A succinct reason for Latin?

[mamabear2three]

I know that I'm sleep deprived but I feel like I'm muddling through and not being able to clarify a succinct reason for studying Latin (and Greek?)

 

After reading through the comments on defining a classical education, this is really bugging me - so why should you have your kids study Latin? And what is the benefit of doing so younger (like with Song School Latin)? Or is there no benefit?

 

Also which would be a bigger priority - Latin or a foreign language? (I suppose that would depend on the goals for both... but without a classical education myself, I am in new territory here!)

 

 

[EKS]

The reason we did Latin is that it was the easiest to teach/learn at home--no conversational component.

[8filltheheart]

This is a thread that had a conversation with Ester Maria and one that I thoroughly enjoyed.  http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/269000-anyone-want-to-discuss-lowes-article-in-the-newest-classical-teacher/

 

I will say, yrs post that thread, that I can definitely see a difference between my oldest group of children and my "2nd" older group of children.   The first 3 did not study Latin.   The next 3 have.   The older 2 of the second group (the 3rd hasn't been studying it long enough for me to say) definitely are stronger critical thinkers than my oldest 3.   I am definitely a Latin convert.  ;) 

[mamabear2three]

so interesting! (And thanks for the link to the other conversation, I tend to fight with the search function)

[Alice]

It's fun. 

 

 

 

 

You asked for succinct, right? :) In all seriousness both my kids who are studying Latin like it. It's one of my oldest son's favorite subjects. We started in 2nd grade for both. I'm of the mindset that just the act of learning is worth it for it's own sake. It doesn't have to lead to other specific benefits. But what I've seen with Latin so far is 1) it's tough and they learn to struggle a little with something a little non-intuituve 2) it benefits their vocabulary 3) it reinforces what they are learning in English grammar. 

 

I would have considered a modern foreign language more strongly but I can't teach it as easily as I'm not fluent. If we were living in another country or one of us was fluent I might choose a modern language first. I'd love to have them also learn a modern foreign language and as they get older I hope to do that. 

[amyk]

Here's a blog post my husband wrote about why to study Latin

http://llpsi.blogspot.com/2012/10/german-mother-latin-father.html

[Slache]

Grammar & Vocabulary.

 

I put greater importance on modern foreign language, but plan to teach Latin & Greek first because I think it well make a 5th language easier, and I believe Greek should be started as young as possible. We'll see how my plans actually play out in reality though. It seems most people who share my sentiments decide not to follow through with it when reality hits and it's more complicated in practice than theory.

[Hunter]

My preferred default language arts plan, for non-LD students, is intensive phonics and cursive-first, followed by grammar based Latin.

 

I have yet to figure out how to teach english grammar before Latin. I stink at it. I think of Latin as ENGLISH.

 

I wasted a ton of time and money trying to make Latin "fun" and do it "better". If MOM is capable of teaching Henle, then I recommend waiting till the child is finished with phonics and is writing in cursive, and then starting Henle, with limited supplementing. Basically just a bit more reading can be added, if you can get cheap old textbooks like Ecce Romani for a few pennies.

 

RUN, run from TPR, and immersion, and all that stuff, unless YOU like it, and can afford it. Don't even get distracted by too much extra reading. Just do Henle. Henle is ENGLISH.

 

Yes, some families have Latin as a foreign language goals, so their advice will be different. I'd rather introduce French or Spanish instead, though.

[sunnyday]

I am afraid I don't have a good succinct reason. I want my kids to understand "fifty-cent" classical and erudite words from the etymology up. I want them to have the mental challenge of translating between their native language and another. I want them to have enough exposure that Romance languages are somewhat transparent to them. I want them to be able to read a few important works in their original form.

 

I'm pretty sure I'll do Latin first, not sure about when/how to add modern language (Spanish or Japanese) and Greek.

[Haiku]

so why should you have your kids study Latin? And what is the benefit of doing so younger (like with Song School Latin)? Or is there no benefit?

 

Also which would be a bigger priority - Latin or a foreign language? 

 

I'm having my dd study Latin because I believe it will increase her facility with language and expand her vocabulary, which will allow her to learn more because she will understand more. She's also learning Latin because it trains the mind to think logically. Those are the two most succinct reasons I can give.

