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when a kid wants "equal footing"


musicianmom
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When I was on the kid side of this story, I was unable to see that maturity and experience really do matter an awful lot, 

 

I was just discussing this idea yesterday with my dd19, who was visiting from her summer job an hour away. We were discussing the difference between how we parented and how many of her friends' parents parented and whether we can observe a difference in outcome for the young adults in question.

 

One of the things I said to her was that when I was young, I was convinced that my parents just didn't understand. I mean, how could they, they were OLD and a million years ago when they were my age, everything was SO DIFFERENT. So they should just take my word on things because there was no way they could understand. Then I had kids and I realized that they understood everything much better than I ever had, and as I was raising my "parents just don't understand, you're not the boss of me" daughter, I could see exactly where my parents had stood, and I did things in raising my dd that I swore as a teen that I would never do with my kids, and I did them for the exact same reasons my parents did with me: they were older and wiser and more experienced and they had a much higher lever of understanding about things than I possessed when I was young and immature.

 

ETA: My dd's opinion, when she was a teen, was that the parents' job was to always make their kids happy. She told me that when she had kids, she was going to let them do whatever they wanted so that they would always be happy. After several discussions with her about the role of parents, I took to saying, "Then don't ever ask me to babysit your kids." (My dd was a master at beating a topic into the ground, so eventually we had to stop giving credible responses.) Now, her friend's sister has kids who get to do whatever they want, and she can't stand to be around them because they are so horrid. She no longer plans to let her kids do whatever they want all the time.

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I have a friend who was raised in India. He was raised such that, when his father entered a room (any room), he stood up and remained standing until his father was comfortably seated. He was to meet his father at the door when his father returned home so that he could take his father's brief case, coat, and hat, brush the dust off, and put them away. He was to open doors for his mother any time he was with her. He was to look after his younger brother without being asked and without resentment.

 

Nowadays I would imagine most American parents would be horrified by this, but back in the day right here in America this was considered manners. I'm not sure it's always a good thing that we have become more casual.

I'm neither horrified or impressed. That said, I much prefer my sons spontaneously and lovingly greeting my husband when he gets home from work.

 

Casual DOES NOT mean disrespectful. Formal does not automatically mean more respectful.

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Let's just say in my house no one who leaves ice cream out on the counter gets their ego bruised over someone, of any age, saying "why is there ice cream melting on the counter? Let's eat this before it's soup!"

 

I think it is safe to say there are very different family cultures represented on this thread. That is ok.

See at my house if someone leaves the ice cream on the counter no one will mention it but will instead grab a spoon and dig in. 

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I have never told my son he has to open a door for me or anyone else, but he goes out of his way to do so.

 

Mine does, too. My dh and I both hold doors open for people, but we have never had to tell our ds to do it. He just does it automatically, probably because he has always seen us do it. He also always opens my car door for me.

 

He's a sweetie. :001_wub:

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I'm neither horrified or impressed. That said, I much prefer my sons spontaneously and lovingly greeting my husband when he gets home from work.

 

I think it is a false dichotomy to imply that someone who is expected to greet their father at the door isn't also lovingly doing so.

 

 

 

Casual DOES NOT mean disrespectful. Formal does not automatically mean more respectful.

 

Nor did I say it does. But I do think that as a culture we have become more me-centered over the generations, and while in some ways it has freed people to lead more personally fulfilling lives, in other ways it has engendered a callousness toward others. I'm not playing in absolutes here. I don't see anywhere that I have made any all-or-nothing statements, but you seem to be taking everything I say that way.

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I think it is a false dichotomy to imply that someone who is expected to greet their father at the door isn't also lovingly doing so.

 

 

Nor did I say it does. But I do think that as a culture we have become more me-centered over the generations, and while in some ways it has freed people to lead more personally fulfilling lives, in other ways it has engendered a callousness toward others. I'm not playing in absolutes here. I don't see anywhere that I have made any all-or-nothing statements, but you seem to be taking everything I say that way.

I think you are reading my statements in the absolutes you are accusing me of using. My sons aren't expected to greet their dad but they do, spontaneously. That is something I value- that it's their choice. I am not inflexible in my thinking, but I do refuse to feel that things are only getting worse or going downhill. That's not what I see at all. I think this "me-me-me" stuff isn't anything particularly new. I think collectively we are a lot less callous in many ways than we used to be.
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Boy, this is an interesting conversation. I would say we fall somewhere in between the 2 camps here. My kids do question some, especially my fair minded dd and I appreciate that she really cares about equity but her age, maturity and experience means that her interpretation of things is often skewed to her own favor. If she can speak respectfully than we are usually happy to listen to her thoughts and opinions but there comes a time when a decision is made and sometimes she may not like it. On the socks example that wouldn't really be a discussion we would have here, just as we wouldn't discuss their brother or sister. My dh generally picks up after himself though, we all pick up after each other and chip in for most work we have to do. 

 

On one hand I think there are some that expect more respect from their kids than they deserve. Some treat their kids like second hand citizens, then again there are some that think everything their kids does is just fine and dandy. I had one friend I cut contact with largely because I found her daughter to be obnoxious, she was always questioning my parenting and suggesting I do various things. Now her mom thought this was so sweet and showed how mature she was, well maybe the first time but part of being mature is reading those cues and not bossing others around. 

 

I've also absolutely seen rude kids whose parents were very sweet people unfortunately they let their kids treat them like trash. I always thought that as long as you modeled good behavior then the kids would follow, no longer. 

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Honestly, my opinions are definitely colored by my family circumstances. My brother, who uses so many of the same words I've read on this thread to describe what he expects/demands from his kids? He goes to trial on DV charges in a week. I don't really expect to be neutral. I fully get that the language choices don't necessitate abuse but I bristle, on a visceral and admittedly not fully rational level, at the idea that kids owe their parents more respect than their parents show them.

