah]

nm

[guilfordlake]

Practice ahead of time.  Learning to introduce yourself and ask questions is a skill all adults should have and all children should learn. If you truly cannot walk up to someone (versus just not liking it), introduce yourself and initiate a basic conversation, consider getting some social skills coaching.  Social workers, speech pathologists and some counselors offer social skills groups just for this reason.

 

Yes, it is a basic skill everyone should have.  Yes, I can initiate conversation and ask questions as necessary. Being able to do those things does not make it easier to do them.  It's still awkward. It's still uncomfortable.  And I'm very proud of myself when I push through that. So it's very discouraging to read Homeschool Mom's post and hear the derision she has for those of us that struggle.  No, I don't "expect" a "welcome wagon" or "expect" anyone to initiate conversation but I am so very grateful to those people who are kind enough to do so.  And no, I don't expect anyone to "compensate" for me. Just be nice, grant us a little grace, and assume we're doing the best we can with the skills and the personality we have. Not everyone has the personality to walk into a room and take charge or jump into conversation with a unknown group of women.  Count yourself lucky if you can do that with relative ease. 

 

Jennifer, who will admit to being a bit sensitive on this topic

[J-rap]

I guess everything evolves over time, that's just the way of things.  As more people get into homeschooling, it becomes more refined and organized...whatever it takes to be more successful in homeschooling, I guess!  Isn't that the way with everything?  When I was in college, I backpacked in Europe for several months.  It was very willy-nilly, and we never really knew from day to day where we were going to end up for sure, though we had our tentative itineraries and plans.  That was back in 1979-1980.  Now you can reserve all your hostels online, take part in free walking tours of almost every major city,  and so much more.  As with everything, changes have both pros and cons, but the goal is always to do it better.

 

I think that's the way of homeschooling too.  Sometimes with our over-ambitious goals we miss out on things like just spending a lazy day at the park with other homeschoolers.

 

I live in a small town, and our homeschool group mostly just had park-time, gym-time (also unorganized!), and the occasional field trip.  ALL academics were done at home within our family group.  My kids have wonderful memories of those days.  Would I have taken part in a co-op if we had one?  You bet!  Once in high school, I would have jumped at the opportunity for my kids to take a math and science class with someone who had a much better handle on it than I did.  Those are both areas I feel inadequate in.

 

But those park days and gym times, and times we all went sledding and cross-country skiing, are what we remember so fondly.  :)

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I'm not sure this has changed so much. I remember talking to homeschoolers over 15 years ago who were doing small coops or getting together to swap math tutoring for Spanish instruction. I know when I started homeschooling I blithely told people that when we got to upper level academics that we'd have coops as support.

Perhaps it depends on the area and homeschool culture. In some places there were many refugee homeschoolers because the schools were bad. In other places charter schools drained a lot of families out of the general homeschool population. In another place there was a heavy academic emphasis with most kids planning to go to college.

 

Park days were fun when my kids were of run around the playground age.

 

One of my favorite support groups did bowling every other week for the whole school year. It was consistent and reliable. The kids were occupied and generally had fun. Moms hung out and chatted.

 

We've done coop but I had to decide that it was worth out out of the house time only if it served an academic purpose or had no assignments. I got very frustrated at having an outside deadline pressure for an optional class push my core subjects to a back burner.

 

But then I've also not joined a coop here because they don't fit our needs.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Oh fwiw we've lived six places since we started homeschooling. Different states and different countries. There is so much variety out there.

 

I think there is a tendency to want to find an authority who can help you do homeschooling right. Sometimes that is a packaged curriculum. Sometimes it's a structured coop. Sometimes it's a place that offers classes done by people with credentials.

 

My point is that often families want to find the right authority that will smooth all of the rough spots. I'm not sure such a thing exists. And each new program brings rough edges of its own.

 

Which is straying from the idea of park day a bit. I think back in the day the box of Abeka or Calvert or Sonlight materials was the outside authority some people rested in. Now it may be more likely to be a coop or online school or outside course support center.

[MinivanMom]

And that's one of the big changes.  It used to be that new homeschoolers expected to introduce themselves to the group and initiate conversations with the people in the group.  Now most younger homeschool moms seem to expect it the other way around.  Most stand there silently waiting for a welcome wagon.  You can think that's for the better or for the worse, but it's definitely different than it used to be. I never ever ever ever expect anyone to initiate a conversation with me in any social situation ever, but then, I'm old.

 

A few weeks ago at the homeschool PE class I saw a woman with kid walk around sheepishly waiting for something to happen for her.   Everyone else was busy signing in, catching up with people they hadn't seen in a week, making sure the kids put their things nearby and had their water bottles, chased the preschoolers away from the pond, unloaded the curriculum and books they brought for someone else to browse through, etc.  There were probably 12-15 parents there.  I watched hover just outside the group her for about 5 minutes, and knowing she must be a new homeschooler, walked over and introduced myself, asked her if she was here for PE. I was most certainly not obligated to draw her in, I was going out of my way  to compensate for her.  It's not asking a lot of me.  Neither is expecting her to initiate and introduce herself on her own.   I hope she wasn't assuming we were all being cliquish. Everyone was just engaged in pleasantries with people they knew to different degrees.  About a quarter of them were new to the group but started a month earlier and none of them were being excluded.

 

One of the other new moms, someone else I had to introduce myself to because she did the same thing, walking around making eye contact, getting a smile in return but remaining silent, had been to another PE class earlier in the week at another location.  I overheard her saying to her son, " I see Trevor is completely ignoring you and acting like you're not even here after he spent so much time with you at Tuesday's class." Not only is she failing to teach her child to walk up to the kids in the group and introduce himself and ask their names like she should be doing, she's creating bitterness and resentment where it's unnecessary.  So Trevor can't play his friends that he already knows at this group and hasn't seen for a week because she doesn't understand the social norms?

 

Other new people knew to walk up, introduce themselves, ask questions and start conversations.

 

 

Wow, this is harsh!

 

I thought it was basic social skills to reach out to new people. I do this at my church, in my neighborhood, and even at activities like ballet when there is a new child joining my daughter's age group at the studio. As a member of the group, it is my responsibility to say hello, introduce myself, and try to include the new person. I try to not be so busy that I don't have time to do this or look unapproachable. I don't cozy up with my close friends to talk about private things that don't include the whole group. I can talk to my friends on the phone or when we get together later in the week. I try to include everyone, and I always encourage my children to include the new children and will tsk them in private later if I think they were off with their best friend instead of reaching out.

 

I think many long-time homeschoolers are seriously lacking in social skills . . . and kindness.

[MinivanMom]

I have been part of a very large, inclusive group since we started homeschooling. I was surprised by how unfriendly people were to us when we first visited the group, but I kept on showing up, introducing myself, and talking to people. We can't join any of the religious groups and won't fit in the unschooling groups, so this was really our only option. I have never made a single friend among the people who were already members when we joined umpteen years ago.

 

Eventually, I had been there long enough to know who the group members were and who was new, so I focused my efforts on the newer people. For years, I went to every single park day and introduced myself to every single new person. I was the one-woman welcome committee. I became very popular among the younger, newer moms, but it was painful to see the way the older, cliquey members treated them. They didn't just expect newcomers to be the ones who reached out to them, they were annoyed when new people introduced themselves. They just wanted the new people to be friends with each other, so they wouldn't have to bother. I tried very hard, but I couldn't do it all on my own and got a little burnt out when I began to see so many moms put their kids back in school due to a lack of support and a lack of friends for their children.

