Another Homeschool Leader Scandal - TOS

[Corraleno]

One. I agree this is not a conviction. This isn't even a police report. I can't think why the hell I'd go to mediation of any damn kind if I KNEW my son was sexually molested?! It sounds like what this is is someone threatening with a lawyer and settling before it ever got to police so it wouldn't get to police.

 

 

Okay. But it doesn't sounds like she was under pressure. She left. Then she got a lawyer and they managed an "agreement". That apparently she is okay breaking now. So as far as I can tell, she needs to stop spouting off online or go to the police.

 

....

 

If nothing else, I would think her attorney would or should have informed her that she better be ready for court with these claims. Because if she doesn't take them to court, it's a sure bet they will take her to the cleaners.

 

The person who molested her son is her nephew, who was a teen at the time. The people she was in mediation with are her sister and BIL. In addition to the "spiritual" pressure she was under to not report the abuse (on the grounds that the nephew had "repented"), there was enormous family pressure not to "ruin her nephew's life," by branding him as a sex offender. 

 

From reading the article, I got the impression that she did not originally realize that the nephew had also molested other children, or perhaps the additional crimes occurred after her own child was molested. It was my impression that her reason for coming forward had to do with realizing that not only were her sister and BIL covering up for their own son, they had been covering up for two other, convicted pedophiles as well.

[SadieMarie]

I think a lot of this has more to do with the very hierarchical nature of so many Christian churches than homeschooling. Homeschooling is just a convenient way to have further control over members who are children or teens. Sorry, and I don't mean to offend anyone who is religious, but I really don't get the need to be subservient to a church, minister, religious group... It all seems very cultish and emotionally abusive (even when there is no physical or sexual abuse) to me.

[Murphy101]

The person who molested her son is her nephew, who was a teen at the time. The people she was in mediation with are her sister and BIL. In addition to the "spiritual" pressure she was under to not report the abuse (on the grounds that the nephew had "repented"), I'm sure there was enormous family pressure not to "ruin her nephew's life," by branding him as a sex offender.

 

From reading the article, I got the impression that she did not originally realize that the nephew had also molested other children, or perhaps the additional crimes occurred after her own child was molested. It was my impression that her reason for coming forward had to do with realizing that not only were her sister and BIL covering up for their own son, they had been covering up for two other, convicted pedophiles as well.

Okay. Tho I guess my biggest issue here is it's all impressions, so I'd stress again, she needs to go to the cops so facts can be presented and investigated.

 

Aside from that, I suppose it's hard for me bc I do not have close family ties other than dh and dc, so this still doesn't make sense to me personally.

 

I hope that she finds the peace to go to the police.

[Murphy101]

I think a lot of this has more to do with the very hierarchical nature of so many Christian churches than homeschooling. Homeschooling is just a convenient way to have further control over members who are children or teens. Sorry, and I don't mean to offend anyone who is religious, but I really don't get the need to be subservient to a church, minister, religious group... It all seems very cultish and emotionally abusive (even when there is no physical or sexual abuse) to me.

Meh. I don't think so. This crap is every where. Almost all social structures have some level of hierarchy to them. But this isn't about hierarchy to me. It's about circling the wagons to protect the wolf. Because the wolf has money or perceived social status usually.

[Audrey]

But why assume someone condones abuse or wouldn't act against it simply because they won't complain about it on a forum, with no further information?

 

 

You have absolutely, utterly and completely misunderstood and misrepresented what I said.  I said I think it is GOOD when people stand up.  That in no way implies that I am assuming someone who doesn't speak up is condoning anything.

 

Really.  Please read for at least some minimal comprehension before you go off assigning motives to someone. 

 

I'm quite offended at your accusation.  Quite.

[Murphy101]

Okay, I've read the article, I've been a member of this forum for a long time, and I thought I was pretty well informed, especially with regards to homeschool issues/information. But, I'm confused. What is the "Christian Homeschool Movement"??? I'm Christian, I homeschool, I belong to a homeschool group that is Christian-does that mean I'm part of this "movement"? I'm being totally serious here, not facetious. If there were any hint of sexual abuse in my hs group or church, I know I would not let the church or the group deal with it, believe me. And no one I know would believe in handling such things "internally".

I'm right there with you. But yeah, there's some people who are not there with us on that. And really I can't blame that on home schooling either. I hear in the news all the time about how a parent thought their child's teacher or coach or classmate did something violent to their child and they... Went to the principal? And I'm screaming at the tv or radio, Why?! The POLICE would be my first stop pronto.

 

smh

 

All

The

Time

 

I don't get it.

 

As for "Movements".

