when a kid wants "equal footing"

[Haiku]

maybe, and maybe not.  natural consequences are - if it ain't in the laundry, it doesn't get washed and then he has no clean socks.

 

The fact that I'm annoyed by my husband's socks being on the floor is not because I'm concerned about laundry. I don't like the front room looking messy, and that's where he always leaves them. When I'm doing laundry, I pick up any stray laundry around the house and wash it because that's what's most convenient for me. It has nothing to do with disciplining my husband or natural consequences. Ideally he wouldn't leave his socks on the floor because it makes the room look messy. I will, however, discipline my kids for leaving their socks on the floor of the front room because it annoys me for the same reason my husband's socks on the floor annoy me, and it IS my job to discipline my kids. And I will pick up my kids' socks and wash them for the same reason I will pick up my husband's and wash them. 

[OneStepAtATime]

Personally, I would rather teach my kids that we defer to those with more wisdom in a particular area, not automatically whoever has more money.

The bolded really speaks to me, though I had not thought of it in those terms specifically.  I want my kids to recognize that others may have more wisdom and they should listen and seriously consider the words of those who have more experience, etc.  But I don't want them thinking that only someone who earns money has value or the right to say anything.

[zoobie]

I think her beginning to question authority and railing against the "unfairness" of life is developmentally appropriate. We focus on tone and timing of questioning with our oldest two, and we tell them sometimes life is not fair. At 9, she cannot fully grasp the responsibility of adulthood or parenthood, but you can begin to explain it.

 

Everyone in a civilized society follows rules, even Dad. He follows laws and his employer's rules. At home, he may have different rules than a child, but he has different responsibilities too. My kids have to finish school and their assigned chores before they go swimming. Dad comes home from work and jumps in the pool with them. Yes, he has unfinished "chores" and is able to go swimming anyway; the household rules are different for Dad. On the surface, that one inconsistency is not "fair," but let's look at why he is doing what he's doing. He wants to spend time with his kids, number one. Plus, he got up early, had a long, stressful day at work earning the money to pay for the house and pool and food, and he needs a break. The child has not done the same.

 

I think that teaching kids to evaluate the entirety of the situation is important, and it's important to teach them how to figure out who holds the power and why. If they don't like the rules of a situation, what's the best way to effectuate change? Having them overestimate their power does not do them any favors later in life. I may ask them what they want for dinner, and if they come up with what I judge to be reasonable requests, I will buy that and cook it. If they say Cheetos and Cool Whip, that's not going to happen. You can eat Cheetos and Cool Whip for meals when you are buying the groceries. That's simplistic, but it works for most household decisions. The people who pay the bills make the rules. Those rules may be really strict or really lax, but there are in fact rules. As much as I'd like to pretend my house is a democracy, it's deep deep down more of a benevolent dictatorship, and I don't see that changing. We may make rules that we later decide to change, but we make the rules because we pay the bills and are responsible for these little people. We don't make them capriciously, and we try to make them for the good of everyone, but we are responsible for making the final decision. Even if the kids return to the house as adults, it's not going to be without rules of any kind.

 

Anyway, most of the time when my kids complain about a rule, they just want acknowledgment that sometimes it sucks not to do whatever you want when you want it.

 

**written on my phone while nursing a 2 week old, so pretend it's coherent. ;)

[Haiku]

No one here has suggested that kids don't have value because they don't earn money. Good grief. Adults who earn the money and/or have more responsibilities than kids do get more and different privileges because they are responsible for more. If I pay the bills and/or run the house, then my kids should respect the fact that I work hard to provide them with what they have and not nag me about small things they don't like.

[Paige]

Because dad does not care to be nagged in his own castle. She's lucky to receive a reprimand.  Many dads would give her the cleanup job, since she obviously has the time and the skill.

 

 

 

But asking politely is not necessarily nagging. Nagging would be asking repeatedly after receiving an answer. Husband's irritation with a simple question is his own problem and likely stems from the fact that he recognizes that he's wrong to expect things from the children that he doesn't do. He doesn't want to be confronted with truth. But that's his problem and should not be transferred to her. If she was polite and genuinely didn't know, and at 9, that's not unlikely, then I don't think she should be reprimanded. It will cause her to become less likely to ask questions. He could easily have answered something like, "Sorry, Sweetie. Sometimes I don't have the best habits but I hope you will grow up to be better." If she keeps asking, he could say that they've already discussed this and it's not her job to tell him what to do. Nicely.

 

I guess it depends on the child's motive. Does she genuinely want to know? In that case a simple answer that adults are responsible for themselves and their own habits should suffice. She may not like the answer, but it's the truth. Sometimes parents don't have the habits we want our children to develop and nagging them about it is out of line. 

 

If the question was designed to criticize as get out of her own work, then it's a problem of attitude and tone. 

 

With my DC, I find that we sometimes incorrectly assume they know more than they do. I assume attitude when really they genuinely are confused and just want an answer. 

[Katy]

,

most people get up and have to go to work in the morning, so that is a lame excuse to not simply put laundry where it goes. it doesn't take very long - and in fact takes longer and makes more work for others to drop it on the floor first.  dh used to get up every morning - before he started working for himself.  he also traveled on a regular basis in previous jobs.