 

After some incidents involving cliquey private groups, where several of the younger moms were treated very harshly, and after an incident where my daughter was bullied by the daughters of some of the long-time members, I finally stepped back from our involvement in the group. We took a full year off from groups. About six months ago, I finally began dipping my toes in a newer secular group that's based here in our suburb. If anything, these issues seem to be much worse in this smaller local group. We will finish out our commitment to a series of fieldtrips, and then we will be done with this group as well.

 

At this point, I'm considering just starting my own homeschool support group/park day. My only hesitation is that I've been around the secular homeschool community in our area for so many years, and I don't want to step on toes or burn bridges. I think I have this fantasy idea that if it was my group and I was setting the tone, then things could be different. I'm not sure if that's true or not. The unfriendliness seems to be a widespread problem in the homeschooling community.

[happypamama]

MinivanMom, why not give it a shot? Set up a park day and invite a few of the families that you know and like, and encourage them to bring others that they like, and see where it goes.

[Ellie]

 

At this point, I'm considering just starting my own homeschool support group/park day. My only hesitation is that I've been around the secular homeschool community in our area for so many years, and I don't want to step on toes or burn bridges. I think I have this fantasy idea that if it was my group and I was setting the tone, then things could be different. I'm not sure if that's true or not. The unfriendliness seems to be a widespread problem in the homeschooling community.

 

I think you are well qualified to start a support group. :grouphug:

 

Surely, there must be other people who feel the way you do. As the leader, you would set the tone for the whole support group, and those people would find you.

 

As long as you never, ever mention the other support groups, you shouldn't have to worry about stepping on toes. If the leaders or members of those other groups get their panties in a bunch because of your support group, that is their problem.

[Jean in Newcastle]

 I have no one to discuss--should we aim for 3 semesters of calc at the college? Take physics 170 or 201? Do we travel 3 hours one way for string lessons? What's the difference between Early Action and Early Decision at application time? How do we write a school profile and what about weighted and unweighted grading? I have no one with whom to discuss this. 

I've always found it easier to discuss those sorts of things online or a generalized meeting than one-on-one.  When it is online, you can hear all the different pros and cons and experiences and choose the ones that  best fit your circumstances.  When it is one-on-one it feels different to me.  For one thing, I'm getting the feedback of just one or perhaps two people.  And for another, it seems more pressure somehow to do it the way they did.  

[HS Mom in NC]

I'm sure you didn't intend it to do so, but this whole post makes this socially awkward, introverted homeschooler want to curl up in a ball and cry and never leave my house.  It's hard enough being the new person, let alone having to initiate conversation with people who are already in groups and/or busy with other things.  I'm so grateful for those people who've gone out of their way to try and include me (or others like me).

 

Jennifer

 

I'm an introvert too. I'm never happy or comfortable in new situations and it's not in my nature to strike up a conversation with strangers.  That's no reason for me to expect someone else to get into a new social situation. No one else is obligated to make my social life happen.  No one at a homeschool get together has the burden of making me comfortable and initiating a conversation with me.  It's my job to do that.  It's my job to act contrary to my instincts and natural inclinations to join the group.  The responsibility for my situation lies with me and no one else.  So I have to grit my teeth and force myself.  It's also my job to teach my children how to do that by modeling it for them.  I cannot teach them that life will happen to them-it won't I have to teach them to make things happen.

[EmseB]

I'm an introvert too. I'm never happy or comfortable in new situations and it's not in my nature to strike up a conversation with strangers.  That's no reason for me to expect someone else to get into a new social situation. No one else is obligated to make my social life happen.  No one at a homeschool get together has the burden of making me comfortable and initiating a conversation with me.  It's my job to do that.  It's my job to act contrary to my instincts and natural inclinations to join the group.  The responsibility for my situation lies with me and no one else.  So I have to grit my teeth and force myself.  It's also my job to teach my children how to do that by modeling it for them.  I cannot teach them that life will happen to them-it won't I have to teach them to make things happen.

 

 

I'm trying to follow the logic that says you never expect someone else to initiate a social interaction, except when it's a new person joining a homeschooling group that you're a member of, and then you do expect the new person to initiate a social interaction with you.  That seems rather arbitrary.

 

I think maybe where I differ when reading your post is in the view that welcoming a new group member is a burden.  If it is truly a burden, then perhaps the group should be closed to new members?  Seriously, if this is the predominant attitude in a group (that new members should not be spoken to until they initiate conversation), it sounds like new members aren't really wanted.  And if the majority of the group members feel it isn't their responsibility to make new people feel welcome or comfortable, then that's probably already the case.

 

I do agree that kids need to be taught to be conversational and stand up and force themselves to learn to behave in a socially appropriate way in order to accomplish what they need to get done.  I think they also need to be taught to be welcoming and friendly to new people they encounter in an established group setting.  I teach my kids to introduce themselves to new kids and invite them to play or show them around the class.  I very much view that as their responsibility.

 

[source of joy]

Give me a minute to put my head between my knees now that I realize I've been homeschooling for 13 years!!!!!

 

Anyways! I've noticed that when I started this journey there were lots of hs groups that met weekly at a park and the kids just played. Just played. the teenagers all the way down to the newborns. Well, obviously newborns didn't play, but they got admired and held, etc. The moms sat and talked. Jus talked. Talked about what was going right, going wrong, what was for dinner, what they missed about working, their pets, whatever.

 Then we met once a month and had some kind of educational activity. A field trip. A science day. International Night. Etc.

 

Now, there are way more groups and they still meet weekly but instead of just...gasp!...hanging out, it's all day educational classes (aka co-op) and homework assignments. And MAYBE once a month fun things like skating. Maybe.

 

I'm really not fond of this shift. What was wrong with just going to a park and letting kids PLAY?

 

I've been noticing this in our area BIG time and have commiserated about it quite a bit myself.  Just last night I was at a friend's house and she'd been informed that she needs to teach more often at her co-op than she thought she needed to.  She is sooo done with co-op but since it's her last year with this co-op, she's going to just do what it takes. 

 

I have come to realize that I am not a co-op person and I still worry that my 8 yr. old son is not able to regularly connect with peers because of my disability.  When my dd-16 was little, we got together on a weekly basis with a few moms for coffee and/or lunch and let the children just play and us mom's were able to just chat and be.  However, one of the mom's thought that we needed to turn it into something more productive...at first, it was just bring a craft of some kind you'd like to do with your own child and share how to do it with the group.  Eventually that wasn't enough.  A huge group project ensued which turned into a very mom intensive co-op that I couldn't keep up with for various reason, one of them being a chronic illness.  Nevertheless, it has taken us about 5 years to start to put our "new" life back together so to speak.  The children are starting to find new friends etc...it's been a VERY long and hard journey because I had put everything into this co-op. 

 

I miss the days of just being and sharing with one another.   Thanks for starting this thread, it helps me to realize I'm not the only one feeling the way I do about this trend.

 

[guilfordlake]

I'm an introvert too. I'm never happy or comfortable in new situations and it's not in my nature to strike up a conversation with strangers.  That's no reason for me to expect someone else to get into a new social situation. No one else is obligated to make my social life happen.  No one at a homeschool get together has the burden of making me comfortable and initiating a conversation with me.  It's my job to do that.  It's my job to act contrary to my instincts and natural inclinations to join the group.  The responsibility for my situation lies with me and no one else.  So I have to grit my teeth and force myself.  It's also my job to teach my children how to do that by modeling it for them.  I cannot teach them that life will happen to them-it won't I have to teach them to make things happen.

 

I would not disagree with any of this.  But I think you can do all this and still have compassion for those who might struggle.

 

Jennifer

[ElizaG]

I'm trying to follow the logic that says you never expect someone else to initiate a social interaction, except when it's a new person joining a homeschooling group that you're a member of, and then you do expect the new person to initiate a social interaction with you.  That seems rather arbitrary.