 

We've reached a point of just assuming they mean bowel movements bc it's highly likely they are full of poo.

 

Which is not to say I am against people championing a cause. I fine with it.

 

Doesn't mean I'm willing to jump in the fast moving bandwagon though. :)

[Catwoman]

Calm down and stop assigning motives to *me*, please. I was speaking generally, hence the use of 'someone'. And we will have to agree to disagree, because I see no good coming from generally airing ill-informed opinions to the ether of the Internet, as it were. This isn't victim advocacy, it's chatter and gossip.

 

Victim advocacy happens when we do less talking about what we'd do, and more acting when presented with the opportunity.

 

ETA - please excuse any missed typos.

We express our opinions here all the time. If you don't like "chatter and gossip," you're going to have to choose the threads you read very carefully.

 

If you truly object to what's being posted here, you should report the offending posts to the moderators so they can determine whether or not those posts are against board rules.

 

I'm honestly not trying to be rude here, but quoting scripture isn't going to make people do what you tell them to do.

[maize]

I'm thinking about this situation, and honestly if the offender were a teenage relative or close friend I don't know that I could take the situation to the police. I just don't know. I would have to if it were the best way to prevent a re-occurrence, to protect my own children and others, but it would break my heart. I have lots of nephews and care deeply for them.

 

I know adult molesters usually re-offend. Do teens usually re-offend? Are there successful remediation programs? What happens to a teenage offender in the judicial system?

 

What would you do if your own child were the offender? Sometimes I wish I could never let my children out of my sight. :(

[maize]

Double post

[SadieMarie]

Meh. I don't think so. This crap is every where. Almost all social structures have some level of hierarchy to them. But this isn't about hierarchy to me. It's about circling the wagons to protect the wolf. Because the wolf has money or perceived social status usually.

 

Parents usually are not silent about their children being abused to protect just any social structure.  Not every organization uses pressure and intimidation to protect an abusive member at the expense of a victim.  Controlling the victim is important for abusers and the more hierarchical the group the easier it is to do, assuming the abuser is higher in the hierarchy than the victim.  The more hierarchical the more likely for victims to be silenced with pressure or shame or whatever.  The wolf has more power in a very rigid hierarchy, or in this case, the wolf's parents.

 

And I am curious, what is the meaning/purpose of "meh"?

[Dory]

Who on earth would report posts on an Internet forum that don't violate the terms of service and are not personally abusive and vile?

 

I'm giving my opinion on why it is inappropriate to sit as judge and jury on something we have no authority or information to rightly do. And anyone who calls themselves Christian needs to think carefully how they approach both abuse and the accusation of it at a distance.

 

I'm quoting scripture because my own authority on a subject means nothing. But the Word of God is authoritative and speaks to this issue. I didn't post it here to censure the other posters but as a consideration for those who confess Christ and are quick to jump on a story like this. For those without that accountability it wouldn't really apply, though the basic wisdom of speaking little in the presence of incomplete information is solid advice for all men at all times, lest we look like fools.

 

(and I say that as someone who must watch that very issue carefully, in myself!)

 

I do understand what you are saying, and being careful not to slander someone verbally without any real knowledge of what's going on is difficult. On the other hand though, the tendency of Christians to talk with the pastor first or the offending family and work for 'reconciliation' usually ends up with things like this being hushed. The victim ends up further victimized and pushed into silence because they have to 'forgive' and other victims are then stuck in their shame because they are too scared to come out.

I've seen it a couple times and I've lived it.

[Murphy101]

Beware bandwagons, for sure. I've always wondered what exactly the Christian homeschooling movement is, as well. And my husband had parents who attended an ATI seminar, too. They still weren't part of any higher movement or organization, they were just believers who wanted a good education and upbringing for their children and did the best they could with the resources they had. We, too, want to raise our children well academically, religiously, and socially. But as far as I can tell we're just a family of Christians who homeschool.

 

If someone can actually explain the difference I'd find that very helpful. And I say that without jesting.

I have no idea how they view themselves.

 

For me, the header is they view home schooling as their religious mission. And thus their homeschool group is their religious mission. And thus for them home schooling academics takes second, third, or fourth seat to their real mission. And when that happens they start to act like their homeschool business, magazine, "support" group, and coops are not really about academics. It's an extension of church. It's more like a congregation meeting than teachers. And if you don't believe lock step with them, then you risk being excommunicated from the community that isolated you from the greater community. Which can be rather unnerving for many. You are frowned at if you don't do business with others in the group. But if others in the business don't act professional, you are also admonished for not treating them in Christian charity if you speak up about it. And so forth.

 

So in that sense, I completely understand her saying home schooling is not church. And I agree with her. And that attitude in many Christian home school groups is why I am no longer a part of any of them.