 

I'm his wife - not his servant.  I would consider it very disrespectful to me (and incredibly juvenile of him), if he dumped stuff on the floor because he's "too tired" (re: lazy) to put it where it goes, and expecting me to come along behind him and pick it up.  He's a grown up - and very capable of putting his own socks in the laundry, and his shoes in the closet.  

 

 

Ahhh, well DH has ADHD, and while he likes living in a nicely kept house, that's not his skill set.  I knew that when I first saw his place when we were dating.  I studied all kinds of organizational systems, read books about organizing for ADHD, and I do the organizing for him, to the extent that I pay attention to where he drops his keys and wallet (in a different place each day), so that when he leaves at 4 something in the morning I can tell him where to find them.   He used to spend twenty minutes looking for those things every time he left the house before he lived with me.   There are weaknesses of mine that he complements too. Those are the things we negotiated in our relationship.

 

That said, I'm not negotiating relationships with my kids.  If the ones that are inclined to be slobs were as messy as they are inclined to be, my house would be on an episode of hoarders.  I'll pick up after DH, but they need to learn better habits and that's what we're training them to have.  They can be as messy as they want to be when they have their own place.

 

eta: nagging child the other day has had all of this explained before, and didn't care for the actual answer.  Was just in a judgmental, entitled mood that I tend to have little tolerance for.

[Haiku]

Husband's irritation with a simple question is his own problem and likely stems from the fact that he recognizes that he's wrong to expect things from the children that he doesn't do. 

 

Or it could be that the child constantly questions him, which is tiring and apt to put one in a less than receptive mood. 

[Katy]

I think her beginning to question authority and railing against the "unfairness" of life is developmentally appropriate. We focus on tone and timing of questioning with our oldest two, and we tell them sometimes life is not fair. At 9, she cannot fully grasp the responsibility of adulthood or parenthood, but you can begin to explain it.

 

Everyone in a civilized society follows rules, even Dad. He follows laws and his employer's rules. At home, he may have different rules than a child, but he has different responsibilities too. My kids have to finish school and their assigned chores before they go swimming. Dad comes home from work and jumps in the pool with them. Yes, he has unfinished "chores" and is able to go swimming anyway; the household rules are different for Dad. On the surface, that one inconsistency is not "fair," but let's look at why he is doing what he's doing. He wants to spend time with his kids, number one. Plus, he got up early, had a long, stressful day at work earning the money to pay for the house and pool and food, and he needs a break. The child has not done the same.

 

I think that teaching kids to evaluate the entirety of the situation is important, and it's important to teach them how to figure out who holds the power and why. If they don't like the rules of a situation, what's the best way to effectuate change? Having them overestimate their power does not do them any favors later in life. I may ask them what they want for dinner, and if they come up with what I judge to be reasonable requests, I will buy that and cook it. If they say Cheetos and Cool Whip, that's not going to happen. You can eat Cheetos and Cool Whip for meals when you are buying the groceries. That's simplistic, but it works for most household decisions. The people who pay the bills make the rules. Those rules may be really strict or really lax, but there are in fact rules. As much as I'd like to pretend my house is a democracy, it's deep deep down more of a benevolent dictatorship, and I don't see that changing. We may make rules that we later decide to change, but we make the rules because we pay the bills and are responsible for these little people. We don't make them capriciously, and we try to make them for the good of everyone, but we are responsible for making the final decision. Even if the kids return to the house as adults, it's not going to be without rules of any kind.

 

Anyway, most of the time when my kids complain about a rule, they just want acknowledgment that sometimes it sucks not to do whatever you want when you want it.

 

**written on my phone while nursing a 2 week old, so pretend it's coherent. ;)

 

This was really good.  You just said everything I was struggling to say and I don't have a newborn.  :hurray:

 

[gardenmom5]

some kids this age figure out how to become 'self-employed' doing something they are good at.  be it crafts, mowing a neighbors lawn, dog-walking, etc. whatever.

I agree Hoppy.  My 12 year old wants a job.  He doesn't understand why he can't get a job just because he is a kid.  He takes it that far.  So am I going to throw it in his face that he doesn't matter and needs to shut up because he doesn't earn money?  He couldn't even if he wanted to.

 

My 8 year old is opposite.  He is perfectly happy being a kid and being told what to do. 

 

[JumpyTheFrog]

I'm not saying that our house is a democracy, but reading through the posts, I noticed how many people basically said, "We pay the bills, so we get to make (and break) the rules," except that many of us here don't have an income. I suspect that while many of you reference "paying the bills" gives you the right to demand respectful obedience of your kids, some of you really set the rules because you have more wisdom and responsibility for them than your kids, not because of the money. Otherwise, if any of us ever have financial trouble that requires us to move back in with our parents, what's to keep them from saying they are paying the bills, so they get to set the rules?

[JumpyTheFrog]

My kids have to finish school and their assigned chores before they go swimming. Dad comes home from work and jumps in the pool with them. Yes, he has unfinished "chores" and is able to go swimming anyway; the household rules are different for Dad.

 

Anyway, most of the time when my kids complain about a rule, they just want acknowledgment that sometimes it sucks not to do whatever you want when you want it.

The rules aren't really different for dad. You could just as easily frame the swimming issue as "Everyone needs to work for X hours before they can swim." Since he is most assuredly worked longer than them, he meets the requirement, even if he has cleaning to do before bed.