 

I think maybe where I differ when reading your post is in the view that welcoming a new group member is a burden.  If it is truly a burden, then perhaps the group should be closed to new members?  Seriously, if this is the predominant attitude in a group (that new members should not be spoken to until they initiate conversation), it sounds like new members aren't really wanted.  And if the majority of the group members feel it isn't their responsibility to make new people feel welcome or comfortable, then that's probably already the case.

 

I do agree that kids need to be taught to be conversational and stand up and force themselves to learn to behave in a socially appropriate way in order to accomplish what they need to get done.  I think they also need to be taught to be welcoming and friendly to new people they encounter in an established group setting.  I teach my kids to introduce themselves to new kids and invite them to play or show them around the class.  I very much view that as their responsibility.

 

 

It seems as if there are two very different attitudes about homeschool support groups on this thread.  Some people are thinking of their local group as a community of human persons that's supposed to serve the greater good, and others are thinking of it as an assortment of separate individuals that only has value as a way to get their own (or their families') needs met.  At least, that's the impression I'm getting from the posts so far. 

 

If I took the second attitude, I suppose I'd be reluctant to take on obligations to do all the often-annoying things involved in building said community.  And that would include talking to newcomers, if I didn't have any particular interest in meeting them.  But then, if I felt that way, I'd probably just avoid the support group, and spend all my time with private groups that were more tailored to the sort of people and activities that would suit our homeschool at this point in time.   Maybe that's one reason why those sorts of more exclusive (often paid) groups and co-ops are becoming more popular?

 

To me, this all points to bigger problems in the social fabric.  It seems as if the Internet is facilitating this.   Everyone gets to live in a virtual "gated community."  Not sure what can be done about this, but it seems to go against traditional American values. 

 

And as for those who presume that the people who feel left out must be in need of "social skills training" -- this isn't necessarily the case.  True social skills go both ways.   If the situation is really such that we need to hire experts to train our children to get along in group environments that are entirely based on self-interest (even when they're posing as "support groups"), then frankly, I think it would be more honest and accurate to call this "selfishness skills training."   :huh:

[weaver_67579]

I have only been at this 8 years-so a relative newbie compared to most.

 

I also enjoyed park days when I first started and rarely-if ever participate now. I think the difference in that is not that there aren't any in the area, but I have different needs now for my family. My kids were younger and enjoyed park days then. The oldest is now in High school and the demands of academic work dictate that she spends a lot more time on her schooling than back then. She also is not fond of park time any more. Most of my friends are in the same boat (and most of them do not also have little kids like me), so I just don't meet my friends in that kind of setting any more. There are groups of families with mostly younger kiddos that do meet for that kind of socialization and play. I like them, but I just don't feel like I have time to spend hanging around chatting while the littles hang at the park for the afternoon. I also don't always feel like I have a lot in common with them, since most are something like 20 years younger than me.

 

I also see in the thread the difference between COOP and support group. I see a support group as a group of people that get together to support each other in the homeschooling lifestyle. I am a member (in fact a member from the first meeting 5 years ago) of a fairly large support group. I love the group. It is very welcoming to anyone. We have people from many different backgrounds and who homeschool in ways ranging from classical to radical unschooling to everything in between. We meet once a month for a meeting and support and have a Meetup group online where anyone can post any kind of activity/get-together/class.  It works well for us. There are activities listed from laid back park days to rigorous coops all available in the area and all are listed-either sponsored by the group/ available in the area / or personal activities inviting others to join (like I'm going to XYZ movie-anyone want to come?) I am happy to help new homeschoolers and do often, but I tend not to hang out at the outings where they will be the primary participants. The support I need is for the upper grade stuff not elementary. I expect the above from a support group-not classes.

 

For a coop- we have a couple in the area. One is a laid back completely parent led supplemental type coop. There are no core classes offered-only electives. That tends to be frequented by people with mostly younger kids. I was a founding member and even led it in the past. It is wonderful and I miss the people, but I just can't fit it in... There is also a rigorous for credit coop that we now attend. Most of the high school classes are led by paid professionals from our area. Some for the elementary/middle school ones are professionals and some are parent-led. This coop is mostly driven by the high school families.

 

I am kind of concerned about the bashing attitude I have seen on here about coops. It is fine if they don't work for your family-that doesn't indicate that I can't find them useful for mine. Sure I can teach every subject to my high school dd, but I don't see any problem in outsourcing some of it to someone that can do a better job than me. For instance, I stink at foreign language so the kids take classes from a wonderful retired Spanish instructor who we love. Why is slogging through Rosetta stone with me as an inadequate instructor better just because we are doing it ourselves at home? I also don't think just because you do it all at home-that you are less than an adequate instructor. I know my limits as you should know yours. I also see a fair amount of complaints of not liking how things are in support groups/coops in your area. Well only you can change that. Start something new that is to your liking if you wish. I live in a rural area and have still been involved in the formation of our rather big support group, the small laid back coop and the big academic one. They all take a lot of work. All have been worth it to me to have the resources I was wanting for my children. I think there is not much value in lamenting the way things were. If you want park play days, set them up. Maybe the OP is like me-where her group of peers primarily has kids that have kind of outgrown the park days.

[EmseB]

Just speaking for myself, but I seek out more experienced homeschool moms because they are like my colleagues, but with years of experience. If I share a beginner story with you, it's likely because I want to know how you would have handled it or what I can do better. I don't want to be isolated to a bunch of people with kids exactly like mine and interests and experience exactly like mine. Heck, that's one of the main reasons I value homeschooling is that my kids' friends are not based on what grade my kid is in, and neither are mine. Is it really like that for more experienced homeschoolers? "Sorry, newbie, you don't meet my needs, go play with people your own age." Maybe that is why many of you feel that the homeschool culture is changing -- you're shutting down to those who would want and need mentors because it's somehow not your demographic and you feel there's no benefit in making friends, being a mentor for those of us coming up, and maybe trying to see the benefits of relationships like that.

 

And even if I've been homeschooling for 15 years, that doesn't mean that when I walk into a group of people and I'm the "newbie" I won't still want to feel welcomed by the individuals in that group.

 

We move a lot, and I'm often new to a lot of groups. I'm actually sort of shocked that I could potentially encounter people who ostensibly belong to these groups in order to socialize and yet are so...unfriendly? Detached? Aloof? And then complain that the generation coming up doesn't know the right way to behave in said groups.

[HS Mom in NC]

You're all kidding right?  You aren't all actually expecting me (and the dozen to dozen and a half of the others like me) in the middle of conversations with someone else; in the act of directing/retrieving  preschoolers here and there and setting boundaries; in the act of returning and borrowing curriculum and discussing it with someone who asked to borrow it to browse through; unloading camp chairs, lunches, water bottles, play equipment; signing in; directing children to help the coach unload equipment and get in the correct lines based on age for warm ups; to not only do all of this which requires attention (I was was explaining to a newbie homeschooler what subject integration is and giving her several examples of it because we both got there a few minutes early and were engaged in conversation as the start time neared) but to immediately stop mid-conversation soon as a new person shows up and stands silently at a distance at a large park and draw them into the group every time. 

 

Now as I pointed out, I did interrupt the conversation I had going to engage her, which many a person would consider rude to the person I was talking with.  I consciously chose to pull her in because this ain't my first rodeo, and I know many people in her situation are very quick to say nasty things about a group because someone didn't take responsibility for drawing them in.  Then I had to risk her thinking I was being short with her so I could get back to the conversation I had put on hold for her sake.  Damned if you do, damned if you don't. This is why everyone has to take responsibility for their own social entrances.