 

I don't believe there is much benefit to early Latin study. If you don't understand the grammar, you're not doing anything more than memorizing vocabulary. To me, it's a matter of effort versus payoff. I find the payoff minimal so I am not going to put in the effort. Vocabulary can easily be memorized later while you are also studying the grammar. It's more bang for the proverbial buck.

 

The bigger priority for me is Latin. It does all the things for a student that I've already mentioned plus makes other Romance languages or inflected languages easier to learn.

 

My ds won't be studying Latin, at least not as far as I can see. He has some language-based learning deficits, and I think Latin would simply be an exercise in frustration. I will be starting a roots program with him next year.

[Corraleno]

I think there are many ways to accomplish the same things that studying Latin does, but that Latin is a particularly effective and efficient way of accomplishing them: you get grammar, vocabulary, logic, cultural history, and foreign language in one package.

 

Of course you can get some of the same benefit by studying English grammar and word roots, but Latin provides much greater depth and context. You can get some of the same benefit from studying any other foreign language, but Latin gives you the bonus of English word roots, lots of legal and scientific terminology, and the ability to easily pick up any of the modern Latin-derived languages once you know Latin. As for training the mind: math, music, formal logic, programming, chess, even some strategy games, can help people learn to think logically and analytically, but Latin is especially effective in training the mind to think logically about language. As an inflected language, it's grammar is visible in a way that English grammar is not; studying Latin lets students see the "bones" of language in a way that can be applied to any other language.

 

I would not force a kid who truly hated Latin to study it, but I'm very glad my kids enjoy it, because I think it provides a LOT of "bang for your buck," and frees up time (that might otherwise be spent slogging through grammar, logic, and word root workbooks) for lots of interest-led subjects.

[KrissiK]

Succinctly (regarding Latin)

1) as someone said before, it is fun!

2) builds vocabulary

3) builds critics thinking skills

 

My kids are also learning a little Greek. We're doing Greek Codecrackers by CAP. They love it. It's a puzzle to them. I wasn't going to do the next step in Greek next year, but they are insisting on it. We won't hit it hard like we're hitting Latin, but it is fun!

 

And the thing with Classical education, you can't let yourself or your kid have the attitude of, " why am I learning this? How am I going to use....algebra, Latin, diagramming sentences .... In my every day life?" Like I told my son yesterday, no, you won't diagram sentences in your every day life, but when you diagram a sentence you look at a mess of words, a problem, you strip it down to the main parts, then reassemble it in an organized and logical fashion. In real life, you'll have lots of problems where you need to know how to strip it down to the bare bones and then make logical sense of it. It's all about training the mind!

[FO4UR]

It's the most efficient way to know English.

 

For those who excel in Latin, there is quality literature to be read in the original language.

 

It's the gateway language to many other languages.  

 

 

 

 

Vocab is great for younger children.  They love learning Latin words and finding English derivatives.  Heavy grammar can wait until middle school.

[EndOfOrdinary]

To know where you came from. Latin/Greek is the basis for much of our society. Whether that is language, law, social custom, academics, or even just an emphasis on wonder.

[mamabear2three]

It is making more sense now, clarity coming out of the confusion. Seems like perhaps Latin might be the next logical step after phonics... and that I don't need to be afraid of it considering so many of you say that it's fun and that your kids enjoy it! 

 

 

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

To give DD a leg up in identifying new words she encounters. That's it. We have grammar very well covered elsewhere.

 

Now, the wordier rationale includes looking at language as dynamic playdoh, and building skills to tinker, fiddle, and tear it apart. Unless they're in AP Lang, my SAT kids can't do that.

[petepie2]

It's exercise for the brain.

 

I like this article at Memoria Press:

http://www.memoriapress.com/articles/apology-latin-and-math

 

 

 

 

[8filltheheart]

It is making more sense now, clarity coming out of the confusion. Seems like perhaps Latin might be the next logical step after phonics... and that I don't need to be afraid of it considering so many of you say that it's fun and that your kids enjoy it!

I personally don't think it is worth the time until a student is old enough to understand grammar. What age that is depends on the child. My 9th grader understood complex grammar concepts in 3rd grade. My current 2nd grader has only master subjects, nouns, verbs, adjs, and advs. With Latin, case is everything.

The short answer is "because everyone else has (or used to)".  