[BrookValley.]

I'm thinking about this situation, and honestly if the offender were a teenage relative or close friend I don't know that I could take the situation to the police. I just don't know. I would have to if it were the best way to prevent a re-occurrence, to protect my own children and others, but it would break my heart. I have lots of nephews and care deeply for them.

 

I know adult molesters usually re-offend. Do teens usually re-offend? Are there successful remediation programs? What happens to a teenage offender in the judicial system?

 

What would you do if your own child were the offender? Sometimes I wish I could never let my children out of my sight. :(

Obviously the breach in trust adds another layer, I get that, but no. You don't think about *not* calling the police if your child has been sexually abused.

[Catwoman]

Who on earth would report posts on an Internet forum that don't violate the terms of service and are not personally abusive and vile?

I'm giving my opinion on why it is inappropriate to sit as judge and jury on something we have no authority or information to rightly do. And anyone who calls themselves Christian needs to think carefully how they approach both abuse and the accusation of it at a distance.

I'm quoting scripture because my own authority on a subject means nothing. But the Word of God is authoritative and speaks to this issue. I didn't post it here to censure the other posters but as a consideration for those who confess Christ and are quick to jump on a story like this. For those without that accountability it wouldn't really apply, though the basic wisdom of speaking little in the presence of incomplete information is solid advice for all men at all times, lest we look like fools.

(and I say that as someone who must watch that very issue carefully, in myself!)

You seem to have no problem "sitting judge and jury" on many of us. :glare:

 

I'm not sure why you feel the need to be the Christian police and quote the "Word of God" to try to shame the people who feel it's perfectly acceptable to discuss this topic.

 

Again, I would suggest you report any posts you find offensive. The moderators are the Word of Authority here.

[Crimson Wife]

I'm fine with "church justice" when the scandals involve consenting adults. Adultery, homosexuality, etc. may be immoral by Biblical standards but they aren't illegal in this country. But when the scandals involve allegations of criminal behavior, then that is a matter for the police to handle rather than the church.

[maize]

Obviously the breach in trust adds another layer, I get that, but no. You don't think about *not* calling the police if your child has been sexually abused.

What if you learned that your twelve year old had molested your ten year old. Would you call the police?

[Lavandula]

Obviously the breach in trust adds another layer, I get that, but no. You don't think about *not* calling the police if your child has been sexually abused.

Yep. I was abused as a child and everyone I knew was so busy worrying about the abuser's future that they forgot about me. I've heard lots of other stories about this happening. I believe the re-offending rate is about half that of an adult's after remediation programs, but I'd rather let the court handle that. As a parent it's your job to watch out for your child, not teach them that if someone hurts them they won't even be brought to the police. 

[Audrey]

I'm thinking about this situation, and honestly if the offender were a teenage relative or close friend I don't know that I could take the situation to the police. I just don't know. I would have to if it were the best way to prevent a re-occurrence, to protect my own children and others, but it would break my heart. I have lots of nephews and care deeply for them.

 

I know adult molesters usually re-offend. Do teens usually re-offend? Are there successful remediation programs? What happens to a teenage offender in the judicial system?

 

What would you do if your own child were the offender? Sometimes I wish I could never let my children out of my sight. :(

 

 

I think it is definitely one of those situations that you just don't know how you'd feel or what you'd do unless it happened to you.  It's certainly disturbing enough to read about, and very complicated because of the family dynamics involved. 

[AlmiraGulch]

What if you learned that your twelve year old had molested your ten year old. Would you call the police?

 

Yes.  It's criminal activity.  To NOT call is to further victimize the abused, and denies the abuser, especially one that young, the opportunity to receive help.  

 

It's not easy, by any means.  But yes, I would absolutely report it.  No question.  

[Lavandula]

Yes.  It's criminal activity.  To NOT call is to further victimize the abused, and denies the abuser, especially one that young, the opportunity to receive help.  

 

It's not easy, by any means.  But yes, I would absolutely report it.  No question.  

I'd do the same. I'd probably need therapy after for the guilt alone but it'd be the right thing to do. 

[SproutMamaK]

I'm giving my opinion on why it is inappropriate to sit as judge and jury on something we have no authority or information to rightly do. And anyone who calls themselves Christian needs to think carefully how they approach both abuse and the accusation of it at a distance.

 

 

 

That's exactly what I see largely going on this thread. People are discussing the issue of what they believe should be done in this situation and how it should be responded to, with the information they have available. Why is bringing up an issue that's been brought to light and talking about its ramifications, considering how one would respond in the same situation, etc, a bad thing? How are we to learn how to address issues like these if we're afraid to discuss them because it's "gossip", even if it involves people we don't know personally? The fact that this is happening so often shows that it's an issue that needs MORE open discussion and forthrightness in the homeschooling community, not less. There is a difference between personal malicious gossip and the discussion of an issue that deeply affects a community.