You don't really think they have no responsibility at all to initiate a single conversation or interaction because of their personality types and or  because they didn't know anyone there. You don't really think the burden is on the group even though  people file in at  different rates and get caught up in conversations as they meet up with other people.  There's no time when everyone is sitting silently disengaged from everything around them, watching for new people and going up to meet them and you don't really think there should be do you? So, fellow introverts, after someone takes the responsibility to draw you in to a new group, will you take on the responsibility to draw other people in from then on or does that only apply to the extroverts in the group?  Will you be taking a poll of which category each person falls into so you know who's shirking their responsibilities and who is exempt?

 

Was one of the new people who did know to introduce herself to the group as she arrived a bad mom for telling her 10 year old daughter, who sat pouting after class while the other kids played Star Wars, that the girl had very unrealistic expectations that some kid would come give her a personal invitation to join in?  Was her mother wrong to tell her, "You just go up to them sand say 'Hi, I'm Hannah!' and then just do what they do." And the 3 or 4 mothers sitting near her and heard the conversation were wrong to say, "Yes, just go over there and join in.  That's how it was when they were new too." You expect everyone to break from the social norm and the kids should stop the playing and look for new people who are sitting away from the playing and walk up to her and say, "Would you please join us?" The kids are supposed to know that she's sitting  in the same area where the kids who don't like to play Star Wars are sitting but they're supposed to read her mind that she does want to play Star Wars.  Really?
 

One of the other groups I attended for several years had 125 member families in it this doesn't include visitors who are trying it out and haven't joined.)   Their park days included up to a couple hundred people or more in any given month.  There was no way to know who was new and who wasn't.  You would've had to attend for years to be able to do that.  How on earth could anyone be expected to identify all new families that showed up on different park days?  There wasn't anyone in charge of it.  There was no hostess or receptionist or dear leader.  There were swarms of people coming and going at all different times as it started at 9 am and went until people decided to leave. Really?!?!  You expect people to walk up and see if you're new? A lot of them are new too.  Even people who've been around a while could go months before recognizing new vs. old members.

 

The unschooling group I attended for a few years, which was open to everyone, usually had a couple dozen families attend each time.  Not every family attended every time, so again, there was no way people were going to know who was new for a looong time.  There were plenty of people they hadn't met yet. Some knew to introduce themselves to get the ball rolling.  How did other people not know that?  There were conversations going on between people who did know each other well or a little. None were under obligation to stay on constant new person alert and drop everything if they suspected a new person showed up. It's so unrealistic and impossible in those situations.

A homeschooling group that meets twice a year from the church I used to attend had about 2-3 dozen people show up each time.  Some were new, some weren't, but in a church of 300 people, you can attend regularly for quite a while without meeting everyone.  Very few people will know if you're new or a regular.  Many a time I was in conversations (some I started, some they started) with people who wanted to know if I was new because of the number of attendees and different attendance patterns, we hadn't met, even though I'd been attending for about 2 years.  That's just the reality of things. There was a woman hosting it a her home, but she can't meet everyone and chat will all of them.  There were lots of moms there dealing with their kids (2-12 kids each,lots of special needs kids too.) There were lots of people coming and going at different times and getting involved in different conversations before and after the directed subject time which was to introduce yourself, how you came to homeschool and the names and ages of your kids. Don't expect them to end all conversation they're already in while scanning for new people.  It can't work that way. It's not possible.

 

Do you expect this at churches too?  I've been trying different churches for months.  I haven't known anyone at them.  Most of the time no one comes up to me and says, "Hey, you must be new, I'm ___________________."  Does that happen?  Occasionally.  Do I expect it? No. Maybe from a greeter but when lots of people show up at once there's no way for them to do that. I start conversations with people myself.  I ask them what they like about the church or if they can tell me who can answer my questions about it. Same with other social events around here. Unless you show up at a person's home for a dinner party or something, don't expect a welcome wagon.  Go introduce yourself to a group and those who aren't currently in the middle of a conversation or hands on tending to their children are good candidates for a conversation with you-practice something like, "HI, I'm ____________.  I don't think I've met you yet."  I've never in my life met a person who didn't respond in kind.  Once they do, have a conversation starter ready to go like, "How did you get into homeschooling?" or "How long have you been homeschooling?" or "How did you hear about this group? " or something like that.  I have never once in 14 years of homeschooling had someone refuse to answer or walk away or say something nasty.  Never once. I have always seen warm replies.

 

I help newbies more than any veteran I ever met outside of a homeschool convention.  I do mini workshops at my house and at the PE class for newbies on different educational approaches compared and contrasted 3 times a year, I wrote  a list of those approaches and the curriculum that falls under those categories, reading recommendations, how to design a unit study from scratch, lapbooking workshops, I've written several articles that I give out on how to get started, homeschool subcutlures and I bring and loan curriculum and other materials for people who would like to browse before they buy it. Before I homeschooled I hosted groups at my house of people considering it who wanted to chat and learn more about homeschooling (pre-internet.) I've done interviews with reporters who wanted to know about homeschooling and I've volunteered many an hour with people who want to brainstorm ideas about running their household or homeschool differently. I've also defended homeschooling on talk radio in response to amazingly bizarre misrepresentations of it in the media.

 If I am sitting not talking to anyone about anything (very rare in large groups because other people in the group often refer people with questions to me)  I will initiate the conversation with a new person.  As I've pointed out, I do that sometimes when I'm engaged in meeting someone else's needs in a conversation for the sake of preemptive damage control for the group even though I shouldn't have to.   Since I've done all of that, I think in return, newbies can force out a "Hi, I'm _____________. I'm new." and "How did you get into homeschooling?" when they walk up to the group even if no else initiated a conversation with them.

[8filltheheart]

." Maybe that is why many of you feel that the homeschool culture is changing -- you're shutting down to those who would want and need mentors because it's somehow not your demographic and you feel there's no benefit in making friends, being a mentor for those of us coming up, and maybe trying to see the benefits of relationships like that.

 

This thread has taken some interesting twists.

 

Just popping back in to say that the above is not my case, though I could see it being the case for some.

 

For me, I have kids that cross an interesting age span. My oldest ds is a dad of 3. His oldest will be starting K in a yr and a half, so he is in the generation of being homeschooled and leaning toward homeschooling his own kids. Homeschooling back then was a completely different world. No internet. Only 5 families in my entire county. I knew of 3 homeschooling resources: Greenleaf Press, Emmanuel Books, and Seton. I only knew about them b/c of word of mouth by the other 5 families!

 

I still have a pre-schooler. I have kids that are peers with newbie families. (as a matter of fact, my younger 3 only have homeschool friends who are new homeschooling families.) The mindset of the newer families is just different. They are used to options. Lots and lots of options. They are used to immediate access to just about anything they want. It is simply different. That doesn't mean worse. It just means different.

 

I do know many newer homeschooling families, both here (where we have lived for about a yr and a half) and where we used to live that felt like completely homeschooling, even for primary/elementary grades, meant that they were depriving their kids academically. That is a "new" idea. I never encountered that view back in our beginning yrs. The idea did crop up at the high school level even then and I knew many homeschoolers who put their kids in high school. If a parent really feels that way, I am 100% supportive of options. However, if a parent is MADE to feel that way by other homeschoolers when it is not a valid truth, that is different. I have seen parents feel badgered into joining group classes b/c they are surrounded by other homeschooling parents who tell them they cannot possibly do as well at home. (And that is definitely a huge negative from my perspective.)