 

This may seem initially unsatisfying, but substantially all of the canonical authors had studied Latin and Greco Roman culture, and were profoundly influenced by it. Dante, Shakespeare, even Karl Marx and Adam Smith were awash with classical references.  The founding fathers of the United States all read Latin, and this left its mark on them, and our founding documents.  Why is the 2nd amendment so tricky for us to read today?  Because there's something like a Latin ablative absolute clause in the middle of it, throwing off those who don't understand Latin grammar.  The authors of the Federalist papers chose "publius" for their pseudonym, which again shows what they were thinking about.  To be lacking latin is to be deaf to big chunks of the Great Conversation.

[BentWren]

I am a pretty new homeschooler who made an account just to join in this fascinating thread! I love that there is a place where people really care about questions like this!

 

I'm with those who say it's all about understanding the heritage of Western culture, or the "Great Conversation." Grammar, vocabulary, critical thinking/brain building, fun/challenge—these are all good points, but they can also be said about other languages as well. But these points do apply especially to Latin (except maybe the "fun" part? That's subjective).

 

But the classical argument for classical education, as I understand it, is one that other languages can't claim. Latin and Greek are uniquely important (says stuff I have read, these aren't my thoughts) because understanding these languages, and reading texts in these languages, provide the keys to intimate familiarity with the concepts, concerns, values, and basic assumptions of the Romans and Greeks. This was all one culture, because the Romans deliberately followed the Greeks in many aspects of their culture. And European and American culture, Western culture generally, are still very much based on this Latin culture. To understand Latin and Greek language and classics is to understand the roots of our culture. It is to understand more deeply why we think as we do. This both helps us understand ourselves and also helps us understand all the references people make to mythology and history etc., and use they make of philosophical, legal, etc. concepts.

 

The other classical argument for classical education (again, I'm just reporting, these aren't my thoughts, I barely know either language) is a judgment about Greek and Latin culture, namely, that it's particularly worth studying. The Greco-Roman culture gave us devotion to reason, tolerance, individual liberty, tools for a theoretical understanding of God, and much more, and originated so many things, like philosophy, theology, history, drama, etc. The concepts and practices that we associate with civilization itself largely came from Greece and Latin. The ideas and the classics themselves are so beautiful and worthwhile (so they say...I sort of agree) that one is edified by a deep acquaintance with them.

 

I don't know about studying Latin when younger. I think it's OK to wait until the traditional age of starting (later elementary, I think). My 7-year-old is learning Latin from Getting Started with Latin, which isn't too hard, but I worry about whether he'll be ready for his first serious Latin text after that. (I'm looking at free public domain textbooks written for school children and having a very hard time coming to grips with what's out there and what's best.) I had a hard time with other foreign languages and had a year of Greek in college and that was pretty hard. So I really really doubt Latin and Greek are "easy" and in fact one argument I've come across recently is that they teach discipline just because they are so hard and require discipline to master. So I and my 7-year-old will play it by ear, and I'll give my 3-year-old a few years before we start conjugating "amo."  :huh:   :lol:

[Wilma]

I think y'all have done a great job discussing the importance of Latin.

 

Here's why we do Latin from first grade: they like it. It's fun. And it builds familiarity and confidence.

 

Having some vocabulary and phrases from Song School Latin can only help down the road. And having a kid whot thinks, "Latin is Fun! And I'm really good at it!" is also a definite plus. It's totally possible that Latin will get tough later (geez, even the end of GSWL is tricky!), and if my people can have good vibes going into that, I'm all for it.

[mamabear2three]

I think that a lot of conquering a difficult subject is confidence and attitude. I guess if there wasn't something easy and fun for younger students, it wouldn't be prudent to begin until the child is older, for sure. 

 

I guess with this, as with everything, everyone will have a different opinion on when to begin and how best to go about it.

[SebastianCat]

We aren't strictly "classical" in our educational style, and didn't start Latin with DS until he was in 6th grade (and asked for it).

 

But in just one year Latin has helped improve my DS's spelling, vocabulary, and understanding of English grammar.   He really enjoys it - so we will continue Latin through middle school, then transition to Spanish in high school.   I fully expect his Latin background will help him learn Spanish more easily.

