Parenting bias (s/o equal footing & gentle parenting)

[Guest]

and how do your kids get discipline and structure if you don't require respect from them?

Katy, I would like to discuss this a bit.

 

"discipline" has the same root as "disciple." It is the Latin word for student, discipula. So to discipline my children is to teach them. When I interact with them, I keep this idea at the fore - I am teaching them to be capable, kind, polite, useful and decent people. Not to say I do this flawlessly or never screw up. But, for example, in my example of telling them to clean up from lunch, I'm teaching them that I feel taken advantage of if I clean up their lunch mess and my need for order is such that I require a neat kitchen. So, in practice, I didn't say, "if any of you make a lunch mess and fail to clean it up, that person will go nowhere for a week!" This would be useless on several levels, not the least of which is the kids are then adversaries with each other, bickering about who left the mayonnaise knife on the counter and who failed to put the bread away. I left the details for them to work out. I don't care if they rotate clean up by weekday, do Rock, Paper, Scissors for the jobs, or each split the job how they want. I don't even care if the teenagers wanted to pay the youngest to do it, as long as the youngest chooses the terms of payment. I'm just teaching them that I am not the personal maid of able-bodied children.

 

Structure - there are structure-related things that I require; some, more than others who see themselves as gentle parents. I am not an unschooler, for instance. My kids have some choice and flexibility in their studies, for example, DS14 is using Teaching Textbooks for Algebra, where I didn't use it with my oldest, but they must work in the subjects I require, favorite or not. However, I would investigate change if a subject or curricula was causing them obvious distress. So, yes, I impose structure at times, but I am also open to altering it is it's causing some sort of distress.

[bolt.]

My kids get structure and discipline in a few ways...

 

In addition to "setting the boundaries" as a parent I actually "am the boundary" whenever nessisary. This results in young children who are very accustomed to not actually being capable of transgressing boundaries -- which is an illusion, sometimes, but is generally true.

 

I teach through role play and catch phases various ways of replacing specific misbehaviour with specific good behaviour, adopting a supportive attitude that is helpful and kind throughout the learning process. Usually kids are happy to learn and grow and please their parents when it is presented this way. I start with their current skill level, and raise expectations in slow increments emphasizing keeping those expectations reasonable and attainable at every stage.

 

I structure the days and our environment is ways that make it easier to meet expectations and experience success. Structure is highly important. Often misbehaviour happens when kids are at loose ends, over their head socially, and getting slightly less supervision than they would thrive under (on a per-circumstance basis).

 

I do "require respect" -- I require it by actually being in charge and having the power to engine my wishes... I just try to use that side of things somewhat sparingly, and without a sense of adversarial-ness. My kids are used to respecting me, and consider it perfectly normal. Not respecting me is something that they have never experienced because it has never been an option.

 

I don't "require respect" because I am having a reaction to a child... I "require respect" because a child sometimes needs a wiser head to prevail -- even when they don't know that they need that, and don't like it at the time.

[shawthorne44]

You know how some people SAY that they are homeschooling, but really their kids don't do any school at all?   I am not talking about unschoolers.  I am talking about non-schoolers.  

 

These parents are SAYING that they are gentle parents, but are truly not parenting.  

[Leav97]

I treat the lady at the post office with respect.

I treat my community codes officer with respect.

I treat my district superintendent with respect.

 

I can't STAND any of the three.  I follow the social constructs in order to make my life go more smoothly, but I have very little respect for any of them.  That is not what I want from a parent/child relationship.

 

I see this is polite not respect.  It's the difference between holding someone in esteem and showing good manners.  If you can't stand them are you really holding them in esteem?

[goldberry]

I love threads like this.  It really illustrates how much I have learned from these boards.  As the OP said, we all have our biases based on the (often limited) experiences we have had.  Another poster mentioned how one person defines something is not the same as another person defines it.  These things have been a huge learning experience for me!  How much better to look at someone's actual behavior rather than what they are calling it or label it.  So many people of extremes just use labels to try to justify their behavior.

 

Thanks for sharing all your experiences....

 

   

[Leav97]

There are times when parents have modeled respect--being kind, listening politely, helping, living decently, having good balance between self and others--and their child is still disrespectful.

 

There is no formula to parenting that will, without fail, produce loving, kind, respectful (see above), decent kids.

There is choice involved.

 

I just think that is important to emphasize.

 

Sometimes a disrespectful human being is not a reflection of how she was parented.

 

:iagree:

 

Clicking like just isn't enough.  I hate it when people\books pretend there is a magic formula to creating perfect kids.

[Joshin]

I got some flack on here a few years ago when I posted about kids and respect. I grew up in a regional culture where respect was demanded of kids but kids were too young to have "earned" any respect of their own. My own family was not like that and I had issues with the whole "respect your elders" position. With my kids, I went with the "be polite to everyone until they prove they deserve otherwise."

 

I have no clue what my parenting style is. We don't spank and we rarely discipline, yet those who don't know us well think we are very strict because of how well my kids behave (in public at least :001_rolleyes: ), but I couldn't tell you the last time my kids were disciplined for anything.

 

I guess I am a "routine" style parent. I personally need routine and rhythm to function well. I keep my own life scheduled and very organized or I will just fall apart. So I naturally kept routine with the kids. Bedtime was at a certain time and I was strict about that, but they didn't have to go to sleep. Lights, toys, books -- I didn't care as long as they were in their room and quiet at bed time. Time for a meal but not hungry? That's wonderful but you still have to sit down with the family. I wasn't ever big on the arbitrary "no." Even when young they got an explanation as to why (although it was after the fact if it was a safety issue). Just about everything in our house is open for discussion, but the kids know that the parents have final decision making authority. I'm almost a free-range parent, because my kids have a lot of freedom as long as they keep us informed at all times.

 

We allow discussion but not arguments. We hug it out. I've been known to bribe my kids on occasion. We encourage the kids to make their own decisions with our advice. We set clear expectations and allow for the natural consequences. We mess up sometimes and we own up to it and apologize.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Being home schoolers, I tend to interact with people who have more rules for their kids, not less, so those are literally my only (very biased) examples.  I did have not-close friends in school though with very relaxed parents with no rules, and most of them were literally having rainbow (TEA) parties at 12 years old with 17 & 18 year old boys.  The thought of that going on with sixth graders horrifies me.

 

That sounds a bit odd considering the "rainbow parties" hysteria was based on an urban legend.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_party_%28sexuality%29

[mommymilkies]

I got some flack on here a few years ago when I posted about kids and respect. I grew up in a regional culture where respect was demanded of kids but kids were too young to have "earned" any respect of their own. My own family was not like that and I had issues with the whole "respect your elders" position. With my kids, I went with the "be polite to everyone until they prove they deserve otherwise."