[HS Mom in NC]

The biggest reason people are so specific about the term co-op is to avoid problems.  In a true co-operative everyone who has a kid participating is expected to do some of the work.  Parents who aren't expecting to do any of the work  and want to pay and drop the kid off seem surprised when they sign their kid up and then are given a list of responsibilities to choose from for themselves.  "What!? You expect me to do something other than bring my kid(s)? " Yes. Others who expect a true co-operative are surprised when there's fee.  When they saw co-op, they expected to pay by volunteering their time to do some of the work, not pay a fee.  That's why some of us are so precise to clarify.

And I agree with 8 fill the heart when it comes to pressure to outsource.  We have people in the homeschooling community who really don't think it's possible for ANYONE to do full K-12 at home with mom and dad. I've met these homeschoolers.  They will actually ask, "How can anyone possibly do high school at home?"  That's very different than choosing to outsource because you individually feel unable to do it or you choose not to.  Some of us believe it is possible in some, many or most  situations. 

[guilfordlake]

You're all kidding right?  You aren't all actually expecting me (and the dozen to dozen and a half of the others like me) in the middle of conversations with someone else; in the act of directing/retrieving  preschoolers here and there and setting boundaries; in the act of returning and borrowing curriculum and discussing it with someone who asked to borrow it to browse through; unloading camp chairs, lunches, water bottles, play equipment; signing in; directing children to help the coach unload equipment and get in the correct lines based on age for warm ups; to not only do all of this which requires attention (I was was explaining to a newbie homeschooler what subject integration is and giving her several examples of it because we both got there a few minutes early and were engaged in conversation as the start time neared) but to immediately stop mid-conversation soon as a new person shows up and stands silently at a distance at a large park and draw them into the group every time. 

 

 

 

Speaking only for myself, I don't expect anything from you.  You don't have to initiate conversation with me, or draw me into a group if you don't want to or if you are busy.  Just, if I'm standing at the outskirts looking awkward and uncomfortable, please don't sneer at me for looking awkward and uncomfortable.  Don't feel obligated to help me, especially if you are going to be noticeably irritated with me for being awkward and uncomfortable. That's all.  

 

Jennifer

[guilfordlake]

I have to say I agree with the above.

 

It doesn't mean I don't reach out to newbies - I do. Wherever possible I am at the least polite and when I can, I try to link people up to other people in their area/with kids the same age/let them know about activities.

 

But it's very definitely at the very least a shared responsibility.

 

This might sound harsh, but older homeschool mums are often  not looking for the same things as newbies. They are not looking for new friends or to share beginner stories. I have too many friends to keep up with as it is. This is going to sound horrible, but I won't be interested in actual friendship unless your child has clicked with my child and is roughly a similar age. In any case, most of the homeschool moms I know are not my friends, they are my colleagues...it's a different thing...a good thing....

 

In some ways, it's better to consider us as resources. Ask us things. "Who here is also new ? Do you know anyone with kids my age ? Are there any support groups or classes you can recommend ? " Most of them time, that's how we can help you.

 

I know this sounds harsh, but I don't mean it to. Don't forget, every older homeschool mom was also a newbie once, and some of what we say comes from our own experience about how things went for us - what worked, what didn't.

 

That part of your quote that I bolded---that's all I would ask.

 

Jennifer

[EmseB]

Reading this long post, I think you and I have very different ideas of what it means to be welcoming to someone.  It's not about burdening yourself, or compensating for their lack of social skills, or "immediately stopping mid-conversation".  It's a natural attitude of welcoming new folks and helping them know where to go and what to do.  If you are too busy to do that without feeling like you're taking heroic efforts for my sake, then in general, no, please don't condescend to greet me or help me out.  It's not about who is supposed to do what, or what greeting or effort people owe you.  It's just friendliness and kindness.  Friendliness and kindness are not from a place of feeling like it isn't your job or you shouldn't have to do xyz.

I have been a member of 4 different churches in the last 10 years.  In every single church I have visited multiple people in each one have come up to introduce themselves and show me the nursery, either when we entered, or during the social time after/between services.  I'm not exaggerating when I say every single church, and if I went to a church where no one introduced themselves to visitors as a matter of course, I probably wouldn't come back.  That doesn't mean I can't ask where the nursery is (I have), or introduce myself and ask questions (I have done that as well), but I've never been to a church that doesn't have a general culture of focusing outwardly.

 

You don't really think they have no responsibility at all to initiate a single conversation or interaction because of their personality types and or  because they didn't know anyone there.

I think several people have very clearly stated otherwise, even those of us advocating for a welcoming atmosphere in an established group.  You're using hyperbole and setting up a straw man.

 

Was one of the new people who did know to introduce herself to the group as she arrived a bad mom for telling her 10 year old daughter, who sat pouting after class while the other kids played Star Wars, that the girl had very unrealistic expectations that some kid would come give her a personal invitation to join in?  Was her mother wrong to tell her, "You just go up to them sand say 'Hi, I'm Hannah!' and then just do what they do." And the 3 or 4 mothers sitting near her and heard the conversation were wrong to say, "Yes, just go over there and join in.  That's how it was when they were new too." You expect everyone to break from the social norm and the kids should stop the playing and look for new people who are sitting away from the playing and walk up to her and say, "Would you please join us?" The kids are supposed to know that she's sitting  in the same area where the kids who don't like to play Star Wars are sitting but they're supposed to read her mind that she does want to play Star Wars.  Really?

 

 

Again, exaggeration and deliberately misreading isn't really helpful to the conversation.  No one is even remotely saying this is wrong, or even that they don't encourage their kids in the same way.  But I also encourage my sons to approach new kids and introduce themselves and make other newer kids feel a part of the group.  It is always harder for the new kid than it is for the established group.  If the other kid is too shy to talk, then there's not much they can do about that, but I would be very happy if my kids initiated the introductions and welcoming to a new kid who is feeling shy and out of place.
 

It's interesting, because one of the reasons I've been able to overcome a lot of my shyness and hesitation (aside from moving umpteen times) is because I imagine that most people just want to be friendly.  If I imagined anything like the attitude you're describing when I went into a new group situation I'd be much more self conscious and probably a lot intimidated and a lot more shy.  Which would only exasperate you further, it seems. :)

 

[MinivanMom]

I think I've been unclear in my use of language. When I say "new" homeschool moms, I mean new to the area; I don't mean young or inexperienced or new to homeschooling. We live in a large, urban area with a lot of transplants from all over the US (and the world). So these moms aren't newbies with young children annoying the older moms with their silly questions. I have seen older, experienced moms (who are simply new to the local community) get the cold shoulder. I have seen them put their younger kids back in school (older kids are grown and flown) with the comment that we have the most unfriendly homeschooling community they have ever encountered. This isn't just about a mismatch in ages and experience between the longtime members and newbies. It's about unfriendliness and cliques.

 

None of which is a statement about any of you. This is my experience with the homeschool groups and the homeschoolers in my local area. It is not an attack on any of you personally. In fact, I would guess that anyone who cares enough to be posting about homeschool support issues on this thread is probably one of the good ones who is generally friendly and trying to contribute to their local community.

[MinivanMom]

Speaking only for myself, I don't expect anything from you.  You don't have to initiate conversation with me, or draw me into a group if you don't want to or if you are busy.  Just, if I'm standing at the outskirts looking awkward and uncomfortable, please don't sneer at me for looking awkward and uncomfortable.  Don't feel obligated to help me, especially if you are going to be noticeably irritated with me for being awkward and uncomfortable. That's all.  

 

Jennifer

 

This is the attitude in your posts (you Homeschool Mom in AZ, not guilfordlake) that people are responding to. No one is saying that you do not contribute to your local community. On the contrary, I have always gotten the impression from your posts that you are a very involved leader in your local community. Your comments here in this thread, however, give the impression that you look down on women who are shy or introverted, or maybe even a little awkward. Perhaps that isn't your intention, but many people are reading your comments and getting the impression that you consider it a burden to interact with new people and that you look down on anyone who doesn't meet your standard for proper social interactions.

