Why won't people tattle

[Anne in CA]

Thank you all for your input!

[LucyStoner]

Fire them both and move on. Life is too short to wonder why people are jerks.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I would fire the employees.  I wouldn't keep on a terrible waiter that you think is stealing from you and now that you know that she is driving business away, I would fire the wife as well.  As to why people didn't tell you, I'm not sure why but I"m glad that you now know.  

[Slartibartfast]

I am not sure why, I tattle.

 

:grouphug:

[Cinder]

:grouphug:  Ugh--what a horrible situation. I hope they don't make more trouble for you after you (probably, sounds like?) fire them.

[Flowing Brook]

Because often when people "tattle" they end up being the bad guy. It is easier for people to stay out of a situation. Not saying it is right just the way it seems with people. I wish people would be more willing to talk.

[Harriet Vane]

Ugh. How awful.

 

Fire them. Don't add to the drama--be low-key, but do it. Immediately.

[jaderbee]

My mom told me not to tattle. No really, she said I should never tattle until I had first dealt with the offender myself. That takes a lot of courage and a spine most people lack. Inconvenience is a great excuse for cowardice. This is certainly something I need to continue to work on. I'm sorry you got such crap employees. It sounds like you're in a smaller town too. Good luck getting rid of them I hope they get the fire out soon!

[JustEm]

People don't tattle because they don't want to get involved and often it ends up landing back on them somehow.

[redsquirrel]

Also I think tattling gets a bad rap. I know as an adult I was surprised how often I heard parents tell kids not to tattle. I don't remember ever being told that as a child. I realize that they mean don't tattle about certain things, but not all. "Snitch" has a very negative connotation and people don't want to be labeled that.

 

I have been put in awkward situations where I had to contemplate whether or not to speak up.

 

Tattling isn't telling. Tattling is getting someone in trouble and you make yourself look good. It is not about righting a wrong or solving a problem. It is going to a higher authority to benefit yourself at the detriment of someone else.

 

The difference between tattling and telling is that telling often doesn't feel all that good, but you know it needs to be done. Tattling is to make yourself look better or to get some benefit.

 

The idea of 'not tattling' can stop a lot of kids from telling adults about something they know is wrong, so it is important for parents to make the difference clear.

 

And if a server in a restaurant made some offhand comment to me about the owners I would prob take it at face value or just not want to get involved. If the owners were actual close friends of mine then I would tell them. But my loyalty is to a business, not necessarily to the owners. If I hear something about the owners of a business I like, but I don't know the owner very well then I wouldn't say anything. It would feel weird.

[Anne in CA]

A number of possible reasons...

• the possible implication that you had poor judgement in hiring/trusting these employees or not noticing any problems.   

  Don't want to offend you by making that implication

• drama - don't want to get involved in anything like that in general

• fear that it will lead to gossip about the person that came forward with the information/other domino effect like if they

  have to deal with this couple outside of the restaurant

• an assumption that what they say won't make any impact so they might as well just eat somewhere else

• no concrete evidence

• doubt in what they witnessed or perceived about the employees

• loyal customers may have based part of their loyalty on service and once that was gone (or altered) felt no more loyalty

 

I'm sorry this has happened. At least you can mull it over now. Maybe even put in security cameras (pointing at register and where baked goods are?).

Thank you for this post, I feel that some of these things are definitely true. I get that I have been working more than 80 hours a week since fishing season started and probably I seem flaky to people who don't know me well.

 

No one can eat an another restaurant without driving more than 30 miles, now. There were only two other restaurants in the general area anyway and one just burned to the ground, completely, and one is closed due to the fire. All that to say, no one could just go down the street for a different burger, lol. They had to have been pretty offended to stay away over her behavior.

 

And, yes, once the good service is gone clearly people aren't loyal anymore. Completely reasonable, I just wasn't seeing it that way. It is my fault for hiring these people against my better instincts. Now they cannot just be fired because they are the sort who WILL sue, I will have to be extremely careful how I proceed.

[Twigs]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[Myeightkiddies]

Can you hire a couple of new people and then slowly cut their (the ones who are hurting your business) hours to the point it isn't in their best interest to work there?

[Slartibartfast]

Thank you for this post, I feel that some of these things are definitely true. I get that I have been working more than 80 hours a week since fishing season started and probably I seem flaky to people who don't know me well.

 

No one can eat an another restaurant without driving more than 30 miles, now. There were only two other restaurants in the general area anyway and one just burned to the ground, completely, and one is closed due to the fire. All that to say, no one could just go down the street for a different burger, lol. They had to have been pretty offended to stay away over her behavior.

 

And, yes, once the good service is gone clearly people aren't loyal anymore. Completely reasonable, I just wasn't seeing it that way. It is my fault for hiring these people against my better instincts. Now they cannot just be fired because they are the sort who WILL sue, I will have to be extremely careful how I proceed.