 

I have no clue what my parenting style is. We don't spank and we rarely discipline, yet those who don't know us well think we are very strict because of how well my kids behave (in public at least :001_rolleyes: ), but I couldn't tell you the last time my kids were disciplined for anything.

 

I guess I am a "routine" style parent. I personally need routine and rhythm to function well. I keep my own life scheduled and very organized or I will just fall apart. So I naturally kept routine with the kids. Bedtime was at a certain time and I was strict about that, but they didn't have to go to sleep. Lights, toys, books -- I didn't care as long as they were in their room and quiet at bed time. Time for a meal but not hungry? That's wonderful but you still have to sit down with the family. I wasn't ever big on the arbitrary "no." Even when young they got an explanation as to why (although it was after the fact if it was a safety issue). Just about everything in our house is open for discussion, but the kids know that the parents have final decision making authority. I'm almost a free-range parent, because my kids have a lot of freedom as long as they keep us informed at all times.

 

We allow discussion but not arguments. We hug it out. I've been known to bribe my kids on occasion. We encourage the kids to make their own decisions with our advice. We set clear expectations and allow for the natural consequences. We mess up sometimes and we own up to it and apologize.

Oh yes, wonderfully said.  Thank you, that explains me a lot, too.  I have to have routine.  Dh and the kids know I get twitchy when my routine is even slightly disturbed.  A few of my kids are the same way.  I'll hear about it for weeks if I move the pencils to a new shelf.  Seriously.  I tell them why, but especially when you have a bunch of kids, rhythm and routine are extremely useful and most kids thrive on it.  And I'm pretty sure a set bedtime is the only way I've kept my sanity over the years.  Kids need a break from parents and parents need a break from kids. 

[AimeeM]

Interesting Cat.

 

I don't want that kind of relationship with my kids either, but it's not what I'd call respect.  Respect as I was taught it has nothing to do with relationship.  It's more a polite deference given to someone by virtue of their position, whether I personally think they deserve it or not.  For example, despite the fact that I voted for him at least once, I'm not particularly happy with President Obama's job performance.  I personally don't like him at all, actually.  But I respect him by virtue of being in the office, and I would be extremely polite if for some reason I met him again.

 

I expect my kids to respect other adults the same way I would, but I don't expect them to obey other adults.

 

If I remember correctly from another thread, with your definition of respect comes the requirement that your children do not argue with adults - ever, for any reason... right? Please do correct me if I'm wrong, because it's just a vague recollection.

 

If you lead by example, respect-wise, insofar as what HOW you require respect to be "carried out" (as you indicated with your President Obama comment) then would you really tell me that you never argue with, stand up to, or challenge another adult? Because in doing so, you are giving the illusion that you agree with them, if only with your silence, which is bordering on dishonest.

 

I would say, if I am correct in the above, that we have very different definitions of respect. You cannot force the feeling of respect. You can force a child to behave, to not argue, to not challenge authority (but really, where will that get them in their adult life? Immediate obedience to an authority figure is not necessarily, these days, seen as a good thing), but you cannot force respect, as it is defined: A deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements. I guess that I personally believe in THAT definition of respect - which mentions nothing about automatic respect because of their age.

 

Now, with that said, the people who follow GP/AP, whom you know personally, are a hot mess, lol. That is NOT parenting. That is neglect.

[zoobie]

I would classify your examples as dysfunctional, not gentle.

 

Our version of gentle parenting means no corporal punishment, no yelling (it's a goal, anyway), and basically looking at discipline as teaching vs punishment while being mindful of developmentally appropriate behavior.

 

My kids have boundaries. We learn and practice etiquette. When they make mistakes, we look for natural consequences first, then logical consequences if necessary. When I make mistakes, I apologize. We avoid purely punitive measures. Time outs are for taking a breath and refocusing when you are overwhelmed or overstimulated, not punishment for disobedience.

 

I don't think of my children as peers. I respect my children as individuals, but they are not my peers. I'm not wholly responsible for peers. I don't teach my peers, or stay up at night worrying about them. I put my feet up and have a drink with peers.

[Katy]

When it came to parenting, my husband and I have tried to be authoritative parents as defined by Diana Baumrind. By that, I mean we try to wisely and lovingly guide our children while allowing them to voice their opinions and feelings about our decisions. They are also allowed to mess up -- which will happen -- and when it does, we try to guide them appropriately. I don't want the message to be lost in the delivery. Ultimately, the goal is get the child to cooperate while being allowed what is necessary to individuate. This is an easier process for some than others.

 

We also spend a lot of time with our kids doing fun activities, asking about their day, and making our house open to their friends so that the conversations can keep flowing and the connections keep growing.

 

Anyway, these are the four parenting styles and a link that explains them:

 

Authoritarian

Authoritative

Permissive

Uninvolved

 

http://psychology.about.com/od/developmentalpsychology/a/parenting-style.htm

 

Btw, children who grow up with authoritative parents are the least likely to lie. If you want to learn more, you can read about that in Nurture Shock by Po Bronson.

 

People have all kinds of opinions but I would say that having a few consistent rules that can be bent in the right circumstances while maintaining warmth with your children generally will have the best effect.

 

Thanks for this.  We're definitely authoritative, not authoritarian.

 

I got some flack on here a few years ago when I posted about kids and respect. I grew up in a regional culture where respect was demanded of kids but kids were too young to have "earned" any respect of their own. My own family was not like that and I had issues with the whole "respect your elders" position. With my kids, I went with the "be polite to everyone until they prove they deserve otherwise."

 

I have no clue what my parenting style is. We don't spank and we rarely discipline, yet those who don't know us well think we are very strict because of how well my kids behave (in public at least :001_rolleyes: ), but I couldn't tell you the last time my kids were disciplined for anything.

 

I guess I am a "routine" style parent. I personally need routine and rhythm to function well. I keep my own life scheduled and very organized or I will just fall apart. So I naturally kept routine with the kids. Bedtime was at a certain time and I was strict about that, but they didn't have to go to sleep. Lights, toys, books -- I didn't care as long as they were in their room and quiet at bed time. Time for a meal but not hungry? That's wonderful but you still have to sit down with the family. I wasn't ever big on the arbitrary "no." Even when young they got an explanation as to why (although it was after the fact if it was a safety issue). Just about everything in our house is open for discussion, but the kids know that the parents have final decision making authority. I'm almost a free-range parent, because my kids have a lot of freedom as long as they keep us informed at all times.

