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when a kid wants "equal footing"


musicianmom
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In response to the OP (this thread has become a tad convoluted) I use a sports analogy.

 

When you play baseball, you have to run when the coach says run, and stop when the coach says stop, or you get tagged out, and you don't score a run for your team. If no one listened to the coaches, and did whatever they wanted, it wouldn't be a game, it would be chaos. 

 

I am the coach of this team. Someone has to be in charge, make the rules, make the decisions. If everyone does whatever, we would never get anything done, no one's needs would be met and it would be awful.

 

I am happy to take their opinions into consideration, and often ask for input. But when I tell them the decision, or ask them to do something, I expect compliance, not negotiations.

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Again, me too. Now I'm a weird adult whose "thinking too much" isn't questioned because thinking is what adults are supposed to do. I remember teachers telling me I shouldn't care about social justice so much because kids aren't supposed to worry about that kind of thing. Nobody tells me that now, obviously. 

 

I'm still getting told that I am thinking too much about things.

 

I agree. I find the whole idea that "I have a different brain" very odd. Of course I have the same brain. I never had a brain transplant or some such thing. Maturation is not replacement.

 

The brain changes a LOT. It is basically a different brain in adulthood then it was in childhood because entire different areas develop. New neural pathways are formed, new brain cells are kept while others are discarded. There is a wild amount of change in the brain.

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They often get more slack than kids.

 

I think that's true, but I think that the reason it is true is not because people respect adults more but because we recognize that it is not our job to discipline obnoxious adults that we meet, but it is our job to discipline our children (and discipline does not equal punish, as my dd will tell you from her recently learned Latin verb of discere, to learn). In fact, I am fairly hesitant to correct the public rudeness of children who are not my own because it's not my job to discipline them, either. It is their parents' job. So I will not comment on ordinary rudeness from adults but I will comment on rudeness from my kids.

 

And, honestly, when people are rude to us, we (general we) frequently complain about them and wonder how they got to be so awful, as the multitude of threads here at TWTM about the horrible behavior of others attests to.

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Here's what I would say (and probably have said) :

 

When you are an adult, paying for the house, and supporting a family, you can leave your stuff laying around wherever you want.  Until then, you are required to pick up after yourself.  Your father - he can do whatever he wants to do and that is between him and me.

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Here's what I would say (and probably have said) :

 

When you are an adult, paying for the house, and supporting a family, you can leave your stuff laying around wherever you want.  Until then, you are required to pick up after yourself.  Your father - he can do whatever he wants to do and that is between him and me.

I find this to be rude and dismissive of the child's feelings.

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FWIW, our family home is for our entire family.   Our children have just as much right to live in our home as we adults do and we all have responsibilities for taking care of our family home.  We, as parents, have to create the rules that will help manage our home but all of us have the responsibility for taking care of it.  We all, also, reap the benefits.  My children will always be welcome in our home.  They are not borrowing our home until they turn 18.  They belong here.  We are a unit and they are very much a part of our family unit.

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FWIW, our family home is for our entire family. Our children have just as much right to live in our home as we adults do and we all have responsibilities for taking care of our family home. We, as parents, have to create the rules that will help manage our home but all of us have the responsibility for taking care of it. We all, also, reap the benefits. My children will always be welcome in our home. They are not borrowing our home until they turn 18. They belong here. We are a unit and they are very much a part of our family unit.

:iagree:

 

I don't understand the mentality that says, "We own this house. You kids just live here."

 

In my mind, a home belongs to the whole family.

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Here's what I would say (and probably have said) :

 

When you are an adult, paying for the house, and supporting a family, you can leave your stuff laying around wherever you want.  Until then, you are required to pick up after yourself.  Your father - he can do whatever he wants to do and that is between him and me.

 

 

Ok.  I disagree.  I find it to be truthful.

I disagree. Even as an adult who outright owns my own home (no mortgage) I cannot just leave what I want laying around. The house has to be maintained to a certain standard or I risk my son being removed from the home or having the county condemn the place. 

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FWIW, our family home is for our entire family.   Our children have just as much right to live in our home as we adults do and we all have responsibilities for taking care of our family home.  We, as parents, have to create the rules that will help manage our home but all of us have the responsibility for taking care of it.  We all, also, reap the benefits.  My children will always be welcome in our home.  They are not borrowing our home until they turn 18.  They belong here.  We are a unit and they are very much a part of our family unit.