 

Is your state an "at will" state?

 

I would document what this person discussed with you and fire them. I wouldn't want them around at all, even at reduced hours.

[QueenCat]

 Now they cannot just be fired because they are the sort who WILL sue, I will have to be extremely careful how I proceed.

 

Document. Do you have to, legally, have a reason to fire? Cut hours to the point where they don't find the job worth keeping. Only have them work when you are present.

[FaithManor]

Are you in a "fire at will state"? If so you can let them go and give no reason. If you can fire without cause, then as long as you remain completely mum on the subject and never say anything to anyone about why, they can't sue because you are not attempting to prove why you fired them. 

 

Not every state has this option, so you need to check into it.

 

Your other option would be to say business is slow and you can't afford to keep them on. Let him go one week and her the next. When business picks up, you are under no obligation to rehire them as long as you terminated employment and did not " lay off" which can have some contractual obligation in some states. But you can never talk about their employment or your experiences with them because without documentation and evidence that is more than heresay, you could be sued. So in your community, silence is golden in the matter.

[Anne in CA]

Basically my plan is to cut their hours back and when they complain (which they will) I will give them undesirable shifts. It is how things work in states that are not "right to work".  Since the business is seasonal it is completely easy to let them go in October, which I will for sure, but hopefully I can be done with them before then. I have been carrying a lot of their weight, doing extra things for them to make their lives easier. Their free ride is over. I think that will get rid of them when they are basically making minimum wage with few tips now that the fire has taken a lot of business and they have to wash their own dishes and clean the floors and do food prep. 

[hillfarm]

I think one reason why people don't tattle or complain is that even though the offender is clearly in the wrong, observers don't want to be responsible for anyone losing their job. Or even getting in serious trouble. At least most decent people don't want to cause this to happen.

 

Regarding getting rid of the two, first I would deal with the husband. I would document the specific days when he was working the register and it came up wrong. Then I would just calmly tell him that he had an excessive number of discrepancies and that you had to let him go. No blaming, no arguing, no accusing him of theft. Just flat out numbers. "Your register came up at a loss 8 times in the last 3 months. That is more than our business can handle, so we have to let you go."

 

I am sure the wife will be disgruntled when her dh is let go, so be ready to document any problems that might arise. I would watch her closely and the first time I heard her (with my own ears, no hearsay) disparage the quality of my food, I would call her in and tell her that you had to let her go due to her negative and inappropriate comments to customers. Let her know that you had been hearing rumors to that effect from others but you refused to act on rumor and were planning to do nothing until you heard it yourself.

 

Life is too short to put up with people's crap. The waitstaff at a restaurant is the face of the restaurant for the customers. We don't see the cooks or the owners. If all goes well, the only people we see are the waiters - don't let anyone force you to employ ones that tear your business down instead of building it up.

 

Make sure you document everything in writing and you might even want to type it up into a document and have the troublemakers sign and date it as part of their exit interview, acknowledging that you explained "the following as the reasons for their termination". Not legally binding or anything, but it might cause them to think twice about trying to sue you. Generally people assume that signing such a document means that they agree that it is true, and then they would feel that they did not have a case against you. In your favor, you would then have a signed document indicating the specific reasons you had terminated their employment and could clearly show that it was not due to religion, physical appearance, ageism, or any other claim that might be grounds for compensation.

[FaithManor]

Since you have had a slack off in business, and the wild fire issue is imminent, I would seriously cut back their hours now! No need to wait, and then even if it picks up I would not reinstitute their hours.

[albeto.]

Basically my plan is to cut their hours back and when they complain (which they will) I will give them undesirable shifts. It is how things work in states that are not "right to work".  Since the business is seasonal it is completely easy to let them go in October, which I will for sure, but hopefully I can be done with them before then. I have been carrying a lot of their weight, doing extra things for them to make their lives easier. Their free ride is over. I think that will get rid of them when they are basically making minimum wage with few tips now that the fire has taken a lot of business and they have to wash their own dishes and clean the floors and do food prep. 

 

Why not fire them outright? It seems to me this tactic would only serve to give the appearance of playing dirty with them, you know, revenge. If I were in this situation, I would cut them a small severance check, explain their lack of work ethics (give a couple examples), and give them two weeks notice. in my opinion that preserves the appearance of the reason for termination being work related, rather than for some personal drama or even contrived civil issue. I would probably even keep a copy for them and me in writing just for CYA purposes. They might simply not come back the next day. I would hire new employees right away. People are looking for jobs all over. Offer employment to someone who is willing to help your business, not air their frustrations out on customers.

