What does your faith or belief system teach about suffering?

[speedmom4]

I've been noticing on recent threads that many people have a crisis of faith or leave their faith all together when they personally experience suffering. It has caused me to wonder what different faith and belief systems teach? I'm particularly interested in learning what different faiths teach not necessarily what personal beliefs individuals hold. For example there seems to be a difference in how Catholics and some Protestant denominations see suffering. I would love to hear from those that are Jewish, Muslim, LDS, UU, Reformed, Eastern Orthodox, Quaker, Hindu, etc. Really I'm interested in any religion or belief system.

 

TIA,

Elise in NC

[Pamela H in Texas]

Jehovah's Witness:

 

Why So Much Suffering:

http://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/wp20130901/why-suffering/

 

The End of Suffering:

http://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/wp20130901/the-end-of-suffering/

 

There are also many scriptures and articles that discuss coping with suffering of all different sorts.  Some are more general while others are more specific.  

[speedmom4]

I like this topic btw. So I'm bumping it.

 

Interested to hear other perspectives.

I'm super interested to hear other perspectives as well. I'm naturally curious what others believe.

 

Elise in NC

[Rosie_0801]

It's inevitable, so we don't need to go looking for it!

 

Mostly what Sadie said. Suffering is part of the human experience and so is dealing with it. 

 

I've been told I ought to see a counsellor. I certainly don't need one to help me with acceptance, because I'm pretty good at acceptance. I've had a lot of practice. So, these people who tell me that must want me to go to learn how to stop feeling pain. Now if I learn how not to feel pain about things that ought to make me feel pain, haven't I just broken myself? Haven't I just made myself *less* healthy than I am now, not more?

[texasmama]

Non denominational Christian

 

God is in it with you. 

 

This life is not the only one or the main one.  It's just the one that we know now. 

 

God views death very differently than we view it.

 

 â€œI have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.† John 16:33 (NIV)

[maize]

Here is one LDS perspective:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1989/04/adversity-and-the-divine-purpose-of-mortality?lang=eng&query=suffering

 

In general, I would say that we believe mortality is meant to be a period of trial and testing; this is something we each agreed to in our pre-mortal existence when we made the choice to come to earth and participate in a mortal experience. In the end, all suffering may be swallowed up through the atonement and mercy of Jesus Christ.

[Mrs Mungo]

I've been noticing on recent threads that many people have a crisis of faith or leave their faith all together when they personally experience suffering. It has caused me to wonder what different faith and belief systems teach? I'm particularly interested in learning what different faiths teach not necessarily what personal beliefs individuals hold. For example there seems to be a difference in how Catholics and some Protestant denominations see suffering. I would love to hear from those that are Jewish, Muslim, LDS, UU, Reformed, Eastern Orthodox, Quaker, Hindu, etc. Really I'm interested in any religion or belief system.

Have you readThe Brothers Karamazov? It is always what I think of in discussions about suffering.

[texasmama]

I've been told I ought to see a counsellor. I certainly don't need one to help me with acceptance, because I'm pretty good at acceptance. I've had a lot of practice. So, these people who tell me that must want me to go to learn how to stop feeling pain. Now if I learn how not to feel pain about things that ought to make me feel pain, haven't I just broken myself? Haven't I just made myself *less* healthy than I am now, not more?

People often say this because they are not comfortable with the pain of others, particularly if it lasts "too long".  I think, in the US, "too long" is much over a month or so.  By the six month mark, you get labeled as depressed or stuck and in need of professional help.

 

But a counselor should not try to help you stop feeling pain.  A counselor would be more likely to provide empathy and support for the individual grief journey you are on without the judgment or unhelpful advice that often  comes from the general public, such as to go to counseling, ironically.

[Ausmumof3]

It's inevitable, so we don't need to go looking for it!

 

Mostly what Sadie said. Suffering is part of the human experience and so is dealing with it.

 

I've been told I ought to see a counsellor. I certainly don't need one to help me with acceptance, because I'm pretty good at acceptance. I've had a lot of practice. So, these people who tell me that must want me to go to learn how to stop feeling pain. Now if I learn how not to feel pain about things that ought to make me feel pain, haven't I just broken myself? Haven't I just made myself *less* healthy than I am now, not more?

Hugs, Rosie.

 

Grief is a long process and experiencing the pain is better than shutting it off. It's just that sometimes other people want us to get on with life.

[Ausmumof3]

Small offshoot of Christianity.

 

Suffering is a consequence of sin.

But Individual suffering is not necessarily related to individual sin. (Book of job)

Some individual suffering is for personal growth.

Sometimes we make choices that increase our suffering for Gods sake - it is doing what Christ did for us.

In the next life there will be no more suffering.

 

This is what I basically read in the bible. This is probably the number one subject that makes me question my beliefs though.

[Crimson Wife]

I read a powerful book called "Disability and the Gospel" by Rev. Micheal Beates shortly after my little one was diagnosed with autism. Rev. Beates is a Reformed Protestant while I'm a Roman Catholic so presumably we disagree on many theological issues. But there was a beautiful quote about how God uses suffering the way a sculptor uses a chisel to carve a statue from a block of marble. That really resonated with me and it is an image that I hold fast to when I'm going through a rough patch.

[SKL]

I don't really have a firm grasp on it, but here's some of the thought process.

 

Suffering is caused by wanting things to be different than they are.  And, suffering is caused by viewing yourself as different from the world around you, different from the people you deal with etc.

 

So, you would never have hurt feelings, anger, shame etc. if you didn't see the other guy as different / separate from you.  And hoarding or worrying about your wealth instead of giving freely will prevent you from receiving bounty that would naturally come your way.