[BrookValley.]

What if you learned that your twelve year old had molested your ten year old. Would you call the police?

 

Yes, I would. I don't know if the police specifically would be the correct agency to handle a case with such a young child (I just have no idea. Never thought about it. Obviously you don't put 12-year old kids in jail), but yes, I would report--to whomever I needed to report it to. Would it be the hardest thing I've ever dealt with as a parent? I imagine so. But you have to protect your child, the victim. I just don't see why it would be a question.

[Seasider]

I'd do the same. I'd probably need therapy after for the guilt alone but it'd be the right thing to do.

I agree. I would HATE having to do it, and would do it very carefully, but I would see it as a way for both children to get the protection and counseling they need. I would hate for my older child to suffer, but if not reported, how could I leave the younger child feeling like there were no justice in the world, and no parental protection?

 

Also, legal issues down the road from not reporting might open a whole nother can of worms.

 

What a horribly difficult situation, both the hypothetical one and the one TOS family found themselves in. There's no good outcome, but we can pray for a just one.

[HS Mom in NC]

I'm fine with "church justice" when the scandals involve consenting adults. Adultery, homosexuality, etc. may be immoral by Biblical standards but they aren't illegal in this country. But when the scandals involve allegations of criminal behavior, then that is a matter for the police to handle rather than the church.

 

I agree.  I'm also not worried about what someone posts on a blog or types on a website.  I hope "standing up" means filing a police report and law enforcement investigating it and bringing it to court.

 

I have a pastor who has said to someone who came to him for counseling about his "sin issue" (abusing his wife) "Well brother, I'll pray for you and visit you in prison.  Now I'm calling the police."

 

We had a situation where a registered sex offender was out on parole and wanted to attend services.  The same pastor agreed to let him attend if he showed up with his mother as an escort who never left him alone or if she couldn't, he could arrange for a deacon to escort him while on the property, he couldn't use the restroom (he didn't live far away so it wasn't a problem) he had to come in at the beginning of the service and leave immediately after (no milling around before or after services) and he could only start attending after all the parents had been called to a meeting and shown his picture and have the situation explained to them.  That's how a church handles that situation responsibly.

[*Lulu*]

Calm down and stop assigning motives to *me*, please. I was speaking generally, hence the use of 'someone'. And we will have to agree to disagree, because I see no good coming from generally airing ill-informed opinions to the ether of the Internet, as it were. This isn't victim advocacy, it's chatter and gossip.

 

Victim advocacy happens when we do less talking about what we'd do, and more acting when presented with the opportunity.

 

ETA - please excuse any missed typos.

Victim advocacy is good. When you have someone in your life who has trusted you with the information that they have been victimized, being a support and allowing them to be at whatever point in he healing process they may be without shame is beyond wonderful. When you have the opportunity to speak to the culture of secrecy that manifests in many institutions, including the church, when you can shine a light on that darkness that has silenced so many over the years, when you can help to change attitudes which in time leads to a change of culture....

 

Do you know how we get to a place where sexual abuse is not tolerated? Do you know how we create an atmosphere that bolsters and protects those who are hurt and shelters them while they heal? Do you know how we end up with a society that refuses to allow evil to fester in dark shadows?

 

Me either.

 

Not talking about it won't get us there any faster.

 

Although, our lack of "gossip" may allow us to feel extra pious as we go about our silent treatment of the injured among us.

[HS Mom in NC]

 

What would you do if your own child were the offender?

 

I would turn my child in.  I've told my kids not to break the law, but if they choose to ignore my advice and break the law anyway I have told them will not bail them out and I advise them to confess what they did to the judge because it's the right thing to do.  If I know about it, I'll turn them in.  If I want someone turned in who was a threat to me or my loved ones then I have to be willing to turn in my own kid when she's been a threat to others.  Hopefully, if it ever happens, it will be a wake up call and motivate them to change their ways.

[Lavandula]

Hm, I did read the article now and I recognize that magazine. We saw it at a homeschooling convention (conference? I don't know what you'd call it) and it was being sold or given away at a table with people who were trying to convince me that I was a bad person for vaccinating DD. We made our excuses and got away from that, so I never ended up reading any of it.

[LucyStoner]

I'm thinking about this situation, and honestly if the offender were a teenage relative or close friend I don't know that I could take the situation to the police. I just don't know. I would have to if it were the best way to prevent a re-occurrence, to protect my own children and others, but it would break my heart. I have lots of nephews and care deeply for them.