 

We allow discussion but not arguments. We hug it out. I've been known to bribe my kids on occasion. We encourage the kids to make their own decisions with our advice. We set clear expectations and allow for the natural consequences. We mess up sometimes and we own up to it and apologize.

 

We're routine style parents too.

 

That sounds a bit odd considering the "rainbow parties" hysteria was based on an urban legend.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_party_%28sexuality%29

 

Wikipedia doesn't get everything right.....  It wasn't an urban legend.  It definitely happened with kids at my middle school, other kids in my town, and I've met a lot of others in their mid thirties to mid 40's who went to a party that turned into one. I never went to a party like that and I grew up in a different state, but my ex was from Chicago (Oak Park) deeply regretted having his first sexual experience at one.  Though different lipstick colors weren't always there; sometimes it was more like a competition, sickening as that is.  The one thing I've found to be true about it is that most of the people who'd been part of or known people who were part of anything like that was that they were all upper middle class kids from medium to large cities and they had permissive parents.

[LucyStoner]

I would also like to throw out there that having a non-neurotypical child affects how you have to parent. Far too often I have had family, acquaintances and perfect strangers assume far too much about what I am or am not as a parent based on them either not knowing or not understanding or even not believing (?!) that my son has autism. Sometimes what people have taken as "bad behavior" actually represents progress or a lot of effort on his part. One example-

 

We go camping a lot. When he was 8 we realized that if he had is own small tent when camping to keep his stuff where he could retreat as needed, he was a lot happier on camping trips. We tell him that this is his space and it is up to him who can come in. We have one trip per year that is kind of a free for all- we get about 4-6 sites and a hodge podge of family and friends come. My son quite literally practiced saying both "I need to rest, I am going to my tent" and "this is my tent and I need to be alone now." You see where this is going right? Some adults on the trip (family, cause we don't choose family, lol) thought it was rude for him to not share his tent WHENEVER another child wanted to see inside. Some thought it was rude that rather than always joining in with the kids games or sitting by the fire eating marshmallows, he would go read alone in his tent. When doing either of those things was a positive for him and represented a massive improvement over him feeling overwhemled and overloaded. That first trip with his own tent he didn't have a single tantrum or meltdown. That's a huge success for him. It also represented a lot of effort for him to do for 10-20 minutes what a lot of the kids wanted to do for an hour or more and having his own space allows him to engage and be a participant more, not less. Yet there are some people that would find it rude, selfish or spoiled for him to have his very own (tiny) tent to retreat to. Like OMG, they bought him his own tent and my kid isn't allowed to come in. Yet I also know those same people would be the first to line up and condemn him for losing his shit too. You really can't win with some people! Eta- honestly, some of their kids could er, really use a similar tent, for sure.

[Katy]

If I remember correctly from another thread, with your definition of respect comes the requirement that your children do not argue with adults - ever, for any reason... right? Please do correct me if I'm wrong, because it's just a vague recollection.

 

If you lead by example, respect-wise, insofar as what HOW you require respect to be "carried out" (as you indicated with your President Obama comment) then would you really tell me that you never argue with, stand up to, or challenge another adult? Because in doing so, you are giving the illusion that you agree with them, if only with your silence, which is bordering on dishonest.

 

I would say, if I am correct in the above, that we have very different definitions of respect. You cannot force the feeling of respect. You can force a child to behave, to not argue, to not challenge authority (but really, where will that get them in their adult life? Immediate obedience to an authority figure is not necessarily, these days, seen as a good thing), but you cannot force respect, as it is defined: A deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements. I guess that I personally believe in THAT definition of respect - which mentions nothing about automatic respect because of their age.

 

Now, with that said, the people who follow GP/AP, whom you know personally, are a hot mess, lol. That is NOT parenting. That is neglect.

 

Well, I think maybe we define argue differently.  I don't condone my kids sassing adults, but obviously it is fine to disagree with them. I don't want them being rude little know-it-all's (which is easy for them to be when they have unlimited access to books and limited access to screen time) but obviously it is okay to disagree with someone when it is socially appropriate to do so OR involves something creepy or something unsafe.  I suspect most people here struggle with the same line with kids until they're old enough to intuit why an adult is talking - sometimes it's to share something factual, sometimes it's to tell a story that has nothing to do with a "fact" that a kid might interrupt to correct.

 

The concept of respect was taught to me by my very southern dad, I think the different definitions might be cultural.

 

eta:  though I haven't mentioned it here I talk to them about respect and manners in terms not of following arbitrary rules, but in terms of honoring the people in our lives and trying to to hurt or offend them.  So yeah, I can be strict about those rules but I do define the reason for the rules.  I always needed to know the reason for something when I was a kid in order to remember it so I assume my kids need the same thing.

[LucyStoner]

Well, I think maybe we define argue differently. I don't condone my kids sassing adults, but obviously it is fine to disagree with them. I don't want them being rude little know-it-all's (which is easy for them to be when they have unlimited access to books and limited access to screen time) but obviously it is okay to disagree with someone when it is socially appropriate to do so OR involves something creepy or something unsafe. I suspect most people here struggle with the same line with kids until they're old enough to intuit why an adult is talking - sometimes it's to share something factual, sometimes it's to tell a story that has nothing to do with a "fact" that a kid might interrupt to correct.

 

The concept of respect was taught to me by my very southern dad, I think the different definitions might be cultural.

Katy- how to your distinguish the "rude little know it alls" from kids on the spectrum or kids having a bad moment or day? How is it respectful of you to classify children as rude little know it alls?

[Katy]

I would also like to throw out there that having a non-neurotypical child affects how you have to parent. Far too often I have had family, acquaintances and perfect strangers assume far too much about what I am or am not as a parent based on them either not knowing or not understanding or even not believing (?!) that my son has autism. Sometimes what people have taken as "bad behavior" actually represents progress or a lot of effort on his part. One example-

 

We go camping a lot. When he was 8 we realized that if he had is own small tent when camping to keep his stuff where he could retreat as needed, he was a lot happier on camping trips. We tell him that this is his space and it is up to him who can come in. We have one trip per year that is kind of a free for all- we get about 4-6 sites and a hodge podge of family and friends come. My son quite literally practiced saying both "I need to rest, I am going to my tent" and "this is my tent and I need to be alone now." You see where this is going right? Some adults on the trip (family, cause we don't choose family, lol) thought it was rude for him to not share his tent WHENEVER another child wanted to see inside. Some thought it was rude that rather than always joining in with the kids games or sitting by the fire eating marshmallows, he would go read alone in his tent. When doing either of those things was a positive for him and represented a massive improvement over him feeling overwhemled and overloaded. That first trip with his own tent he didn't have a single tantrum or meltdown. That's a huge success for him. It also represented a lot of effort for him to do for 10-20 minutes what a lot of the kids wanted to do for an hour or more and having his own space allows him to engage and be a participant more, not less. Yet there are some people that would find it rude, selfish or spoiled for him to have his very own (tiny) tent to retreat to. Like OMG, they bought him his own tent and my kid isn't allowed to come in. Yet I also know those same people would be the first to line up and condemn him for losing his shit too. You really can't win with some people!

