Can somebody fight a valid will? And how to help a spouse through a parent's death.

[SebastianCat]

My IL's moved into assisted living earlier this year because of multiple issues with their physical and mental health, and DH has invoked a durable power of attorney on their behalf to handle their business affairs and pay their bills.   If you think your FIL is sick now, I would encourage you to make sure you have a durable POA (not the same as a healthcare POA) in place NOW and invoke it NOW.   It is a HUGE mountain of paperwork to wade through, and the sooner you have banks, utilities, insurance companies, etc., acknowledge your DH as having the right to access your FIL's accounts, the better.   It will make things much, much easier in the long run, especially given the fact that you anticipate issues after his death.

 

My IL's updated their wills and POAs before they moved into assisted living, with an eldercare attorney in the state in which they lived at the time.   Then they moved into assisted living in another state (closer to my SIL, who has medical POA).  When they moved, my DH consulted an eldercare attorney in their new state of residence, without MIL & FIL, to discuss the details.   That 2-hour consultation cost $400.    

 

Given your situation, I would think that a $400 consultation, while not cheap, might be well worth the expense to get solid advice on how to proceed.   

 

Sorry you're having to deal with this.   

[shawthorne44]

My maternal grandparents had a trust and it was a wonderful thing.  I third that suggestion.  

 

On the possessions, I suspect that a mere lock won't keep your BIL out.  If he is willing to steal from his father when he is alive what is breaking a window after he is dead?  Particularly, if BIL believes he is just getting what is due to him.  If it were me, I would plan on taking the next plane out, and hiring a moving company to clear out the house and then sort through the possessions at your house.  I would also delay informing BIl of the passing until after I was in the house.  

[Seasider]

Does the will specifically state that FIL knows he is leaving out BIL.

 

My understanding is that the way to make it clear that you intent for someone not to recieve anything is you must state that in the will. You could also state something like "BIL is to recieve $1.00 from my estate."

 

Wills should not be vague. You state FIL would like to leave something to BILs children, but you don't know who they are. Without knowing who the children are, if they are mentioned at all the will is really left open to be contested. You'd need a very good estate attorney to properly write a will around that issue.

 

Good points, all.

 

I do think you should figure out a way to name and/or number BIL's offspring. Who knows how many might turn up if there's a nebulous payday involved.

[Seasider]

Ah. I have no clue how this works, but it definitely sounds like something worth looking into. Right now Tony's main concern is being able to get to the sentimental things and save them before BIL could get there and "cash it out"; his grandmother's clothing, crucifixes, heirloom jewelry, certain instruments his father loved, etc.

 

Perhaps some of these valuables could be placed in a safety deposit box now? That would limit bil's access.

[Alessandra]

I haven't read all the posts, but you might want to google Samantha Perelman + will. She contested her grandfather's $800 million estate more than once and lost the final appeal. She is Ronald Perelman's daughter and so, had a top flight team of attorneys, but she still lost.

 

Much of the case was taken up with whether her uncle (who inherited) had undue influence over his father. One thing that influenced the decision were videos that the grandfather made stating his wishes.

 

So I am wondering if videotaped testimony from your FIL might be one way of proactively protecting yourself. Imo, your dh need not give anything to BIL's kids unless that was the wish of FIL. In my experience, being generous to a certain type of person can do more harm than good. It could open a can of worms if BIL tried to get the money from his kids, for example.

[mamakelly]

Does your FIL have a will or a living trust? You can have a will without a living trust. If FIL's estate is worth any money, he absolutely has to have a Living Trust, not just a will. A living trust will protect all the estate's assets from inheritance taxes. If your FIL dies without a living trust, you can't sell any real estate without going through probate, which takes a long time and will cost thousands. A reputable attorney who does living trusts will come to your house to write everything up, ours did. Once you have a legal living trust written, the ownership of all  bank accounts, property etc... must be changed to be owned by the trust. Our house is not owned by us, but by the G_____ family trust dated September whatever the date was.