 

I always take the initiative when I am new to introduce myself and build relationships with others, but I am also deeply grateful when I encounter genuine friendliness. When I am a part of the group, I reach out to those that are new, not because I feel obligated to or because I think the responsibility lies all with me, but because I like new people and I've moved so many times in my life that I know how hard it can be to be in that position as the newcomer. If someone seems shy and awkward, then I feel a greater desire to reach out. If I don't have a lot in common with them (or I'm not in a similar life stage) then I try to introduce them to people that might be a better match. Not because I feel sorry for them or don't think they will find those people on their own, but because it doesn't cost me anything to help. And I like people and I want to help. And because I remember - with deep appreciation - the very popular girl I met my first day at my second high school (out of three total) who took the time to introduce herself to me when she saw me standing alone in the hallway before school and then tracked me down at lunch and introduced me to a group of smart, conservative Christian girls she thought I would fit with. I never saw her again (she got expelled from school the following day and I moved again at the end of that year), but her act of kindness mattered to me. It's not that hard to be nice.

 

I hope that nobody introverted or shy or awkward (and we've all had awkward moments at some point in our lives) reads this thread and starts to fear that the extroverted confident ladies are judging them or sneering at them. I really don't think that's the case.

 

[HS Mom in NC]

No one addressed the issue of having huge groups that cannot possibly know who is new and who isn't.  How big are the groups you're talking about? Are you dealing with people on a scale of dozens or hundreds?  Since that was a major focus of my posts I'm interested in responses to it. 

[FloridaLisa]

No one addressed the issue of having huge groups that cannot possibly know who is new and who isn't.  How big are the groups you're talking about? Are you dealing with people on a scale of dozens or hundreds?  Since that was a major focus of my posts I'm interested in responses to it. 

 

If it's a church that's huge, there should be greeters at points of entry as well as a welcome desk. The welcome should not only get the new folks where they need to go but introduce them to a small group or someone that can get them integrated. 

 

If it's a huge homeschool group, the leaders should also have a structure in place to welcome new homeschoolers (new to homeschooling or new to the community) and get them connected to the group.  I see that as a huge purpose of part of the entire homeschooling umbrella organization -- get folks connected to community. 

 

Just speaking for myself, but I seek out more experienced homeschool moms because they are like my colleagues, but with years of experience. If I share a beginner story with you, it's likely because I want to know how you would have handled it or what I can do better. I don't want to be isolated to a bunch of people with kids exactly like mine and interests and experience exactly like mine. Heck, that's one of the main reasons I value homeschooling is that my kids' friends are not based on what grade my kid is in, and neither are mine. Is it really like that for more experienced homeschoolers? "Sorry, newbie, you don't meet my needs, go play with people your own age." Maybe that is why many of you feel that the homeschool culture is changing -- you're shutting down to those who would want and need mentors because it's somehow not your demographic and you feel there's no benefit in making friends, being a mentor for those of us coming up, and maybe trying to see the benefits of relationships like that.

 

 

Not in any of the groups I've been a part of.  I actually love to talk to new homeschoolers. I so value the one older and wiser mom who poured into a community of us younger moms and I remember dragging myself to her home every month for our refreshing support meeting. Sharing wisdom and experienced gained is part of what I love about this WTM group (and I miss some of those older homeschoolers who've gone on to other ventures). I don't see older moms shutting down the newer moms at.all. and I don't think that's at all part of the dynamic of the changing nature of homeschooling. I surely hope that's not anyone's experience. 

 

Lisa

[Tidbits of Learning]

I'm a homeschooling newbie, but I'd add that a lot of us secular homeschoolers use charter schools, which tend to come with much more of an instant community for kids and parents. As a result, we have much less need for support from the broader homeschooling community.

 

This is actually very common where I am.  I would say at least 1/4 to 1/3 of our co-op uses a charter (myself included).  And I will say that those that use the charter gravitate to each other as we have "school" in common.  I feel the "homeschoolers" in the co-op gravitate to each other as well.

 

Hm. Not around here. I think that must be on a state by state basis. None of the secular homeschoolers I know use a charter. In fact, everyone I've ever met schooling through a charter doesn't call themselves a "homeschooler." But, again, state by state...

 

Everyone here using the charter calls themselves a homeschooler.  I don't feel it is the same, but unlike some states the groups here do not discriminate against the virtual schoolers.  So I think to fit in most still call themselves homeschoolers and don't advertise that they use a charter when joining groups.

 

You know, the biggest change is probably the prevalence of online communities.  

 

Those who met for play dates once a week/month can now log on to their Facebook homeschool group, or here, or some similar type of page that provides a virtual community whenever you need it...

 

We are on year 6.  In the beginning, there were yahoo groups and sometimes conflict and confusion on posts.  Now, there are facebook groups for everything and a lot of momma drama and confusion over tone and context.  It is a hot mess.

 

I too can't get why people think co-ops are better.  Some of these teachers are just moms.  No special degree.  And the costs add up.  I would have to know going into the next year we were using co-ops and buy less curriculum...or I wouldn't have the money to do the co-op!

 

As I put my oldest in high school this year, I really wish I had back all that money we have spent on mom taught classes at co-op.  My oldest told me that co-op is nothing like being in a classroom.  We never did it for academics.  It was always purely social and well to keep them accustomed to a classroom setting, but now coming full circle and putting a child back in school...I really can look at co-ops without the rose-colored glasses.

 

What I've noticed since co-ops started becoming more popular is a rise in cliquishness that spills over into purely social events like the weekly park day. The kids who do CC together are their own little clique and leave out the other kids. It wasn't like that back when I started HSing in '06 and frankly I find it very discouraging because it's the kind of stuff I was hoping HSing would let us avoid.

 

They are very much their own little entities and their is more bullying and cliques than I would have dreamed possible in homeschooling.  I went to private and public school as a kid and I can say without a doubt that the 7th-9th grade girls at the co-op last year rivaled the "mean girls" of private school.  The number of kids in the co-op also rivals the number of kids that I went to private school with as well.  When you have 90 kids nursery-12th grade and 30+ teens deep in the throes of puberty...you get a lot of the issues that public/private school gets in middle/high school.  It was a lot of the reason that I felt that my oldest would get more out of school and more opportunities there as well.  

 

 

Here is the deal---co-ops are emulating school.  They have boards and leaders that are similar to school administration that makes the rules and bylaws.  They have teachers (moms) that are either really gung-ho about their classes or just putting in the time b/c they have to "volunteer" for their kid to participate.  So you have good and bad teachers.  You have kids who gravitate to each other and kids who stand out and don't fit in.  It is really not much different from school except you have momma drama to go with it and a lot more stress as you suddenly have to teach and help in classes.

If I could go back, I would look for just a support group to have fun with and not the whole day at classes structure.  But to be honest, that isn't even available here.  Almost everything is a co-op or CC.  There really is not anything that is just a support group to meet friends, destress, and unwind with your kids and other moms.  I never got to experience that type of homeschooling support and really feel that I could have used it.

I would love to have something fun and informal for my 6th and 2nd grade sons to do instead of a co-op or classes or things like that.    I would love to just get to talk to moms and chat while my kids hung out and played.  I am actually leaning towards not doing things that are "homeschool" only oriented.  We are doing 4H and Scouts and sports and I am sort of excited to not have to be on as a homeschooler all the time.  I want to be able to take off the homeschool mom hat and just be a mom to talk about regular old life and family some times.  