 

You wouldn't fear dying or grieve the dead if you accepted that it was all just part of the whole experience.

 

Some of the physical suffering is also caused by trying to do things your way instead of "the" way.  For example, eating in a way you know is not so good is going to hurt you in some way or other.  Sleeping on a schedule that isn't ideal for you is going to cause problems.  Rushing things at the expense of your body is going to bite your butt.  Etc.

 

Of course even if one could rise above all of that (which I don't believe humans can, though it's worth a try), there would still be pain and suffering.  So I dunno.  I like it better than the other explanations I've seen, though.

[TianXiaXueXiao]

I am an Orthodox Christian and I also have my own view on suffering as essential, however, I do not know if my thinking stands to reason from an Orthodox perspective. Please be merciful with me as I attempt to explain what I mean by suffering being essential. Jesus Christ gave us two commandments: Love God and Love One Another. From the face of it, these may seem like easy commandments to keep. In practice, however, they are possibly the two most difficult to keep. It is easy to love our beloveds-our family, friends, and people we cherish. We are not called to love only those we care about, however. We are called to love everyone, including our enemies and perfect strangers.

 

Then we have loving God. How do we do this? What does it look like? Is it just me alone on my prayer rug being grateful for yet another moment in His glorious Creation, having been given another day to work out what it means to be a child of God? Is it just me sitting here saying God is good because I have witnessed good things happen or because of all the beauty that exists in the world?

 

I think it is because of our fallen nature that we are essentially a self-absorbed and selfish race of creature. We look at the world in terms of "Us and Them" in all facets of life, from religion to social class, from geographical locale to simple preferences and tastes. If one can come up with a distinction in any area of life, we will find a way to take sides and form teams to rally around it (parenting philosophies, home school methodologies, breast or bottle, SAHM or Professional Mom, everything can be made divisive!) We naturally draw lines and separate ourselves from our fellow brothers and sisters.

 

So where does suffering come into this? Suffering is the one avenue to the heart that will force it OPEN like nothing else on this earth. Despite all the perfectly good (albeit far from our everyday experience and practice) reasons to love one another (not just our "own"), let's face it, we rarely bother without suffering. When tragedies happen, whether wrought by human hands or natural forces beyond our control, we are suddenly compelled to embrace our brothers and sisters in their suffering. We get together and send packages to soldiers we don't even know. We donate our hard-earned cash to organizations that will alleviate the despair for hurricane survivors on the other side of the country. We send birthday cards and presents to the little boy who wants nothing more than to receive such greetings while he bravely battles a terrible disease. We pray. We send good thoughts. We acknowledge a life we never considered. In short, we stop being so self-focused, and we answer the call to love one another. Finally. Loving one another is how we love God, or at least it is how we *show* we love God, and I am not sure I would want to see what kind of world we would live in without suffering.

 

Perhaps there will come an age, when we humans do learn how to love, really love our brothers and sisters (and thereby loving God) without suffering, and should that age arrive, we will find out if this great mystery of pain and suffering was really the best thing that ever happened to us. 

 

Suffering opens hearts. You suffer and it touches someone and makes possible for them what wasn't possible a split second ago. It brings forth the flow of love and even if you never saw it or knew it, God saw and He knew and was loved through you.

 

These are just the thoughts I have come to from struggling with the mystery of suffering and during my own dark nights of the soul. It makes the world much more bearable under this light. For me.

 

For a more Orthodox Christian take on it, here is a link. http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/suffering

 

[Incognito]

This book has really stuck with me through the years:

 

http://www.amazon.com/In-Likeness-God-Fearfully-Wonderfully/dp/0310257425/ref=pd_sim_b_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=0CTJC99SC3DB886D9DN0

 

The idea that pain warns us and protects us (leprosy patients don't feel pain and are then injured by that).  

[milovany]

Father Stephen writes an Eastern Orthodox blog called "Glory to God for All Things" and he sometimes addresses the topic of suffering.  Here are some examples -- I especially appreciate how he describes a "one-story" universe rather than a "two-story" one (meaning life isn't separated into life-now-on-earth and a-different-life-in-heaven-later -- it's all the same life).

 

ETA: I see TWells posted some EO thoughts while I was typing, so I'll let her writing stand and not try to explain more. 

[sbgrace]

I think there will be variation even within Christian sects. I would expect a Calvinist would have a different theology surrounding this compared to an Arminian based denomination for example. 

 

I was taught that suffering doesn't come from God. God can bring good out of situations, but that doesn't mean He willed the situation. FWIW, I think people Christian or not, can sometimes find some good or perhaps "it made me what I am" out of suffering. It's a human resilience thing.

 

Doesn't the faith crisis often come from if God is both good and powerful he would stop the horrific suffering of innocents. So he's either not all good or not all powerful, or He just doesn't exist at all.  Is that something like it? I don't say that lightly. I don't want to minimize the kind of pain that would make a follower fall away from God.

 

I don't think the world could be made in any way other than it is. Sometimes I think, though, that I wouldn't have made the world knowing the pain that would be experienced by even one mistreated child. Of course we humans keep having children knowing the world is evil, so....oh well. I see through limited human eyes (see through a glass darkly).

 

My personal hope is that all will be made absolutely right in the end. And it will finally be truly good for all His creatures.

[Jasperstone]

Just popping in to say that I love this quote-

“Without suffering, there'd be no compassion.â€

Not sure who said it. But it resonates with me.

[Guest]

Sadie, before I write out a response, I wanted to ask if you have ever read Frankl's book 'Man's Search for Meaning'?

 

This subject is pretty close to the bone for me. It was part of my becoming Orthodox--I realized that in my search for understanding about suffering, I kept running into Catholic and Orthodox writings as the ones that resonated.