 

I've walked this road before with both of my in-laws passing away. It was very difficult. What made it even more stressful was that they had a living trust drawn up, and signed, they just didn't "fund" it by changing ownership. Once we figured that out, we had to help MIL, who was very ill do all of that. It was stressful for her, and for us.

 

With a living trust, you set up a successor trustee. My dh was able to handle all of his parents affairs with a copy of the trust, a death certificate, and his id. No one else would have been able to take care of anything without those 3 documents. ((hugs)) BTDT, it's so hard.

[Cera]

I would make sure that it was properly drafted and signed (notarized).  It would probably be worth it to have another attorney look over it to confirm everything looks good.  After that I think I would look into whether a copy can be registered with the local court or some other official location.  If it can not I would suggest that FIL arrange for an attorney to hold the will and present it to the court upon his death so that your dh never has possession of it (much harder to argue it in that situation).  

[Orthodox6]

DH is listed on all of FIL's accounts, and has access to all papers. Is that good enough, or does he need legal business power-of-attorney as well (written)?

 

If "listed" means that he is a co-owner of an account, probably that suffices.  If "listed' just means that he has permission to write a check, I would investigate (with the lawyer) to make sure.  In either case, better to check!  :001_smile:

[gardenmom5]

But in your case, did the sibling have much to lose in contesting the will? If the person was written almost completely out of the will (gets $1), what threat would such a clause pose? It also must be state dependent.

If you read my post above, you know it's also finding a lawyer to take the case. If they aren't likely to be paid (re: win) they won't take the case. Unless a person is able to pay up front.

 

while a relative might be emotional, a lawyer will be more pragmatic.

 

we did give a copy of the trust, and he's used that in attempts for legal advice. (And threats to us.) So far, he's not obtained lawyer for this. A lawyer will look at the facts and see he has no case.

[gardenmom5]

Good points, all.

 

I do think you should figure out a way to name and/or number BIL's offspring. Who knows how many might turn up if there's a nebulous payday involved.

It can be limited to those known and legally recognized as offspring of your bil.

[gardenmom5]

Dblpst

[Annie G]

Since your FIL has lived there for a long time and his neighbors love him, make sure they have your contact info and let them know that in the event FIL has to be hospitalized or passes away, you would really appreciate them letting  know if they see suspicious activity.  That might be a great conversation to have with neighbors even now since  BIL might pull some shenanigans at any time. 

[Guest]

I am so sorry you have this to face.  Regardless of what happens with the will, you have been blessed with the shared love between your family and your FIL and no one can take that away...not even death.  

 

The main reason I chimed in here is not because i have great legal advice, but because one thing stood out to me about the way  your FIL has set up his will (if I am correct in my understanding).  The will as it stands makes your DH a gatekeeper (or maybe there is a better word)...makes him responsible for doling out cash to BIL and/or the offspring of BIL.   Your DH might be OK with this, and if so, you need not read any further on my post.  :0)

 

I would NOT be OK with being put in this position. It seems to set your DH and your family into a position of being everlasting pestered by BIL, and possibly more.  

 

I don't know about mechanisms for doing this, but it might be worth setting aside in the will some not-meaningless (eg. $1) to be held in trust and distributed once a year to your BIL, with a condition that he not pester your DH for money, or he loses that trust amount.

 

I know a family that had a responsible son and a waster daughter, to whom they had given an amount of money that was pretty much 40% of the remaining (expected) assets.  In their will, they allocated to her an additional amount to be held in trust and distributed as the NON FAMILY MEMBER trustees deemed fit, and the rest of the estate went to the brother.  I think they tried to put something in about her leaving her brother alone, but like I said, I don't know all the details.  They were just trying to be fair in distributing their assets while keeping the brother from having to be the moneybags they had become to the daughter. 

 

I would just hate it for  your DH to move into the role filled by your beloved FIL as re: BIL. 