[MinivanMom]

No one addressed the issue of having huge groups that cannot possibly know who is new and who isn't.  How big are the groups you're talking about? Are you dealing with people on a scale of dozens or hundreds?  Since that was a major focus of my posts I'm interested in responses to it. 

 

The group I belonged to for many years had well over 200 families. At times it was closer to 300+. The smaller local group I've been trying out for the past 6 months is much smaller. There are only 134 families that currently belong.

 

[EmseB]

No one addressed the issue of having huge groups that cannot possibly know who is new and who isn't.  How big are the groups you're talking about? Are you dealing with people on a scale of dozens or hundreds?  Since that was a major focus of my posts I'm interested in responses to it. 

 

It doesn't really matter the size of the group if someone is obviously looking lost or confused about what to do or how to get started with things, which was your original example.

 

And it doesn't really matter the size of the group when it comes to introducing yourself to someone you don't know.  If they're new, they're new.  If they're not and you just don't know each other then that's okay too.

 

Again, it's just a general attitude of friendliness and kindness to strangers.  I've been to large groups settings where the attitude is overwhelmingly inclusive to newbies (and everybody else since, as you point out, it's hard to tell who is new), and I've been in large group settings where most people have their friends or cliques within the group and aren't concerned if anyone is new or looking to make friends (even if the newbie is willing to put up the social capital).  It's not the size of the group, and in fact, I don't know what exactly makes some welcoming and some less so.  I just like to be in the ones that are welcoming because along with being easier to be new in, once I'm "in" it's much easier for me to jump out of my comfort zone to welcome other new people if I know that's the established culture.

[EmseB]

Meh, the issue here is expectations. A home school group isn't a church...it's not even always a community. Some classes we're at are just loose groupings of families who share an interest in, idk, their kids playing soccer.

 

Unless someone has an actual job at a co-op or group of being the welcomer, and that person is standing their sneering at you, just assume that if people don't notice you, it's not out of malice.

 

I don't know how to rephrase this but I'll just restate that I'm saying this as a shy, introverted person :)

 

I definitely get this if we're talking a drop-off co-op or sports practices, and as an introvert, I've loved sitting by myself reading a book getting some peace and quiet while my kids practice soccer (I've also talked to other parents at practice too, it depends on the situation). But, I thought the thread was more talking about moms groups (talking at the park) or support groups, although I realized it's twisted to address several different kinds of groups since the beginning of the thread.

 

And, really, someone not noticing me is not a problem.  I don't feel like anyone owes me any type of social interaction.  Most times if I'm wandering around like an idiot trying to figure out where to take my kids for their thing or who I'm supposed to be talking to I'd rather people not notice that I have no idea what's going on.  I was responding to the idea expressed by Homeschool Mom in AZ that not only did someone notice that behavior but they felt it was a burden on them to compensate for that person's lack of social skills and were forced to condescend to help them out even though they shouldn't have to.  In that case, not noticing me would be a blessing!

[guilfordlake]

 

And, really, someone not noticing me is not a problem.  I don't feel like anyone owes me any type of social interaction.  Most times if I'm wandering around like an idiot trying to figure out where to take my kids for their thing or who I'm supposed to be talking to I'd rather people not notice that I have no idea what's going on.  I was responding to the idea expressed by Homeschool Mom in AZ that not only did someone notice that behavior but they felt it was a burden on them to compensate for that person's lack of social skills and were forced to condescend to help them out even though they shouldn't have to.  In that case, not noticing me would be a blessing!

 

Yes.

[Hedgehogs4]

Do you all live in warm climates? Where I am, weekly park days are impossible about five months of the year. So the homeschool groups look for an indoor location. If they are lucky they can find a nice welcoming church that doesn't charge too much. But then what do you do with the kids? You can't just let 30 kids "play" in a church. It's complete chaos and the church secretary complains about the noise. So the moms start bringing some crafts. And then someone suggests a book club. And all of a sudden it becomes a day full of activities rather than social time.

 

Anyway, I like the sound of what you're describing, but I understand why it tends to evolve into structure.

Having relocated from California to Virginia, this is exactly what I think might be the thing...The ladies in CA still do park days and in VA, we always have co-ops for the very reason mentioned above. I think it's regional. Those winter months can get long without support.

[mama27]

No, every day you go to a different co-op that teaches a different subject. Sometimes 2 different co-ops in a day.

 

 

Wow! That's crazy to me! I can't even imagine having the ENERGY to do that let alone the desire!

[mama27]

 

 

I have known so-called homeschoolers who are in multiple co-ops throughout the week, and don't do ANY teaching themselves.  Those are the ones that I just scratch my head and wonder why they aren't in a brick-and-mortar school.  Seems like it would be much less work.

 

 

That's exactly what I was just thinking.

 

[mama27]

 

 

 

Here is the deal---co-ops are emulating school.  They have boards and leaders that are similar to school administration that makes the rules and bylaws.  They have teachers (moms) that are either really gung-ho about their classes or just putting in the time b/c they have to "volunteer" for their kid to participate.  So you have good and bad teachers.  You have kids who gravitate to each other and kids who stand out and don't fit in.  It is really not much different from school except you have momma drama to go with it and a lot more stress as you suddenly have to teach and help in classes.

If I could go back, I would look for just a support group to have fun with and not the whole day at classes structure.  But to be honest, that isn't even available here.  Almost everything is a co-op or CC.  There really is not anything that is just a support group to meet friends, destress, and unwind with your kids and other moms.  I never got to experience that type of homeschooling support and really feel that I could have used it.

I would love to have something fun and informal for my 6th and 2nd grade sons to do instead of a co-op or classes or things like that.    I would love to just get to talk to moms and chat while my kids hung out and played.  I am actually leaning towards not doing things that are "homeschool" only oriented.  We are doing 4H and Scouts and sports and I am sort of excited to not have to be on as a homeschooler all the time.  I want to be able to take off the homeschool mom hat and just be a mom to talk about regular old life and family some times.  

 

 

This. Exactly this. This is why I really, really do NOT want to join a co-op and haven't for years. If I wanted to deal with all that I'd put my kids in school and be done with it.

[LaMere Academy]

And that's one of the big changes.  It used to be that new homeschoolers expected to introduce themselves to the group and initiate conversations with the people in the group.  Now most younger homeschool moms seem to expect it the other way around.  Most stand there silently waiting for a welcome wagon.  You can think that's for the better or for the worse, but it's definitely different than it used to be. I never ever ever ever expect anyone to initiate a conversation with me in any social situation ever, but then, I'm old.

 

A few weeks ago at the homeschool PE class I saw a woman with kid walk around sheepishly waiting for something to happen for her.   Everyone else was busy signing in, catching up with people they hadn't seen in a week, making sure the kids put their things nearby and had their water bottles, chased the preschoolers away from the pond, unloaded the curriculum and books they brought for someone else to browse through, etc.  There were probably 12-15 parents there.  I watched hover just outside the group her for about 5 minutes, and knowing she must be a new homeschooler, walked over and introduced myself, asked her if she was here for PE. I was most certainly not obligated to draw her in, I was going out of my way  to compensate for her.  It's not asking a lot of me.  Neither is expecting her to initiate and introduce herself on her own.   I hope she wasn't assuming we were all being cliquish. Everyone was just engaged in pleasantries with people they knew to different degrees.  About a quarter of them were new to the group but started a month earlier and none of them were being excluded.

 

One of the other new moms, someone else I had to introduce myself to because she did the same thing, walking around making eye contact, getting a smile in return but remaining silent, had been to another PE class earlier in the week at another location.  I overheard her saying to her son, " I see Trevor is completely ignoring you and acting like you're not even here after he spent so much time with you at Tuesday's class." Not only is she failing to teach her child to walk up to the kids in the group and introduce himself and ask their names like she should be doing, she's creating bitterness and resentment where it's unnecessary.  So Trevor can't play his friends that he already knows at this group and hasn't seen for a week because she doesn't understand the social norms?

