4H people: A question (and a vent)

[shanvan]

Dh and I became leaders of an established club last year.  We are just helping, not the main leaders in charge.  

 

When our Dc joined this club the people were nice, but disorganized.  It took us years to even know what opportunities were available.  Ds has been president for the past 3-4 years (I've lost track) and he has been on a mission to make all members aware of opportunities and basic 'how to' navigate events and requirements, etc. 

 

Believe me, the parents are well informed, especially compared with how little info we were given when we joined.  Yet....yet... we repeatedly have kids/parents telling us they didn't know this or that even though multiple emails have been sent AND Ds and I, and at times even other leaders, have presented all of the info to the club in person at meetings, and it is all on the website.

 

Now we are coming to decorating the trophy case at the 4H building this week, and despite all the info put out there, we have possibly 2 kids other than mine who are going to put things in the trophy case.  My immediate thought was to start calling around to recruit stuff from other kids so that they will feel included, but I'm not going to b/c I am tired and I do have other things to get done.  

 

Do you have this happening in your 4H club?  I seem to be in the position of having to decide whether to drum up participation or leave out kids constantly.  Recently one girl came to a meeting and I showed her pictures on the website and she said she's never seen the website!  It's a shutterfly site, so it's password protected and the mom hasn't shown it to her or given her the password.  She probably doesn't see the emails either.  She missed some opportunities she would like to have participated in b/c her mom didn't pass them along to her.  I feel for the kids who aren't getting the information, but isn't that their parent's responsibility?

 

ETA: The main leader and founder of the club has the attitude that she isn't going to hold parent's hands for them.  I initially thought she was being a bit callous and that some people really need help to understand how it all works (I know from experience), but now I am starting to see her point b/c hand holding can be a part time job, it seems.  I guess I'm wondering at what point do you expect people to put some effort in to get the most out of their experiences?  We had to and we did, and that's how we figured things out.  We had no one holding our hands or chasing after us.  We asked questions, made phone calls, tracked down the people and found out what we needed to know, asked questions and chased down opportunities   But maybe everyone isn't like that?  Uggh!  I'm frustrated.  

[jhschool]

I'm sorry this is happening to you. In my experience,

most people are lazy and want the leaders to do

everything for them. And if the leaders don't make

everything happen, people are quick to blame the

leaders. People usually don't step up and take responsibility.

I am so sorry -- I have had countless experiences where

parents are not involved, expect leaders to do everything,

and don't even help their own kids out. The kids pay for

it, but you take the blame. Sorry for doing my own rant here,

but I have been in your shoes millions of times.

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

 

Could you have a meeting of all the members, explain the situation without blaming (since that will obviously alienate them) and ask for suggestions?  Explain all the ways you are working to inform but that it requires the parents to be active in helping the kids stay up on the latest happenings and you don't have time to call individual people every week.  Then see if anyone has useful suggestions for getting info out there in a way that they will actually access?  People are overscheduled these days and bombarded with information.  It can truly become overwhelming.  But it shouldn't be your responsibility to constantly lead them around.

[J-rap]

I don't know why 4H clubs are so difficult to navigate and figure out, but that has been our experience too!  It probably took us three years to really figure it all out -- so that's great that you have taken the time to lay it all out for everyone!  One thing that our county did that was helpful was to send everyone a manual (updated yearly).  It could have been better, but maybe you could do something like that?  We flipped through that manual so many times.  It seemed easier than having to look things up on the internet.   You could list yearly events that are likely to happen, dates if you can, and then of course project procedures and anything else you feel would be helpful.

 

I was in charge of our monthly homeschool group newsletter, and found that a paper one by U.S. mail served our group much better than an online one.

 

I know email is still easiest for quick reminders and announcements.  Maybe you could get some other parents involved to help with that, or even have a phone chain with new, important announcements that didn't make it to the manual or monthly newsletter.

 

ETA:  Also, when I say "you" I don't necessarily mean you personally -- but just your group generally.  Hopefully other parents will step in!

[Word Nerd]

I am a club leader and can relate to your frustration. I get annoyed especially with the longtime parents who have plenty of opinions about how the leaders should do things but never step up to volunteer themselves. No one has time to do anything, it seems, even to read an email. I have been more firm about club commitments and making it very clear to members that if you vote in favor of doing a particular activity, you are also committing to being there yourself. If you can't be there, don't vote for it and commit other people to do it on your behalf.