 

I guess I've never seen it as the kids borrowing the home either. I see it as, in this stage of their lives, this is their home. It's as much their home as it is my home. We all work together to maintain the home because that makes living in it nicer for all of us (and more sanitary). When they are done schooling though and are adults, then they are ready to move on to the next stage of life which means they will leave their first home (the one they are in now) and move on to their own home. If they choose to marry and have children then they will share that home with them. They will no longer share my home with me though. If they have moved on and still end up wanting to come back here, this is no longer their home anymore so they would have to pay rent to be here. This would then be my home and they would be my adult children who are visiting or renting.

 

Until then though, this is their home. I am not 'lending' it to them, I am sharing it with them just like I am sharing it with my dh.

 

I don't see my parents home as my home anymore. I grew up and moved to the next stage of life (thank goodness).

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I guess I've never seen it as the kids borrowing the home either. I see it as, in this stage of their lives, this is their home. It's as much their home as it is my home. We all work together to maintain the home because that makes living in it nicer for all of us (and more sanitary). When they are done schooling though and are adults, then they are ready to move on to the next stage of life which means they will leave their first home (the one they are in now) and move on to their own home. If they choose to marry and have children then they will share that home with them. They will no longer share my home with me though. If they have moved on and still end up wanting to come back here, this is no longer their home anymore so they would have to pay rent to be here. This would then be my home and they would be my adult children who are visiting or renting.

 

Until then though, this is their home. I am not 'lending' it to them, I am sharing it with them just like I am sharing it with my dh.

 

I don't see my parents home as my home anymore. I grew up and moved to the next stage of life (thank goodness).

I get what you are saying.  I know a lot of people who feel that way.   :)  Every family has to do what they feel is right for themselves.

 

In my own family, though, we just never had that mindset.  For instance, twice as an adult circumstances put me in a position to have to move back home.  I never questioned whether my parent's home was still my home or not.  I knew it was.  And Mom and Dad never charged me rent.  It would never have occurred to them to do so.  I was and still am a part of their family.  I DID help with all chores, followed their rules, helped pay for utility bills, etc. and I did it without needing to be told.  

 

My DH has siblings that have had to move home, sometimes with spouses and children in tow.  All pitched in to help out but they all knew they were still welcome, even if things were a bit crowded at times.  There was no rent charged, just help with maintenance of the house, utility bills, and lots of other things that helped make the situation easier.  Once everyone was back on their feet they moved out again.  Whenever DH's parents need anything everyone pitches in to help them, too, with nothing expected in return.  And my family has helped DH's family and vice a versa.  We are all one family now, even if we live in separate houses with separate rules, etc.  I realize that is not the norm, though.

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I truly cannot fathom the idea of charging my kids rent to live in the family home, no matter what their age. Help with food & utilities, and pitch in with the housework? Of course. But it's not like the mortgage payments go up just because another person is living there. Charging my children to live in their own home just seems like I'd be trying to make a profit off them — why would I do that?   :confused1:  I'd rather they save their money and put it towards a home of their own, or pay off student loans, or save up for something that means a lot to them.

 

I would never want my kids to feel like "my" home was not also their home. As long as I'm alive, my home will always be their home, whenever they need it, for whatever reason.

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Oh lord - the assumptions people make, lol.  Because I said my DH can do as he pleases and that what he does is between him and me means that he is a slob and our house is a dump?  LOL.  My DH does just fine, he sometimes leaves his shoes out or a glass of water somewhere, but that's about it.  Our house is, in fact, quite clean.  However, if he chose to be a slob, and I had an issue with it - it would be between him and me - and none of our kids' business. 

It is the family's home, but the guy/women/people who pay for it all (the way I was raised, and the 'old fashioned' way) should have the right to live there without being questioned by 9 year olds.  Or 15 year olds.  Or adult children coming for a visit. 

BTW - I have a really good relationship with my sons, but we have firm boundaries and my DH and I expect a certain level of respect.  In my opinion, allowing a kid to nag an adult is disrespectful.

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I would never want my kids to feel like "my" home was not also their home. As long as I'm alive, my home will always be their home, whenever they need it, for whatever reason.