 

However, I want time to reflect before I write, and anyway, I can't type put a long response on my phone. 😊

[Guest]

NM--the dreaded DoublePost.  :0|

 

 

[TianXiaXueXiao]

Could any EO lady give me a brief explanation of how EO thoughts are applied to suffering on an industrial scale ?

 

I can almost understand the God chiselling, or working to help us develop empathy thing on an individual level, although I experience that as cruel, not loving, but it all falls apart for me when I think Holocaust or genocide.

 

If you'd rather not, that OK too.

 

And I promise I just want to hear. I won't even post in response, except to say thanks.

 

I am not sure if much of a distinction would be made between large scale suffering and that which takes place on the personal level, other than to say that it is "we" who usually allow industrial scale atrocities to get to the magnitude that they reach (particularly in events like the Holocaust) before we finally do something to stop it!  Again, I am no Orthodox theologian by any means, and what I say may not be the witness of the Church, however, from my own feeble understanding, I will attempt to answer your question.

 

As Milovany stated up thread, there is the view of the "one-story" universe which encapsulates all life from time beginning to time eternal. This is God's story. In His story, we and all of Creation belong to Him. When he brings his children home to Heaven, they are safe in the place of the most high. There is no death, no illness, no suffering to overcome. Using your example of the Holocaust, the millions who were sent to His immediate presence through what we experienced as one of the greatest evils ever recorded on the face of the earth, were redeemed by God and welcomed into His healing, loving, embrace. Their torture ended the moment they beheld the face of God.  If we view such atrocities through the framework of the Beatitudes, we are told that such suffering is not without meaning and purpose:

 

Take the 8 beatitudes from Matthew 5. Blessed are..

 

        ....the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven.

        ....those who mourn: for they will be comforted.

        ....the meek: for they will inherit the earth.

        ....those who hunger and thirst for righteousness: for they will be filled.

        ....the merciful: for they will be shown mercy.

        ....the pure in heart: for they will see God.

        ....the peacemakers: for they will be called children of God.

        ....those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

 

*We* witnessed the torture, mutilation, starvation, annihilation, and suppression of Holocaust victims as unthinkably cruel and horrendous (as we should). Evil is what it is. There is no making it pretty. However. We hear of it and *our* hearts are opened. On this large of a scale, the entire world opened their hearts and they remain open for as long as we remember. We love. We mourn. Hopefully we learn and change. We who also belong to God, answer his call to love. Some might say, isn't it just cruel to treat humans this way? To make them suffer and witness others so that they will love? I don't think it is God that makes us suffer, but our fallen selves that make us needful of it in order to love. The answer is that we may view it this way only if we truly think we only belong to ourselves and not to God. For those of us who do believe, we know (not really because it's beyond our ken, but we know what is hoped for) what our reward will be in heaven, when we have finally shaken free from our fallen selves.

[blondeviolin]

Here is one LDS perspective:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1989/04/adversity-and-the-divine-purpose-of-mortality?lang=eng&query=suffering

 

In general, I would say that we believe mortality is meant to be a period of trial and testing; this is something we each agreed to in our pre-mortal existence when we made the choice to come to earth and participate in a mortal experience. In the end, all suffering may be swallowed up through the atonement and mercy of Jesus Christ.

Here's another LDS perspective: https://www.lds.org/prophets-and-apostles/unto-all-the-world/why-do-we-have-trials?lang=eng

 

I will say, I personally disagree with the idea that suffering is only a consequence of sin. Of course sin brings us sadness and sorrow. However, I can think of many instances where a person experienced suffering without sinning - Jesus being the ultimate example here.

[Ausmumof3]

Here's another LDS perspective: https://www.lds.org/prophets-and-apostles/unto-all-the-world/why-do-we-have-trials?lang=eng

 

I will say, I personally disagree with the idea that suffering is only a consequence of sin. Of course sin brings us sadness and sorrow. However, I can think of many instances where a person experienced suffering without sinning - Jesus being the ultimate example here.

That is why I added that individual sin isn't the cause of individual suffering. Rather suffering is a result of people being separated from God by sin. Sorry if I didn't make that clear enough.

[blondeviolin]

That is why I added that individual sin isn't the cause of individual suffering. Rather suffering is a result of people being separated from God by sin. Sorry if I didn't make that clear enough.

So you're saying Jesus was separated from God by sin?

 

Personally, I do agree that sin always results in sorrow and suffering. I don't agree that all suffering happens as a result of sin.

 

Without true sorrow, we would not be capable of recognizing true happiness. I also believe that we need to prove ourselves through our trials and this earthly experience to truly grow and learn. While trials are difficult and can test our faith, we need not pass through that misery on our own. Jesus suffered all pains - pains and suffering inflicted by sin, but also pain and suffering not inflicted by sin.

[Ausmumof3]

Jesus suffered for our sins not his own I guess. I'm not super clear about this. I also don't have an answer as to why animal suffering is inherent in creation.

[speedmom4]

Wow! Thank you all so much! I appreciate each and every person who took the time to answer.

 

I find the EO perspective on suffering very much resonating with me. I am a Catholic revert but I was a Protestant (Assemblies of God & nondenominational) for 15 years. I find the Catholic view on suffering helpful as well. I'm no expert on Catholicism but I'll give a short stab at it. It seems that we become more like Christ when we suffer. To take up his cross and follow him means enduring suffering along with him. Instead of trying to alleviate the suffering we should rejoice because we are becoming more like Him. I read St. Therese of Liseaux's autobiography, The Story of a Soul, and was astounded with her reaction when she realized she was dying. That has stuck with me.