 

They don't believe his diagnosis?!  AAArgh.  That would infuriate me.  I have a nephew on the spectrum and I agree some kids have to be parented differently. 

I'm sorry that you went through that.

[zoobie]

I would also like to throw out there that having a non-neurotypical child affects how you have to parent. Far too often I have had family, acquaintances and perfect strangers assume far too much about what I am or am not as a parent based on them either not knowing or not understanding or even not believing (?!) that my son has autism. Sometimes what people have taken as "bad behavior" actually represents progress or a lot of effort on his part. One example-

 

We go camping a lot. When he was 8 we realized that if he had is own small tent when camping to keep his stuff where he could retreat as needed, he was a lot happier on camping trips. We tell him that this is his space and it is up to him who can come in. We have one trip per year that is kind of a free for all- we get about 4-6 sites and a hodge podge of family and friends come. My son quite literally practiced saying both "I need to rest, I am going to my tent" and "this is my tent and I need to be alone now." You see where this is going right? Some adults on the trip (family, cause we don't choose family, lol) thought it was rude for him to not share his tent WHENEVER another child wanted to see inside. Some thought it was rude that rather than always joining in with the kids games or sitting by the fire eating marshmallows, he would go read alone in his tent. When doing either of those things was a positive for him and represented a massive improvement over him feeling overwhemled and overloaded. That first trip with his own tent he didn't have a single tantrum or meltdown. That's a huge success for him. It also represented a lot of effort for him to do for 10-20 minutes what a lot of the kids wanted to do for an hour or more and having his own space allows him to engage and be a participant more, not less. Yet there are some people that would find it rude, selfish or spoiled for him to have his very own (tiny) tent to retreat to. Like OMG, they bought him his own tent and my kid isn't allowed to come in. Yet I also know those same people would be the first to line up and condemn him for losing his shit too. You really can't win with some people! Eta- honestly, some of their kids could er, really use a similar tent, for sure.

I'd be hacked off with NT kids in that scenario! One of the things I really like about primary Montessori is how they teach kids to ask before joining another child, how to respect the child's no, and how to decline politely.

[mommymilkies]

Katy- how to your distinguish the "rude little know it alls" from kids on the spectrum or kids having a bad moment or day? How is it respectful of you to classify children as rude little know it alls?

Or kids who inherited their parents sarcasm.  :coolgleamA:

[Katy]

Lucy I don't judge other people's kids much until I've spent some time with them.  I was often a rude little know it all as a kid and mine definitely have the same tendency.

 

I want them to love learning, but I don't want them to get one of those egos that's all wrapped up in being intellectually superior to others.  The love of learning comes easily to us, working on thinking through the way you're coming across to others who maybe value people and relationships MORE than learning is a little more difficult for them to grasp.  I'm sure partially this is a stage of life thing, older kids tend to long for closer friendships and pay more attention to social skills, but definitely amongst some of our friends and extended family (mostly the ones with MD's and PhD's) there are intellectual people that have a slight tendency to try to prove intellectual superiority over others rather than listen to them.  I want them to understand that while debate can be fun, it's not always appropriate and they haven't all picked up on those social cues yet.

[LucyStoner]

They don't believe his diagnosis?! AAArgh. That would infuriate me. I have a nephew on the spectrum and I agree some kids have to be parented differently.

I'm sorry that you went through that.

One of my brothers has told me "I don't see that at all." This brother is also the one that we had to stop allowing my kids to visit at his house because he grabbed my sons arm and yanked him off the couch because he wanted him to go outside and play with the neighbor boys.

 

Of course he has also told me that I am only helping his wife leave him and taking care of my niece and nephew a lot because my son is defective and I want custody of his kids. He's not a nice person. So there is that. Still, he's the extreme example but not unique.

 

A lot of people seem to think that autism can be parented or even beat out of children. Those people are asses.

[LucyStoner]

Or kids who inherited their parents sarcasm. :coolgleamA:

:D

[Katy]

haha, we tend to be a little sarcastic too (although I've talked with them about how I struggle personally to limit that somewhat because it can also be a little bit mean to sensitive people), there are some people we know have a similar sense of humor and it's okay to tease them, and others (even inside our family) who take things personally so we shouldn't tease them.

[LucyStoner]

We are a bit sarcastic and "punny" here. We actually have a hand signal to let my son with ASD know when we or others are being sarcastic. We use the ASL "K" for kidding.

[mommymilkies]

haha, we tend to be a little sarcastic too (although I've talked with them about how I struggle personally to limit that somewhat because it can also be a little bit mean to sensitive people), there are some people we know have a similar sense of humor and it's okay to tease them, and others (even inside our family) who take things personally so we shouldn't tease them.

Yeah, sometimes that's hard to do.  We know a lot of sarcastic people, so usually it's not an issue.  Luckily my kids are mostly shy, so don't talk to strangers much.  My oldest borders on Selective Mutism-it's something we've talked to her doctor about.  And so she appears rude to some who don't know her because unless she knows you really well, she won't reply to you at all and will mumble "Thank You" under her breath while looking away.  It's something we're working on.  She doesn't want to be that way, but her anxiety is so high that forcing it just causes her to break down and sets us back.

[mommymilkies]

We are a bit sarcastic and "punny" here. We actually have a hand signal to let my son with ASD know when we or others are being sarcastic. We use the ASL "K" for kidding.

That's a good idea.  My 9 yo does not understand figurative language or jokes (outside of potty humor).  I will have to start doing that.  She's the only one we have to explain sarcasm to and reassure.   :lol:

[LucyStoner]

I'd be hacked off with NT kids in that scenario! One of the things I really like about primary Montessori is how they teach kids to ask before joining another child, how to respect the child's no, and how to decline politely.

I will admit that there are some people who didn't make the invite list the next year.

 

There are also some people who, even though they didn't get it at first, saw what a big improvement it was for him and shifted their thinking a bit. They got invited back.