[SKL]

I would have told you if I was a loyal customer.  :(

[idnib]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug: 

[RanchGirl]

Treating them badly in hopes they will quit just gives them opportunity and motive to do additional, and possibly much worse, damage to your business.  I would fire them both immediately.  Since you are a business owner, you really need to focus on eliminating them and repairing the damage they have already caused.  That would be much more useful than feeling hurt and wondering why it happened.  (Not that I blame you for the latter, just saying that as a business owner you don't have time for that stuff!).

[gardenmom5]

It never occurred to me that they would deliberately hurt my business even though they didn't like me.

 

I am not convinced the husband has not stolen from me. The register is only short when he works it, and I was giving him the benefit of the doubt until I realized he has no respect for me

 

I'm sorry - but to be blunt, you have been naïve.

 

the wife was probably a good waitress to the former owner because she got to take home so much leftover food.

 

I would fire them both asap.

 

eta: I would not give notice unless legally obligated.  there is too much potential for malicious mischief on their part.

[gardenmom5]

. I have been carrying a lot of their weight, doing extra things for them to make their lives easier.

 

you're the business owner and you're making their lives easier?  I'm confused. why?  I would think you would be too busy with your business to do the things you HIRED THEM to do.

[gardenmom5]

 

Make sure you document everything in writing and you might even want to type it up into a document and have the troublemakers sign and date it as part of their exit interview,

 

*if* you go that route - you have to be very nonchalant..  it is very hard to do in such a way that the perpetrators will actually sign a document affirming any malfeasance.  they can't realize what you are doing.  (dh did it with a SVP at a bank, but he can do a good columbo impersonation. the subsequent lawsuit for wrongful dismissal didn't even make it to court before being tossed.)

 

if they know it is an exit interview, and you are asking them to sign an admission of their untoward behaviors - i give 99.9% odds they won't sign.

[Alessandra]

The employees sound nasty. I would hire a local attorney for advice and then fire the employees. I agree about no notice. Be prepared for them to be very angry.

[LucyStoner]

Are you in California? It is an "at-will" state. Your understanding of the law is off kilter.

 

http://www.business.ca.gov/StartaBusiness/AdministeringEmployees/EqualEmploymentOpportunityLaws/AtWillEmployment.aspx

 

Employment law attorneys do not work on contingency (because the cases take too long and are very hard to win). I seriously doubt they are going to have the means to do much more than threaten to sue. But even on the off chance they might have the means to sue, if you don't tell them a single word about why and you don't retaliate while they are working for you in an at will state they don't have grounds.

 

Right to work state laws have nothing to do with who can and can't be fired for any reason. They have to do with if union membership can be a condition of employment. I live in an at-will state which is not a right to work state and I have let employees go for all sorts of reasons.

 

You may want to hire an employment lawyer to draft a standard termination letter and agreement. Offer them 2 weeks severance in lieu of notice and a commitment not to fight their unemployment eligibility if they sign a liability release. They might spout some crap but they will sign. Don't even bother with an exit interview.

 

Get rid of them and resist this very risky plan to keep them but get them to quit. You will hurt your business more by keeping them around, sinking to their level and creating a more hostile environment for your customers. And then, you will have a hand in it. Why do that to yourself, your business and your other employees?

[Anne in CA]

Katie, I will read your link when I am awake and do more research today. I suppose I was thinking CA and OR (where I moved from) were similar in employment laws.

[Anne in CA]

you're the business owner and you're making their lives easier?  I'm confused. why?  I would think you would be too busy with your business to do the things you HIRED THEM to do.

I have been "carrying" them because there are very few people here who are not retired so I had no one apply to wait tables for the first two months I had the business. I have been too busy to do part of their jobs but I have been doing it anyway. I have another waitress who is very good, but she has young children and is busy with them. I am going to have to figure out what to do about getting more help, but due to the fire I will not have both of them work at the same time anymore and I will begin looking for someone else immediately.

[redsquirrel]

If you are in an at will state then you are free to fire them at will. You can tell that due to some changes in the business you are letting them go but will be happy to give them a reference. If you are called for a reference all you have to do is confirm the date they worked at your business. More and more employers are only confirming dates when asked to give a reference so it won't stand out. Giving a bad reference is tricky business, more tricky than firing someone.

[zoobie]

If you're in an at will state, you can fire them outright for any non-protected reason (age, sex, national origin, etc., etc.). You don't have to give them a reason. Usually people do not because it's ammunition for law suits. They can file for unemployment and you can submit your reasoning then, but they may get unemployment. I would see an attorney. Here, your plan to cut hours until they quit could be violative of employment laws. You might be able to get them to sign a separation agreement and pay $x for them NOT to sue frivolously, file any employment claims, and discuss your business. At any rate, if you believe the situation could lead to litigation, I wouldn't discuss it on a public forum. Good luck.

 

ETA: I'd also put up surveillance cameras.