 

I recently read a blog post about suffering from a Calvinist perspective and to be completely honest I was surprised. I am not very familiar with Calvinist doctrine but basically the writer came to the conclusion that nothing happens outside of God's will so therefore any suffering that happens is all part of God's plan. She really lost me there. I absolutely cannot fathom a God who has a plan that involves children in sexual slavery. I hope a Calvinist can chime in and help explain this a little. I realize that I don't have the full picture and may not fully understand. I certainly don't want a debate just to understand it better.

 

Thank you all!

 

Elise in NC

[speedmom4]

It's inevitable, so we don't need to go looking for it!

 

Mostly what Sadie said. Suffering is part of the human experience and so is dealing with it.

 

I've been told I ought to see a counsellor. I certainly don't need one to help me with acceptance, because I'm pretty good at acceptance. I've had a lot of practice. So, these people who tell me that must want me to go to learn how to stop feeling pain. Now if I learn how not to feel pain about things that ought to make me feel pain, haven't I just broken myself? Haven't I just made myself *less* healthy than I am now, not more?

Thank you so much, Rosie, for sharing your perspective. It's easy to talk about "theories" about suffering but hearing from someone who is actually in the trenches is so valuable.

 

Elise in NC

[speedmom4]

Have you readThe Brothers Karamazov? It is always what I think of in discussions about suffering.

No but my dd read this recently. I'll have to see if she left it here before leaving for college this week.

 

Thanks,

Elise in NC

[speedmom4]

I read a powerful book called "Disability and the Gospel" by Rev. Micheal Beates shortly after my little one was diagnosed with autism. Rev. Beates is a Reformed Protestant while I'm a Roman Catholic so presumably we disagree on many theological issues. But there was a beautiful quote about how God uses suffering the way a sculptor uses a chisel to carve a statue from a block of marble. That really resonated with me and it is an image that I hold fast to when I'm going through a rough patch.

 

I really like this image as well. Thank you for sharing.

 

Elise in NC

[speedmom4]

I am an Orthodox Christian and I also have my own view on suffering as essential, however, I do not know if my thinking stands to reason from an Orthodox perspective. Please be merciful with me as I attempt to explain what I mean by suffering being essential. Jesus Christ gave us two commandments: Love God and Love One Another. From the face of it, these may seem like easy commandments to keep. In practice, however, they are possibly the two most difficult to keep. It is easy to love our beloveds-our family, friends, and people we cherish. We are not called to love only those we care about, however. We are called to love everyone, including our enemies and perfect strangers.

 

Then we have loving God. How do we do this? What does it look like? Is it just me alone on my prayer rug being grateful for yet another moment in His glorious Creation, having been given another day to work out what it means to be a child of God? Is it just me sitting here saying God is good because I have witnessed good things happen or because of all the beauty that exists in the world?

 

I think it is because of our fallen nature that we are essentially a self-absorbed and selfish race of creature. We look at the world in terms of "Us and Them" in all facets of life, from religion to social class, from geographical locale to simple preferences and tastes. If one can come up with a distinction in any area of life, we will find a way to take sides and form teams to rally around it (parenting philosophies, home school methodologies, breast or bottle, SAHM or Professional Mom, everything can be made divisive!) We naturally draw lines and separate ourselves from our fellow brothers and sisters.

 

So where does suffering come into this? Suffering is the one avenue to the heart that will force it OPEN like nothing else on this earth. Despite all the perfectly good (albeit far from our everyday experience and practice) reasons to love one another (not just our "own"), let's face it, we rarely bother without suffering. When tragedies happen, whether wrought by human hands or natural forces beyond our control, we are suddenly compelled to embrace our brothers and sisters in their suffering. We get together and send packages to soldiers we don't even know. We donate our hard-earned cash to organizations that will alleviate the despair for hurricane survivors on the other side of the country. We send birthday cards and presents to the little boy who wants nothing more than to receive such greetings while he bravely battles a terrible disease. We pray. We send good thoughts. We acknowledge a life we never considered. In short, we stop being so self-focused, and we answer the call to love one another. Finally. Loving one another is how we love God, or at least it is how we *show* we love God, and I am not sure I would want to see what kind of world we would live in without suffering.

 

Perhaps there will come an age, when we humans do learn how to love, really love our brothers and sisters (and thereby loving God) without suffering, and should that age arrive, we will find out if this great mystery of pain and suffering was really the best thing that ever happened to us. 

 

Suffering opens hearts. You suffer and it touches someone and makes possible for them what wasn't possible a split second ago. It brings forth the flow of love and even if you never saw it or knew it, God saw and He knew and was loved through you.

 

These are just the thoughts I have come to from struggling with the mystery of suffering and during my own dark nights of the soul. It makes the world much more bearable under this light. For me.

 

For a more Orthodox Christian take on it, here is a link. http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/suffering

 

This really resonates with me. I'm so glad you shared this!

 

Elise in NC

[speedmom4]

I'm Catholic. I have heard of "offering up suffering." I'm not even totally sure I understand it but I like to think when I'm suffering I can ask God to use that pain on someone else's behalf. Okay now I sound crazy. I don't know how to explain. But I also think sometimes it's a time to reflect on how blessed I am that I am not suffering more or that I don't suffer daily.

 

No, you don't sound crazy!  I'm Catholic as well and it's difficult to describe what "offering something up" actually means. I get it.

 

Elise in NC

[maize]

Here's another LDS perspective: https://www.lds.org/prophets-and-apostles/unto-all-the-world/why-do-we-have-trials?lang=eng

 

I will say, I personally disagree with the idea that suffering is only a consequence of sin. Of course sin brings us sadness and sorrow. However, I can think of many instances where a person experienced suffering without sinning - Jesus being the ultimate example here.