 

I agree that often kids really want sympathy when they complain.

[gardenmom5]

it depends upon what they do - some things don't have a lot of start up costs.

 

(I did amend my post to add lawn mowing, and dog walking.)

I knew a couple who decided they didn't want their children to have a maid cleaning up after them (they lived overseas, and their employer provided one.  the children complained they were required to clean their own rooms.) - so they moved back to the states where they not only got to clean their own room, but mow the lawn too.  if the boys wanted money - they were expected to earn it.  he bought a lawn mower and they made a small business out of mowing neighbors lawns.  that skill/experience served them well in college and starting out in their careers.

think of it as an investment in their education. - they will learn a lot about business, even if the best they do is just to make ends meet.

Not without help and financial backing.

 

 

eta:  I know a couple who once got a phone call their son was going around the neighborhood trying to sell a dead rat. . . . . they asked him who he thought would want to buy one.  someone with a cat.  needless to say - he has been *very* successful in his career in sales. (and he understands business.)

[LucyStoner]

Adult status comes with responsibility.

 

Tell her that if she wants "adult" status or "equal footing" with you and your DH, she would need to start paying for her insurance, food, share of water, gas, and electric bills, ect. ect.

 

She doesn't have and is not capable of taking on adult responsibilities yet. Thus, she doesn't get to treat adults as equals: she should respect and honor you, your DH, and other adults for the responsibilities and sacrifices you take on to ensure her welfare and to provide for her.

Do you really think that respect boils down to being only due to those who pay the bills?

[Haiku]

Do you really think that respect boils down to being only due to those who pay the bills?

 

The people who work to pay the bills have more responsibility. Therefore they get more say and have greater privileges. When my kids have their own place (which most likely they will have to work to pay for), then they get to do things their way. It's not about money. It's about responsibility. Saying "those who earn the money" is just a way of saying "those who have more responsibility."

 

I'm starting to get the sense from reading replies on this thread that people don't really think that greater privileges come with greater responsibilities.

[Dmmetler]

(((hugs)))

 

We looked at a couple of neighborhoods that might be possible targets if we end up having to transfer for DH's job. DD was very, very upset that we weren't consulting her on a possible move-and was very frustrated that "I don't have any voice in this family". The fact is, where we live can't be left up to her-not right now, anyway. It really isn't even entirely up to DH, because just because his company is being flexible about him telecommuting doesn't mean they always will be.

 

She really has trouble with tone, too and requests vs demands, and taking a "know it all" attitude/tone for topics that are ones where she DOES know a lot about them-but ends up coming off rude. I think part of it is age, and part of it is that she gets so validated around other adults at times because she IS a smart cookie, There's one particular mom of one of her friends who pretty much seems to put DD on a pedestal and treats her not only as an equal but in some ways as a superior, and I always have a hard time with DD after she's spent time with that mom (the mom has had a difficult life and tends to defer to everyone who at all exhibits a strong opinion-and DD is fully capable of taking advantage), and I've seen the same happen with some of the younger, less sure of themselves adults around her. Then, when she's with someone who isn't going to let a 9 yr old rule the roost, she has a hard time adjusting and gets frustrated by the changing rules. It's definitely a work in progress.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LucyStoner]

I'm starting to get the sense from reading replies on this thread that people don't really think that greater privileges come with greater responsibilities.

No, that is not it at all. I think that respect isn't something people buy, it's something we all earn (or not) based on our qualities and how we treat each other. My mother was disabled and I provided for her for most of my young adulthood (she died when I was 28). I still had great respect for her. I started working and earning money of my own when was 12.

 

There are in fact many people who may pay all or some of the bills but merit little to no respect or trust.

 

If my kid were somehow financially secure independent of me (say a child actor or something), I would still expect them to respect me.

 

But I respect my family members for things less superficial than dollars.

[chocolatechip]

Do you really think that respect boils down to being only due to those who pay the bills?

No. Not at all. I didn't say that, either - I only said that adult status comes with responsibility. One way adults take responsibility is by paying bills. Of course, this is not always true. Eventually there will be an adult whom children should respect because he/she is an adult, even if that individual doesn't contribute financially. I'm thinking of my uncle, who had fallen into a rough spot in life and was living with his parents. Of course it would have been vastly inappropriate for myself and my cousins to treat him as our equal simply because he didn't have a job or a way to support himself - he was (is) still an adult.

 

I don't think at all that children's opinions don't matter simply because they pay no bills. I think it is perfectly acceptable for children to ask adults questions respectfully. 

 

However, that was not the idea I got of the situation from what the OP wrote. Her daughter doesn't understand why she can't have adult status, "literally feels as though she should have the right to treat adults as peers" (to quote the OP,) and her questions are posed in a rude, disrespectful manner. I didn't get the feeling the OP felt she shouldn't have to respect her daughter. I have no doubt that the OP truly wants to help her daughter understand this problem in a gentle way. 

 

But.

 

Granting adult status to a child is different from giving respect to a child. 

 

The OP and her DH should be able to respect and value their daughter and her opinions without having to put up with an 8-yr-old treating them as her equals.