 

[Corraleno]

Does your FIL have a will or a living trust? You can have a will without a living trust. If FIL's estate is worth any money, he absolutely has to have a Living Trust, not just a will. A living trust will protect all the estate's assets from inheritance taxes. If your FIL dies without a living trust, you can't sell any real estate without going through probate, which takes a long time and will cost thousands. A reputable attorney who does living trusts will come to your house to write everything up, ours did. Once you have a legal living trust written, the ownership of all  bank accounts, property etc... must be changed to be owned by the trust. Our house is not owned by us, but by the G_____ family trust dated September whatever the date was.

 

I've walked this road before with both of my in-laws passing away. It was very difficult. What made it even more stressful was that they had a living trust drawn up, and signed, they just didn't "fund" it by changing ownership. Once we figured that out, we had to help MIL, who was very ill do all of that. It was stressful for her, and for us.

 

With a living trust, you set up a successor trustee. My dh was able to handle all of his parents affairs with a copy of the trust, a death certificate, and his id. No one else would have been able to take care of anything without those 3 documents. ((hugs)) BTDT, it's so hard.

 

A correction to the bolded: A living trust will avoid probate costs but not inheritance tax. However, the current lifetime exemption is $5.3 million, so unless his assets exceed this, there should not be any inheritance tax.

[mamakelly]

A correction to the bolded: A living trust will avoid probate costs but not inheritance tax. However, the current lifetime exemption is $5.3 million, so unless his assets exceed this, there should not be any inheritance tax.

 

Oh, yes, my mistake!

[AimeeM]

A correction to the bolded: A living trust will avoid probate costs but not inheritance tax. However, the current lifetime exemption is $5.3 million, so unless his assets exceed this, there should not be any inheritance tax.

His assets totaled are a very decent amount, but definitely NOT $5 million :)

[AimeeM]

He is okay with it. He was with FIL when the will was drafted, and signed. He understands the position. I understand the position (should, for whatever reason, he isn't able to fill the role).

I am hoping that before the time comes, BIL will have a sudden revelation/change of heart and this entire mess will go away. 

I am so sorry you have this to face.  Regardless of what happens with the will, you have been blessed with the shared love between your family and your FIL and no one can take that away...not even death.  

 

The main reason I chimed in here is not because i have great legal advice, but because one thing stood out to me about the way  your FIL has set up his will (if I am correct in my understanding).  The will as it stands makes your DH a gatekeeper (or maybe there is a better word)...makes him responsible for doling out cash to BIL and/or the offspring of BIL.   Your DH might be OK with this, and if so, you need not read any further on my post.  :0)

 

I would NOT be OK with being put in this position. It seems to set your DH and your family into a position of being everlasting pestered by BIL, and possibly more.  

 

I don't know about mechanisms for doing this, but it might be worth setting aside in the will some not-meaningless (eg. $1) to be held in trust and distributed once a year to your BIL, with a condition that he not pester your DH for money, or he loses that trust amount.

 

I know a family that had a responsible son and a waster daughter, to whom they had given an amount of money that was pretty much 40% of the remaining (expected) assets.  In their will, they allocated to her an additional amount to be held in trust and distributed as the NON FAMILY MEMBER trustees deemed fit, and the rest of the estate went to the brother.  I think they tried to put something in about her leaving her brother alone, but like I said, I don't know all the details.  They were just trying to be fair in distributing their assets while keeping the brother from having to be the moneybags they had become to the daughter. 

 

I would just hate it for  your DH to move into the role filled by your beloved FIL as re: BIL. 

 

[StephanieZ]

Anyone can fight anything. If an attorney is willing to represent BIL, of course they could fight anything. The better the writing of the documents, the less chance that an attorney would choose to represent a losing side. 

 

I'd suggest ideally your dh sitting down with his dad's estate attorney sometime fairly soon to review things. At that time, his dad could also provide your dh with originals of all relevant documents. Be sure that he has POAs in place for when he gets ill but before he dies. That seems to be the danger time for bad acting family members to take advantage. 