I agree with you that suffering is not necessarily related to sin. It seems to me it is meant to be a part of our mortal existence, our opportunity to experience the opposition in all things and to taste the bitter along with the sweet. If we let it, suffering can refine us and bring us closer to God.

 

Much suffering in the world is the direct result of sin, often the sins of one person or group of people as they inflict suffering on others. Horrors such as the Holocaust would fall under this category. As I see it, the place of God in such situations is simply that he allows human beings to exercise free will, including causing suffering to others.

[Crimson Wife]

I think there will be variation even within Christian sects. I would expect a Calvinist would have a different theology surrounding this compared to an Arminian based denomination for example. 

 

I was taught that suffering doesn't come from God. God can bring good out of situations, but that doesn't mean He willed the situation. FWIW, I think people Christian or not, can sometimes find some good or perhaps "it made me what I am" out of suffering. It's a human resilience thing.

 

Doesn't the faith crisis often come from if God is both good and powerful he would stop the horrific suffering of innocents. So he's either not all good or not all powerful, or He just doesn't exist at all.  Is that something like it? I don't say that lightly. I don't want to minimize the kind of pain that would make a follower fall away from God.

 

I don't think the world could be made in any way other than it is. Sometimes I think, though, that I wouldn't have made the world knowing the pain that would be experienced by even one mistreated child. Of course we humans keep having children knowing the world is evil, so....oh well. I see through limited human eyes (see through a glass darkly).

 

My personal hope is that all will be made absolutely right in the end. And it will finally be truly good for all His creatures.

 

The way that I look at it is that God sees everything on so much larger a scale than any individual human. He knows everything that has happened, is happening, and ever will happen, everywhere, to everyone. When I watch a really good chess player, sometimes I wonder why the player is making the moves that he/she does, but then way later in the game it becomes obvious why. There was a plan all along but I just couldn't see it at the time. If I have so much difficulty seeing the plan in a relatively simple game with only 32 pieces, each of which can only do a few things, imagine how much more complex things are when looking on an eternal scale with billions upon billions of people.

[Erin]

I see a couple of sides to this.

 

--Suffering is vital to the development of a strong body of believers, IMO.  

We are to be the light of Christ in the world.  In order to do that we need to be compassionate and connected to our fellow human beings and, unfortunately, suffering (both our own and that of those around us) seems to be one of the strongest ways to develop compassion.  

 

--This world is not my home.  A two-year who just burned themselves on a stove can not see past their own pain.  But as adults, we have a different perspective and while we see that pain as being hurtful, and we want to comfort, we also know that it'll pass fairly quickly.  

God is the alpha and the omega.  He has the perspective of eternity, which means even an entire human lifetime of pain and agony (which even Job didn't have) is nothing more than a 2 year old's burnt fingers.  He wants to comfort us and ease our heartaches, but doesn't see it in the same way we do.  

[Alexigail]

Wow, this got long! I've never posted so frankly about my experiences, so I hope it makes sense.

 

Just to add to what others have already said:  In the EO Chuch, we consider not only God's will but the will of human beings and the will of Satan.  When our will aligns with God's, good things happen.  When our will aligns with Satan's, the result is human suffering.  I don't see suffering as a punishment, but as a reminder to look to my motives.  Christ gave his apostles the power to bind and to loose, not just on Earth, but for eternity.  What that says to me is that what we do on earth matters. There are eternal consequences, both for good and for evil. We're not just walking around, subject to God's whims.

The 20th century was full of atrocities, not jut the Holocaust, but in the USSR, Vietnam and many other places. It does seem trite to say "well God used that suffering for good" when it's obvious these things are senseless and unnecessary. I think sometimes our will just aligns with Satan's will and then horrible, terrible things happen.  It's hard for me to imagine a loving God who is capable of preventing these things but doesn't, until I remember that he didn't spare himself any of that pain.  Crucifixion is one of the most painful and humiliating deaths a person can suffer.  He doesn't spare himself suffering when He can bring about the salvation of others. I don't understand atrocities or why they're not prevented, but I do think that they are easier to see than all of the heroic, compassionate, salvific things that happened during those times. God's intention isn't to prevent all suffering (though I do believe that He prevents a great deal), but to bring about the salvation of as many people as He possibly can.

I really like what other's have said about a "one-story world" and I'm going to consider that.  It never sits well with me when people (myself included) "put a spin on suffering" to make it into something wonderful. If we see death as an ending or this life as finite, suffering would indeed be pointless and the idea of a loving God would have no context.  It's interesting to me that Orthodoxy is a lot like Buddhism in that they both believe that attachment to the world leads to suffering. Our conclusions about this belief are different, but the idea is the same.  If we put our faith in temporary things or our desires are towards "happiness" or "self fulfillment" in this world (through possessions or through pleasures, or through cold logic, or even through our family and friends) and our eyes aren't towards eternity, then it's all dust. 

Like many women, I've experienced the horror of a second-trimester miscarriage.  We've lost others as well, but this one was different with labor, surgery, and a loss of innocence.  I was changed forever.  It's hard to go through because on the one hand the pain is so incredible, but on the other I'm so aware that other people suffer more, and that I've been given a lot in this life. I was still struggling with this when we discovered that our sweet son has autism. So how does one keep believing in a God that would take my child but give children to people who would abuse them and worse? Or yoke my son with a condition that will cause him to suffer and be misunderstood for his whole life?  These things take time to sort out, and the only thing I kept thinking is "God is merciful".  But those two ideas -the loss and suffering of my children and God's mercy seemed completely at odds.  