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Oh goodness gracious.  Am I the only person that thought the freeloaders comment was a joke? 

 

 

 

Well, I wouldn't assume such a comment was a joke, because I have read many, many similar posts on the boards that were made in all seriousness. I once thought a poster was joking when she said their kids were not considered to 'own' anything, including gifts that were given to them, but alas she was not. Parents had control and ownership over everything in the house. Many other posters agreed with her, so no, I no longer assume that those comments are meant in a joking manner! 

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Well, I wouldn't assume such a comment was a joke, because I have read many, many similar posts on the boards that were made in all seriousness. I once thought a poster was joking when she said their kids were not considered to 'own' anything, including gifts that were given to them, but alas she was not. Parents had control and ownership over everything in the house. Many other posters agreed with her, so no, I no longer assume that those comments are meant in a joking manner! 

Me, either, actually.  One of my best friends since childhood ran into an issue when she headed off to college.  Her mother flat out told her that nothing in her bedroom was hers.  She would have to buy all new things when she moved out permanently. but she could borrow the stuff in her bedroom until she graduated.

 

Totally different viewpoint than my own parents.  When I moved out, I took my bed, mattress, dresser and all my clothes with their blessing.  If Mom and Dad had needed the bed I would have left it since they paid for it.  But I had slept on it since I was 6 so I think they got their money's worth and they made it clear this was my bed.  I could take it if I wished to.

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Some people have a strong inherent sense of justice, and that sometimes includes finding it difficult to be treated as anything less than equal. 

 

...

 

It's hard. However, I strongly believe that some people are just like this. It is not possible to change someone's nature. One can only nurture that nature in a way that benefits the child as well as others. Strong-willed people do absolutely have a contribution to offer to the world that more passive-minded folks cannot. That's what I keep telling myself when some aspect of parenting my iron-willed kids becomes hard. I also remind myself that I need to take a long-term view of the situation.

 

My oldest definitely has a strong sense of justice, combined with being impulsive and lagging behind in emotional control. I think in the long run, we'll have better results teaching him to calmly express his concerns without yelling than in getting him to just be quiet because we are the parents. He has an intense personality and could go on to do great things, if we can just teach him to harness that energy properly.

 

In contrast, I can think of a very compliant, submissive girl from our former church (or at least she was when I last saw her years ago). She is much easier to parent than her older brother…but as a teen and adult, she will probably be more likely to give into peer pressure. The compliant, passive types aren't the ones out changing the world, defending the weak, standing up against injustice. - At least that's how we try to comfort ourselves about our "spirited" oldest.

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Well, I wouldn't assume such a comment was a joke, because I have read many, many similar posts on the boards that were made in all seriousness. I once thought a poster was joking when she said their kids were not considered to 'own' anything, including gifts that were given to them, but alas she was not. Parents had control and ownership over everything in the house. Many other posters agreed with her, so no, I no longer assume that those comments are meant in a joking manner!

 

I remember that thread, and couldn't believe that she was serious -- but she was, and other people agreed with her! :eek:

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I remember that thread, and couldn't believe that she was serious -- but she was, and other people agreed with her! :eek:

I am glad I missed that thread. I joke with DS about my being the owner of his stuff but it is in good fun and he knows it. Legos are the big tthing here. I love legos and joke that he is just allowed to play with MY legos and that I have never bought him any. In reality he knows they actually belong to HIS children and that he is just the temporary caretaker until I get grandchildren.

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I don't consider myself a freeloader in my own life, so I don't ask someone to do something that I will not do myself. For example, if I ask you to clean the toilet that you helped dirty, you know that I have also cleaned the toilet in my turn. I don't consider any chore beneath me or anyone else in the house. I also don't tell anyone else to pick up their socks if my own are on the floor.

 

I think your daughter's question is a good one and it should be answered seriously and respectfully, in the manner in which you would like to be spoken to.  Children are, of course, not adults, but not because they don't provide monetary value for their existence. Is that really how some if you measure the the worth of a person now? Your loved ones have to pay to play? Do you set the old and infirm out into the night? In a family we take care of each other. Sometimes we leave our socks out. And sometimes we get told to pick them up. But sometimes the people in our lives pick up our socks for us because they know that   

Oh goodness gracious.  Am I the only person that thought the freeloaders comment was a joke? 

 

Does everything have to devolve into strict vs. liberal parenting snark?  Sometimes the way we parent has a lot more to do with our individual cultures than people around here seem to think.  Cultures vary a lot just in the USA, let alone in all the countries represented here on the board.

 

I take for granted that most people here invest a lot of time and energy into being the best parents possible for their kids.  I wish I'd stop seeing people here argue that *their* way is the best way, angrily implying that anyone who doesn't parent exactly the same way as them is abusing their power as a parent.

  

 

When I was a kid, my dad would often refer to us as his "little non-contributors." Never once did I think, "Gee, my dad doesn't respect me since I don't pay the bills."

 

He now refers to his pets as "non-contributors." I don't think the pets are offended.

 

I have in the past accused my children of "hanging around my bedsit looking for things to steal," by which I mean they are dependents. They know this is a line from a movie (one they have never seen, but they still know it's a quote), and they think it's funny.

 

Much of humor comes from not taking things literally.

 

Like the recent IFL Science headline that "Uranus takes a pounding more frequently than thought."  :lol:

 

I'm glad some people don't take everything literally. Sheesh. I'm the one who said "freeloader". Had I known it would be such a distraction I would have chosen different words. I only have teenagers and find that having a sense of humor makes life easier for everyone.

 

I hereby retract "freeloader" and ask that in its place everyone trust that I meant "minor child with neither the responsibilities nor the privileges of adulthood."