[Erica in OR]

In my experience, quite common and not limited to 4-H groups. You can put all the information out there, but no matter what you do, there's no guarantee that everyone will read and absorb that information.

 

Erica in OR

[shanvan]

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

 

Could you have a meeting of all the members, explain the situation without blaming (since that will obviously alienate them) and ask for suggestions?  Explain all the ways you are working to inform but that it requires the parents to be active in helping the kids stay up on the latest happenings and you don't have time to call individual people every week.  Then see if anyone has useful suggestions for getting info out there in a way that they will actually access?  People are overscheduled these days and bombarded with information.  It can truly become overwhelming.  But it shouldn't be your responsibility to constantly lead them around.

 

Ds has already done this at several meetings, but it seems to fall on deaf ears--or maybe they ignore him b/c he is a kid?  He's a very good public speaker though and confident, so it's not like he's been whispering. 

 

 

I don't know why 4H clubs are so difficult to navigate and figure out, but that has been our experience too!  It probably took us three years to really figure it all out -- so that's great that you have taken the time to lay it all out for everyone!  One thing that our county did that was helpful was to send everyone a manual (updated yearly).  It could have been better, but maybe you could do something like that?  We flipped through that manual so many times.  It seemed easier than having to look things up on the internet.   You could list yearly events that are likely to happen, dates if you can, and then of course project procedures and anything else you feel would be helpful.

 

Yes!  Ds and I were talking about doing this, but we got busy with other things.  We could try.  Still, the shutterfly site has a calendar and all events from the past year are there, so they are easy to see.

 

ETA:  Also, when I say "you" I don't necessarily mean you personally -- but just your group generally.  Hopefully other parents will step in!

Glad you don't me me, personally!  :lol: 

[shanvan]

I am a club leader and can relate to your frustration. I get annoyed especially with the longtime parents who have plenty of opinions about how the leaders should do things but never step up to volunteer themselves. No one has time to do anything, it seems, even to read an email. I have been more firm about club commitments and making it very clear to members that if you vote in favor of doing a particular activity, you are also committing to being there yourself. If you can't be there, don't vote for it and commit other people to do it on your behalf.

This is another issue we've had to deal with recently.  Dd agreed to help a fellow member with a project for the fair.  Now the girl who wanted to do it so badly thinks she has to bail and there are other new members involved.  I'm not sure yet what we are going to do about it.  I did tell the girl and her mom, that she needs to survey the people involved to see if there is enough help willing to take over and move forward.  Originally, it seemed like they were thinking they'd just let me know and I'd figure it out!

[bolt.]

It might help your frustration level (though not really the situation itself --just how you feel about it) to say to yourself something like, "People may not put in enough effort to get 'the most' out of the situation; but they put in just the right amount if effort to be satisfied with what they get."

 

There may be 'more' for them, but do each and every one of them really want to maximize each and every opportunity? If they do, they will seem 'driven' and do what it takes.

 

It is something like a 'passive choice' -- like water finding its own level. They get out if the program proportionally to what they put in... But there are lots of levels to choose from. Maybe 'less than all the benefits' is worth it for people who prefer 'less than all the effort'.

 

That way you might feel that they are getting what they want/choose, rather than feing like they are being left out.

[shanvan]

Have you ever considered doing a closed group on Facebook? The kids would likely log into facebook and see the information that way. The emails to parents could continue, though.

 

The whole password thing with Shutterfly... while I totally agree with privacy I am willing to bet these parents don't even know where the password IS. It's probably buried in their inbox or spam folder. Or written down on a sheet of paper they lost/threw away.

 

If calling is more effective maybe a phone tree needs to be used more often. I understand not wanting to do it that way, if you aren't a phone person or it's too time consuming, etc. I'm just wondering if these parents are just better about answering phones than they are about reading emails. If you don't want to do it, don't do it. But if you think it's more effective then consider it. A 2 min. message on a voice mail/answering machine might go further.

They set their own password.  It's individual not the same password for the entire group.  If they forget their password, the site will email them a link to set up a new one.  It's not that difficult.  I don't think many of the younger kids parents want them on Facebook, either.  In addition to the shutterfly group Ds sends email notifications and includes attachments for specific paperwork if there are forms to fill out.  Instructions are also included.  