One day shortly after I told my son (then 5) that the baby had died, he said to me "Don't worry, mommy.  I asked the Theotokos to be the baby's mommy until she can be our baby again in heaven.  You said she was the best mommy in history. ("Theotokos" is the Greek title for Christ's mother Mary.)  

It was like a light came on.  God took my baby to heaven to prevent her from suffering ever again.  I remembered that I was very very sick during my pregnancy and obviously there was something wrong- I think she was probably in pain.  So either I believe what I've been preaching for my whole life or I don't and I came to realize that I do believe that she is somewhere safe and just waiting for me. Gift number two from my son that day was that it also put my own suffering into perspective.  Given the choice, would I go through that terrible illness and the pain of losing my child so that she can be eternally whole and peaceful?  Of course.  If the purpose of life (of everything) is union with God, then I can suffer a little for her.  If God is merciful, and I fall on that mercy, I can be with her again.  

People try to make sense of suffering in a number of ways- through religion, through science, through pleasures, through humanism, through atheism.  Orthodoxy is the only thing I've found that gives an appropriate context for suffering, because Orthodoxy is not uncomfortable with mystery (some people would say inconsistency  :) ). There's no jamming to make things fit when they don't. This world makes no sense, frankly, but we're ok with it because this world doesn't present the whole picture.    

By the way, this is what helped me with my grief, but it isn't necessarily "right" for anyone else.  I'm not claiming to understand suffering, especially the suffering of others.  If suffering a loss or any other pain has caused one to struggle with faith in God, there is a purpose in that and I'm certainly in no position to argue with them about how they should feel.  My hope for anyone who has lost a child is that they will find peace. 

 

[Greta]

One day shortly after I told my son (then 5) that the baby had died, he said to me "Don't worry, mommy. I asked the Theotokos to be the baby's mommy until she can be our baby again in heaven. You said she was the best mommy in history.

The purity of your son's faith brought me to tears. :grouphug: I am so very sorry for the loss of your darling baby girl. May her memory be eternal.

[Greta]

Right now at my church there is a liturgy for the Dormition of the Theotokos - that is, the death (or as we say, falling asleep in the Lord) of the Mother of God. I'm home sick, which is why I'm typing this right now instead of participating. But the reason I mention it is that when I think of faithfully enduring suffering, one of the most profound examples that comes to mind is that of the Theotokos, watching her beloved son and her Lord suffer and die on the cross.

 

There was an Orthodox saint (maybe some of the other Orthodox ladies here could remind me who it was) who said that the more we love, the more we suffer. The parent-child relationship is an example of this that I'm sure we can all relate to. We would rather endure suffering ourselves than see our children endure it. We love them so profoundly that we wish we could take on their suffering for them, to ease their pain, because knowing that they are in pain is more painful to us than our own pain.

 

Imagine feeling that way about everyone who has ever lived and ever will live. And there you have, to borrow the lyrics from a song that I like, "the terrible beauty of the cross".

 

I don't know how to say what it is that I want to say. God loves us so much, that He suffered with us and as one of us, because He could not bear to leave us alone in our suffering. Like a parent who doesn't eat and doesn't sleep to spend every moment at the bedside of a terribly ill child, because s/he can't bear the thought of that child experiencing one moment of loneliness in his pain. That is Christ on the cross for us.

 

I don't know that this answers the question that we all struggle with, to some extent and at certain times, of why God allows us to suffer. But I know that God is love. And I know that "the more we love, the more we suffer." And I know that God is with me in my suffering, a Father sitting by my sickbed, and with everyone in their suffering at all times. And knowing that eases the pain.

 

I don't know if I've managed to answer your question at all (I think the other Orthodox ladies here did a FAR better job of explaining the Orthodox vie, and I don't even know how much of what I've said here is Orthodox and how much of it is just me, and therefore flawed) or even if I've managed to make one bit of sense. But I'm so glad you asked the question, because reading these responses and thinking about this more deeply has been a very good experience for me. Thank you.

[Saddlemomma]

I'm struggling to put into words what I want to say.  To ask what religion teaches about suffering is linked to the much bigger question of the problem of evil.  Many Atheists believe the problem of evil proves God doesn't exist.  Many Christians, including me, believe the problem of evil actually proves that God does exist.  Suffering is often viewed as a manifestation of evil.  How could an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, loving God allow suffering and evil in the world He created?

 

Since I am a conglomerate-type of semi-reformed Christian (meaning I don't fit into any one type of denomination) I try to tread carefully through these questions because they can be so emotional and gut-wrenching for those currently going through trials and tribulations.  However, I'll give it a go and pray that none of you take it the wrong way. I really do not mean to offend anyone.

 

I have a problem seeing, hearing about, and witnessing the suffering of others: holocaust, wars, persecutions, murders, rapes, disease, sickness, deformities, etc... It distresses me as much as anyone.  However, I understand, through the Bible, why and how these atrocities and diseases are present in this fallen world. While it seems an eternity of suffering to us, it's a blink of an eye in God's timing.  Some suffering promotes growth; for some it promotes life; then there is the type of suffering where we never see the benefits, but that doesn't mean there are no benefits.  Suffering, to me, is like a pebble dropped into the ocean. We can see the rings radiating outward to a certain extent, touching the lives of others in positive ways: the child who receives an organ transplant that saves her life; but then we can no longer discern the rings or the positives. That doesn't mean the water stopped moving or the positives ceased to happen. God knows beforehand how our suffering will affect, change, or benefit the lives of others. Then finally, at the end of life, there is an outcome that blissfully transcends any suffering we could ever possibly endure in this world. 