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Honestly, my opinions are definitely colored by my family circumstances. My brother, who uses so many of the same words I've read on this thread to describe what he expects/demands from his kids? He goes to trial on DV charges in a week. I don't really expect to be neutral. I fully get that the language choices don't necessitate abuse but I bristle, on a visceral and admittedly not fully rational level, at the idea that kids owe their children more respect than their parents show them.

Thank you for this. It helps to understand where you are coming from. Domestic violence is awful, and in no way did I intend to come across as feeling that kids don't ever have a valued voice or opinion.  :grouphug:

 

It is such a very complex issue.

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My oldest dd (almost 9) quiet literally feels as though she should have the right to treat adults as peers. She has stated clearly that she wants to be able to talk like a grown-up, and she gets really frustrated at being told repeatedly that she's being rude or disrespectful. She thinks that it's totally unfair that adults can correct children's behavior, but not the other way around. Why can't she ask her dad "Why do you leave your stuff lying around the house?" without receiving a reprimand?***

 

I empathize with her, having been that sort of kid myself. But empathy does not mean I think she should just get away with impertinence. Unfortunately, empathy also does not give me any bright ideas as to how to help her understand her role in life as a child.

 

As far as I know, she is respectful toward adults who don't live in the house with her. At least I haven't heard otherwise, and she's around plenty of people.

 

Any ideas?

 

*** Not the best example, just happened to be the most recent. Definitely tone had something to do with it.

See, I have no problem with my kid calling me out on something like that, when it's done politely. Particularly because the best way to get positive behavior is to model it.

 

At the same time, there is a hierarchy in the household, and she knows it's the adults in charge. So she is allowed to be a bit impertinent, but not rude. She can also negotiate, within communicated boundaries.

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I usually tell them that when they have their own home that they paid for, they can do whatever they want. They are allowed to question us to an extent, but respectfully.

Several people have posted that they tell their kids that very same thing, and it still makes absolutely no sense to me -- and I can't imagine that it would resonate very well with children, either. How is a young child going to relate to owning his own home someday?

 

Your kids already have their own home. It's the one they live in with you. Why would who paid for the house mean anything? :confused:

 

Comments like that sound mean and punitive, not constructive. You're not actually explaining a thing to the child other than that he has to do what you say because he doesn't own the house he lives in. That doesn't seem particularly useful to the kid, because you're not telling him why he's not getting what he wants. It's the equivalent of "because I said so."

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Several people have posted that they tell their kids that very same thing, and it still makes absolutely no sense to me -- and I can't imagine that it would resonate very well with children, either. How is a young child going to relate to owning his own home someday?

 

Your kids already have their own home. It's the one they live in with you. Why would who paid for the house mean anything? :confused:

 

Comments like that sound mean and punitive, not constructive. You're not actually explaining a thing to the child other than that he has to do what you say because he doesn't own the house he lives in. That doesn't seem particularly useful to the kid, because you're not telling him why he's not getting what he wants. It's the equivalent of "because I said so."

 

Why I don't say it in exactly that way, I have said something similar that meant "Too bad if you don't like it.  That is the rule.  You are the child and you'll get to make your own rules when you are an adult.  Until then you don't understand everything that I do about it and you're going to have to obey our rules whether you like it or not."

 

I'll explain that gently until I'm sure they understand.  If they're just griping because they'd rather play with an ipad than do their math I have to admit I've gotten snarky and shortened it to "Our house, our rules."  They know what it means.  They're quite bright that way.

 

I do tend to limit my snark to the entitled whining though.  If they're genuinely curious or genuinely want to negotiate something I handle it differently.  I even negotiate with them sometimes.  Today after I'd told one of them she could watch a movie on the big TV I realized I wanted to watch creativelive instead and traded use of the TV for a whole day movie marathon tomorrow where everyone gets to choose one movie instead of school work and the screen time doesn't count towards their weekly allowance.  They cheered.  They didn't know I planned on doing that tomorrow anyway due to the weather forecast.

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Why I don't say it in exactly that way, I have said something similar that meant "Too bad if you don't like it. That is the rule. You are the child and you'll get to make your own rules when you are an adult. Until then you don't understand everything that I do about it and you're going to have to obey our rules whether you like it or not."

 

I'll explain that gently until I'm sure they understand. If they're just griping because they'd rather play with an ipad than do their math I have to admit I've gotten snarky and shortened it to "Our house, our rules." They know what it means. They're quite bright that way.

 

I do tend to limit my snark to the entitled whining though. If they're genuinely curious or genuinely want to negotiate something I handle it differently. I even negotiate with them sometimes. Today after I'd told one of them she could watch a movie on the big TV I realized I wanted to watch creativelive instead and traded use of the TV for a whole day movie marathon tomorrow where everyone gets to choose one movie instead of school work and the screen time doesn't count towards their weekly allowance. They cheered. They didn't know I planned on doing that tomorrow anyway due to the weather forecast.

I think everyone gets a pass for saying something like that every now and then when they're down to their very last nerve and the kid has been driving them crazy! :)

 

My problem is when it's the rule rather than the exception.

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I've only read through part of the thread so I'm just responding to the op.

 

I never read the Ender's Game but there's a quote from Orson Scott Card I think is fitting here: "Never as a child did I feel like a child. I felt like a person all along -- the same person I am today."

 

I think about this a lot in my parenting and it definitely rings true for me when I was kid. I didn't feel like a kid really; I felt like me. The voice in my head is the same... I have just lived longer now. As a child, in my head, my thoughts and feelings were just as valid as my parents. Now that I'm a parent, I see just how rocked on the waves of emotions my kids are; how reactive they are and...just how rocked I was then. (And still sometimes am!)