 

Yeah, not going to do the phone calls, except on occasion.  I call a few parents if they have said to me 'My Dc wants to participate in ___."  Then I know they are interested and maybe they got busy and forgot.  I can't see phone communication working b/c there are often documents that explain due dates, procedures, etc.  If I put all of that into a phone call and not in writing, I know people would forget.  I would forget!  I need something in black and white that I can read over and over until my feeble brain gets it.  :lol:  I could make 20 phone calls saying this is a reminder to check your emails for ____, but that seems silly.

 

If people know the group communicates via email and they aren't going to pay attention, then that is up to them.  I am a member of several community groups.  Every one of them communicates via email.  If I am confused or don't understand an email I call or email back to clarify.  To me, this is part of being a grown up.  

[shanvan]

It might help your frustration level (though not really the situation itself --just how you feel about it) to say to yourself something like, "People may not put in enough effort to get 'the most' out of the situation; but they put in just the right amount if effort to be satisfied with what they get."

 

There may be 'more' for them, but do each and every one of them really want to maximize each and every opportunity? If they do, they will seem 'driven' and do what it takes.

 

It is something like a 'passive choice' -- like water finding its own level. They get out if the program proportionally to what they put in... But there are lots of levels to choose from. Maybe 'less than all the benefits' is worth it for people who prefer 'less than all the effort'.

 

That way you might feel that they are getting what they want/choose, rather than feing like they are being left out.

This is how I have been thinking about it too.  Except I feel bad if the kid is interested and the parent just didn't bother to let them know about something.  

 

I also don't want people to feel guilted into participating.   Then, as another poster mentioned, leaders seem to get blamed for everything.

 

Last year I had a family sign up to do something and they came to several meetings where the kids worked on the project.  I could tell they didn't realize how long it would take and were tired of it.  On the last day they called and said 'We can be there if you really need us, but we do have something else we should be doing.'  I told them not to worry about it b/c, to me it was obvious they just didn't want to be there.  I don't want to force people.  Then when one of the kids recently recruited volunteers and explained that the project is a lot of work and requires a time commitment, she said that last year only 2 of us were left to finish the whole thing.  

 

Well, the mom from the family I told not to come piped up with "Oh, no.  We did volunteer to help and YOU said you didn't need it."  :001_rolleyes:

[Plink]

We have been members of many clubs and groups, but I've never been in one so hard to coordinate/navigate as 4-H. Another poster above mentioned information overload, and that is our experience exactly. There is info on the county website. There is info on Shutterfly. There is info on the program site. There is info in the newsletter. There is info on the yahoo group. There is info at the meetings. There is info EVERYWHERE. Opportunities everythere. Options galore! And oh, the forms, those are buried under giant tomes of even more information.

 

I stopped reading it all a while ago and decided that we will simply participate at our own speed. If an event or program fits in our passions and schedule, only then will I jump trough the hoops to figure out where I need to get the rest of the forms or information.

 

I'm not sure that I have any constructive suggestions to fix the problem, but I wanted to let you know that you are not alone in dealing with the giant mess that is 4-H. We love it, but it really is an information nightmare.

[brehon]

My family was interested in 4-H several years ago. We completely gave up because we could not even figure out who we needed to get in contact with and how (phone? no number; e-mail? none listed or a group e-mail that either no one responded to or was closed to non-members; web site? very confusing and extremely difficult to navigate) Very frustrating!

 

I'm sorry you're having these issues, OP.

[Bambam]

I am a club manager for the rest of this year and then I'm done with 4-H.

We instituted a FB group. I put events (club meetings, practices, county meetings, contests, community service, everything) on the FB Group as an event. If you had your phone set up right, those FB events show up automatically to remind you. It worked for the people who were paying attention. They liked it. When I was forced to shut down a county FB group, I had several people tell me they really missed those events showing up automatically on their calendar. 

 

I was not going to make personal phone calls to each individual member family to remind them of upcoming events. I don't have time nor the inclination. 

 

People who are interested will pay attention. The rest won't. Sad that most parents will not make the effort to keep up with things that might benefit their children. Sometimes I think if you had to pay more, the parents *might* pay more attention and make sure their kids participate.

 

 

[Word Nerd]

 

People who are interested will pay attention. The rest won't.

 

Yup. I had several people complain because we send information primarily by email even though they would rather have a text message. So I set up a Remind 101 account and gave them the info they needed to add themselves to the list. Two families signed up, but not any of the people who said they wanted text reminders.

 

I don't want to make it sound like I don't like our 4-H club and our families. I think there are problems like this in most groups.