[Saddlemomma]

To grasp the concept of grammar.  Memoria Press has some great articles on the correlation between learning English grammar with Latin.  I can tell you it's made a difference with my 5th grade DD.  She started Latin this year and has told me she finally "gets" grammar because of her Latin studies.

[alicai]

To be lacking latin is to be deaf to big chunks of the Great Conversation.

:iagree:    And I   :001_tt1: this. 

[Allearia]

What made me start Latin with my older son was reading Climbing Parnassus. The brain training, vocab, etc. He ended up really having a passion for it and is studying both Latin and Greek at high levels now. Before we started, I thought we would be dabbling, but I am so glad we did and it has been great!

 

That said, my second ds who is 9 just started twice a week Mandarin classes, soon going to three times a week. We will dabble a bit in Latin on the side, but he loves Mandarin and also loves doing something different than his brother. I am hoping he will also do Lukeion Latin at least in seventh or eighth grade, but I won't force it if he really doesn't want to.

 

I do wish I had started a modern language with my older sooner - right now he is going to start some German, which will help with his classical studies. Unfortunately neither has an interest in Portuguese, Spanish or French which are the languages I have a background in! I will insist we do some Spanish, hopefully starting relatively soon, and I expect my son's Latin background will make it very easy for him.

 

Eta - now that ds is able to read classical authors in the original it shows how worth it this study was! He read the first book of the Illiad in its original Greek, one of the highlights of his summer. So the Latin and Greek have merged with literature and history.

[LLMom]

This might be helpful.  Why Study Latin?

[Hunter]

I am a pretty new homeschooler who made an account just to join in this fascinating thread! I love that there is a place where people really care about questions like this!

 

...

 

I don't know about studying Latin when younger. I think it's OK to wait until the traditional age of starting (later elementary, I think). My 7-year-old is learning Latin from Getting Started with Latin, which isn't too hard, but I worry about whether he'll be ready for his first serious Latin text after that. (I'm looking at free public domain textbooks written for school children and having a very hard time coming to grips with what's out there and what's best.) I had a hard time with other foreign languages and had a year of Greek in college and that was pretty hard. So I really really doubt Latin and Greek are "easy" and in fact one argument I've come across recently is that they teach discipline just because they are so hard and require discipline to master. So I and my 7-year-old will play it by ear, and I'll give my 3-year-old a few years before we start conjugating "amo."  :huh:   :lol:

 

Welcome BentWren!  :grouphug:  :party:

 

For Latin, take a look at Henle. For Ancient Greek take a look at Machen's 1st edition; you can find used answer keys from the 1980s and 1990s for it at Amazon. Back in the 90s, with just a little high school Latin, I was able to self-educate with these and get my son to the point he could dabble in the bilingual Loeb Classics. I tried all sort if other "better" books, but just couldn't make steady progress through them.

 

Google has a nice preview of Henle. It's not pretty and it's not trendy, but it gets the job done.

http://books.google.com/books?id=FSAeb6bNqesC&printsec=frontcover&dq=henle+latin&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xJgvU_idPILr0gHgzYGADQ&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=henle%20latin&f=false

 

Still Waters in Canada is allowed to sell Machen.

http://www.puritandownloads.com/new-testament-greek-for-beginners-1923-by-j-gresham-machen/

 

There is a copy here for free.

http://www.sounddoctrine.net/Classic_Sermons/new/New%20Testament%20Greek%20193.pdf

[Momof3]

What made me start Latin with my older son was reading Climbing Parnassus. The brain training, vocab, etc. He ended up really having a passion for it and is studying both Latin and Greek at high levels now. Before we started, I thought we would be dabbling, but I am so glad we did and it has been great!

 

That said, my second ds who is 9 just started twice a week Mandarin classes, soon going to three times a week. We will dabble a bit in Latin on the side, but he loves Mandarin and also loves doing something different than his brother. I am hoping he will also do Lukeion Latin at least in seventh or eighth grade, but I won't force it if he really doesn't want to.

 

I do wish I had started a modern language with my older sooner - right now he is going to start some German, which will help with his classical studies. Unfortunately neither has an interest in Portuguese, Spanish or French which are the languages I have a background in! I will insist we do some Spanish, hopefully starting relatively soon, and I expect my son's Latin background will make it very easy for him.