 

I know adult molesters usually re-offend. Do teens usually re-offend? Are there successful remediation programs? What happens to a teenage offender in the judicial system?

 

What would you do if your own child were the offender? Sometimes I wish I could never let my children out of my sight. :(

People who start when they are teens generally keep on and frequently escalate as they become more savvy and confident they won't get caught.

 

The best chance for successful treatment is treatment when the offender is young.

 

The sad fact is that a 14 year old offender was probably a 6 year old victim himself. It is an epidemic.

 

I don't care who the offender is or how closely related I am to them. Anyone who sexually assaults my child? Their very best chance is the criminal justice system. They are safer with the police in jail than they are where I could get to them. I hope I would have the self control to call the police rather than grab my baseball bat and have at it.

[Crimson Wife]

What if you learned that your twelve year old had molested your ten year old. Would you call the police?

 

The twelve y.o. would need psychiatric treatment, and the psychiatrist would presumably report the abuse.

[Lavandula]

The twelve y.o. would need psychiatric treatment, and the psychiatrist would presumably report the abuse.

I can't believe I even forgot about that. I was assuming the alternative would be therapy, but yes, therapists are legally obligated (at least where I live although I'd think it'd be most everywhere) to contact the authorities if they believe someone's in danger.

[MrsJewelsRae]

Those poor kids. :( I've only been receiving TOS feed on Facebook for about a year and I've never seen anything supportive of the Pearls or I would have dropped them like a rock. I don't associate with businesses that condone Pearls. I will be un-liking TOS page right away, unless it comes out that all the allegations are false. I don't read the magazine, maybe an occasional article linked on fb, I'd rather not be associated with them right now. Thanks for sharing, I hope the truth comes to light.

[Laurie4b]

You could report sexual touching of a 10 year old by a 12 year old, but it is doubtful that it would be considered a crime without physical coercion and force. Mental health professionals would also evaluate through a similar lens. 

http://focus.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?articleid=53036 

[Lavandula]

You could report sexual touching of a 10 year old by a 12 year old, but it is doubtful that it would be considered a crime without physical coercion and force. Mental health professionals would also evaluate through a similar lens. 

http://focus.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?articleid=53036

The question said molestation, which means it's forceful or coerced. 

[Laurie4b]

People who start when they are teens generally keep on and frequently escalate as they become more savvy and confident they won't get caught.

 

The best chance for successful treatment is treatment when the offender is young.

 

The sad fact is that a 14 year old offender was probably a 6 year old victim himself. It is an epidemic.

 

I don't care who the offender is or how closely related I am to them. Anyone who sexually assaults my child? Their very best chance is the criminal justice system. They are safer with the police in jail than they are where I could get to them. I hope I would have the self control to call the police rather than grab my baseball bat and have at it.

 

A teen offender is typically not the same as an adult offender. There are some teens who are (ie who are pedophiles, or are sadistic, etc), but by no means all--probably not even most. Other factors may drive teen offenders, which, while the behavior may fall under the same label of "molestation",  the underlying issues are different and thus the prognosis is different.

The bolded is not backed up by clinical research. http://http://www.dshs.wa.gov/pdf/ca/NCSBYfactsheet.pdf  The converse however, is true: pedophiles usually do start as teens . There is beginning to be some literature suggesting that pedophilia is an innate sexual orientation. (That is new, not established, just suggested research findings.)

 

 

 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2922753/  This paper states: "Another problem with the predominant approaches to treatment is the fact that many sexually offending youths desist from future offending (even in the absence of intervention)."  It also expresses ethical concerns about current treatment (or lack thereof) and the possibility of iatrogenic effects of group treatment.

 

A good number of teen offenders are not pedophiles and will not become pedophiles. They are experimenting with sexuality in a way that is less risky to them than experimenting with peers. Yes, it is wrong. It can certainly feel the same way to the child as other types of sexual abuse, although when the teen isn't doing it for sexual gratification, it is often more brief and not as intrusive in nature. (ie brief touching not penetration) and it's possible that the child who was molested may not need much treatment in these situations. When this is the what is behind the inappropriate touching, there is a very good chance that the teen will either stop on their own or will respond to treatment. I have discussed this issue personally with one of the leading child trauma clinicians/researchers in the US because of a specific case I was working on. Of course if a teen is a pedophile, then that is a different issue. There is some suggestion in the literature now that pedophilia may be an innate sexual orientation.

 

One reason that people need to know this is because teens are higher risk for inappropriate touching than the very same teen will be once they are an adult. Because of my mental health work with perpetrators as well as victims, I did not have teenager babysitters (including girls) and I did not let my teens babysit. Just didn't want to present the occasion.