 

Other new people knew to walk up, introduce themselves, ask questions and start conversations.

 

 

I guess I think differently, I think the group should make a new mom feel welcome. 

 

[swellmomma]

The group I belonged to for many years had well over 200 families. At times it was closer to 300+. The smaller local group I've been trying out for the past 6 months is much smaller. There are only 134 families that currently belong.

 

Holy crap! THe biggest group I have ever been a part of had about 40 families.  THe local support group to me, we have 12 families that regularly participate and another 1-2 that only part take in the fb group

[Jenny in GA]

You're all kidding right?  You aren't all actually expecting me (and the dozen to dozen and a half of the others like me) in the middle of conversations with someone else; in the act of directing/retrieving  preschoolers here and there and setting boundaries; in the act of returning and borrowing curriculum and discussing it with someone who asked to borrow it to browse through; unloading camp chairs, lunches, water bottles, play equipment; signing in; directing children to help the coach unload equipment and get in the correct lines based on age for warm ups; to not only do all of this which requires attention (I was was explaining to a newbie homeschooler what subject integration is and giving her several examples of it because we both got there a few minutes early and were engaged in conversation as the start time neared) but to immediately stop mid-conversation soon as a new person shows up and stands silently at a distance at a large park and draw them into the group every time. 

 

No, we're not expecting that at all.

 

Instead, we're expecting people who have never been to a place before, don't know anybody and are maybe even unsure where to go and what to do, to butt into your conversations, chase after you while you're retrieving preschoolers, and pester you when you're unloading equipment and signing in.

 

From your earlier post, it sounds like you saw and recognized these particular people looking new and confused and trying to make eye contact with people. That doesn't sound like "expecting a Welcome Wagon" to me. That sounds like someone doing the best they can, especially if everybody else is as busy and oblivious as you described.

 

Then you scorned them (at least in your own mind) for their lack of social skills and initiative and considered it a burden to do something to help them out.

 

Sheesh.   :huh:

[laughing lioness]

Around here, yes, there are drop-off co-ops (and they cost a pretty penny).  Some of them require parents to remain on the campus, but that's for liability issues more than for having moms help out.  Other co-ops are completely drop-off.

 

I have known so-called homeschoolers who are in multiple co-ops throughout the week, and don't do ANY teaching themselves.  Those are the ones that I just scratch my head and wonder why they aren't in a brick-and-mortar school.  Seems like it would be much less work.

 

And I don't begrudge co-ops.  I think they can offer a unique place in a homeschooler's life.  But I found out through trial-and-error that they really aren't for our family.

 

This year my kids are in a CC community (Foundations and Essentials), a small co-op at my house (Grammar of Poetry, culturual studies and bio lab), they are going to take 3 classes on line each. They also do an outsourced art class and ds is doing math tutoring.

 

Why bother going through all of the hard work of running them around, getting my house ready, getting on line? Because we are committed to a quality education, because I need to work at this point, because there are amazing opportunities that we can't replicate ourselves at home. I've been told I'm not a "real" homeschooler for the past several years because I outsource. Really? I teach my kids at home. I teach other homeschoolers for hours each week. I manage my children's private, rigorous, classical education. My dh and I spend HOURS each week tutoring and mentoring our kids (dh spent every Sat this fall -4-6 hrs each week working with ds on his chem lab). He is, at this very moment, showing the kids space exploration/.launch/ space missions info, having interrupted a Poetry lesson with me, as my kids write an Anapestic poem in tetrameter, imitating Byron's, "The Destruction of Sennacherib."

 

So, yeah. Maybe we no longer "count" as "real" homeschoolers. I'm fine with that. I'm fine with embracing every.single.resource I can get my hands on to educate and train my kids. 

[momacacia]

^^^ You are a rock star Laughing Lioness.

 

MIL, 30 year homeschool retiree, complained at her last visit to our house that she was disappointed in the hsers in their church because so many were doing K12 online for high school. I didn't ask what she was so specifically frustrated with, especially when she heavily used a private school for certain classes for all of her children (arts electives, physics, higher maths) and each of her kids received their high school diplomas from these schools, but I just brushed it off as another part of the Mommy Wars Homeschool Style. "They didn't do it exactly like we did it! God only knows how their children will come out! Not *real* homeschoolers!"

[Ellie]

^^^ You are a rock star Laughing Lioness.

 

MIL, 30 year homeschool retiree, complained at her last visit to our house that she was disappointed in the hsers in their church because so many were doing K12 online for high school. I didn't ask what she was so specifically frustrated with, especially when she heavily used a private school for certain classes for all of her children (arts electives, physics, higher maths) and each of her kids received their high school diplomas from these schools, but I just brushed it off as another part of the Mommy Wars Homeschool Style. "They didn't do it exactly like we did it! God only knows how their children will come out! Not *real* homeschoolers!"

 

I would be frustrated, as well, not that people weren't homeschooling the same way I had, but that they had chosen to do public-school-at-home instead of privately homeschooling. We early homeschoolers fought hard for the freedom to teach our children at home with as little intervention from public schools as possible, so to see people jumping onto the public-school-at-home bandwagon is disappointing. It's not unlike the way we fought for the freedom to have our babies on our own terms, as natural and unmedicated as possible, and we're now disappointed (and totally puzzled) at the number of women who actually choose to have c-sections just so their babies can be born on specific days. :-)

[JennyD]

I would be frustrated, as well, not that people weren't homeschooling the same way I had, but that they had chosen to do public-school-at-home instead of privately homeschooling. We early homeschoolers fought hard for the freedom to teach our children at home with as little intervention from public schools as possible, so to see people jumping onto the public-school-at-home bandwagon is disappointing. It's not unlike the way we fought for the freedom to have our babies on our own terms, as natural and unmedicated as possible, and we're now disappointed (and totally puzzled) at the number of women who actually choose to have c-sections just so their babies can be born on specific days. :-)

 

Interesting.  I've often heard a different version of the very same song: "We fought so hard for equal pay, equal access to higher eduction, and equal access to the professions.  Now here you are, with all of these opportunities, and you're just staying home with your kids.  We don't understand it at all, and it is so frustrating and disappointing."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[maize]

I would be frustrated, as well, not that people weren't homeschooling the same way I had, but that they had chosen to do public-school-at-home instead of privately homeschooling. We early homeschoolers fought hard for the freedom to teach our children at home with as little intervention from public schools as possible, so to see people jumping onto the public-school-at-home bandwagon is disappointing. It's not unlike the way we fought for the freedom to have our babies on our own terms, as natural and unmedicated as possible, and we're now disappointed (and totally puzzled) at the number of women who actually choose to have c-sections just so their babies can be born on specific days. :-)

 

But maybe these people have different reasons for educating their children at home, reasons that don't necessarily require minimal involvement with the public schools. I think the home educating community now is much more diverse than it once was, and includes a lot of people who are not ideologically opposed to the systems of public education. I've known families who brought their kids home because of bullying, because of mis-managed medical needs (type 1 diabetes), because of mid-year moves, etc. 

 

Personally I am glad to see a variety of educational options, including independent homeschooling, private co-ops, cyber schooling, flexible charter school programs, etc. I don't think old-fashioned homeschoolers have disappeared, they're still around. But the homeschooling community overall has grown much larger and more divers, so they may no longer be a majority in some places. I don't quite understand why someone who themselves values the freedom to birth or educate their children according to their personal priorities would be disappointed when other women also embrace that freedom but with different priorities.