 

But, regardless of whether your daughter is right or wrong, I would talk to her with this perspective in mind. While you may feel like saying, "sorry Charlie, deal with it" she's wrestling with what she perceives as injustice. How do you react when you see injustice? She needs guidance at where and how to channel that.

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I've only read through part of the thread so I'm just responding to the op.

 

I never read the Ender's Game but there's a quote from Orson Scott Card I think is fitting here: "Never as a child did I feel like a child. I felt like a person all along -- the same person I am today."

 

I think about this a lot in my parenting and it definitely rings true for me when I was kid. I didn't feel like a kid really; I felt like me. The voice in my head is the same... I have just lived longer now. As a child, in my head, my thoughts and feelings were just as valid as my parents. Now that I'm a parent, I see just how rocked on the waves of emotions my kids are; how reactive they are and...just how rocked I was then. (And still sometimes am!)

 

But, regardless of whether your daughter is right or wrong, I would talk to her with this perspective in mind. While you may feel like saying, "sorry Charlie, deal with it" she's wrestling with what she perceives as injustice. How do you react when you see injustice? She needs guidance at where and how to channel that.

beautifully put...ran out of likes a long time ago or I would like this.

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I've only read through part of the thread so I'm just responding to the op.

 

I never read the Ender's Game but there's a quote from Orson Scott Card I think is fitting here: "Never as a child did I feel like a child. I felt like a person all along -- the same person I am today."

 

I think about this a lot in my parenting and it definitely rings true for me when I was kid. I didn't feel like a kid really; I felt like me. The voice in my head is the same... I have just lived longer now. As a child, in my head, my thoughts and feelings were just as valid as my parents. Now that I'm a parent, I see just how rocked on the waves of emotions my kids are; how reactive they are and...just how rocked I was then. (And still sometimes am!)

 

But, regardless of whether your daughter is right or wrong, I would talk to her with this perspective in mind. While you may feel like saying, "sorry Charlie, deal with it" she's wrestling with what she perceives as injustice. How do you react when you see injustice? She needs guidance at where and how to channel that.

 

Beautiful. It's amazing how my emotions and thoughts as a child still mirror how I feel today. I strive to remember ds is the same way and just doesn't have the experience in responding and reacting that I do. 

 

Honestly, my son has had to deal with some heavy issues in the last few years, things I don't think teens should have to deal with, and he has done so with grace, maturity, and kept his sense of humor. If I didn't think this was his "home" already, he has earned a right to have a full say in most matters. I do think if I'd never previously taught him how to deal with the "injustice" of the world - like leaving socks around or why he has unload the dishwasher why I'm on facebook, I think he'd have a harder time with the extreme real life situations. As someone mentioned, home should be a safe place to question injustice and authority. 

 

You know, it's like that videos with my two year old, no one likes to wear pants, but it is the way the world works. Kids need to question some things to understand the why. 

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I have a friend who was raised in India. He was raised such that, when his father entered a room (any room), he stood up and remained standing until his father was comfortably seated. He was to meet his father at the door when his father returned home so that he could take his father's brief case, coat, and hat, brush the dust off, and put them away. He was to open doors for his mother any time he was with her. He was to look after his younger brother without being asked and without resentment.

 

Nowadays I would imagine most American parents would be horrified by this, but back in the day right here in America this was considered manners. I'm not sure it's always a good thing that we have become more casual.

 

I think that is quite lovely. And it depends on how they were "raised such that" it ended up that way.

 

I was raised that when my father yelled for a glass of tea, it was tyrannical. I could be outside playing and he could be in the kitchen and he would holler out the door for me to make him a glass of tea. He was being a power tripping turd.

 

Fast forward to me the last couple of years. I have never in my life demanded my kids make me a drink. Certainly not like my dad did. It's been over a year since I had to make my own cup of coffee. While I was pregnant with the last baby, one of my teen sons took it upon himself to make my morning coffee before heading out the door to walk to Mass. He in turn quietly made sure each morning that he or some other sibling he taught how to do it has done it ever since. This morning my 10 year old sneaked into my bedroom after the 3 year old came out (which is a clear signal that I'm probably waking up) to out a fresh pot on my night stand. He is ridiculously proud of himself for being big enough to do it. No one also ever told my kids to greet dad when he comes home. But it never fails there's 2-4 kids at the door ready to help him bring in groceries if he bought any, or give him a glass of Pepsi. Then the crowd parts so he can decompress and go get out of his work stink clothes.

 

To the outside observer we might look very similar to the Indian family you mention. Alas, no one ever believes me when I say we didn't "train" them to do it.

 

All that said, my dh is the WORST person in the house about leaving his shoes all over the house. It. Drives. Me. Batty. But I have no qualms whatsoever yelling at the kids to put their blasted shoes up or else! And nope, they wouldn't dare comment that they can bc dad can. (Bc one, they know this is something that dad gets in trouble for too.) LOL because then they'd get a lengthy lecture about how the next time they can't find their shoes then they can stay home cleaning house while everyone else who knows where their shoes are go do whatever. And yes, I have totally done that.

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I was an impertinent, although not rude, kid that didn't have any really peers amongst other kids, and I have a kid whose intellectual peers are adults, so we have had to travel a very rocky road with him. I had friends my age when I was young, as does he, but they aren't really peers in the deeper sense. Many of the "life isn't fair and some people have to work harder to get the equal treatment they deserve" conversations have occurred over the years. He wasn't raised in a "Mr. and Mrs." culture, but a culture of adults-known-by-first-names culture. Yeah, the first time someone corrected him and said call me "Mrs. M" and he came back, very politely, with , "Okay, Mrs. M. I would prefer to be called Mr. A," I was a bit proud of his impertinence. Fortunately for him, the woman thought it was cute. Since then, we've advised that perhaps he should ask new adults their preferred form of address and that he then supply them with his preferred form.