 

In so far as setting up trusts for grandkids, no, you don't need the mom's permission. Not at all. He can set up trusts that benefit the grandchildren with your dh (or anyone else he chooses) as the trustee of the trust(s) until they reach adulthood (often age 25). The trust can be a global trust for the benefit of all the named and any unnamed grandchildren. In your situation, if it were me, I'd suggest two separate trusts -- one for your kids and another for BIL's kids. You don't really want to muddle up your kids' money with any money for BIL's kids given the mess. The BIL's kids trust(s) could be set up many different ways. I'd ask the estate attorney about it.

 

 

Alternately, of course your FIL is not obligated to leave diddly to BIL's kids. But, it might be a nice thing to do considering they lost the parent lottery. :) So long as your dh was trustee until the kids were at least adults and ideally at least 25, maybe 30 given the nature of their dad, as the longer you keep the $ out of their direct control, the longer you can prevent BIL from stealing it. I'd think it'd be a great thing to do. I wouldn't want my children to be treated preferentially over other grandchildren unless the benefactor/deceased had good personal reasons for leaving the others out of the will. In this case, it seems the grandchildren have already suffered by missing out on a relationship with a grandfather, having a crappy dad, and presumably have other limitations . . . Having a trust that could fund education, etc, for them could be life changing. (But, I'd probably talk to the estate atty about trying to set it up to preserve their access to gov't assistance for education assuming their current situation would enable them to get access to need-based aid at colleges . . . There are likely ways to keep the trust $$ out of their names in order to preserve their access to need-based aid and reserve the trust $$ for things that could actually make a difference . . .)

 

 

 

 

 

[Pawz4me]

Does your FIL have a will or a living trust? You can have a will without a living trust. If FIL's estate is worth any money, he absolutely has to have a Living Trust, not just a will. A living trust will protect all the estate's assets from inheritance taxes. If your FIL dies without a living trust, you can't sell any real estate without going through probate, which takes a long time and will cost thousands. A reputable attorney who does living trusts will come to your house to write everything up, ours did. Once you have a legal living trust written, the ownership of all  bank accounts, property etc... must be changed to be owned by the trust. Our house is not owned by us, but by the G_____ family trust dated September whatever the date was.

 

I've walked this road before with both of my in-laws passing away. It was very difficult. What made it even more stressful was that they had a living trust drawn up, and signed, they just didn't "fund" it by changing ownership. Once we figured that out, we had to help MIL, who was very ill do all of that. It was stressful for her, and for us.

 

With a living trust, you set up a successor trustee. My dh was able to handle all of his parents affairs with a copy of the trust, a death certificate, and his id. No one else would have been able to take care of anything without those 3 documents. ((hugs)) BTDT, it's so hard.

 

The bolded depends on state law.  Here real estate passes separately (outside of probate) unless it's willed to the estate.

 

[tex-mex]

Your FIL could set up a living trust and put his assets (cash, business, real estate, etc.) into it, with your DH listed as successor trustee. That way, he would still retain control over it in his lifetime, but after he dies your husband would take over and distribute the contents as your FIL wished. None of the assets in the trust would go through probate. He would still need a will, as a back up to cover anything that is not specifically in the trust, but presumably there would not be much outside of the trust, so not worth your BIL trying to challenge the will.

:iagree:

My in-laws did the same thing for our inheritance.

 

And they made sure my son inherited funds for college via a 529 account in a Special Needs Trust that has a trustee.  You do not need the permission of the mother.  Just the legal names of the children and last place of residence for a lawyer to verify who they are and track them down.

 

My son inherited a vacation home in the trust's name with the trustee taking care of the monthly/yearly costs from the account.  One thing I need to add if the OP's husband wants to, is they can set up a college 529 account in the children's names (with SSNs) and have OP's husband be the trustee.  Should for any reason the grandchildren choose not to use the college funds, the funds can only be used by a college or university.  And the funds can go to other family members (listed in the trust) or their children (i.e. great-grandchildren).  

 

Hope this helps! 