 

Different families have different styles. I expect that, barring abnormal, unforeseen circumstances for my kids, that they will grow up, move out, and build a life independent from us. I don't think that's an unusual or a pathological sentiment. My home is my kids' home as long as they are too young to support themselves. Once they are old enough to do so, I expect that they will. And I expect that they will want to. None of my kids currently professes a desire to live at home as an adult; indeed, my oldest is living an hour away and working a summer job.

 

I grew up and moved out. So did my sisters.

 

If my adult child wants to return home to live with us, we will consider it based on the circumstances. Were they, "Wow, I really hate working, life at home was so much easier," then the answer would be no. I have no desire to support an adult child who doesn't want to support him- or herself. Were it, "Wow, I have cancer and I need a place to stay while I get healthy," well of course, no questions asked and no rent. Were it, "Wow, I'm saving for a house and paying my own rent is really crimping my ability to save," then likely we would say yes but expect a small amount of rent. Dh and I have plans for our lives post-kids that don't include supporting them financially when it's not necessary that we do so.

 

And I don't feel guilty about that at all. I can't imagine ever going to my parents and saying, "Hey, I want to move back into your home and live on your money." (And I realize that, were I to live in certain other cultures, it would not be unusual for adult children to live with their parents. It's not the norm in the US, and I'm cool with that.)

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If my adult child wants to return home to live with us, we will consider it based on the circumstances. Were they, "Wow, I really hate working, life at home was so much easier," then the answer would be no. I have no desire to support an adult child who doesn't want to support him- or herself. Were it, "Wow, I have cancer and I need a place to stay while I get healthy," well of course, no questions asked and no rent. Were it, "Wow, I'm saving for a house and paying my own rent is really crimping my ability to save," then likely we would say yes but expect a small amount of rent. Dh and I have plans for our lives post-kids that don't include supporting them financially when it's not necessary that we do so.

 

And I don't feel guilty about that at all. I can't imagine ever going to my parents and saying, "Hey, I want to move back into your home and live on your money." (And I realize that, were I to live in certain other cultures, it would not be unusual for adult children to live with their parents. It's not in the US, and I'm cool with that.)

 

This is the part I'm not getting — does your mortgage have a clause that requires you to pay more if more people live there? If not, and assuming adult kids would be covering their share of food and utilities, how does allowing an adult child to stay in their family home cost you anything? How are they "living on your money" just by sleeping there? 

 

IMO, charging a child rent to live in their family home sends the message "We don't want you here, we want you to leave as soon as possible, and in the meantime, we might as well make some money off you."

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This is the part I'm not getting — does your mortgage have a clause that requires you to pay more if more people live there? If not, and assuming adult kids would be covering their share of food and utilities, how does allowing an adult child to stay in their family home cost you anything? How are they "living on your money" just by sleeping there? 

 

IMO, charging a child rent to live in their family home sends the message "We don't want you here, we want you to leave as soon as possible, and in the meantime, we might as well make some money off you."

 

To me, covering a portion of food and utilities IS rent.

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But, also, I will be honest and say that I expect that an adult would want to do what they can to be self-supporting, and I would expect that three adults living in a house all share the costs of that house equally. If you are an adult and you are living in mom and dad's house and claiming it's also your house, why wouldn't you contribute to the mortgage?

 

IOW, if three adults are living in a house, why are only two of them paying for it?

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I will not raise freeloaders period. As kids this is their home of course, but once they graduate they have 3 choices, go to post secondary, get a job and pay something in room and board as a step towards independence, or move out.  As adults if there was dire circumstances (illness, divorce, homelessness due to lack of employment(but only if they are actively doing all they can to secure work) etc they can move back rent free temporarily. But my goal is to raise self sufficient adults, not grown children.  Part of that I learned from my folks, part I did not (I am not welcome to live in my parents place even if our house burnt to the ground...but I wouldn't want to either).  My kids know even as adults my door is always open when they need an ear, a shoulder, a hot meal but I will not support them into adulthood.  If they are in postsecondary they can continue to live here a no cost to them so they can put their focus on schooling, but once they graduate will be expected to get a job and get their own place.  It has nothing to do with the mortgage, though the more people living in a home yes the costs go up, more groceries, more water and power usage, more waste etc. Primarily it has to do with succeeding as a parent to launch them into their own lives.  Adult children still living with parents just to live with parents (as in not due to temporary circumstances, illness (mental or physical), disability or caring for elderly parents etc) are a failure on the part of the parents imo.  Healthy, able bodied adults should be working and supporting themselves, not sponging off parents. They will always be welcome here...as a guest.  No one is suggesting they would never allow their children back, or that they are unwelcome, just that these won't be their homes anymore because they will have their own home to return to after a visit.