 

Personally, I don't think adulthood magically bestows someone with more wisdom or even life experience over every child in the world. I've met plenty of kids that deserve my respect far more than I deserve theirs. If my kids question authority genuinely and with logic, more power to them. I hope they call me out so I can check if my actions are really in line with the values I want to live by and bestow upon them. If they do it just to be defiant and see what they can get away with, then we need to have a talk to get to the root of that matter.

 

 

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People actually feel the same as adults as they did as kids? The brain isn't even the same brain. Thinking capabilities are not even close to the same. I am the parent and I get the last say because I have more experience, and my brain is able to work through things (or should be able to) at a different level then theirs. Does that meant that their thoughts and feelings don't mean anything? Absolutely not. Their thoughts and feelings are important for where they are in life and deserve to be treated as important for where they are in life. I will explain things the best I can and will listen to them the best I can, but sometimes, I have to have the final say and they have to be respectful of that because it's my job and I'm the adult. I am in a position of authority, which means I get a different level of respect. Authority figures can sometimes abuse that position and make those that they are caring for feel like pieces of dirt, or they can make those they care for actually feel cared for and heard.

 

If children were capable of the same level of thought and decision making as adults, then some things that happen to kids wouldn't be nearly as traumatizing for them. I for one, am very glad that my thought processes and feelings have matured and changed as I've grown up. Life was confusing and hard as a kid. Perhaps if one feels the same from when they were a kid it means that they were protected enough that they never had to deal with things that were beyond their capabilities as a child. Which would mean, someone was being the adult and making decisions for the kid.

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I think that is quite lovely. And it depends on how they were "raised such that" it ended up that way.

I was raised that when my father yelled for a glass of tea, it was tyrannical. I could be outside playing and he could be in the kitchen and he would holler out the door for me to make him a glass of tea. He was being a power tripping turd.

Fast forward to me the last couple of years. I have never in my life demanded my kids make me a drink. Certainly not like my dad did. It's been over a year since I had to make my own cup of coffee. While I was pregnant with the last baby, one of my teen sons took it upon himself to make my morning coffee before heading out the door to walk to Mass. He in turn quietly made sure each morning that he or some other sibling he taught how to do it has done it ever since. This morning my 10 year old sneaked into my bedroom after the 3 year old came out (which is a clear signal that I'm probably waking up) to out a fresh pot on my night stand. He is ridiculously proud of himself for being big enough to do it. No one also ever told my kids to greet dad when he comes home. But it never fails there's 2-4 kids at the door ready to help him bring in groceries if he bought any, or give him a glass of Pepsi. Then the crowd parts so he can decompress and go get out of his work stink clothes.

To the outside observer we might look very similar to the Indian family you mention. Alas, no one ever believes me when I say we didn't "train" them to do it.

Martha, your kids sound incredibly sweet and thoughtful. And I'll bet you did "train" them to be that way... by being a sweet and thoughtful mom to them. :)

 

There's a huge difference between kids who are "doing as they're told" and kids who automatically do the right thing because the behavior has been modeled to them for so long that it's simply "the right thing to do." Clearly, you're raising considerate, compassionate kids because you're a considerate and compassionate mom, and they love you for it.

 

My ds is always doing nice things for us because he loves and appreciates us -- not because we're "the ones who pay the bills." I'm sure the thought that, "they own the house so I'd better kiss up to them," has never even entered his mind, and for that I am thankful.

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People actually feel the same as adults as they did as kids? The brain isn't even the same brain. Thinking capabilities are not even close to the same. I am the parent and I get the last say because I have more experience, and my brain is able to work through things (or should be able to) at a different level then theirs. Does that meant that their thoughts and feelings don't mean anything? Absolutely not. Their thoughts and feelings are important for where they are in life and deserve to be treated as important for where they are in life. I will explain things the best I can and will listen to them the best I can, but sometimes, I have to have the final say and they have to be respectful of that because it's my job and I'm the adult. I am in a position of authority, which means I get a different level of respect. Authority figures can sometimes abuse that position and make those that they are caring for feel like pieces of dirt, or they can make those they care for actually feel cared for and heard.

 

If children were capable of the same level of thought and decision making as adults, then some things that happen to kids wouldn't be nearly as traumatizing for them. I for one, am very glad that my thought processes and feelings have matured and changed as I've grown up. Life was confusing and hard as a kid. Perhaps if one feels the same from when they were a kid it means that they were protected enough that they never had to deal with things that were beyond their capabilities as a child. Which would mean, someone was being the adult and making decisions for the kid.

 

 

No, actually, I can remember thinking and feeling same sentiments probably from the age of 12 or so - so maybe not what you consider a child. The critical thinking process has improved, obviously, with years and experience. I'm 47, so well into my adult years now. Experience has also taught me to make more mature choices, but some of the feelings about life, the universe, and everything are still the same. But I was one of those kids who knew what they wanted to do at age 12 and unfortunately let adults talk me out of it because I was "just a kid". 

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No, actually, I can remember thinking and feeling same sentiments probably from the age of 12 or so - so maybe not what you consider a child. The critical thinking process has improved, obviously, with years and experience. I'm 47, so well into my adult years now. Experience has also taught me to make more mature choices, but some of the feelings about life, the universe, and everything are still the same. But I was one of those kids who knew what they wanted to do at age 12 and unfortunately let adults talk me out of it because I was "just a kid".