[happi duck]

We are a bit sarcastic and "punny" here. We actually have a hand signal to let my son with ASD know when we or others are being sarcastic. We use the ASL "K" for kidding.

This idea and the tent idea are brilliant!

[Laura Corin]

Lucy I don't judge other people's kids much until I've spent some time with them.  I was often a rude little know it all as a kid and mine definitely have the same tendency.

 

 

These things are so subjective and culturally defined.  I'm British and Husband is from Texas.  I've shared before how the first time I went to stay with my future mother-in-law, we were both on our best behaviour but immediately got across each other.  I was brought up in a family where disagreement and debate were a normal part of family life.  I had not come across social situations subsequently in which this was a problem.  She found me pushy and rude, because I did not conform to her idea of consensual conversation, particularly between a younger and an older woman.

 

Which of us was correct?

 

In the end, she became more used to me, and I toned down my rhetoric.  In her case, I think her husband's appreciation of me helped her to tolerate me, as did my sticking by her son through periods of unemployment.  In my case, Husband's explanation of Texas female culture helped me to understand how I might be coming across.

 

L

[swellmomma]

I have never been one to subscribe to gentle parenting in the way that I see it play out irl.  But I am one that follows attachment parenting in many aspects yet still maintains ultimate rule.  I like to think of it as a benevolent dictatorship.  I make choices out of love but ultimately I am the boss.  I do respect my kids and make decisions based on their needs/abilities etc BUT I do expect them to respect me by doing what they are told and following the rules of the home.  There isn't many but they are non-negotiable.  I prefer logical and natural consequences but that does not mean I never impose punishment in the form of a spanking or grounding etc

I feel like everyone likes to pretend to parent in the extremes.  Those that follow gentle parenting and those that are more disciplinarian seem to be completely polar opposites online with all the always/never type comments and yet I bet most people tend to parent somewhere in the middle irl.  

For example, the I can bet that there are times where the gentle parenter has raised their voice and demanded the child simply obey.  Particularly where safety is concerned.  CHild goes to run onto street, parent shouts out NO! child freezes, parent takes child by arm, looks int he eye and says "never, ever, go on the road without mommy/daddy".  No discipline needed yet it is an instruction with obedience expected and a raised voice to get attention.  Those that believe in the use of occasional punishment in their repertoire don't generally jump right to that as the gentle parenters seem to think.  It's not like they spend their day barking orders and doling out punishments to their kids.  It's not a prison camp for goodness sakes.  Even those that expect obedience and will occasionally spank tend to use discussion, reminders, redirection, etc first.  Punishment is not a first response, it is a last resort to get the child to amend a particular behavior.

I see a lot of gentle parenters to say they never had to resort to those things and their child is perfect and never misbehaves.  Yet perhaps those that are gentle parenters got lucky, meaning I know of no one that ever had a little baby and went, "ahh so sweet, the perfect little person to yell at and paddle"  The fact is everyone has a version in their head of the type of parent they want to be and that morphs and is shaped by the children we have.  I mean really, contrary to what many gentle parenters believe, some child simply do need a firmer form of discipline to make those connections.  While it would be nice to allow a child to just do whatever they want all the time, they have to fit into society and some children simply need further discipline to be able to do so.  Without it at home they will have it doled out by society and/or the prison system for them.  I am thinking in terms of my own kids.  On the whole I am fairly gentle, and I have been lucky to have 1 child that all you need to discipline her is a stern look and she is done.  Another that if he is grounded off things for 1-2 hours completely changes the behaviour (generally swearing, fighting in the neighborhood etc). It does not "cure" it for life but it puts him in line with expected behaviours while we work through talk etc about the whys behind it.  The fact is he is in therapy and on meds for adhd and other issues, he needs the law" (aka me) to come down from time to time to remind him of where the line it.  I have 1 that when young was very trying, in addition to her punishments at home, she faced detentions, suspensions etc at school, kicked out of activities and more but now as a teen is fine.  But due to her adhd and head strong nature was not functional in society without those around her coming down on her as needed.  She is one that really could either run the mob or a fortune 500, it came down to which had more payoff, meaning the "mob" side had to have more consequences to seem less appealing. The last has significant mental health issues in addition to his adhd.  In addition to me having to punish he has been arrested etc.  I dare anyone who claims there is never a child that needs punishment and gentle parenting/respect is all a child ever needs to come and raise him.  I give you about 3 days before you start raising your voice and demanding he follow certain rules.  Rules like do not stab knives through the walls/doors/furniture, do not steal, do not hit/attack others, do not threaten others, etc.  Talking is not enough, even with harsher punishments, medication and a shrink I can barely keep him from doing harm to others and I know without a doubt he will likely spend at least some time in jail when he hits 18.  We have gotten lucky so far in his dealings with the law that he has had punishments but no record.  

Anyway my point is gentle parenting works for some kids, and doesn't for others, just like stricter parenting works for some kids and not for others but there is no point in pretending in writing to live in either extreme when the fast majority of parents are somewhere in the middle doing the best they can for the kids they have.

[mommymilkies]

Just had a conversation the other day about the whole ma'am and sir thing.  In some parts of the country you are rude if you don't use it.  In other parts you are rude if you use it.

I cried the first time someone called me Ma'am when we moved to NC.  Where I was from in "the North", that was used usually as a backhanded insult or a joke.  I thought they were calling me old.  :lol:   We never caught on to that one.  Or calling people "Miss Jenny" or whatever. 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

nm 

Edited June 10, 2014 by ChocolateReignRemix
You have been on this forum long enough to know the difference between arguing issues & making personal attacks.

[Alexigail]

One of my brothers has told me "I don't see that at all." 

 

 

  :(  I've gotten this a lot because my son is high functioning and verbal.  The worst is when people think they're being supportive like "I don't think it's autism, he'll probably grow out of it."  or "Really?  He seems fine to me."  with a sympathetic smile to show they think I worry too much.    

 

 

[swellmomma]

That sounds a bit odd considering the "rainbow parties" hysteria was based on an urban legend.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_party_%28sexuality%29

rainbow parties and mars bars parties started in about 7th-8th grade where I grew up and went right through high school.  Rainbow parties were as described, mars bars parties were where the girl inserted a mini mars bar in her nether region and the boy ate it out of her.  Not urban legends at all, but not the bulk of the class either.  Generally it was the "popular" group, they had the most permissive parents though I don't think the parents knew the extent of what was going on.  Heck even those of us with stricter parents seldom knew the extent of what we got up to and it was nothing like that.  I think in both cases the parents believed they had raised good kids with a solid head on their shoulders and instead we were all idiot teenagers soaring on hormones and not using our heads all the time.