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I get what you are saying.  I know a lot of people who feel that way.   :)  Every family has to do what they feel is right for themselves.

 

In my own family, though, we just never had that mindset.  For instance, twice as an adult circumstances put me in a position to have to move back home.  I never questioned whether my parent's home was still my home or not.  I knew it was.  And Mom and Dad never charged me rent.  It would never have occurred to them to do so.  I was and still am a part of their family.  I DID help with all chores, followed their rules, helped pay for utility bills, etc. and I did it without needing to be told.  

 

My DH has siblings that have had to move home, sometimes with spouses and children in tow.  All pitched in to help out but they all knew they were still welcome, even if things were a bit crowded at times.  There was no rent charged, just help with maintenance of the house, utility bills, and lots of other things that helped make the situation easier.  Once everyone was back on their feet they moved out again.  Whenever DH's parents need anything everyone pitches in to help them, too, with nothing expected in return.  And my family has helped DH's family and vice a versa.  We are all one family now, even if we live in separate houses with separate rules, etc.  I realize that is not the norm, though.

This is my family. And we extend it to ANYONE considered family. My parents had my cousin staying with them for a few months when she needed a soft place to land. I moved back with my parents when I went to grad school. I didn't pay rent but I did do chores, filled the car up, when I had used it, bought groceries if I had the car etc. When I graduated and got three part time jobs I still didn't pay rent, I did contribute more to the food shopping because I had the car more so I drove past the grocery store. But my parents encouraged me to keep most of my pay so that I could save up and move out once I got a full time job. I've lived with friends rent free, just helping out around the house. I would let friends do the same with me if they needed a soft place to land. To me this is what a family does, you take care of each other.

 

But to each their own.

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Oh lord - the assumptions people make, lol.  Because I said my DH can do as he pleases and that what he does is between him and me means that he is a slob and our house is a dump?  LOL.  My DH does just fine, he sometimes leaves his shoes out or a glass of water somewhere, but that's about it.  Our house is, in fact, quite clean.  However, if he chose to be a slob, and I had an issue with it - it would be between him and me - and none of our kids' business. 

It is the family's home, but the guy/women/people who pay for it all (the way I was raised, and the 'old fashioned' way) should have the right to live there without being questioned by 9 year olds.  Or 15 year olds.  Or adult children coming for a visit. 

BTW - I have a really good relationship with my sons, but we have firm boundaries and my DH and I expect a certain level of respect.  In my opinion, allowing a kid to nag an adult is disrespectful.

Did anyone say they assumed your dh was a slob and that your house was a dump? :eek:

 

I hope you didn't get that impression from anything I posted!!!

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There have been extenuating circumstances in which I have lived in a friends home with my kids for a short time rent free, but it was only meant to be a VERY short time as I figured out what to do. It was a long visit more then me moving in. I would never expect to actually live in any other home as an adult without helping pay the expenses of that home, why would I do that to my parents? Not that I would ever want to live in my parents home again. If my kids are capable adults, they can stay here and act like the other adults in the home. That means sharing in the costs and chores. Now if it's in the middle of something major and they are just trying to figure stuff out, they might stay here free for a few months. That's not moving in though, it's more like an extended visit.

 

 

And I was never trying to give the impression that I thought anyones home was a dump because adults weren't picking up. That wasn't what I was trying to say.

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And I was never trying to give the impression that I thought anyones home was a dump because adults weren't picking up. That wasn't what I was trying to say.

FWIW, I didn't get that impression from your posts at all. :)

 

In fact, I didn't get that impression from anyone's posts.

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I guess since no one I know personally in my own family was "freeloading" this wasn't an issue.  In all instances unfortunate circumstances created situations where the family member found themselves in a difficult situation and parents stepped in to assist until they could get back on their feet.  I don't think anyone felt they were being taken advantage of.  If the reason they were struggling were due to consistently poor choices and a bad attitude about working, etc. then perhaps things would have been different.

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I get what you are saying. I know a lot of people who feel that way. :) Every family has to do what they feel is right for themselves.