[umsami]

My parents have worked with two different attorneys to exclude my brother.  They drafted explicit language in their will regarding my brother having received his inheritance in their lifetime.   They also included language requiring tax returns to have been filed for the past three years in order to inherit (my brother tends not to file), etc.  There are legal issues on record regarding various things my brother has done to my parents.

 

Even with all this, we all still expect he'll fight it.  Will he succeed? Probably not, but he'll try.  He has nothing to lose if he can find an attorney willing to take his case for a percentage.  However, if he actually had to pay for an attorney, he wouldn't have the $.

[momacacia]

This may have been mentioned, but on the undue influence issue and capacity, there is wisdom in having a video taken of FIL reading this will/estate documents in the presence of his attorney (who is paid with a check from FIL's account, not paid for by your DH, e.g.) and a friend of FIL or other third party (without interests tied to you and your DH) present to attest on video the capacity of FIL to make the will and estate plan.

 

 

[AimeeM]

This may have been mentioned, but on the undue influence issue and capacity, there is wisdom in having a video taken of FIL reading this will/estate documents in the presence of his attorney (who is paid with a check from FIL's account, not paid for by your DH, e.g.) and a friend of FIL or other third party (without interests tied to you and your DH) present to attest on video the capacity of FIL to make the will and estate plan.

That is valid. Now, since he has regular medical care, will it matter that his physicians know he is of completely sound mind? He is. While they believe he may have prostate cancer, he has no mental health concerns, and still works full time teaching and at his music shop.

[Orthodox6]

That is valid. Now, since he has regular medical care, will it matter that his physicians know he is of completely sound mind? He is. While they believe he may have prostate cancer, he has no mental health concerns, and still works full time teaching and at his music shop.

The primary care physician may write a letter attesting to his or her assessment of mental competency and that letter placed in the legal files. Should the condition deteriorate, the physician letter should be updated.

 

It is more usual, I think, for a physician letter to be obtained to affirm mental incompetency. (We have such for my mother.) it seems logical that a letter affirming competency should be just as valid.

[Luckymama]

Your fil might also consider having the grandchildren's money in a trust (or two, separating the families) controlled by a corporate trustee which would take your dh out of the middle of a potential mess.

 

Corporate trustees (such as a bank) do require the trusts to be a certain amount and, of course, need to be paid from the trust.

 

It's quite common to have a corporate trustee run things for a potentially contentious situation.

[AimeeM]

Your fil might also consider having the grandchildren's money in a trust (or two, separating the families) controlled by a corporate trustee which would take your dh out of the middle of a potential mess.

 

Corporate trustees (such as a bank) do require the trusts to be a certain amount and, of course, need to be paid from the trust.

 

It's quite common to have a corporate trustee run things for a potentially contentious situation.

He isn't leaving any money to any of the grandchildren (ours included). 

I do want to clarify that he never said BIL was to have NONE of the money (from assets, or cash/banking/etc) - just that my DH is to determine when, where, IF, and how it is given.

I don't know the specifics, but he decided on no trustee. FIL is completely with it mentally, and is loved by all (other than BIL), but he can be a bit eccentric. He likes to leave these things "in the family"... and, honestly, he really, really hates to discuss this (with a passion). I don't think it's open to discussion with him again.

[StephanieZ]

I can't fathom inheriting money from someone with an indefinite permanent "take care of crazy BIL" implied expectation . . . I don't think that is doing your dh any favors AT ALL. I think that if your FIL leaves all the $ to your dh, then it is, at that moment, your dh's, and, presumably, he would not be likely to choose to give a big hunk of it to his nieces and nephews or his brother . . . as he has you and your own kids to care for. 