[Catwoman]

Yeah, sometimes that's hard to do.  We know a lot of sarcastic people, so usually it's not an issue.  Luckily my kids are mostly shy, so don't talk to strangers much.  My oldest borders on Selective Mutism-it's something we've talked to her doctor about.  And so she appears rude to some who don't know her because unless she knows you really well, she won't reply to you at all and will mumble "Thank You" under her breath while looking away.  It's something we're working on.  She doesn't want to be that way, but her anxiety is so high that forcing it just causes her to break down and sets us back.

My ds has always been an outgoing kid, so I don't have personal experience with this as a parent, and I was that irritating kid who never shut up, but I can never understand it when people get upset because a child shies away from them, particularly because it's usually a child they don't even know very well. And of course, the idiot adult has to come out and make a snotty comment about how the kid needs to get over that shyness, like they could just take a pill for it or something, which makes the poor kid feel even worse. :glare:

 

I talk to everyone. If I'm in line with you at the store, I'll probably say something to you, usually something about how I like your earrings or how your kids are really cute. And I'm one of those people who would pay a compliment to your dd. But if it made her uncomfortable, I would feel badly about it because I'd invaded her space, not think she was wrong for not responding. I'm a stranger in a store, for crying out loud, not her grandma. (I'm probably old enough to be her grandma, but let's just say I'm not so I don't get all depressed. ;)) Why should she have to talk to me?

 

Anxiety sucks. Some adults don't understand that kids can be anxious and uncomfortable. They're like, "but they're kids and kids don't have a care in the world," but that's just stupid. Or else they tell the kid to suck it up and deal with it, and they think they've trained the anxiety out of the kid, when all they've really done is force the kid to suppress and hide her emotions, which is so harmful in the long run.

 

I think your dd sounds sweet!!!

[Joanne]

What you describe would be considered poor parenting by any reasonable adult standards. I know all mainstream parents I know would think what you described is ridiculous.

 

I'm not fond of the title "gentle parenting"; it is a bit of a misnomer and it conjures images of a saccharine sweet mom pleading with a child.

 

I'm equally not fond of "positive" parenting, it has a similarly inaccurate implication.

 

My parenting (my parenting and the type of parenting I write about, teach about, and endorse professionally) is one that embraces a firm model with related, reasonable, respectful consequences. In my parenting classes, I don't encourage parents to "show who is boss." Parents make the food, medical, schedule, educational, budget decisions. It is clear they ARE boss. I think comparisons to other relationships are limited in applicableness; the parent/child relationship is unique. I am not the police, the government, a supervisor, a professor, a peer or "the world" to my children. In formulating and developing my role with my kids, I am definitely in charge. But, in my use of that power, I don't impose arbitrary or unrelated consequences. I don't burden my kids with cumbersome or unnecessary rules. I don't burden them with the responsibility of keeping themselves safe (as in expecting obedience for safety issues). I am judicious and careful about when I expect automatic compliance - so that my children neither become mommy deaf nor robots.

 

When I do say and insist on something, I mean it. My kids know I mean it because I follow through and I make my commands meaningful, necessary, and not constant.

 

My parenting choices are informed by research, my own quirky idea of prayer/meditation, observation, knowledge of developmental realities and each individual personality in conjunction with our current life context.

 

I did not spank, did not use traditional time outs, and I don't think they have ever been grounded. OTOH, they have been removed from play, from events, had certain media removed for related offenses, have had to fix and/or pay for things, have made verbal and life amends. When they were younger, we role played, practiced, did do-overs, I used "asked and answered", code words, learning through literature. I used structure and ritual, and connection, and playfulness. They have/had chores, were expected to complete things like classes or sports commitments, assisted with side jobs of adults, family businesses. Our life context dictated some accelerated growing in terms of shopping, budget, cooking, companioning ill adults.

 

I know have one adult (ostensibly ;)), a late teen and a mid teen. I have NO regrets about the type of parenting I chose. I don't really label it anymore, but I used to identify with AP/alternative. I have observed poor parenting in many groups. But, in general? I have observed the vast majority are reasonable, adequate or better.

 

 

 

[foxbridgeacademy]

I always say I was "strict" when my kids were young so I don't have to be when they're older.  My definition of strict though is that I had expectations of certain behaviors in certain places.

Examples:

No screaming, wandering off, hiding, throwing tantrum in public.  There were punishments, sure.  Most often "stern" voices being used was enough.  My son got a spanking once when he was 4, and daughter twice around same age, not from me, I can't do it.  

During Co-op if DS wouldn't participate or both would talk while the adults were explaining something to group, I would give them the "look".  If that didn't fix it then I would pull them away and explain that their behavior was inappropriate and unacceptable, we could always go home or sit in the car.  I tried to be consistent. If the behavior was unacceptable then it was always unacceptable even if everyone else was doing it. These thing rarely happened then and never happen now.

 

My family thinks I'm to easy, my HSing friends think I'm to hard.  I think I'm just right, my kids behave as I would wish them to 95% of the time.  The issues we usually come across are rarely true behavior problems, more a lack of not thinking things through (DS) or a bit of a personality clash (DD).

 

[swellmomma]

 

 

I did not spank, did not use traditional time outs, and I don't think they have ever been grounded. OTOH, they have been removed from play, from events, had certain media removed for related offenses, have had to fix and/or pay for things, have made verbal and life amends. When they were younger, we role played, practiced, did do-overs, I used "asked and answered", code words, learning through literature. I used structure and ritual, and connection, and playfulness. They have/had chores, were expected to complete things like classes or sports commitments, assisted with side jobs of adults, family businesses. Our life context dictated some accelerated growing in terms of shopping, budget, cooking, companioning ill adults.

 

I know have one adult (ostensibly ;)), a late teen and a mid teen. I have NO regrets about the type of parenting I chose. I don't really label it anymore, but I used to identify with AP/alternative. I have observed poor parenting in many groups. But, in general? I have observed the vast majority are reasonable, adequate or better.

See and to me the bolded is a time out and a grounding in my home.  Removal from an event, play etc is a time out away from that.  No it is not sitting in a chair in the corner, but it is still a time out from it.  Removing media is a grounding from those items.  Same discipline, different name.  I wonder how often is is true of other parents.  One says they never punish, the other says they do and yet ir is the exact same consequence, just a different name for it.

[Joanne]

See and to me the bolded is a time out and a grounding in my home.  Removal from an event, play etc is a time out away from that.  No it is not sitting in a chair in the corner, but it is still a time out from it.  Removing media is a grounding from those items.  Same discipline, different name.  I wonder how often is is true of other parents.  One says they never punish, the other says they do and yet ir is the exact same consequence, just a different name for it.