[Reefgazer]

We're not in 4-H. but I have this go on in other clubs, also.  I have been both of receiver of ignored notices/emails and a giver of them.  By way of explanation, it is probably not that you are deficient in your notifications, but others are over-busy and/or forgetful and let things slide.  I wouldn't expend much more energy on getting others to participate; just go with what you've got.

 

ETA:  Not everyone has Facebook, not everyone uses email, not everyone reads paper.  But if you've covered electronic and paper bases, you are good and I wouldn't sweat it any more

[katilac]

 <snip>

most people are lazy  

<snip>

 

This pretty much sums things up, lol. 

 

It didn't take me long to quit holding people's hands. It's a lot more effort for very little additional result.

 

I make it very clear where information will be posted and how people can get in touch with me, and it's up to them to check it. I post information on Facebook and via email, and you can reach me via Facebook, email, or text, period. 

 

I don't use voice calling at all, it takes way too much of my time (and I'm not a phone person, I really want to change my voice mail to say, why aren't you texting me?). 

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I don't know why 4H clubs are so difficult to navigate and figure out, but that has been our experience too! 

 

This has been our experience as well. Unless something changes, this will be our last 4H year. We have tried different groups in different states with varying levels of success, but it's just too much of a struggle to continue. I want want want to like 4H. I really do. It just isn't working for us, no matter how much we beg and plead and scour the internet for info. 4H dates, times, and procedures remain the forbidden fruit, the Holy Grail....

[Amy in NH]

This pretty much sums things up, lol. 

 

It didn't take me long to quit holding people's hands. It's a lot more effort for very little additional result.

 

I make it very clear where information will be posted and how people can get in touch with me, and it's up to them to check it. I post information on Facebook and via email, and you can reach me via Facebook, email, or text, period. 

 

I don't use voice calling at all, it takes way too much of my time (and I'm not a phone person, I really want to change my voice mail to say, why aren't you texting me?). 

 

I'm not texting you because there is no cell service where I live. 

OTOH I check my email multiple times per day, and I can make calls on my home phone.

[Erin]

I'm leader of a project club (dogs).  No paperwork to be done, no club projects, nothing but practicing for shows and working our dogs.  And, because we struggled for two years with a leader who never showed up, the other parents are still so thankful SOMEONE took over that no one would dream of not helping.  

yet.   ;)

That said, I agree with the above poster who pointed out most people are happy to reap the limited reward they get from their limited efforts.  

[katilac]

I'm not texting you because there is no cell service where I live. 

OTOH I check my email multiple times per day, and I can make calls on my home phone.

 

I said that email is fine as well. I'm not unreasonable, I'm just not going to talk to you. 

[shanvan]

I'm leader of a project club (dogs).  No paperwork to be done, no club projects, nothing but practicing for shows and working our dogs.  And, because we struggled for two years with a leader who never showed up, the other parents are still so thankful SOMEONE took over that no one would dream of not helping.  

yet.   ;)

That said, I agree with the above poster who pointed out most people are happy to reap the limited reward they get from their limited efforts.  

Don't you have entry forms for shows?  Are the Dc required to keep record books of their 4H year?  We've got that, plus a bunch of optional stuff we can participate in.  Besides our project area kids can submit any type of project to the county fair, though many of them have no idea.  

 

I have no problem with people picking their level of participation.  I feel bad for kids who would like to do more, but are held back by their parents.  I've been thinking about it off and on today and I'm going to talk to Ds to see if we can come up with a way to survey the club to see who knows how to get info and try to come up with some sort of solution--if there is even an issue.  The issue may be that parents don't want to commit to anything.  That's fine.  I'd rather they be honest than agree to do something and then flake out at the last minute.  

[shanvan]

This has been our experience as well. Unless something changes, this will be our last 4H year. We have tried different groups in different states with varying levels of success, but it's just too much of a struggle to continue. I want want want to like 4H. I really do. It just isn't working for us, no matter how much we beg and plead and scour the internet for info. 4H dates, times, and procedures remain the forbidden fruit, the Holy Grail....

 

I'm sorry that has been your experience.  When we first joined we felt somewhat like you.  thankfully, if I called the project leader, I was always able to get an answer, but in general the members at the time were not exactly forthcoming with info.  That's one of the reasons Ds and I were trying to make information more readily accessible.  Now I realize there can be a big disconnect b/t the parents (who maybe don't want another thing to do?) and the kid (who may want to participate more if they know about the options, but can't if their parents don't want to).