 

If I could influence things, and assuming that your FIL is not going to change things at this point, then I'd probably try to prepare your dh to plan to set aside some substantial portion of the estate (maybe 1/2 or 1/3) for his nieces and nephews and/or brother, and to put it aside in some sort of trust . . . otherwise, within a short period of time, that $$ is going to feel like your family's (as it should), and then it is just going to be a lifetime of guilt when, 10 years from now, those little nieces and nephew's need money for school, or are struggling in poverty, or need rehab . . . or are finally doing the right thing but really need a car . . . all those sorts of struggles that may be inevitable given their parent(s) . . . and either you are going to want to help OR not . . . but either way, having $ set aside from the get go is going to make that a lot less stressful for all of you. You don't even have to tell BIL about this (and I probably would NOT) money . . . but just know for your own sakes that the $ is set aside, and don't consider it your own resources. And, if, say, when all the kids are at least 30 years old, that money was never spent (say, because you could never track down the kids, or they were all whackadoodle or whatever), then you could plan to convert it to $ for your grandkid's education, or an eternal annual-extended-family-vacation fund some such lovely purpose. 

[AimeeM]

I can't fathom inheriting money from someone with an indefinite permanent "take care of crazy BIL" implied expectation . . . I don't think that is doing your dh any favors AT ALL. I think that if your FIL leaves all the $ to your dh, then it is, at that moment, your dh's, and, presumably, he would not be likely to choose to give a big hunk of it to his nieces and nephews or his brother . . . as he has you and your own kids to care for. 

 

If I could influence things, and assuming that your FIL is not going to change things at this point, then I'd probably try to prepare your dh to plan to set aside some substantial portion of the estate (maybe 1/2 or 1/3) for his nieces and nephews and/or brother, and to put it aside in some sort of trust . . . otherwise, within a short period of time, that $$ is going to feel like your family's (as it should), and then it is just going to be a lifetime of guilt when, 10 years from now, those little nieces and nephew's need money for school, or are struggling in poverty, or need rehab . . . or are finally doing the right thing but really need a car . . . all those sorts of struggles that may be inevitable given their parent(s) . . . and either you are going to want to help OR not . . . but either way, having $ set aside from the get go is going to make that a lot less stressful for all of you. You don't even have to tell BIL about this (and I probably would NOT) money . . . but just know for your own sakes that the $ is set aside, and don't consider it your own resources. And, if, say, when all the kids are at least 30 years old, that money was never spent (say, because you could never track down the kids, or they were all whackadoodle or whatever), then you could plan to convert it to $ for your grandkid's education, or an eternal annual-extended-family-vacation fund some such lovely purpose. 

DH definitely already plans to set some aside for the children, and probably even a pot aside for BIL should he NEED it (not "need" it like has in the past - I very much doubt DH would ever cut HIM a check, but I know he would be inclined to pay another on BIL's behalf directly). He does not see the money as his (DH) at all. We have helped BIL out before (out of our accounts), so I know DH would never just leave his brother in the dust (or BIL's children) - as angry as DH is about the way BIL has treated FIL, he is DH's only close relative, and my husband does love him very much (he doesn't admit it, but I can't imagine a person you didn't care deeply about would be able to upset your and disappoint you so greatly, right?).

 

In other words, if BIL wanted to go to rehab/college/whatever tomorrow, and came to DH for help, and didn't want FIL to know anything about it (but, say, FIL is alive and well) my husband would help.

 

I definitely agree with setting money aside, in other words, and he already planned to do so. Would it be better to be done as just a large chunk in an account (or whatever), and whatever isn't given to BIL, will eventually be divided up between BIL's children? Or separate accounts - one for BIL himself, and another one for his children?

 

My grandfather did something similar - he left all of his estate to charities and his children (5 children)... NO GRANDCHILDREN. He assumes that the parents will give anything leftover to their children. For some of us Grands, that means we will never see the inheritance (and that's fine by me - more money, more problems), and for other grandchildren that means exactly the opposite... but I have to say, by not included grandchildren, his will has had little headache.

[TechWife]

I haven't read all of the responses, so I might be repeating something. 

 

Why doesn't your FIL set up a trust for the grandchildren and appoint your husband trustee? It can be created now, or he can put instructions in his will to create it with a certain percentage of the estate or however he wants to designate it. That way, it is clearly done at his instruction and is less likely to cause trouble. 