 

 

I am not sure if you are referring to me, but you did quote me.

I never said I don't punish; I don't impose unrelated consequences.

 

[bolt.]

Sometimes those who "don't punish" are indeed imposing the same consiquences by another name. In other cases they are calling their techniques by other names in order to accurately describe somewhat subtle differences in the presentation or execution of whatever they are doing. When the philosophy is different, sometimes you can tell by the wording being different.

 

Not a parenting example, but in language, "fasting" vs "starving" are quite similar in execution, but really very different in intent.

 

Similarly, removing a child from play group because they are clearly very unhappy and overwhelmed is not a "punishment" -- but taking them home because they are misbehaving can be. Whichever it is, if looks the same when you've got a crying preschooler in your arms and heading for the mini-van... Maybe the different intent doesn't matter... But maybe it does.

 

Maybe one parent is busy murmuring, "It will be OK, we can try again soon, there's no problem, lets do something fun when we get home, you will be OK soon, I've got a cookie for you here." While the other parent is fuming and emphasizing that jr got what he/she deserved from his/her bad behaviour at play group, and hopes that he/she will learn their lesson.

 

Sometimes the rhetoric with which one surrounds their actions can make a big difference. Especially in such a close relationship.

[MotherGoose]

But what you may have seen and not recognized as gentle parenting is a parent who *does* pick up and carry away the child, speaking soothingly, cuddling her, patting her back, singing a favorite lullaby, or whatever they know calms that child down. That's what I would have done (and did do) in similar instances. What my mom would have done is picked me up, carried me away, and spanked me. I do not believe that an exhausted child deserves to be punished for acting like an exhausted child. But I do know some authoritarian parents who would spank and/or let the child "cry it out". I don't know how representative that is of authoritarian parenting. I'm guessing/hoping it's not typical.

 

I think that the extremes at both ends of the spectrum are basically parenting in a very lazy way. The extreme authoritarian types cannot be bothered to provide for their child's needs, and the extreme permissive types cannot be bothered to stand up for their own needs. But in the middle, whether we consider ourselves to be authority-based or gentle or whatever label we apply, is the vast majority of us, who are creating family dynamics wherein everyone's needs are being considered, and met to the best of our abilities.

 

When I have to deal with a tired toddler, or even older child, I am definitely gentle and they do like that empathy and snuggling.  Now if they are just being defiant, which does happen, I won't be as empathetic.  I do try to empathize with my children and say, nicely, "I know you would like to stay and play but it's time to go now."  They don't have to like it, but they do have to comply.  I won't spend 20 minutes leaving when they've had fair warning that it's time to go in hopes that they will leave happily :)  My dh has a hard time figuring out when they are tired or when they are being defiant.  I am thankful that when they were young enough to be carried out of places I did do that, now they know that when mom says it's time to go, she means it.  I would consider myself a fairly gentle parent who puts the foot down only when absolutely necessary, but I won't be a pushover.

[bolt.]

It's nice to not have to figure out when/if a child is being defiant... Since I'm just going to do the same kind, helpful, level-headed things in the situation anyways.

 

I'm not even sure what I would define as "defiant" since it seems to just be a dramatic subscription of "having an option that differs from my parents"... I avoid unnecessary drama, and kids' opinions don't tend to phase me much.

[MotherGoose]

It's nice to not have to figure out when/if a child is being defiant... Since I'm just going to do the same kind, helpful, level-headed things in the situation anyways.

 

I'm not even sure what I would define as "defiant" since it seems to just be a dramatic subscription of "having an option that differs from my parents"... I avoid unnecessary drama, and kids' opinions don't tend to phase me much.

Mom says, "Dear Susie, please take your dishes to the sink."

Susie, who is 5, who has just awoken and had breakfast after a good night's sleep, and is otherwise perfectly healthy but would rather go play, says "No, I don't wanna!!!"

Mom says, "Susie, that's one of your chores, so please do what I ask you to do to help Mommy."

Susie, "NOOOO my legs won't work. I'm too tired!"

Mom: gives choices, punishes, etc but with sternness rather than the gentleness she would display if it was 9 PM and Susie had had a long day.  

[NASDAQ]

By the time my three yo is tantruming, it doesn't matter what I do. Yell, cuddle, dance an Irish jig. He's going to tantrum until . . . I don't know. Something clicks and he's calm enough to deal with. Now I just stick that one in the playpen until he calms down a notch, provided we don't need to be on an airplane or something.

[Χά�ων]

Mom says, "Dear Susie, please take your dishes to the sink."

Susie, who is 5, who has just awoken and had breakfast after a good night's sleep, and is otherwise perfectly healthy but would rather go play, says "No, I don't wanna!!!"

Mom says, "Susie, that's one of your chores, so please do what I ask you to do to help Mommy."

Susie, "NOOOO my legs won't work. I'm too tired!"

Mom: gives choices, punishes, etc but with sternness rather than the gentleness she would display if it was 9 PM and Susie had had a long day.  

 

Or from the time Susie was born mom and dad talked to her and included her as part of the routine in cleaning up the kitchen and instead of issuing a demand if Susie forgets, they ask to help. It is not a chore, it is a routine and as ingrained in daily life as getting dressed it.  

 

Habits, not chores are easier for a child to understand. Part of eating is putting the dishes in the sink, if it is a built in habit it is done without thought. There are things that the ONLY way *I* get done because they are habits and I am in my 30's! 

 

 

Though to be honest my son has a medical condition and there are times when he literally can't. So if he says his legs won't work, I would not be surprised. 

[mommymilkies]

Mom says, "Dear Susie, please take your dishes to the sink."

Susie, who is 5, who has just awoken and had breakfast after a good night's sleep, and is otherwise perfectly healthy but would rather go play, says "No, I don't wanna!!!"

Mom says, "Susie, that's one of your chores, so please do what I ask you to do to help Mommy."

Susie, "NOOOO my legs won't work. I'm too tired!"

Mom: gives choices, punishes, etc but with sternness rather than the gentleness she would display if it was 9 PM and Susie had had a long day.  

You don't say "please."  

 

Instead try the FIRST time: "It looks like your dishes are still out.  

 

What do we do with dirty dishes?" or "Your dishes need taken to the sink."  You don't give options or pose it as a question.  You teach them what needs done.  If that still gets a "no", then you say (or leave a note): "Dishes".

 

You don't lecture or talk so much to a 5 yo.  They need direction, not an instruction manual.  And if you still get a no, get playful.  "Your legs won't work!  What will we do about that?  I bet getting them moving will wake them right up!" Or something else like that.  