 

In my own family, though, we just never had that mindset. For instance, twice as an adult circumstances put me in a position to have to move back home. I never questioned whether my parent's home was still my home or not. I knew it was. And Mom and Dad never charged me rent. It would never have occurred to them to do so. I was and still am a part of their family. I DID help with all chores, followed their rules, helped pay for utility bills, etc. and I did it without needing to be told.

 

My DH has siblings that have had to move home, sometimes with spouses and children in tow. All pitched in to help out but they all knew they were still welcome, even if things were a bit crowded at times. There was no rent charged, just help with maintenance of the house, utility bills, and lots of other things that helped make the situation easier. Once everyone was back on their feet they moved out again. Whenever DH's parents need anything everyone pitches in to help them, too, with nothing expected in return. And my family has helped DH's family and vice a versa. We are all one family now, even if we live in separate houses with separate rules, etc. I realize that is not the norm, though.

This is how our extended family functions as well :)

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I find this to be rude and dismissive of the child's feelings.

Meh. I don't. I thinks it's a facts of life and get over it type of brief statement. That said, I'll be honest and say I have no problems dismissing feelings. Anyone's. I see no point to dwelling on or analysis of our every petty feeling. And complaints of why dad can leave his shoes out but they can't is petty and really just not worth my time or energy. I'd likely say something similar to what you found rude, and we'd go about our day. And no, this does not mean I am a horrid ogre who doesn't allow my children to think or share emotions. Given how much they disagree with me and complain, I'm satisfied they feel comfortable expressing themselves just fine.

 

As for my house my rules and rent. I think it's just semantics to say oh it's okay to tell them to pitch in for utilities and food, but not rent. Whatever. The point is they are being required to pitch in financially. Who the heck cares how the family agrees to it.

 

I currently have two recent high school grads living with me. They are both gainfully employed and plan to attend college in the fall from home. (Nearby colleges.) We will not be charging rent, but they are both expected to pay:

-their own medical bills as best they can. (None of us have health insurance. Of course we will help as much as we can, but yes, they can buy their own eye glasses, and pay for their dental cleanings.)

-fill the vehicle up at least twice per month

-pay 1/5 of the cell phone bill - a set $50 a month (which is still an excellent deal)

-to help in whatever ways they can and feel inclined.

-and of course I have no say in it, but we have STRONGLY told them they need to set aside no less than 50% and possibly up to 80% of every paycheck in savings. (What we are asking them to contribute to the family does not impede that savings at all and this time in life where their money is completely untied to any debts or obligations is brief. So we are advising them to wisely set it aside to have a good start when they do leave home.)

 

I think setting clear expectations and understandings avoids hard feelings and frustration later. Dh and I and the young adults can now budget easier bc we know exactly where the money is going to be spent. The point is not to make our kids feel beholden to us. The point is to simply clearly state financial expectations. I could make it easier and just say, never mind all that. Just pay $100 a month in rent. And at some point we might do that if we think it is easier. But for now, we are focusing on getting them thinking about how to budget their funds without it being easily laid out in one lump payment to someone.

 

We commonly say things like "our house, our rules." However, we don't care if our kids ever move out. Stay. Bring the wife and kids. We don't care. Nice people always welcome of any age or circumstance. Freeloading/jerks not welcome at any age. Like Tara, I couldn't wait to get out and adventure through life and I have kids who are like that too. Actually most of mine are like that. For some they can't wait to move out. For others, whether they live at home or not is just a minor detail that doesn't matter to it.

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I've been thinking about "freeloaders" and I couldn't put my figure on why it bothered me. I mean I don't want to live one of the horror stories you hear, like 40 yo still at home and mom waiting on them hand and foot while they play WoW all day. I don't think that anyone does. I did however still live at home when I got married, I was going to college at the time. I didn't have any bills. I paid for my insurance and any spending money for clothes or snacks or such. My dh was at home as well, he had a full-time job and had been at that job for 5 years at that point. His parents didn't make him pay any bills either, although he did pay for his car, insurance and whatever he wanted. He had started collecting a small amount of household items for when he did move out. Neither of us we're forced, there was no law laid down but we wanted to do so as of course we wanted to grow up.