 

Not all suffering benefits others.  Some suffering is a means of punishment.  Yes, it sounds cruel - I totally agree.  However, just as we live in an earthly world that is run according to laws with punishment for breaking those laws; so, too, does God have laws, and He is the ultimate judge of His creation.  He cannot be present with sin; He can't look at it.  To atone for the fall in Eden, He put into place a mechanism of sacrifices to absolve His children from sin so He could accept them as He yearned to do.  That system fell apart because no one could adhere to it well enough to ever be good enough.  As a result, God, in His infinite love and mercy, provided His Son as the ultimate sacrifice -- shedding innocent blood to cover all who believe in Him.  Because God does love all and wants everyone to choose Him freely, we are given a choice:  choose Him and gain eternal life; or not and be forever removed from His presence (that is Hell).

 

It's extremely hard to even comprehend what eternal life in heaven might look or feel like and some don't even believe there is an alternate outcome.  It must be doubly hard for those who don't believe to countenance what a Christian is talking about.  It must seem heartless.  I get that and can appreciate the negative feelings that must invoke.  Yet, for me, knowing the why and the eventual outcome, helps me to get through the suffering I encounter whether personal or not.  During times of personal suffering, I'm reminded of the poem, "Footprints in the Sand".  I hold on to that image of Jesus carrying me through the suffering.  I'm reminded that He, who had no sin, had no one carrying Him through the ordeal of the cross, yet He remained steadfast and suffered through it for us all.

 

I'm sure to many my explanations seem simplistic and naive, but they are what I believe according to my worldview. Following is an article that may help convey what I'm trying to articulate a little better:

 

• http://www.str.org/articles/does-pain-and-suffering-prove-there-is-no-god#.U-5QFmNNjsE

[Tiramisu]

I'm Catholic. I have heard of "offering up suffering." I'm not even totally sure I understand it but I like to think when I'm suffering I can ask God to use that pain on someone else's behalf. Okay now I sound crazy. I don't know how to explain. But I also think sometimes it's a time to reflect on how blessed I am that I am not suffering more or that I don't suffer daily.

 

It is hard to explain, but this guy does it well using lots of scripture. 

 

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resources/sacraments/anointing-of-the-sick/suffering-can-lead-to-salvation/

[SadieMarie]

In my belief system (fence sitting) it is mostly about bad luck.  

[Crimson Wife]

The purity of your son's faith brought me to tears. :grouphug: I am so very sorry for the loss of your darling baby girl. May her memory be eternal.

 

It doesn't seem right to "like" this post, but I definitely agree with GretaLynne's sentiments. {{{hugs}}}

[Guest]

Could any EO lady give me a brief explanation of how EO thoughts are applied to suffering on an industrial scale ?

 

I can almost understand the God chiselling, or working to help us develop empathy thing on an individual level, although I experience that as cruel, not loving, but it all falls apart for me when I think Holocaust or genocide.

 

If you'd rather not, that OK too.

 

And I promise I just want to hear. I won't even post in response, except to say thanks.

 

Re:  suffering on an industrial scale:

 

The EO boardies have already responded with beautiful posts, and I'm feeling kinda crummy at the moment, so I am going to pipe up only with a few thoughts (probably--y' never know with me and my run-on mouth...) that stand out to me.  

 

First, I mentioned Viktor Frankl's writing, Man's Search for Meaning.  Here is a link to a .pdf of the book:  http://worldtracker.org/media/library/Psychology/Man's%20Search%20For%20Meaning%20-%20Viktor%20E.%20Frankl.pdf  

 

Frankl was a participant in "Industrial Suffering" as you put it; this book is his reflection on it.  The thing that stood out to me was his description of three kinds of lives that have "purpose"--the aesthetical life (one of beauty) and the accomplished life (one of achievement)--and these are generally acknowledged by everyone everywhere to be lives "worth living" -- but Frankl didn't stop there.  He added the suffering life as one which has meaning and purpose.  Frankl is not EO; he is Jewish.  But this writing did so much for me personally in understanding the suffering in my own life, and providing some meaning in a completely insane world (that of industrial suffering, as you put it, if I am interpreting your rightly, Sadie).  

 

In addition, EOrthodoxy believes that man is made in God's image and likeness--and that includes the freedom of will to choose--good/evil; love/apathy; give/take; etc.  In this freedom of will, mankind does some very beautiful and even holy things...and mankind does things that are unspeakably reprehensible--flat out evil.  God allows these evil things to happen ... but they are not HIS will but our own.  (That, by the way, is the space that is called "Providence"--that which God allows but does not will.)  People talk about God's omnipotence as an explanation that He controls everything--but it is part of God's omnipotence to not interfere with the free will of those created in His image and likeness.  At any rate, the point I want to make here is that sometimes people try to blame God for evil done by mankind...but it our own selves (in toto) that we have to blame.  

 

But at a cosmic level, I give you this quotation from Father Stephen Freeman:

 

I think evil is always small, and that good is infinite. Evil closes itself to God and thus becomes even smaller; Good opens itself to God and thus becomes infinite. Evil cannot become so large as to fill even the universe. God became so small that He could fill Hell and then burst it asunder because it could not contain Him. Every good deed will have eternal remembrance, but even the largest deeds of the evil will be forgotten.

 

If you want to read more of Father Stephen's writings on suffering, you can go here (I have already sorted it for "suffering") but not culled anything beyond that.  http://glory2godforallthings.com/?s=suffering.  

 

I think that is all I can say about "industrial suffering" at this point.  Most of what else I would have said has already been said.  :0)  

 

I will add this:  There is a lot of it going on in the world at this very moment, and the question that needs to be asked is "What are WE to do in the face of this suffering, here and now?"  