 

I don't even give the option that "no" is an answer unless they have a really good reason.  If they can politely convince me, then we work something out.  FWIW, I've rarely gotten to that stage for something so simple.  And if I do, I reconsider if it's really worth it.  I only make demands when it's worth my time and energy to do so-important things. 

 

 

Or from the time Susie was born mom and dad talked to her and included her as part of the routine in cleaning up the kitchen and instead of issuing a demand if Susie forgets, they ask to help. It is not a chore, it is a routine and as ingrained in daily life as getting dressed it.  

 

Habits, not chores are easier for a child to understand. Part of eating is putting the dishes in the sink, if it is a built in habit it is done without thought. There are things that the ONLY way *I* get done because they are habits and I am in my 30's! 

 

 

And this.  If that request is coming out of nowhere, then that's not gonna fly.  Model behavior first. 

[bolt.]

At 5, Suzie would get, "Yeah, I get that you don't want to." Followed by silence until she tried to go somewhere else. Then it would be, "Take your dishes, love. The table isn't the right place for them. They want to be in the dishwasher with their friends." (Possible fake voices of dishes calling out of the dishwasher...)

If there was continued stubbornness, the escalation would look something like, "Lets work together, I'll take this fork. You take your plate. Then I will do your cup, and the bowl is for you. Sound good?" -- "We'll, we can work together... or if I need to, I can show your hands how the task is done." (This is the possibility of hand-over-hand work) And/or, "Gee whiz, something must really be bugging you today. Normally you are very helpful. Lets get you settled and snuggled in for a rest/nap before your chores then." (Not sure if I would tidy after the napping child, or if I would leave the task for after nap... Depends how genuinely nap-ish she seemed.)

I don't assess what might be bugging a child by the clock. A poor night's sleep, nerves about the day, a tooth ache, the beginning of an illness or many other legitimate reasons for a child not to be at her best can happen at any time if day. Morning obduracy is just as legitimate as evening obduracy and doesn't need any extra-special not-quite-so-kindness.

[Soror]

As I mentioned before I currently have a 4yo, actually 4.5 yo, so all these scenarios are things that happen regularly. She tells me she doesn't want to do xyz, I repeat xyz needs to be done. As mommymilkies said there is no begging or pleading but just a statement and then I wait for and expect it to happen. If you consistently expect it and they realize that you are not going to forget or give up they realize it works much faster to just do it and we all go on our merry way.

 

Dd 4.5 is on dishwasher duty this week, so she has to help me unload it as she isn't big enough to do it on her own. Yesterday was the first day and she whined a bit but no matter if she likes the job it still needs to be done, we work together, today she was great and started on her own. She also had to help her brothers and sisters spot mop the floor for tracking in dog poop this am. No one wanted to do the job but that is the consequence  and it needs to be done and we had a playdate with friends that we couldn't attend unless chores were done. My kids do a fair amount of chores but this has been the expectation for pretty much forever and we work together, we are a team and we totally rock it, we are a well-oiled machine. They know I count on them and I know they can take care of things and they do. I help them and they help me, not as a tit for tat or such but because that is what family does, we are in this together.

[Greta]

 One says they never punish, the other says they do and yet ir is the exact same consequence, just a different name for it.

  

 

I never said I don't punish; I don't impose unrelated consequences.

I did say that I don't punish, but that is exactly what I meant by it: I do not impose consequences that are unrelated and artificial. As always, the first step in a meaningful conversation is making sure we're all using terms in the same way. And I failed to that. But to me, a punishment is something that's contrived by the parent and doesn't relate to the situation and is more about making sure the child "pays" for the mistake. But a consequence is something that comes naturally, and helps the child learn from the mistake without unnecessary shame. Obviously there can be overlap between the two, and the difference is sometimes going to just come down to opinion. And in fact, I could see how the exact same thing could be used as a consequence in some situations and as a punishment in others, depending on how it is handled. So maybe my definition isn't perfect, but that's how I was thinking of it when I said I practice non-punitive parenting.

 

Also, it was kind of startling to me to realize that some people were thinking "gentle parenting" = permissive, or at least "not strict". I do consider myself to be parenting gently, but I also consider myself to be rather strict! To me, strict versus permissive is about the standards you set, but authoritarian versus gentle is about *how* those standards are met.

[mommymilkies]

Well hot damn some young jerk today said, "Have a nice day Ma'am." 

 

BITE ME

 

:lol:

  

 

 

I did say that I don't punish, but that is exactly what I meant by it: I do not impose consequences that are unrelated and artificial. As always, the first step in a meaningful conversation is making sure we're all using terms in the same way. And I failed to that. But to me, a punishment is something that's contrived by the parent and doesn't relate to the situation and is more about making sure the child "pays" for the mistake. But a consequence is something that comes naturally, and helps the child learn from the mistake without unnecessary shame. Obviously there can be overlap between the two, and the difference is sometimes going to just come down to opinion. And in fact, I could see how the exact same thing could be used as a consequence in some situations and as a punishment in others, depending on how it is handled. So maybe my definition isn't perfect, but that's how I was thinking of it when I said I practice non-punitive parenting.

 

Also, it was kind of startling to me to realize that some people were thinking "gentle parenting" = permissive, or at least "not strict". I do consider myself to be parenting gently, but I also consider myself to be rather strict! To me, strict versus permissive is about the standards you set, but authoritarian versus gentle is about *how* those standards are met.

:iagree:  I think definitions matter.  I agree that a punishment is something contrived as retribution.  Consequences are what happens because of your actions in a logical manner.  Drop the iPad?  You can't care for it/it's broken and gone.  You don't get smacked or put in time out.  If it was someone else's, you make up for it just like an adult would have to do.  Don't put your clothes in the dirty hamper?  You won't have your favorite dress to wear for awhile.  Things like that. 

[Greta]

:lol:

:iagree: I think definitions matter. I agree that a punishment is something contrived as retribution. Consequences are what happens because of your actions in a logical manner. Drop the iPad? You can't care for it/it's broken and gone. You don't get smacked or put in time out. If it was someone else's, you make up for it just like an adult would have to do. Don't put your clothes in the dirty hamper? You won't have your favorite dress to wear for awhile. Things like that.

Yes, good examples! I hate to "pick on" my parents because I love them to pieces and they did a wonderful job overall. But my mom would sometimes impose a punishment in addition to a natural consequence. So I learned the difference between the two at a young age, even though I didn't have this terminology to discuss them. They have very different effects on the child (or at least they did to me).