 

I gave that opinion in my pp simply because I felt it might be a good way to help the OP's child understand how different the adult's world is. Kids see all the "perks" of being adults, but sometimes they don't realize what some of the sacrifices are. 

 

I'm sorry if my previous post was unnecessarily harsh. 

[Haiku]

But I respect my family members for things less superficial than dollars.

 

I don't.

 

:lol:

 

Seriously, as I have now said multiple times, it's not about the money. It's not. It'snotit'snotit'snot. That's why it wouldn't matter if your kid were financially independent from you. You would still be the one who runs the household and makes the decisions because you have more RESPONSIBILITIES. One of those responsibilities, in most families, is earning the money to keep the family afloat, the children housed, clothed, and fed. So in a sense, being the one who earns the money means you get more privileges, but NOT because you are more valuable or more worthy of respect. It's because you have shouldered more of the responsibility of providing financially for the family.

 

If you still don't understand where I am coming from, then I give up.

 

Btw, I got my first job selling sno-cones at the Sno Shack when I was 12. I became a busser at a restaurant when I was 13. At 16 I was working in a pizza place. Just because I earned my own money didn't mean I got to tell my parents how to run their own home. Guess when I got to make all the decisions about how the household ran. When I got my first apartment!

[Haiku]

Kids see all the "perks" of being adults, but sometimes they don't realize what some of the sacrifices are. 

 

Absolutely. My oldest dd didn't really understand this until she went away to college and suddenly, I wasn't there all the time to help her solve her problems. Suddenly she got clued in to the fact that being a kid and being an adult are very different. (And my dh and I spent A LOT of time when she was a junior and senior in high school preparing her to function independently, and she STILL didn't get it until she had to actually DO it on her own.)

[LucyStoner]

I really don't see what the big deal is about saying that:

 

-kids aren't freeloaders. To paraphrase one of my favorite WTM posters, these kids aren't people who showed up on my doorstep and banged loudly to be let in and raid my fridge.

I recall making the choice to have them.

-money doesn't buy respect (unless you're looking for the same sort of respect you could get selling crack on the corner)

-respect is something we show others, of all ages.

-some people who may or may not pay the bills aren't people that have earned or maintained respect. Responsibilities to family far exceed merely the financial.

 

The single thing people mentioned the most often on this thread is paying the bills. I'm sorry, in my home no one is above being told to pick up their crap no matter how many bills they pay.

[chocolatechip]

I really don't see what the big deal is about saying that:

 

-kids aren't freeloaders. To paraphrase one of my favorite WTM posters, these kids aren't people who showed up on my doorstep and banged loudly to be let in and raid my fridge.

I recall making the choice to have them.

-money doesn't buy respect (unless you're looking for the same sort of respect you could get selling crack on the corner)

-respect is something we show others, of all ages.

-some people who may or may not pay the bills aren't people that have earned or maintained respect. Responsibilities to family far exceed merely the financial.

And I would agree wholeheartedly with all of these points. 

 

I don't feel that these values come into conflict with my opinion as expressed above.

[zoobie]

I'm not saying that our house is a democracy, but reading through the posts, I noticed how many people basically said, "We pay the bills, so we get to make (and break) the rules," except that many of us here don't have an income. I suspect that while many of you reference "paying the bills" gives you the right to demand respectful obedience of your kids, some of you really set the rules because you have more wisdom and responsibility for them than your kids, not because of the money. Otherwise, if any of us ever have financial trouble that requires us to move back in with our parents, what's to keep them from saying they are paying the bills, so they get to set the rules?

My parents do set the rules in their house. I respect their rules when we are visiting, and I would expect to follow them if I were living there. They don't have crazy rules, or I wouldn't visit, but that's the choice each of us as adults gets to make. You own the house, you set the rules. Other adults choose whether to enter your house. Acknowledging that I hold the power because I pay the bills doesn't mean that I expect blind, first time obedience from anyone who darkens the doorway. Choosing not to set or enforce rules is also an exercise of power.

[Katy]

Oh goodness gracious.  Am I the only person that thought the freeloaders comment was a joke? 

 

Does everything have to devolve into strict vs. liberal parenting snark?  Sometimes the way we parent has a lot more to do with our individual cultures than people around here seem to think.  Cultures vary a lot just in the USA, let alone in all the countries represented here on the board.

 

I take for granted that most people here invest a lot of time and energy into being the best parents possible for their kids.  I wish I'd stop seeing people here argue that *their* way is the best way, angrily implying that anyone who doesn't parent exactly the same way as them is abusing their power as a parent.

[Haiku]

I really don't see what the big deal is about saying that:

 

-kids aren't freeloaders. To paraphrase one of my favorite WTM posters, these kids aren't people who showed up on my doorstep and banged loudly to be let in and raid my fridge.

I recall making the choice to have them.

-money doesn't buy respect (unless you're looking for the same sort of respect you could get selling crack on the corner)

-respect is something we show others, of all ages.

-some people who may or may not pay the bills aren't people that have earned or maintained respect. Responsibilities to family far exceed merely the financial.

 

The single thing people mentioned the most often on this thread is paying the bills. I'm sorry, in my home no one is above being told to pick up their crap no matter how many bills they pay.

 

I don't disagree with any of your points. I do think, however, that you have taken people's colloquial use of "paying the bills" to mean something that people keep telling you it doesn't literally mean.