 

ETA: You need to make sure that anything you need changed is done before your father in law needs pain medicine, because he won't be able to sign legal documents if he is "under the influence." 

[Joanne]

Ok. I read this thread much earlier today and it's been on my mind. I finally was able to put words around why.

 

You (and your DH) are trying to be reasonable, kind, fair. You are even trying to anticipate ways to communicate love/openness to people you've never met. I get it. It speaks to amazing and gracious hearts.

 

But...........

 

It is not going to work. No matter WHAT you decide, and what those specifics are, your BIL is not going to agree. He is going to see it through his habit of thinking; his habit of living. He is unwell, and there is no way to proactively avoid his drama. No matter how spot on, reasonable, fair, or equitable your specifics are.

 

You can't manage dysheatlh using a *reasonable* and healthy mind.

 

BIL is likely to harrass anyone who gets what he considers to be his money: you, DH, his own children. He won't see the actual history clearly, he won't care about the impact on his children or their mother(s).

 

So, my recommendation will be difficult since the topic is closed with FIL and your DH is such a sweetie. But my recommendation is stop trying to be fair to BIL/his children. Don't plan for or save anything for him/his kids. Pay the debts, settle the estate and disburse funds - but get over thinking that you will be able to communicate love to these disenfranchised grandchildren or prevent BIL meltdown.

 

[StephanieZ]

DH definitely already plans to set some aside for the children, and probably even a pot aside for BIL should he NEED it (not "need" it like has in the past - I very much doubt DH would ever cut HIM a check, but I know he would be inclined to pay another on BIL's behalf directly). He does not see the money as his (DH) at all. We have helped BIL out before (out of our accounts), so I know DH would never just leave his brother in the dust (or BIL's children) - as angry as DH is about the way BIL has treated FIL, he is DH's only close relative, and my husband does love him very much (he doesn't admit it, but I can't imagine a person you didn't care deeply about would be able to upset your and disappoint you so greatly, right?).

 

In other words, if BIL wanted to go to rehab/college/whatever tomorrow, and came to DH for help, and didn't want FIL to know anything about it (but, say, FIL is alive and well) my husband would help.

 

I definitely agree with setting money aside, in other words, and he already planned to do so. Would it be better to be done as just a large chunk in an account (or whatever), and whatever isn't given to BIL, will eventually be divided up between BIL's children? Or separate accounts - one for BIL himself, and another one for his children?

 

My grandfather did something similar - he left all of his estate to charities and his children (5 children)... NO GRANDCHILDREN. He assumes that the parents will give anything leftover to their children. For some of us Grands, that means we will never see the inheritance (and that's fine by me - more money, more problems), and for other grandchildren that means exactly the opposite... but I have to say, by not included grandchildren, his will has had little headache.

 

These decisions are too personal as well as too legal/technical for me to be able to advise you, but I'd really suggest investing time with the estate atty who has drawn up the documents. It will be time and money well spent.  

 

I think it is up to each person to choose how to disperse their estates. I think it really varies with the kids' and grandkids' ages and maturities, etc. I think it makes great sense to leave it all to the "grownups" if they are all responsible and financially savvy. If not, then I can see skipping a generation or at least splitting out a grandkid's share . . . If there are significant unevenness in family size, too, it may make sense to split out a grandkids' share, say if there are two children and one has a passle of cute grandkids you love but the other has remained childless . . . I'd personally rather "reward" the kid who gave me a passel of cute grandkids to love by setting aside a share for those grandkids instead of diluting the parent-of-grandkids' share. That's just because I personally would rather have any estate I left to benefit as many of my loved ones as possible, rather than making one childless (but very financially secure, especially due to the fact that s/he remained childless) kid "rich" and the other child-rich child of mine much less so (as their "share" would be presumably diluted by sharing with their many heirs . . .) That's just me, though. Others, who might be more supportive of a child-free lifestyle, might feel it more fair to give half to each child . . . but, me, I'd rather make it much easier on my kids and grandkids to ALL get higher education, travel a bit, have more freedom to choose to homeschool my future great-grandkids, etc . . . 