 

I hope readers won't misread what I've written here. I do not condone child molestation or cover-up. Molestation is always to be taken seriously. But taking it seriously means dealing with it in its complexity. And popular knowledge isn't always consistent with what is actually the state of clinical research and debate. (Research is always debated! )  The clinical issues are more complex and less black-and-white than popular beliefs.  I did a quick google search to find research consistent with the professional knowledge I gleaned while in mental health so that people can read for themselves.

 

For any situation involving molestation, it's important for the adult to remain calm, to listen carefully to the child's story, to remain calm, to believe the child,  to listen to the child's emotional reaction, to remain calm, and to figure out the best way to support the child. Taking the child to a therapist trained in sexual abuse for an evaluation is a good step. It is also very important that the adult not impose their adult interpretation and level of naturally strong emotion (whether fear, disgust, rage, etc)  on the child victim. The child can absorb the level of angst the adult is feeling and it can create or add to trauma. Adults may need their own therapist to enable them to do that. It is as important to avoid over-reaction (ie imposing an adult interpretation and emotions)  as under-reaction (not taking the situation seriously)

 

Quite a tightrope for a parent to walk.

[LucyStoner]

I was thinking of rapists. I personally don't like the tendency to label sex crimes against children as "molestation."

[poppy]

Sexual assault is not 'experimenting sexually' in a legal or moral stance.

 

If a teen steals my car, I know that doesn't mean necessarily he has a lifetime if theft in front if him. I'd still call the police. Why on earth would someone raping a child be not reported? Why is the future of the rapist of primary concern? Being sexually assaulted is devastating. Seeing people people work hard to protect the offender is not less devastating to the victim.

[JuanitaL]

Victim advocacy is good. When you have someone in your life who has trusted you with the information that they have been victimized, being a support and allowing them to be at whatever point in he healing process they may be without shame is beyond wonderful. When you have the opportunity to speak to the culture of secrecy that manifests in many institutions, including the church, when you can shine a light on that darkness that has silenced so many over the years, when you can help to change attitudes which in time leads to a change of culture....

 

Do you know how we get to a place where sexual abuse is not tolerated? Do you know how we create an atmosphere that bolsters and protects those who are hurt and shelters them while they heal? Do you know how we end up with a society that refuses to allow evil to fester in dark shadows?

 

Me either.

 

Not talking about it won't get us there any faster.

 

Although, our lack of "gossip" may allow us to feel extra pious as we go about our silent treatment of the injured among us.

 

Excellent. Especially the bolded.

 

[maize]

I was thinking of rapists. I personally don't like the tendency to label sex crimes against children as "molestation."

I was not necessarily thinking of rape, molestation can include a wide variety of behaviors. Maybe more specific terminology would be helpful. In the case cited at the beginning of the thread, for example, we don't know exactly what form the abuse took or how severe it was. Any sexual molestation is a problem, but not every case is equal.

[maize]

A teen offender is typically not the same as an adult offender. There are some teens who are (ie who are pedophiles, or are sadistic, etc), but by no means all--probably not even most. Other factors may drive teen offenders, which, while the behavior may fall under the same label of "molestation", the underlying issues are different and thus the prognosis is different.

The bolded is not backed up by clinical research. http://http://www.dshs.wa.gov/pdf/ca/NCSBYfactsheet.pdf The converse however, is true: pedophiles usually do start as teens . There is beginning to be some literature suggesting that pedophilia is an innate sexual orientation. (That is new, not established, just suggested research findings.)

 

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2922753/ This paper states: "Another problem with the predominant approaches to treatment is the fact that many sexually offending youths desist from future offending (even in the absence of intervention)." It also expresses ethical concerns about current treatment (or lack thereof) and the possibility of iatrogenic effects of group treatment.

 

A good number of teen offenders are not pedophiles and will not become pedophiles. They are experimenting with sexuality in a way that is less risky to them than experimenting with peers. Yes, it is wrong. It can certainly feel the same way to the child as other types of sexual abuse, although when the teen isn't doing it for sexual gratification, it is often more brief and not as intrusive in nature. (ie brief touching not penetration) and it's possible that the child who was molested may not need much treatment in these situations. When this is the what is behind the inappropriate touching, there is a very good chance that the teen will either stop on their own or will respond to treatment. I have discussed this issue personally with one of the leading child trauma clinicians/researchers in the US because of a specific case I was working on. Of course if a teen is a pedophile, then that is a different issue. There is some suggestion in the literature now that pedophilia may be an innate sexual orientation.