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

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People actually feel the same as adults as they did as kids? The brain isn't even the same brain. Thinking capabilities are not even close to the same. I am the parent and I get the last say because I have more experience, and my brain is able to work through things (or should be able to) at a different level then theirs. Does that meant that their thoughts and feelings don't mean anything? Absolutely not. Their thoughts and feelings are important for where they are in life and deserve to be treated as important for where they are in life. I will explain things the best I can and will listen to them the best I can, but sometimes, I have to have the final say and they have to be respectful of that because it's my job and I'm the adult. I am in a position of authority, which means I get a different level of respect. Authority figures can sometimes abuse that position and make those that they are caring for feel like pieces of dirt, or they can make those they care for actually feel cared for and heard.

 

If children were capable of the same level of thought and decision making as adults, then some things that happen to kids wouldn't be nearly as traumatizing for them. I for one, am very glad that my thought processes and feelings have matured and changed as I've grown up. Life was confusing and hard as a kid. Perhaps if one feels the same from when they were a kid it means that they were protected enough that they never had to deal with things that were beyond their capabilities as a child. Which would mean, someone was being the adult and making decisions for the kid.

 

I don't think anyone is saying that the brain is the same, or that kids have the same decision-making capabilities as adults, or that kids don't need adults to guide and protect them. I think what is meant is that some people are the same person now as they were when they were kids. While a lot has changed in my life since I was little, I think this is true for me. I have always had a very strong sense of social justice, I have always been an animal lover, I have always been outspoken when I thought someone was being wronged or something was unfair, I have always felt knowledge and learning were important (that didn't translate into awesome grades in school, but that's another story), etc., etc. In short, yeah. I felt like a person--the same one I am now.

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Personally, I don't think adulthood magically bestows someone with more wisdom or even life experience over every child in the world. I've met plenty of kids that deserve my respect far more than I deserve theirs. 

 

You are probably right.  But I rarely have time to really accurately assess how much respect someone "deserves" in social situations - even someone I see regularly.

 

In one sense, I think everyone deserves respect.  Even a cop putting hand cuffs on a suspect can at least try to be as respectful as the situation allows.  That isn't an earned respect, necessarily, but just a social expectation that nice people show respect for others even in trying circumstances.  

 

Different people have different customs as to how to show that kind of "universal" respect.  I was raised with a lot of "please and thank you" and "Sir and Ma'am," but was not raised by parents with really strict obedience expectations, and I think we were allowed a fair amount of argument and debate.   We were not raised to try to send cues as to what we really thought about a person by the way we addressed him or her - so all men were, "Mr X" and it wasn't about whether they were good or bad people.  My parents would have been mortified if I called a particular adult by his first name as a way to communicate my lack of respect because of whatever his shortcomings as a person were.  

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I don't think anyone is saying that the brain is the same, or that kids have the same decision-making capabilities as adults, or that kids don't need adults to guide and protect them. I think what is meant is that some people are the same person now as they were when they were kids. While a lot has changed in my life since I was little, I think this is true for me. I have always had a very strong sense of social justice, I have always been an animal lover, I have always been outspoken when I thought someone was being wronged or something was unfair, I have always felt knowledge and learning were important (that didn't translate into awesome grades in school, but that's another story), etc., etc. In short, yeah. I felt like a person--the same one I am now.

:iagree:

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No, actually, I can remember thinking and feeling same sentiments probably from the age of 12 or so - so maybe not what you consider a child. The critical thinking process has improved, obviously, with years and experience. I'm 47, so well into my adult years now. Experience has also taught me to make more mature choices, but some of the feelings about life, the universe, and everything are still the same. But I was one of those kids who knew what they wanted to do at age 12 and unfortunately let adults talk me out of it because I was "just a kid".

When I have worked to process the traumas that occurred when I was 14 this has been one of my problems. I have difficulty reminding myself that my brain as it is now is not as it as then because I feel very much like I am the same person plus experience. My views on politics, theology, education, parenting, and physical fitness have all changed but the core of who I am and what I value is the same now as it was back in the 4th grade when I took down a bigger kid for picking on a child from the special ed class.

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Eh. I think the whole thread is overthink. If this were my child, I'd say some form of:

"Dear child. I have developed a parenting philosophy based on knowledge, experience, research, and responsive to your personality and our life context. I respect you equally as a human being. But I don't grant you equal status in terms of how life plays out in this home. There is a hierarchy. I am the boss. You don't have to agree, or like it. I do make my commands limited and reasonable, but I won't often defend them to you. I believe that my responsibility is to assist you in your journey towards maturity and adulthood. As you mature, you'll both naturally and deliberately be given roles and responsibilities according to your development. These are not necessary "negotiable" but I do seek and value your input and your input will inform those decisions. This is the family you are in. Should you decide on a horizontal structure when/if you have your own family, that's chill."

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There's a huge difference between kids who are "doing as they're told" and kids who automatically do the right thing because the behavior has been modeled to them for so long that it's simply "the right thing to do." 

 

However, kids who are only doing what they are doing because they are being forced to can also blossom into young adults who do the right thing because it's the right thing to do. My kid is proof. My dd was adopted at 11 from an orphanage. She had severe attachment issues and was an extremely unpleasant, angry child. Basically, our motto to her was "fake it till you make it" because just modeling behavior and treating her kindly didn't do anything to shape her behavior. We forced her, through role-plays and constantly making her restate rude demands as more polite requests and refusing to give her what she wanted until she demonstrated manners and didn't walk all over us, kick us when we were down, and then spit on our poor mangled bodies for good measure, to behave like a reasonably pleasant human being. Somewhere along the end of junior/beginning of senior year, it began to click with her, and she morphed into a genuinely nice person.

 

In fact, this summer she is living an hour away and working at a zoo. She just came home for the weekend and was a delight the entire time she was here.

 

Different things work for different kids and families. I nearly killed myself trying to be one type of parent to that child, and it was intensive counseling that convinced me that I had to do some things differently or our family would implode.