 

I think everyone here is pretty much in agreement that we can respect our kids without giving them all of the same privileges that we get as adults.

 

And honestly, my dh pays for the house I live in, the food I eat, and everything I buy, as I no longer work (as of two blessed months ago). If he wants to throw his socks on the floor, he can (after all, he bought those, too). I don't like it, and I may tell him it annoys me, and because he loves me he will make an effort to pick up his socks (although it's not as high on his priority list as it is on mine, so it doesn't get done as often as I like), but I am not going to nitpick him about it, because his willingness to work full time means I don't have to. I benefit greatly from his effort to support the family. So do my kids. So I wouldn't allow them to be rude to him about something like leaving his stuff around.

 

And THAT is the crux of the OP's complaint. Her dd is rude to and disrespectful of her father. Sorry, doesn't fly in my home.

[Haiku]

Oh goodness gracious.  Am I the only person that thought the freeloaders comment was a joke? 

 

When I was a kid, my dad would often refer to us as his "little non-contributors." Never once did I think, "Gee, my dad doesn't respect me since I don't pay the bills."

 

He now refers to his pets as "non-contributors." I don't think the pets are offended.

 

I have in the past accused my children of "hanging around my bedsit looking for things to steal," by which I mean they are dependents. They know this is a line from a movie (one they have never seen, but they still know it's a quote), and they think it's funny.

 

Much of humor comes from not taking things literally.

 

Like the recent IFL Science headline that "Uranus takes a pounding more frequently than thought."  :lol:

[gardenmom5]

   My husband's boss also offered him a mini project over the summer (that won't pay anything, but they will probably give him a gift card or something like that). 

 

 

it might not pay this year - but he can put it on a resume for the future.  ds was 15 when he got his first paying job - as a beta tester.  unfortunately with the labor laws he couldn't stay on for the school year, as the owner of the company would have been happy to keep him.

 

has he ever considered looking into designing apps?  there's lots of information online he can read up, and see if it sparks any ideas.

[gardenmom5]

Absolutely. My oldest dd didn't really understand this until she went away to college and suddenly, I wasn't there all the time to help her solve her problems. Suddenly she got clued in to the fact that being a kid and being an adult are very different. (And my dh and I spent A LOT of time when she was a junior and senior in high school preparing her to function independently, and she STILL didn't get it until she had to actually DO it on her own.)

 

ah yes, the months after dd bought her house and was freaking out because "where did all the money go?"  (dh gave her a spreadsheet to actually track where the money was going.  she had never been interested before, even though we tried to talk to her about it.  and dh is a finance guy.)  she was relieved to see she has more than she thought - but this is what it took to register.

 

she used to make references about being the baby eagle that the parents had to make the nest really uncomfortable for so they'd fledge.

[Katy]

it might not pay this year - but he can put it on a resume for the future.  ds was 15 when he got his first paying job - as a beta tester.  unfortunately with the labor laws he couldn't stay on for the school year, as the owner of the company would have been happy to keep him.

 

has he ever considered looking into designing apps?  there's lots of information online he can read up, and see if it sparks any ideas.

 

Did you check with the office in your county that issues work permits to be sure that's the case?  I know it depends on state law, but sometimes when you work something *for school credit* things are different, and sometimes they'll just give a work permit to get around the typical rules (there are still limits, like not working after 9 pm, not climbing ladders or doing anything dangerous, etc). 

 

I would think another way to get around that, although a huge pain for tax purposes, would be for him to open his own business as a freelance beta tester.  He'd have to pay into taxes & social security quarterly himself, and some states have rules about 50% of the money going into a trust fund, etc, so you'd have to check, but if he's found an opportunity like that you might want to look into it.

[chocolatechip]

This would offend me.  My mother used to "joke" that she was keeping tabs on how much she spent on me so she could send me the bill later on.  To this day I don't think that was all that funny. 

 

I really often felt like my parents couldn't wait for me to leave.  It was not a good feeling.  I didn't feel like I had a home.  I go out of my way to make sure my kids don't feel that way.

I'm sorry. That is hard. It must have felt like she resented you.  :sad:

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the way each of us looks at this whole issue is directly coloured by our personal experiences earlier in life.

[DawnM]

Um, just no, not happening.  This is an issue that will lead to disrespect later on.  

[Pronghorn]

I wonder if a family meeting might provide an appropriate forum for working out problems with unfair rules and such. You could even talk about strategies that can be used to present a problem at the meeting. (In day-to-day life I often tell my daughter that she needs to try a different strategy to get what she wants.)

 

Then, when your child drives you crazy with constant complaints, you can tell her you are putting the topic on the meeting agenda for later discussion. That gets you a mental break from the complaints while at the same time giving your child a voice. And if she uses a snotty voice at the meeting, you might tell her that you are having trouble hearing her rationale for her complaint due to her tone of voice. The ability to complain respectfully and persuasively is a great skill.

[LucyStoner]

I don't disagree with any of your points. I do think, however, that you have taken people's colloquial use of "paying the bills" to mean something that people keep telling you it doesn't literally mean.

 

I think everyone here is pretty much in agreement that we can respect our kids without giving them all of the same privileges that we get as adults.