 

So, I felt this disconnect when reading these various views and it finally occurred to me why. My kids aren't freeloaders now and they help out here however they can that is age appropriate. Why all of a sudden when they graduate school would they suddenly change? My expectations aren't changing and I don't see them doing so either. I don't know I guess that would sound optimistic but it seems realistic to not expect some huge change. I've also come to realize that a lot of this is cultural as well, in plenty of places older adults live at home or together and it works just fine it is just we have this warped sense of independence here which is often not for the good of all involved. So, I think in the end we will do as our parents did and we will continue to raise them to help and contribute around the house. We talk about money, which is one thing I think that was missing from our growing up. Our parents didn't bring up such things so we just got vague ideas, like make sure you buy cheaply to save money (me) and buy nicer things and take care of them so they last (dh). However, at our house our discussions are much more detailed and specific, even at our kids young ages. They will be welcome to stay here and hopefully having that option will help set them up to start out on a better footing, as it did for me and dh.

 

(in the end I would say that I feel we are doing our best to set them up to lead a sucessful life and I have confidence that they will do fine, in the end however they will make their own choices and that is ok. I prefer to keep an optimistic and positive view of what they are doing and will do. Although there are no guarantees I think often that people rise to the expectations we set. )

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I've been thinking about "freeloaders" and I couldn't put my figure on why it bothered me. I mean I don't want to live one of the horror stories you hear, like 40 yo still at home and mom waiting on them hand and foot while they play WoW all day. I don't think that anyone does. I did however still live at home when I got married, I was going to college at the time. I didn't have any bills. I paid for my insurance and any spending money for clothes or snacks or such. My dh was at home as well, he had a full-time job and had been at that job for 5 years at that point. His parents didn't make him pay any bills either, although he did pay for his car, insurance and whatever he wanted. He had started collecting a small amount of household items for when he did move out. Neither of us we're forced, there was no law laid down but we wanted to do so as of course we wanted to grow up.

 

So, I felt this disconnect when reading these various views and it finally occurred to me why. My kids aren't freeloaders now and they help out here however they can that is age appropriate. Why all of a sudden when they graduate school would they suddenly change? My expectations aren't changing and I don't see them doing so either. I don't know I guess that would sound optimistic but it seems realistic to not expect some huge change. I've also come to realize that a lot of this is cultural as well, in plenty of places older adults live at home or together and it works just fine it is just we have this warped sense of independence here which is often not for the good of all involved. So, I think in the end we will do as our parents did and we will continue to raise them to help and contribute around the house. We talk about money, which is one thing I think that was missing from our growing up. Our parents didn't bring up such things so we just got vague ideas, like make sure you buy cheaply to save money (me) and buy nicer things and take care of them so they last (dh). However, at our house our discussions are much more detailed and specific, even at our kids young ages. They will be welcome to stay here and hopefully having that option will help set them up to start out on a better footing, as it did for me and dh.

 

(in the end I would say that I feel we are doing our best to set them up to lead a sucessful life and I have confidence that they will do fine, in the end however they will make their own choices and that is ok. I prefer to keep an optimistic and positive view of what they are doing and will do. Although there are no guarantees I think often that people rise to the expectations we set. )

 

FWIW, in thinking about this, I remember DH's parents talking about how, when they retired, they intended to move out to MIL's parent's ranch to help take care of it and keep her parents company, ease the load, etc.  Her parents were planning for that day and had actually built an extra room to accommodate them (tiny little ranch house).  FIL was gainfully employed, they had a home that was completely paid for, etc.  They were not moving out there to "freeload" but to be with family and to help out.  FIL was very close with MIL's parents (his had died many years ago).  Circumstances changed and that didn't happen but MIL's parents were not planning on charging them rent.  They were looking forward to them coming out to stay.  But things did change, and MIL's dad died.  Her mother ended up needing extensive medical care so MIL's mom moved in with her and DH's dad since they had better access to medical facilities.  

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This thread caught my attention because of an incident that happened this weekend with a friend's 18 year old daughter.  The daughter has always felt that adults are her peers and that she is in a position to judge them as her equal.  Her parents have encouraged this and while somewhat taken aback with the child is quite disrespectful, think it's OK for her to question teachers and any other adult that comes along.