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I'll be honest and say I'm mildly disturbed that people think adults and children are the same. I am very much nothing at all like myself at 13. Different brain. Different heart. Different opinions and thoughts and styles and more. Sure I can remember that girl and identify with her some having btdt, but no. She isn't me and I am no longer her. Thank God.

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I'll be honest and say I'm mildly disturbed that people think adults and children are the same. I am very much nothing at all like myself at 13. Different brain. Different heart. Different opinions and thoughts and styles and more. Sure I can remember that girl and identify we her some having btdt, but no. She isn't me and I am no longer her. Thank God.

 

I don't think all adults and children are the same. I was a weird kid who thought too much, but I had a mom who treated my sister and I like people and talked through things a lot. I was intuitive so I saw into the thought process of adults more with her guidance. I think my thought process at 12 was more developed than some, I know I was more serious than most of my peers. I don't know, I don't find it disturbing to think part of my true self was present at that age. 

 

I've obviously grown as a person, but I think a lot of that has to do with experience, not with the age I was when I had that experience. 

 

For me, it's made me a better parent because I've been able to relate to ds better and not dismiss his thoughts because he's x years old. 

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 For me, it's made me a better parent because I've been able to relate to ds better and not dismiss his thoughts because he's x years old.

 

I don't think it is dismissive to decide not everything a kid thinks or feels is worthy of being focused upon. Fact is, sometimes it just isn't. It's petty or foolish or whatever, and while I can offer mild understanding that they can't help that due to not being done developing, I do not have any desire to cater to it. None at all. I call the spade a spade, point them in the right direction and carry on. Heck, I think too many adults dwell on stuff until it's grown into a problem that never was too.

 

 

Me too. I am basically the same person, with the same personality, the same political leanings, the same attitude towards society. Along the way, I learned some things and had some experiences that gave me more faith in humankind, while other experiences took some of that faith away again. There are many things I would handle differently now. I did some things that make me cringe now, as well as some things that I'd no longer have the patience to do. It all balances itself out. I am the same person, just with more experience.

I was a VERY mature, bookish, hard working person by age 12. I'm almost nothing like I was then. Not politically, socially, religiously. Heck. I even go by a different name, and one I NEVER would have stomached being called back then either.

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I was a VERY mature, bookish, hard working person by age 12. I'm almost nothing like I was then. Not politically, socially, religiously. Heck. I even go by a different name, and one I NEVER would have stomached being called back then either.

 

And? People are different. I am one of those who feels my sense of self to be extremely consistent since early childhood. I can't understand when others speak of being a totally different person because that's not my experience. I also can't understand when people with no trauma say they remember very little of their childhood. It does not mean that I am a childlike adult or that I was an adult-like child. My voice is the same. I can review my memories and still relate to and understand my thoughts and feelings as a child. It doesn't mean that I would have the same thoughts and feeling in the same situation now because I have learned new things and I have gained more control over my emotions.

 

My younger self would have cried over things I no longer cry about. But I still feel like her. She is me. 

 

Maybe it's really not so different as you think or feel but we have chosen to name our experiences differently. 

 

I try to treat my children respectfully and gently. I don't always succeed. Respecting their feelings and point of view does not mean that I give up my authority and that we are equals. It doesn't mean that I consent to listen to whatever they want to say endlessly when I have no interest- but I don't do that with adults who drone on about their favorite topic either. Treating them gently doesn't mean they aren't disciplined or that they are allowed to do what they want at all times. 

 

I like to think most of us on the board are not that far apart in our parenting ideals, but rather we use different words and terms to describe what we want and what is going on. The person who strives to be gentle will also discipline. The person who strives for discipline will also be gentle.

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I try to treat my children respectfully and gently. I don't always succeed. Respecting their feelings and point of view does not mean that I give up my authority and that we are equals. It doesn't mean that I consent to listen to whatever they want to say endlessly when I have no interest- but I don't do that with adults who drone on about their favorite topic either. Treating them gently doesn't mean they aren't disciplined or that they are allowed to do what they want at all times. 

 

I like to think most of us on the board are not that far apart in our parenting ideals, but rather we use different words and terms to describe what we want and what is going on. The person who strives to be gentle will also discipline. The person who strives for discipline will also be gentle.

 

:iagree:

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I'm not saying that our house is a democracy, but reading through the posts, I noticed how many people basically said, "We pay the bills, so we get to make (and break) the rules," except that many of us here don't have an income. I suspect that while many of you reference "paying the bills" gives you the right to demand respectful obedience of your kids, some of you really set the rules because you have more wisdom and responsibility for them than your kids, not because of the money. Otherwise, if any of us ever have financial trouble that requires us to move back in with our parents, what's to keep them from saying they are paying the bills, so they get to set the rules?

Well actually yes.  Their house, their rules.  Same if I moved in with my sister, another relative or a neighbor down their street.  If I am living with them and not paying rent like a roommate then yes they make the rules.  And if my parents moved in with me they would be expected to follow my rules. Simple as that. 

 

My kids do not have equal footing with me.  They don't even have equal footing with each other in the sense that the teens have more privileges than the 10 year old who has more than the 6 year old but they also have more responsibilities as they earn those privileges.  I rule this roost.  I am boss the kids are not, period.  I am open to listening to what they have to say if they speak politely.  But it is what it is.  The meals are what they are, I don't run a restaurant. Bedtime is what it is because they all need a good sleep and I need a time that is off the clock.  Chores will be done whether you want to or not.  In return they get extra currics that I pay for and run them back and forth to whether I want to or not.  Funds provided for this and that. They don't have a say in whether or not the get immunized, have an eye exam, or see a dr.  They have no say in whether or not they get an education though I have been open to topics of study with them.  Ultimately I am in charge of their health, wellbeing, education etc and will remain so until they are out in the world supporting themselves.  At that point they can decide if they want to live like a slob with stained teeth, ice cream for breakfast etc.  Until then they will follow the rules of this house even if they don't wanna.