[Amy in NH]

I am a Project Leader, Organizational Leader,  and the President of our county Leaders' Association.  I serve on various committees to run events, fund-raise for the county program, set the annual county program budget, administer a scholarship, etc.

 

If you aren't getting the info you need from your club leaders then you can call your county Cooperative Extension staff directly.

 

Our county has a quarterly newsletter which is emailed to every 4-H leader, member, & parent enrolled in the county program.

 

Our county has a webpage where they post all of the information packets for events.  The packets contain all of the dates and rules for each event.  Our state website has links to each county's website.  Perhaps you could google your state Cooperative Extension to find 4-H information for your county. 

 

We also have bi-monthly leaders' meetings.  If you contact your county's Cooperative Extension office you may be able to get screened as a leader and would then be eligible to attend these meetings where events and calendars are discussed.  There is an annual calendar distributed each autumn.  You could also join committees where the nitty gritty work is done toward making positive changes in your local program.

 

Our county has one of the strongest 4-H programs in the state.  I agree that it takes a lot of volunteer work to make the program a success.  If people choose not to read their mail or attend & take notes at the meetings then it is their fault.  So long as you know they have been given the information, don't take the blame for their laziness.  I do spend a lot of time contacting parents, individually if I have to.  But I do have a limit, of course, beyond which I drop them. 

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I am a Project Leader, Organizational Leader,  and the President of our county Leaders' Association.  I serve on various committees to run events, fund-raise for the county program, set the annual county program budget, administer a scholarship, etc.

 

If you aren't getting the info you need from your club leaders then you can call your county Cooperative Extension staff directly.

 

Our county has a quarterly newsletter which is emailed to every 4-H leader, member, & parent enrolled in the county program.

 

Our county has a webpage where they post all of the information packets for events.  The packets contain all of the dates and rules for each event.  Our state website has links to each county's website.  Perhaps you could google your state Cooperative Extension to find 4-H information for your county. 

 

We also have bi-monthly leaders' meetings.  If you contact your county's Cooperative Extension office you may be able to get screened as a leader and would then be eligible to attend these meetings where events and calendars are discussed.  There is an annual calendar distributed each autumn.  You could also join committees where the nitty gritty work is done toward making positive changes in your local program.

 

Our county has one of the strongest 4-H programs in the state.  I agree that it takes a lot of volunteer work to make the program a success.  If people choose not to read their mail or attend & take notes at the meetings then it is their fault.  So long as you know they have been given the information, don't take the blame for their laziness.  I do spend a lot of time contacting parents, individually if I have to.  But I do have a limit, of course, beyond which I drop them. 

 

Sounds like you have a great program. Unfortunately that is not always the case. When a website is a year or two old, checking the calendar doesn't help much. When the leaders aren't sure what's going on, contacting them doesn't help much. When the extension agency gives conflicting information, getting in touch with them doesn't help much. When the children are told if projects and volunteer work are not completed, they can't participate in the fun, and a child does all her work, but notices she was the ONLY one to complete all the required work, yet EVERYONE gets to participate in the fun anyway....well, that gets old pretty quickly.  Don't make the requirement if there is no intention of following through...Also, winning contests by default due to being the only one who entered isn't that exciting either.

 

Once again, it sounds like you have a great program! The children who do their part and do the work are sure to benefit from it! I have watched others do the nitty gritty work of trying to make a positive change in local programs, but sometimes there just isn't enough interest to make it happen.

 

I think it takes  good leaders, interested kids, and involved parents (or at least ones willing to make somewhat of a commitment) to make a great group. Without all three, it's tough.

 

 

[torikei]

We are 4-H dropouts. For us, everything seemed more difficult and time consuming than it should be. We felt very lost most of the time. I personally think the whole system needs to be streamlined. Now our club was very disorganized and run by a couple of families. If you weren't a part of the 4-H Maffia you had no input. You sound like you are doing an awesome job especially compared to our experience. :)

[OH_Homeschooler]

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

 

Could you have a meeting of all the members, explain the situation without blaming (since that will obviously alienate them) and ask for suggestions?  Explain all the ways you are working to inform but that it requires the parents to be active in helping the kids stay up on the latest happenings and you don't have time to call individual people every week.  Then see if anyone has useful suggestions for getting info out there in a way that they will actually access?  People are overscheduled these days and bombarded with information.  It can truly become overwhelming.  But it shouldn't be your responsibility to constantly lead them around.