 

So this weekend, I was marshalling at a show jumping competition.  It was my job to ensure that riders entered the ring at a specific time to keep the rings moving quickly.  This kid was NEVER ready.  She ignored the judge when he rang the bell for her to enter.  She ignored me and the other marshal when asked to enter the ring.  The judge rang the bell a second time and she just kept on swanning around the warm up.  She wasn't ready.  Now every other rider managed to be ready or if they had mismanaged their time, went in when the bell rang regardless.  It's called being respectful of the judge and his time. It's being respectful of the other riders.  The kid who thought the judge was her peer/equal has no respect for his time and certainly no respect for the adults who were there volunteering their own time.  She had several rails down and proceeded to blame all of us for rushing her.  The mother agreed she had been rushed and should have been allowed to go in when she felt she was ready.  

 

The attitude did not go un-noticed by a number of adults who weren't impressed.

 

The rule in our house is that you do not have to agree with the adults around you, but you must show them respect.  Life experience does count.  

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To me a freeloader is not about money. It's about an attitude of disrespect, lack of accountability, and inconsiderateness. This could be the case even if they were paying rent. I know of some who act as though bc they contribute financially to the household, they think that entitles them to be served or exempted from serving their family. No. Just like even tho my dh brings home a paycheck does not exempt him from diaper changes. But I know there are marriages out there where that certainly seems to be the case. (Tho I can't help but notice that if the wife gets a job, that doesn't seem to change things. :/ )

 

In our house a freeloader is not about who has a job or who pays rent.

 

A freeloader is someone who refuses to take on some of the load of the household in some form or another bc for whatever reason they feel they shouldn't have to do so.

 

This is contrary to what we have taught our kids. That family takes care of family. There is no buy out option to this philosophy in our household.

 

Charging them as financially contributing adults is just a way to make sure we can all budget. It's difficult to budget based on "do whatever you want to help out", which is certainly nice and happens too.

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This thread caught my attention because of an incident that happened this weekend with a friend's 18 year old daughter.  The daughter has always felt that adults are her peers and that she is in a position to judge them as her equal.  Her parents have encouraged this and while somewhat taken aback with the child is quite disrespectful, think it's OK for her to question teachers and any other adult that comes along.

 

So this weekend, I was marshalling at a show jumping competition.  It was my job to ensure that riders entered the ring at a specific time to keep the rings moving quickly.  This kid was NEVER ready.  She ignored the judge when he rang the bell for her to enter.  She ignored me and the other marshal when asked to enter the ring.  The judge rang the bell a second time and she just kept on swanning around the warm up.  She wasn't ready.  Now every other rider managed to be ready or if they had mismanaged their time, went in when the bell rang regardless.  It's called being respectful of the judge and his time. It's being respectful of the other riders.  The kid who thought the judge was her peer/equal has no respect for his time and certainly no respect for the adults who were there volunteering their own time.  She had several rails down and proceeded to blame all of us for rushing her.  The mother agreed she had been rushed and should have been allowed to go in when she felt she was ready.  

 

The attitude did not go un-noticed by a number of adults who weren't impressed.

 

The rule in our house is that you do not have to agree with the adults around you, but you must show them respect.  Life experience does count.  

 

You bring up an interesting situation.  I agree that they did a disservice to this child by not teaching her to be polite and considerate of others.  She was being quite self-centered, IMHO, and that attitude and viewpoint may very well come back to haunt her in the work force environment..  I guarantee my parents very much taught me to be mindful of others and to be polite and I definitely feel that is a priority with my own kids.  We don't live in a vacuum.  The world is full of people and you have to be able to effectively interact with those around you.

 

I don't think kids should be taught to blindly obey without question until they turn 18, either, though.  I just don't feel that either view is that healthy, at least for my family.  I know others function differently.  Both are extremes, to me, though.  

 

I want my kids to question the world around them, to think about how things are, and if they have concerns and want to understand why rules are in place, I want them to voice those concerns (politely) so we can discuss those rules.  I want to help them gain a better understanding of our family dynamic and the world at large.  Doesn't mean they can just refuse to do whatever or that endless debate is allowed, either.  DH and I DO have more experience and we are the ones who make the rules.  But the kids are old enough now that they can think through what is happening and I think developmentally it is appropriate for them to want to delve deeper into why we do what we do.  I certainly do not want them to be rude, impertinent, impolite and not take into consideration those around them, but I encourage them to be critical thinkers.