 

As for them saying no when asked to do something, I generally rephrase and say "I was only asking to be polite, what I actually meant was do it now" and they usually do.  Because along with being ultimate boss of my home I am ultimate boss of my car and I am just as free to say no when they ask for a ride somewhere.  And living in a town in the middle of nowhere you need to drive to get anywhere, so without that ride they are stranded at home.  Not something they want.

 

 

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And? People are different. I am one of those who feels my sense of self to be extremely consistent since early childhood. I can't understand when others speak of being a totally different person because that's not my experience. I also can't understand when people with no trauma say they remember very little of their childhood. It does not mean that I am a childlike adult or that I was an adult-like child. My voice is the same. I can review my memories and still relate to and understand my thoughts and feelings as a child. It doesn't mean that I would have the same thoughts and feeling in the same situation now because I have learned new things and I have gained more control over my emotions.

 

 

Maybe it's really not so different as you think or feel but we have chosen to name our experiences differently.

 

I agree. I find the whole idea that "I have a different brain" very odd. Of course I have the same brain. I never had a brain transplant or some such thing. Maturation is not replacement.
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REALLY???  I think VERY differently about some things than when I was a child.  To be honest, I don't even remember a lot of it.  For example, I ran away A TON in elementary school until in 4th grade my mother had a talk with me.  I don't remember anything about the conversation at all.  However, after that we were best friends.    I also thought my parents were perfect growing up.  It didn't dawn on my that some things were not right until I left home.

Why were you running away so much?  If you thought your parents were perfect, what was the trigger for running away?  Not being snarky.  Just really curious.  To be honest, I never thought about running away.  Well, I thought about running away with my best friend, but that was to take care of and protect her because some members of her family were abusive.  But I didn't have a desire to leave my own family, even though I knew they weren't perfect.  Home was a pretty good place to be most of the time.

 

FWIW, I am definitely different than I was as a child, but I do deeply appreciate that my mother treated my like I had a right to think and feel, even if I still needed to respect the rules of the household and do my fair share.

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I don't think it is dismissive to decide not everything a kid thinks or feels is worthy of being focused upon. Fact is, sometimes it just isn't. It's petty or foolish or whatever, and while I can offer mild understanding that they can't help that due to not being done developing, I do not have any desire to cater to it. None at all. I call the spade a spade, point them in the right direction and carry on. Heck, I think too many adults dwell on stuff until it's grown into a problem that never was too.

 

 

I was a VERY mature, bookish, hard working person by age 12. I'm almost nothing like I was then. Not politically, socially, religiously. Heck. I even go by a different name, and one I NEVER would have stomached being called back then either.

 

I guess I'm thinking of the real issues or positive things, not the whine because he doesn't want to take out the trash. I wouldn't yell, take out the trash because I said so, and I wouldn't say, well let's sit down and discuss why you feel that way. It would go more like, that's you're job, trash picks up tomorrow and I need it all out tonight, thank you. Then I'd go back to whatever. 

 

But as he said when he was younger, he'd like to own an El Camino (I have no clue why - they're weird cars). I didn't dismiss it as oh you're too young to realize to know what you want. Instead we looked up El Caminos online and got an idea of what a decent used one would cost. It took 5 minutes, his opinion was validated, and he's brought up the interest a few more times. Will he ever own an El Camino? I have no clue, that's on him. But at least he'll remember that I didn't summarily dismiss him. 

 

Ds is an easy kid, though, I'll admit that. I can't think of a handful of times I would call his reaction to be over the top and falling into it would be what I consider "being catered to." 

 

 

 

I agree. I find the whole idea that "I have a different brain" very odd. Of course I have the same brain. I never had a brain transplant or some such thing. Maturation is not replacement.

 

Unless you're a Borg, then maturation is completely different. thumb_smiley-character0081.gif

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Why were you running away so much?  If you thought your parents were perfect, what was the trigger for running away?  

 

My parents were great. I always wanted to run away because I was infatuated with the Natty Gann, My Side of the Mountain, kid-on-your-own kind of adventure. I imagined myself facing down all kinds of obstacles and coming up victorious.

 

I didn't actually run away, but I moved out when I was 17 for precisely the same reason: I wanted to triumph in the face of adversity.

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People actually feel the same as adults as they did as kids? The brain isn't even the same brain. Thinking capabilities are not even close to the same. I am the parent and I get the last say because I have more experience, and my brain is able to work through things (or should be able to) at a different level then theirs. 

 

I am absolutely the same person I was as a child. I was rather more emotional as a child going through puberty than I was as an adult (although I suspect that puberty and menopause are pretty similar, lol), but my thoughts and feelings about the world, and about the people in my family/school/community did not change as I got older. The people I thought were idiots and undeserving of respect when I was a kid, were in fact idiots who were underserving of my respect as an adult. The people I liked and respected as a kid, I continued to like and respect. My interests, values, goals, and overall approach to life have changed very little, and I deeply resented being dismissed as "just a kid," or being told that I had to do whatever my parents, or other adults, ordered me to do, just because they were adults.

 

IME, the belief that older people are, by definition, wiser, is often untrue. Some of the wisest and most perceptive people I've ever known have been kids, and some of the stupidest and most closed-minded have been adults — so why should the former be forced to respect and obey the latter, just because they've had a few more birthdays?

 

 

 

Perhaps if one feels the same from when they were a kid it means that they were protected enough that they never had to deal with things that were beyond their capabilities as a child. Which would mean, someone was being the adult and making decisions for the kid.

 

Well, that's definitely not true for me. I was very much NOT protected by the adults in my life.

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