 

We're finishing up our first year in 4-H and I have to agree with this. We sort of started attending early in the Fall and there was a change in leadership in October or November and that had us a little confused. We were not clear on how to sign up for projects, or what to do for projects, but we were signed up to chair the service committee and planned something for each month. The club leader started just adding random service projects to our list, and insisted we have service project meetings at the end of say, optional Saturday night social activities. (I should note that the club membership includes a lot of younger kids, and the entire service committee included just young kids so forcing kids to stay late at a social activity wasn't cool).

 

Sorry, I digressed. The leader finally had a parent meeting at some point in March or April. This was extremely helpful. She actually described all the stuff I needed to know in October. She had been communicating with us, but her emails and texts are often times unreadable. She changes font frequently, possibly to emphasize her points, but it really hurts my eyes. She rambles. Her texts to us are often so long we get 4 or 5 in a row, because I think they automatically get broken up. She sent out a list of meetings at the beginning of the year, with the themes and so on, but changes them each month. She often doesn't send these changes until the night before or day of the meeting, and it's hard to read these while running around with kids. It's like all the stuff that had been decided (and which I had written on calendars) changed. 

 

I don't know. I like the flexibility of 4-H in that you can pick and choose which projects to work on. But it is confusing as well. It doesn't help to have a domineering leader (not what I am reading in the OP, just my personal experience) who is also not so good at organization. 

[magic]

I am a project leader (scrap booking and home environment) and am the future club leader in training.  Our leader has been the leader for over 20 years and her youngest has only 3 more years.  I have been working under her and with her for two years so that I can learn the ropes.  Next year we are planning for me to be co-leader for 2 years and then take over after that.  We have a really great club and we are very active.  We recently "absorbed" members from another club because so few people were participating their that they decided to dissolve it.  We have consistent monthly meeting and you can only have 2 excused absences all year.  Every fall you can decide how all you would like to receive communications- mail, email, call, and/or text.  Once a month the county will mail an update pertaining to all of the clubs in the county- they also do this weekly via email.  Our club sends out an email at least twice a month and everyone receives a call or text the day before our regularly scheduled meetings.  We have two kids who are elected each year to be in charge of making the calls and texts each month.

 

We have sign-ups for service opportunities and work projects.  If you have not participated in something by April, you are contacted and must choose something to be a part of by the end of July.  Usually we do not have an issue with having participation.  We also encourage kids bring non-4H members to participate in service and work projects.  At the beginning of the year, we schedule several events that all the members and their families can participate in.  In November, we decorate the local museum for Christmas and have chili afterwards.  In December, we carol at a nursing home, have a cookie exchange, and watch a movie while we eat pizza.  In January, we make cakes and serve dinner at a hospice fundraiser.  In February, we go bowling and out for ice cream.  In April we have a carnival with other clubs and in July we have a big picnic at a local park.  We also have several friendly competitions with other 4H clubs- which club will have the biggest turnout to an event, make the most money, complete the most service hours, complete the most projects, etc.

 

It is lots of work to have a successful club and takes lots of time but we really enjoy it.  Every year we send several kids to Washington DC for a leadership conference, participate in an exchange program with another state, send several kids to the mountains for a leadership camp, have club members volunteer at state fair, and we have some of the top demonstrations and projects in the state.

 

I hope you are able to figure out a way to get your 4H club to participate and be involved.  I recommend you contact your county extension office and maybe other clubs to see what works for them.

[Erin]

Don't you have entry forms for shows?  Are the Dc required to keep record books of their 4H year?  We've got that, plus a bunch of optional stuff we can participate in.  Besides our project area kids can submit any type of project to the county fair, though many of them have no idea.  

 

Of course.  But all of those things are things I do as a parent, not a leader.  As a leader, all I have to do is help kids with their projects, sign off on record books and make sure they know the whens and wheres for Fair.

[shanvan]

Of course.  But all of those things are things I do as a parent, not a leader.  As a leader, all I have to do is help kids with their projects, sign off on record books and make sure they know the whens and wheres for Fair.

But, they are ignoring this type of stuff too not just extra opportunities.  I wonder sometimes, if we are being so willing to help members, that the parents are just deciding they don't have to pay attention.  We went to a show with entries and it was fortunate that I had the forms with me, b/c none of the parents printed or filled out forms even though they were emailed, on the site, AND the group holding the show also gave them paper forms.  It is frustrating.  Plus I really like the kids and parents so I don't want to be in the position of haranguing them.