 

And honestly, my dh pays for the house I live in, the food I eat, and everything I buy, as I no longer work (as of two blessed months ago). If he wants to throw his socks on the floor, he can (after all, he bought those, too). I don't like it, and I may tell him it annoys me, and because he loves me he will make an effort to pick up his socks (although it's not as high on his priority list as it is on mine, so it doesn't get done as often as I like), but I am not going to nitpick him about it, because his willingness to work full time means I don't have to. I benefit greatly from his effort to support the family. So do my kids. So I wouldn't allow them to be rude to him about something like leaving his stuff around.

 

And THAT is the crux of the OP's complaint. Her dd is rude to and disrespectful of her father. Sorry, doesn't fly in my home.

It's not clear to me how asking why dad can leave stuff out is disrespectful.

[JumpyTheFrog]

It sounds like "I pay the bills" is used literally by some people and metaphorically by others. I thought people were saying it was about the money because I took it literally. If people had said "because I have the responsibility" I wouldn't have been as uncomfortable with it. I have a chronic illness and was too sick to drive for a few years. I wasn't capable of earning money then even if we really, really needed it. Taking the idea of "I pay the bills, so I make the rules" literally would mean that my husband could've bossed me around because after all, it would be "his house."

 

My oldest (age 8) has a tendency to be mouthy and want to be completely in charge of himself. It's often very frustrating. On the other hand, we spent five years at a patriarchal/kids must always obey instantly or be spanked/stay-at-home daughter church. So when I read of people saying they get to make all the rules because they are parents and deserve respect, my tendency is to think of these parents and their obsession with controlling their kids, including adults. My whole experience there leads me to believe that this extreme control will backfire on many of them. It also leaves me feeling very leery of people playing the "I'm in authority and you must respect me" card. 

 

I realize that most people here aren't as extreme as the people at my former church. However, I've…. - Oops, I got interrupted and can't remember what I was going to say. If I remember later, I'll come back and finish my thought.

[gardenmom5]

Did you check with the office in your county that issues work permits to be sure that's the case?  I know it depends on state law, but sometimes when you work something *for school credit* things are different, and sometimes they'll just give a work permit to get around the typical rules (there are still limits, like not working after 9 pm, not climbing ladders or doing anything dangerous, etc). 

 

I would think another way to get around that, although a huge pain for tax purposes, would be for him to open his own business as a freelance beta tester.  He'd have to pay into taxes & social security quarterly himself, and some states have rules about 50% of the money going into a trust fund, etc, so you'd have to check, but if he's found an opportunity like that you might want to look into it.

 

this was years ago -  he's not a minor anymore.  he came to hate game testing.  especially the Barbie (or something like that) game.  that created nightmares.  he prefers hardware to software.

 

[Haiku]

It's not clear to me how asking why dad can leave stuff out is disrespectful.

It's not always what you say. It's how you say it. As I mentioned, this was a very, very difficult thing for my oldest to learn, and for years she came across as rude, shrill, demanding, and snotty. And it was not just her parents who thought so. And it wasn't just adults who thought so.

[Truscifi]

I would have to pass. I am trying to be mindful of what I eat so I have been making high protien, low sugar treat that tastes exactly like no bake cookies.

 

Can you post the recipe?! :drool5:

[OneStepAtATime]

It's not always what you say. It's how you say it. As I mentioned, this was a very, very difficult thing for my oldest to learn, and for years she came across as rude, shrill, demanding, and snotty. And it was not just her parents who thought so. And it wasn't just adults who thought so.

 

FWIW, this is something I have been trying to work really hard on with my kids.  I get what you are saying.  For instance. DS knows a lot about history and wants to talk about it all the time.  But it isn't easy to get him to see that depending on tone and body language he may come across as incredibly rude and a know-it-all instead of just someone interested in a topic and hoping to discuss it with someone else.

[JumpyTheFrog]

It's not always what you say. It's how you say it. As I mentioned, this was a very, very difficult thing for my oldest to learn, and for years she came across as rude, shrill, demanding, and snotty. And it was not just her parents who thought so. And it wasn't just adults who thought so.

 

If even other kids thought she sounded bratty, then she probably was. Tone is very important and is something I'm working on with Tigger. Little Guy (age 5) has a much easier time understanding that it's not the words, but the attitude that causes trouble.

 

I think a big part of disagreement comes based on what type of parents we've known. I've known a lot of nutty/extreme parents that are likely to view any questioning of anything as inherently disrespectful. If I'd never known them and only known average parents, I'd be more likely to wonder why others are so worked up about the idea of the parents being in charge and setting all the rules.

[Katy]

 

I think a big part of disagreement comes based on what type of parents we've known. I've known a lot of nutty/extreme parents that are likely to view any questioning of anything as inherently disrespectful. If I'd never known them and only known average parents, I'd be more likely to wonder why others are so worked up about the idea of the parents being in charge and setting all the rules.

 

Exploring nuance is one thing.  Assuming that a call for respect equals abuse is another thing entirely.

 

I don't generally know many controlling nut job parents that are interested in classical education. In fact, every one I've ever met is more interested in censorship than education. I guess that's why I think it's generally safe to assume that most people here aren't that type of homeschool family.

[City Mouse]

I think the original issue really goes beyond what the dad gets to leave his socks on the floor and is more about a child think she is "equal" to an adult.