 

One reason that people need to know this is because teens are higher risk for inappropriate touching than the very same teen will be once they are an adult. Because of my mental health work with perpetrators as well as victims, I did not have teenager babysitters (including girls) and I did not let my teens babysit. Just didn't want to present the occasion.

 

I hope readers won't misread what I've written here. I do not condone child molestation or cover-up. Molestation is always to be taken seriously. But taking it seriously means dealing with it in its complexity. And popular knowledge isn't always consistent with what is actually the state of clinical research and debate. (Research is always debated! ) The clinical issues are more complex and less black-and-white than popular beliefs. I did a quick google search to find research consistent with the professional knowledge I gleaned while in mental health so that people can read for themselves.

 

For any situation involving molestation, it's important for the adult to remain calm, to listen carefully to the child's story, to remain calm, to believe the child, to listen to the child's emotional reaction, to remain calm, and to figure out the best way to support the child. Taking the child to a therapist trained in sexual abuse for an evaluation is a good step. It is also very important that the adult not impose their adult interpretation and level of naturally strong emotion (whether fear, disgust, rage, etc) on the child victim. The child can absorb the level of angst the adult is feeling and it can create or add to trauma. Adults may need their own therapist to enable them to do that. It is as important to avoid over-reaction (ie imposing an adult interpretation and emotions) as under-reaction (not taking the situation seriously)

 

Quite a tightrope for a parent to walk.

Thank you, this post us very helpful.

[G5052]

I was not necessarily thinking of rape, molestation can include a wide variety of behaviors. Maybe more specific terminology would be helpful. In the case cited at the beginning of the thread, for example, we don't know exactly what form the abuse took or how severe it was. Any sexual molestation is a problem, but not every case is equal.

 

Yes, that's the difficulty.  How many times and how far?  It's still wrong and makes me mad, but we really don't know the details (maybe that's best though since the law doesn't seem to be involved here).

 

In my state the registry includes one-time offenders who got caught, which include statutory r*pe.  So you could be 18 and think she's 16, and end up on the registry if you're convicted.  That's very different than someone dealing in child p*rn.

[sunflowerlady]

From my perspective, the issue of these scandals is not that they are homeschooling movement scandals They are part of a much wider issue in the conservative/fundamental Christian community.  A little time spent online researching will reveal that there a great number of cases over they years where Pastors or church members have committed various crimes and/or immoral acts and it is swept under the rug.  Or at least, there is the attempt to sweep it under the rug. Then when people take notice and call attention to it, they are scolded as being gossips, being "bitter" or otherwise trying to "harm the cause of Christ".  

 

So you see, the problem is not seen as being the abuse , it is those pesky people who have the nerve to point out the abuse. Those people who won't just move along because there is really nothing to see here.

 

 

[ktgrok]

Who on earth would report posts on an Internet forum that don't violate the terms of service and are not personally abusive and vile?

 

I'm giving my opinion on why it is inappropriate to sit as judge and jury on something we have no authority or information to rightly do. And anyone who calls themselves Christian needs to think carefully how they approach both abuse and the accusation of it at a distance.

 

I'm quoting scripture because my own authority on a subject means nothing. But the Word of God is authoritative and speaks to this issue. I didn't post it here to censure the other posters but as a consideration for those who confess Christ and are quick to jump on a story like this. For those without that accountability it wouldn't really apply, though the basic wisdom of speaking little in the presence of incomplete information is solid advice for all men at all times, lest we look like fools.

 

(and I say that as someone who must watch that very issue carefully, in myself!)

 

No one has convicted anyone. We are not discussing, for the most part, guilt or innocence. We are discussing trends, and how these kinds of thing sshould be handled in a general sense, not so much a specific sense. 

[Laurie4b]

Sexual assault is not 'experimenting sexually' in a legal or moral stance.

 

If a teen steals my car, I know that doesn't mean necessarily he has a lifetime if theft in front if him. I'd still call the police. Why on earth would someone raping a child be not reported? Why is the future of the rapist of primary concern? Being sexually assaulted is devastating. Seeing people people work hard to protect the offender is not less devastating to the victim.

 

If you are responding to what I posted,  people are using terms differently. Both the article the OP posted and Maize (who asked a hypothetical about reporting a 12 year old  molesting  his 10 year old brother) used the term  molestation, which is very broad . It is a general term, and is used clinically, but is not a clinical diagosis. it covers pretty much any kind of sexual contact, from brief contact with private parts that lasts seconds to rape. It is not usually the legal term used, but may be in some states.