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This thread caught my attention because of an incident that happened this weekend with a friend's 18 year old daughter.  The daughter has always felt that adults are her peers and that she is in a position to judge them as her equal.  Her parents have encouraged this and while somewhat taken aback with the child is quite disrespectful, think it's OK for her to question teachers and any other adult that comes along.

 

So this weekend, I was marshalling at a show jumping competition.  It was my job to ensure that riders entered the ring at a specific time to keep the rings moving quickly.  This kid was NEVER ready.  She ignored the judge when he rang the bell for her to enter.  She ignored me and the other marshal when asked to enter the ring.  The judge rang the bell a second time and she just kept on swanning around the warm up.  She wasn't ready.  Now every other rider managed to be ready or if they had mismanaged their time, went in when the bell rang regardless.  It's called being respectful of the judge and his time. It's being respectful of the other riders.  The kid who thought the judge was her peer/equal has no respect for his time and certainly no respect for the adults who were there volunteering their own time.  She had several rails down and proceeded to blame all of us for rushing her.  The mother agreed she had been rushed and should have been allowed to go in when she felt she was ready.  

 

People need to understand that if they choose not to follow the rules, then they will have to accept the consequences. If this girl didn't respond to the bell and enter the ring within the required time limit, the consequence should have been disqualification. Why wasn't she disqualified? And if she did manage to make it into the ring within the time limit, then her poor score is the consequence for her lack of preparation. 

 

Insisting that children be polite and show consideration for others, however, is not the same thing as demanding "respect for elders," whether they deserve it or not. There are just as many situations where the older person is behaving like a jerk, and disrespecting the younger person. People earn the respect of others by being kind, decent, honest people, not by having more birthdays. I will always have far more respect for a kind, thoughtful 10 year old than a self-centered, obnoxious 40 year old — I've felt that way since I was a young child myself, and I still feel that way.

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I don't see how not being prepared and not following the rules is a consequence of being treated as an adult. Rather the opposite, in fact! 

 

Wouldn't not being ready to enter when the bell rings affect her score? I know nothing about show jumping, but every type of competition I'm familiar with has penalties for that type of stuff, which would be a very natural consequence. 

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jpanik- I have to say in that situation I think you and the other judges were at fault, she should have been disqualified if she didn't follow the rules. I don't know why she was protected from the natural consequence of her actions, certainly that is a fault of her mother but also for the other adults which she interacts, nobody is doing her any favors.

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Totally agree.  I would have disqualified her, no questions asked. But I was not the judge or the organiser.  Earlier in the day, when she was first on and wasn't ready, I did not let her into the warm up until there was a break.  She wasn't happy, but I don't much care.

 

I did speak with the mother about both instances.  She made all sorts of excuses for the kid.  What did get her attention was when I mentioned that the other adults present were very unimpressed with her daughter.  

 

I'm not sure we can lay the blame on every other adult she interacts with. I just think that people don't want to have the argument.  Who wants to argue with someone else's rude kid who won't back down?  This was a Pony Club event, so every adult there was a volunteer and "just a parent." 

 

She may not have been disqualified, but perhaps the natural consequences are the loss of friendship and respect from the other parents and kids.  Which is probably worse than loosing a competition.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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This is the part I'm not getting — does your mortgage have a clause that requires you to pay more if more people live there? If not, and assuming adult kids would be covering their share of food and utilities, how does allowing an adult child to stay in their family home cost you anything? How are they "living on your money" just by sleeping there? 

 

IMO, charging a child rent to live in their family home sends the message "We don't want you here, we want you to leave as soon as possible, and in the meantime, we might as well make some money off you."

 

I think you make a leap in your perception of the perspective and the quote in your second paragraph.

But to answer your question, I am an adult in America. Having been born and raised here without significant and intimate influence of another culture on this issue, I value self determination, Independence and autonomy. I believe it is my job to raise self-sufficient children into adulthood and they then move on to their own lives, in their own space.

 

Functionally, my family has been interdependent as life has played out with accidents, illness, transitions, etc.

 

In terms of parenting, I have enjoyed a great deal of the season of life raising minor children. But I make no apologies for looking forward to the physical, mental, and emotional space that comes when they move out - and I build a life around THAT season of life.

 

In utilitarian terms, my life has played out in a way that there is no retirement, no security, no current executable plan. If, as an adult, you want to live with me there will be financial responsibilities attached to that. Just like every other adult I know and respect - you have responsibilities financially related to where you live.

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