 

I had a really long post written, then decided to get rid of most of it.

 

If the kid is responding this way as a result of not wanting to do a required task, I drop back to focusing on that she is not following direction. "You need to ..." Or "I asked you too ..." And completely ignore her arguing back at the time. When I was a brand new teacher, my school district used a social skills curriculum that taught steps for different skill, and one of those skills was "How to follow directions", another was "How to disagree appropriately"

 

If she has completed task and she is truly asking a question or disagreeing with something, then teach her how to ask that question in a way that is appropriate to your family. I would tell my DD something along the lines of "you have a valid question, but your tone (or word choice or both) is not appropriate, can you think of a better way to ask that question" This gives both the parent a child a chance to slow down and not react emotionally.

 

There are certain rights or privledges that come with age(such as drinking beer, smoking, getting a drivers license, or getting a tattoo), and that is just the way it is sometimes.

[Danestress]

In my house, there really isn't equal footing. I expect my kids to show love and respect to their parents and to follow our rules whether they think the are right or not, though I am willing to hear their opinions and consider them. I don't expect them to totally understand why DH and I are ultimately the decision makers. Hopefully someday they will see that their father and I had a self-sacrificial love for our children that made us safe people to trust and honor. I guess understanding that is a gradual process. I can't explain to a two year old why he has to obey me. I can't reason with him about why he has to sit in the car seat or why he can't have the steak knife. I rule that roost, though I do so patiently and hopefully with good humor.

 

With a nine year old, you can reason much more, but you can't always give them reasons that they will concede to be persuasive. Sometimes they choose to be unreasonable and will never concede, for example, that they lack the maturity to drive a car right now, but that this will come with time. Other times, there really is no logical reason for a rule - it's a matter of preference. You can't have a drum set because I can't bear the noise. That's just my preference. Sometimes my preferences rule the day, but this gets back to the sacrificial thing. By nine, I hope I have demonstrated nine years of devotion to my child's needs and some of her wants, so that she can see that, even if I insisted on absolute unquestioning power (I don't) I would probably pick to please her more often than I would choose to please myself, because it pleases me to please her. At nine, I don't think any of my children had demonstrated a consistent deep and abiding concern for the desires of everyone else in the family. They were all normal kids - really nice, kids who were basically nice to each other. But given the power to make decisions for the whole group, none of them at nine would have reliably made decisions that were based on what the three year old needs, or what Dad might like or what would be best for Mom long term. So really, I think DH and I are truly the right people to have that power, because I think we use that power more wisely. But of course I listen to my children with respect when they care to wage a campaign to change my mind.

 

I think leadership is a "he who would be first must be last" thing. I know there are plenty of horrible, selfish parents out there. But DH and I aren't those parents, and you probably aren't either. We are the authorities in our homes, but I think we put our kids first much of the time. We quit our jobs to educate them, keep unloved job to provide for them, give up our luxuries so they can have guitar lessons, wear old clothes because they need new coats, forgo opportunities because they would disrupt our children's schedules. And we choose this. This is a wonderful part of being a parent - loving some one so much that you no longer even want much to do anything that wouldn't be best for your child, because the thing you want most is your child's well being. I don't expect my children to realize that now or to thank me, and I don't think they "owe me" much in exchange Parenting was my choice. But I also don't feel guilty about choosing to put some rules and procedures in place that seem right to me even if the kids don't like them.

 

Sometimes a child will pester me about something until I just say, "OK, I heard you. I am not going to continue to argue about this. Your objections are noted for the record, but my decision stands." I am sure my kids hate that, but I only have so much time and energy to argue with a child or to try to convince him of my wisdom. Other times, a child does convince me to change something or give a new privilege. But I do have some expectations of my children showing me respect and deference. I expect to be called "Mom" and not by my first name. I expect them to obey rules whether they agree with the or not. I expect them to be polite to me and to each other. I expect them to observe my boundaries. If I have rules that seem stupid to them (no dog on the furniture, no food out of the kitchen, no friends over when I am not home) I don't care if they roll their eyes about my dumb rules, but I expect them to obey them. In a way, these "personal preference" type rules are really a way of creating boundaries with kids - I devote a lot of time, energy and money to them, and I need a little peace, tidiness etc in order to function well. Rules like "pick up your stuff" are mostly there to please Mom (in my house), who wants things tidy. If Dad leaves his stuff there, honestly, it's not a child's place to point that out. "Pick up your stuff" may be something Mom requires of the kids, and Mom may not care so much if Dad does it, knowing, as she does, that Dad makes a million and one sacrifices for her, and she's ok with picking his stuff up for him or letting him pick his stuff up when he feels like it. I would probably nicely explain to that child that Mom and Dad, who ultimately are responsible for the house and do vastly more housework than anyone else get more leeway on choosing when to do particular chores. But in my house, that is actually true. I don't require much of my boys around the house, so I do expect them to defer to me in those small things. But if they were bearing more of the housework load, I think they could fairly expect to have more consideration for their ideas about what procedures should be in place.

[mathnerd]

Asking "why" and questioning authority are important things that a child needs to learn - and learning how to do so in a "safe" environment at home is far more preferable to learning how to do these things outside where they may not feel safe. But, the tone has to be respectful.