 

Sexual assault is a legal term and in most states, is the term used for *any* touching of private parts, including rape, but also including touch that lasts a few seconds.  And "experimenting sexually" is exactly what is often in play with teenagers who are molesting. (Obviously, this is not always the case.) This type does not always even involve any kind of sexual gratification at times in this context and often produces no more angst in the child than getting kissed by an uncle with a full beard or having someone older take a toy. As long as it is stopped and cannot escalate, some children may be evaluated by well qualified professionals and not be found in need of treatment if the form was mild.  I am saying this from professional experience working with both victims and perpetrators. Upthread I linked an article that mentions this phenomenon for teens.

 

Sexual assault as different classifications of degree, with rape being the most severe.

 

So when the person proposed the hyphothetical about whether you as a parent would report molestation of a10 year old by his 12 year old brother, I linked an article that indicated that at that age, it's unlikely to be a crime unless there was physical force used and mental health professionals would also likely not label it or treat it as a sex offense from a mental health point of view, either. That judgment would be run through a variety of professional grids of course. I was just pointing out the reality of the types of things professionals use in their judgment. Age span is a very important one.

 

 

[maize]

From my perspective, the issue of these scandals is not that they are homeschooling movement scandals They are part of a much wider issue in the conservative/fundamental Christian community. A little time spent online researching will reveal that there a great number of cases over they years where Pastors or church members have committed various crimes and/or immoral acts and it is swept under the rug. Or at least, there is the attempt to sweep it under the rug. Then when people take notice and call attention to it, they are scolded as being gossips, being "bitter" or otherwise trying to "harm the cause of Christ".

 

So you see, the problem is not seen as being the abuse , it is those pesky people who have the nerve to point out the abuse. Those people who won't just move along because there is really nothing to see here.

I think a tendency to sweep things under the rug exists in most if not all organizations. Universities, sports programs, scouting programs, and the military are just a few of the places I can think of where similar problems have been uncovered in recent years.

[Aura]

Having a BTDT perspective, if children, even younger teens, are involved in sexual inappropriateness with one another, I would certainly pause to evaluate the situation before involving any outside authorities. Kids do things, they experiment sexually....they play "doctor." If it is between kids, then you need to really talk things through and find out what's going on FIRST.

 

So, yeah, if two kids were in my own family, I would definitely talk things through before automatically going to the police.

 

This doesn't mean that teens can't abuse younger children. It just means that the situation requires a bit different evaluation than if adults were involved. And I would include any teen over 16 as an adult. 

 

In this TOS case, I don't blame the parents for trying to work through something that at the time, they may have viewed as immature, inappropriate sexual behavior involving children. (14 year olds can be VERY immature, depending on the child, IMO) So, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt for not first involving police right away.

 

However, this tendency to cover things up and protect the accused is definitely a problem in our society, not just in religious groups but also in any organization that involves children: all flavors of schools, academic organizations, camps, etc.

[SadieMarie]

Also, in terms of molestation vs experimentation, the age difference is important. A ten and twelve year old together is going to be a very different power dynamic than a six year old and a teen, very different.

[Lavandula]

When I responded to the molestation question, I certainly wasn't thinking of any kid just experimenting sexually. Around here at least, 12 is 7th grade. I strongly believe the majority (of course there are exceptions) of 7th graders are mature enough not to touch a 5th grader sexually. I played doctor too. But I was in elementary school, and it was with people my age. I cringe thinking back on it, but I don't feel it was forced or coerced. I'd be inclined to think any touching between a 7th grader and an elementary schooler is coerced. A 7th grader is a child, most definitely. But generally they are on a very different level than a 5th grader. My husband now is a few years older and of course it doesn't seem strange at all. But I do remember crushes when I was younger.. Back then even a kid a grade ahead of or below me seemed a world apart. Maybe I'm basing this too heavily off personal experience, but I just think people aren't fully considering how far apart most 12 and 10 year olds really are. It's only 2 years, yes, but there is a very big difference in my eyes. 

[Aura]

Absolutely a two year age gap between any kids indicates that there was very likely coercion involved, and as I understand it, the age gap was even greater in the TOS story, but IMO, it doesn't necessarily mean that the police need to be involved. As Laurie4b pointed out, it could be making the situation worse for the victim.

 

I'm just saying that I don't think it was necessarily bad that the couple didn't first go to the police, that's all. 

[LucyStoner]

For something to be sexual experimentation, consent is necessary. 14 year olds without any developmental issues are old enough to know that 6 year olds can't consent. Teaching consent and mutuality is a core component of what parents need to teach their teens about sex.

[flyingiguana]

There should be a pamphlet available so that I never again have to explain the difference between "Christian Homeschoolers" and Christians who homeschool.

 

How about an internet meme?  They travel faster and reach more people.