 

 

[Guest]

Does Freeman have scripture for the reasoning in that quote? Just curious. I can't say I've seen that anywhere in the bible, but it would be an interesting read if he has a case built for it somewhere on his blog :)

 

Father Stephen has the teachings of the faith which come from the scriptures; people say all kinds of things that are not direct quotes from the Bible and still, what they say is true.  

 

If you want to know more about this, I can refer you to some books and readings; send me a PM.  It's not a debate/discussion I am willing to have on this thread.  

[wintermom]

Simply put (probably over-simplified), in the Catholic faith suffering is something to be embraced as it can bring us closer to Jesus (though His suffering). Pope John Paul II publicly embraced his suffering.

 

Then there is Our Lady of Sorrows. I don't have a reliable website to direct people to.

[Muttichen]

I recently read a blog post about suffering from a Calvinist perspective and to be completely honest I was surprised. I am not very familiar with Calvinist doctrine but basically the writer came to the conclusion that nothing happens outside of God's will so therefore any suffering that happens is all part of God's plan. She really lost me there. I absolutely cannot fathom a God who has a plan that involves children in sexual slavery. I hope a Calvinist can chime in and help explain this a little. I realize that I don't have the full picture and may not fully understand. I certainly don't want a debate just to understand it better.

 

I actually came to be a Calvinist through struggling with the question of how God would allow suffering.  I came from an Arminian background and felt that the answers I heard there just weren't satisfying.

 

I think the Heidelberg Catechism summarizes the Calvinist position well:

 

Q. What do you understand by the providence of God? 

A. The almighty and ever present power of God by which God upholds, as with his hand, heaven and earth and all creatures, and so rules them that leaf and blade, rain and drought, fruitful and lean years, food and drink, health and sickness, prosperity and poverty—all things, in fact, come to us not by chance but by his fatherly hand.

 

Q. How does the knowledge of God's creation and providence help us? 

A. We can be patient when things go against us, thankful when things go well, and for the future we can have good confidence in our faithful God and Father that nothing in creation will separate us from his love. For all creatures are so completely in God's hand that without his will they can neither move nor be moved.

 

 

So yes, we believe that no suffering comes except by the will of God.  For believers, there is great peace to be found here.  Whatever comes our way is sent by our loving Father and is for our ultimate good.  To me the best analogy is a Rubik's Cube.  We see one side, but God sees the whole cube and he is completing it without any wrong moves.  

[texasmama]

Tried on Calvinism at one point.  I am not a Calvinist now.

[Rosie_0801]

Thank you so much, Rosie, for sharing your perspective. It's easy to talk about "theories" about suffering but hearing from someone who is actually in the trenches is so valuable.

 

Elise in NC

 

You've heard from a few someones. I'm definitely not the only one around here sitting in this trench. :(

[Crimson Wife]

Prayers/good vibes out to all the boardies who are hurting regardless of whether or not you choose to make your struggles publicly known. {{{hugs}}}

[umsami]

In Islam, Muslims often look to the life of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) for example.  The Prophet had a lot of hardship in his life.  He was orphaned at a very young age.  He lost his first wife--who was so important to him in so many ways--relatively young (50) after they had been married (exclusively) 25 years.  Neither of his two sons survived infancy.  He had people break promises to him, try to kill him, etc.   Yet to most Muslims, he was pretty much the best human being who ever lived.  So if he can suffer so much, anybody can…and it's not meant to be a judgement by God on their life.

 

There are others who believe that suffering is God's way of drawing us closer to Him/Her.  So without suffering, too many of us would not think of/turn to God.

 

A lot of Muslims look at what's going in Syria, Gaza, Burma, etc. and feel that God is punishing them for "turning away" from their faith.  That's part of the reason why (IMHO) we see a rise in fundamentalist Islam.   They believe that if Muslims truly followed the Qur'an, and many of them wish we would all act as if it was the 7th century, then God would bless the Muslims as He did during the early stages of Islam…when the faith grew, and was the hub for technology, science, medicine, art, poetry,  etc.

[FaithManor]

I know what our church teaches on the subject. I am not certain I believe it anymore, a rather recent phenomenon. So I won't ellucidate. I am all ears though; maybe something here will make sense. I am currently at a loss.

 

But, what Rosie said seems logical.

[wintermom]

In Islam, Muslims often look to the life of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) for example.  The Prophet had a lot of hardship in his life.  He was orphaned at a very young age.  He lost his first wife--who was so important to him in so many ways--relatively young (50) after they had been married (exclusively) 25 years.  Neither of his two sons survived infancy.  He had people break promises to him, try to kill him, etc.   Yet to most Muslims, he was pretty much the best human being who ever lived.  So if he can suffer so much, anybody can…and it's not meant to be a judgement by God on their life.

 

There are others who believe that suffering is God's way of drawing us closer to Him/Her.  So without suffering, too many of us would not think of/turn to God.

 

A lot of Muslims look at what's going in Syria, Gaza, Burma, etc. and feel that God is punishing them for "turning away" from their faith.  That's part of the reason why (IMHO) we see a rise in fundamentalist Islam.   They believe that if Muslims truly followed the Qur'an, and many of them wish we would all act as if it was the 7th century, then God would bless the Muslims as He did during the early stages of Islam…when the faith grew, and was the hub for technology, science, medicine, art, poetry,  etc.

 

It's one of the most difficult questions, isn't it: Do we suffer for a purpose? Is that purpose a punishment for something someone did? Is that purpose supposed to have some benefit for us? Or is there no other practical use to humans becoming sick and dying than to fertilize the ground when we die (and make room for others to live).

 

For my own mental and ultimately physical well-being, I cling to the belief that there is a purpose to our suffering, and it has some benefit in the grand scheme of things, of which I may not have complete understanding.