Within our family, we never restrict the right to ask questions or confront behavior that is not acceptable. But, I also teach that correcting adults is not my responsibility because the adults are making wilful choices when they break house rules. My DH cannot stop cursing when he is emotional - and my child questions why he is allowed to do so - I always tell him that I am not responsible for how adults choose to behave, but I am responsible for bringing up my child to be a person with good values which include not using swear words and it is a requirement for him to talk respectfully in our house.

My child also questions why my DH can get away with not doing his chores - and I tell him that adults have many responsibilities while a child has fewer responsibilities in comparison. So, if my husband is not doing his chores because his job involves him working late nights, commuting and travelling, we as a family can help him out by backing him up and doing his chores for him. 

[*Lulu*]

We have some very basic house rules:

 

We speak to each other kindly.

We touch each other gently.

We are honest.

We are responsible.

We stay where we are supposed to be.

 

Everyone is expected to do the above in an age appropriate manner. Even the adults. I have absolutely spoken unkindly to my children and come back to apologize.

 

As for the kids questioning why they have to do a chore that Dad doesn't do.....

 

1) Everyone helps out, that is part of what you do in a family.

2) Dad has responsibilities that he handles, (grocery shopping, paying the bills online, edging the lawn, etc.), Dad doesn't say it isn't fair that he has a chore that you don't do.

3) Some of the chores you do are things we want you to learn because you'll need to know how when you're grown. Dad and I already know how to do that chore and it will be ours again when you grow up and leave home.

 

As for a child reprimanding an adult:

 

The rules on manners apply to everyone equally.

 

The worst display of manners is pointing out the poor manners of others unless they are your child or charge.

[Haiku]

Respect would be accepting the choice that dad made, unless of course it is ice cream melting on the counter, in which case child needs to check on dads health and if ok ask politely if he thinks it is soft enough to scoop and would he like 2 or 3 scoops in his bowl now, or should it just go back in the freezer.

 

I have a friend who was raised in India. He was raised such that, when his father entered a room (any room), he stood up and remained standing until his father was comfortably seated. He was to meet his father at the door when his father returned home so that he could take his father's brief case, coat, and hat, brush the dust off, and put them away. He was to open doors for his mother any time he was with her. He was to look after his younger brother without being asked and without resentment.

 

Nowadays I would imagine most American parents would be horrified by this, but back in the day right here in America this was considered manners. I'm not sure it's always a good thing that we have become more casual. 

[*Lulu*]

And I wanted to add that everyone in our house is responsible for their own stuff. No one picks up Daddy's clothes but Daddy. Momma might wash Daddy's clothes, but she rarely folds or puts away his things.

 

(Let's be real- Momma only washes Daddy's stuff because they share a laundry basket and because in the 17 years they have known each other he has managed to ruin more than one of Momma's items through improper laundering. It's all about him not messing up my wardrobe! :P)

[Χά�ων]

I agree Hoppy.  My 12 year old wants a job.  He doesn't understand why he can't get a job just because he is a kid.  He takes it that far.  So am I going to throw it in his face that he doesn't matter and needs to shut up because he doesn't earn money?  He couldn't even if he wanted to.

 

My 8 year old is opposite.  He is perfectly happy being a kid and being told what to do. 

Would your 12 year old like the list of jobs that my 10 year old has come up with in order to make money? I can leave out the farm jobs. :)

 

Can you post the recipe?! :drool5:

Sure. Fair warning I did a throw together the last bits of stuff before heading to the store job.

 

I use

1/4 Coconut oil

1/2 Honey

Touch of vanilla extract

Tablespoon of ground flax

Some peanut butter (no clue how much, there was a bit in the container and I wanted the container out of my fridge, no more than 1/4 cup)

Almonds

semi sweet chocolate chips

 

I took 3 (or was it 4?) cups of almonds and tossed them into the food processor with a handful of semi-sweet chocolate chips. Blend. The important thing is to get the chocolate well blended. Do you shop at costco? It was about half of the hard plastic containers full of almonds.

 

I put the coconut oil and honey in a pot and heat until boiling while stirring. Remove from heat after it it boils for one minute.

 

Stir in peanut butter (or any nut butter sub), flax and vanilla then add the almond and chocolate meal. Stir. Drop a table spoon onto a lined cookie sheet and refrigerate for 30 minutes.

 

Prepare to battle to defend them! DS is not a sweets person and he is going crazy over these. I am playing around with tweaking the recipe a bit but so far I have not come up with anything this yummy

[Χά�ων]

I have never told my son he has to open a door for me or anyone else, but he goes out of his way to do so. 

[LucyStoner]

Respect would be accepting the choice that dad made, unless of course it is ice cream melting on the counter, in which case child needs to check on dads health and if ok ask politely if he thinks it is soft enough to scoop and would he like 2 or 3 scoops in his bowl now, or should it just go back in the freezer.

 

???

[LucyStoner]

Let's just say in my house no one who leaves ice cream out on the counter gets their ego bruised over someone, of any age, saying "why is there ice cream melting on the counter? Let's eat this before it's soup!"

 

I think it is safe to say there are very different family cultures represented on this thread. That is ok.

[LucyStoner]

I think we may have differing definitions of "extremely abnormal".