 

Anyway, there are 1001 facets of these decisions. I am struggling with the details for dh & my own estate/trust documents that we will be revising this year (as our oldest will be 18, freeing us to reorganize some things . . .) I could go crazy trying to plan for every possibility . . .OR, I could do what my mom (who was also an estate atty) generally did with each estate revision . . . set up a generally sound framework (say, trust until age 25) and then simply trust that her heirs were sensible and would make the best decisions in the future with whatever windfall occurred. I think in the end, that mentality makes the most sense if the heirs are generally healthy and sensible people. But, in your situation, you really need expert guidance!!

[RootAnn]

:grouphug:  I have little advice to give on the legalities. My dad died a couple years ago and the best thing DH did was to "be there" for me. Giving me time (away, sometimes), a shoulder to cry on, someone to talk to, sometimes to just be quiet with, and helping me with the "cleaning up the house" stuff. There was plenty of things he COULD help with when we were doing cleaning of my dad's stuff. With about half of the things he went through, it was obvious which pile it went into (trash, keep, set-aside-to-look-through). The other half, he automatically set aside for someone to look at. But that reduced what we (my mom & I) had to go through by half.

 

I know it helped me to know DH knew what I was going through because he'd lost his mom already. You, hopefully, won't have lost any of your close relatives by the time your FIL dies, so that will be a different case with you guys. Know that sometimes the second year is worse than the first. And, know that the legal things take YEARS to take care of. Things keep popping up years later. So, I think it is great that everyone is taking care of some of the paperwork now. Having Power of Attorney (Health & Financial), bills on autopay, and papers (stock certificates, financial papers, car title, tax records) all in one place was very helpful. Pre-planning funeral would have been nice, but we didn't get around to it. The work you do now will make things so much easier later - when all you want to do is grieve.

 

IMO, the "living trust" thing sounds like a good idea as does having the next-door lawyer call a security company to start guarding the house once FIL is no longer able to occupy the house (hospital, out-of-the-house hospice, or dead). I'd make sure to have the security company picked out & run them through the situation ahead of time -- paperwork on file & who will call them.

 

Again,  :grouphug:  to you for thinking about this ahead of time, helping your DH, and to your family as you think about the inevitable future.

[gardenmom5]

I agree with joanne that you can not reason with crazy - and given his history your bil will not be reasoned with.  he will only think of himself and what he thinks he is "owed".  

 

you must be proactive in preparing to protect YOURSELVES from his crazy meltdowns.  you must be aggressive in protecting yourselves as well.  things that may well make you uncomfortable - because you are decent and reasonable people  - sometimes you have to do what you have to do, even when we don't like it.   that means you must start right now, while your fil is still cognitively with-it.  and be expedient in getting all the steps finished. 

 

don't be surprised if your bil melting down starts the day he discovers your fil has died/entered a hospice/etc.

helping the other children with school, etc. (grown up expenses, don't allow them to just blow it like their father.) can still be on the table, but again, your bil will meltdown and depending upon how with it he is (some dysfunctional people bluster, but lack follow-through) you should have a better idea of his ability at follow through.

[Pawz4me]

I can't fathom inheriting money from someone with an indefinite permanent "take care of crazy BIL" implied expectation . . . I don't think that is doing your dh any favors AT ALL

 

I agree.

 

My aunt put her oldest daughter in the same situation.  The other three siblings all had/have issues -- substance abuse, mental illness, etc.  So aunt left everything to her oldest (very stable) DD with instructions to take care of the rest of them.  It has been truly awful for my cousin to deal with.  Like your DH, she very much wants to do the right thing.  But putting that burden on her was a horribly selfish thing for my aunt to do, I think.  Last I heard she was working with her attorney to set up trusts to be administered by a corporate trustee so she can be done with it.