 

Eta - now that ds is able to read classical authors in the original it shows how worth it this study was! He read the first book of the Illiad in its original Greek, one of the highlights of his summer. So the Latin and Greek have merged with literature and history.

Just popped over to Goodreads to look up Climbing Parnassus. I think I'll be checking my library for this one! Thanks for bringing it into the discussion. When did you start your oldest on Latin & Greek?

[Hunter]

Just popped over to Goodreads to look up Climbing Parnassus. I think I'll be checking my library for this one! Thanks for bringing it into the discussion. When did you start your oldest on Latin & Greek?

 

Read part 2 before reading part 1. So many people get bogged down in part 1, that they give up before getting to the immediately applicable parts. Part 2 is worth reading more than once, so don't worry about reading it out of order.

[mamabear2three]

This is a really interesting conversation - it makes me wonder how much more of my educational training (as an elementary school teacher in the public school system) has really brainwashed me. 

 

I feel like there is so much learning that we are allowing children to grow up without; we're settling for mundane, for "basics", instead of requiring more from children. I am really seeing what someone said (I've read so much on this over the past few days I've lost track...) that getting into Latin and philosophy and these more "classical" studies, is what will enable our children to be the leaders and to shape their world. I do want to raise my children to be leaders, not always followers, and if Greek and Latin are a means to that end, then that seems a simple addition to our homeschool.

 

I keep wondering with the increasing numbers of homeschool children, how long it will take for a homeschooler to become president...

[Hunter]

I wish I would heard this advice earlier. I've had this book for about 2 years. Part 1 is really slow and I kept getting distracted so never made much headway on it. But then I finally got to Part 2 and am zipping through it now.

 

Part 2 was my scope and sequence back in the early 2000s, with my younger son who was planning a degree in Classics. He abandoned that goal, as children are fickle and dreamers and usually move on to others things. But I have fond memories of part 2. My copy was more notes than original text, by the time I was done.

 

I always skim a book and read the table of contents to see were the meat of the book is. So often the first part of a book is a SLOOOOOW build up, to what I really want to know. Always skim ahead before abandoning a book.

[Hunter]

This is a really interesting conversation - it makes me wonder how much more of my educational training (as an elementary school teacher in the public school system) has really brainwashed me. 

 

I feel like there is so much learning that we are allowing children to grow up without; we're settling for mundane, for "basics", instead of requiring more from children. I am really seeing what someone said (I've read so much on this over the past few days I've lost track...) that getting into Latin and philosophy and these more "classical" studies, is what will enable our children to be the leaders and to shape their world. I do want to raise my children to be leaders, not always followers, and if Greek and Latin are a means to that end, then that seems a simple addition to our homeschool.

 

I keep wondering with the increasing numbers of homeschool children, how long it will take for a homeschooler to become president...

 

Latin, Greek, and Hebrew can be the straw that breaks the camel's back for some homeschools. Everything that is useful is not essential. A fine education can be had without Latin, Greek, and Hebrew. It was fairly easy for me to tackle the classical languages at home since I had some decent Latin instruction in high school, but for moms starting out with a blank slate in inflected languages, Latin can just be too much.

 

O-G Spelling/Phonics, Latin, and conceptual math are all great, but many homeschools can only tackle one or two of these methods, and some can handle none of them. If finances are at the breaking point and if you are feeling weepy during lesson planning, back off from these subjects. It's okay. Useful is not always essential.

[TGHEALTHYMOM]

The Teaching Company is having a sale now.... Latin 101 is on the list.... It looks interesting... I may have to try it for me.... I have Henle and need to break it out for my kids.  I got a headache this weekend looking at curricula!

 

 

 

 

This is a really interesting conversation - it makes me wonder how much more of my educational training (as an elementary school teacher in the public school system) has really brainwashed me. 

 

I feel like there is so much learning that we are allowing children to grow up without; we're settling for mundane, for "basics", instead of requiring more from children. I am really seeing what someone said (I've read so much on this over the past few days I've lost track...) that getting into Latin and philosophy and these more "classical" studies, is what will enable our children to be the leaders and to shape their world. I do want to raise my children to be leaders, not always followers, and if Greek and Latin are a means to that end, then that seems a simple addition to our homeschool.

 

 

While I am a big Latin proponent, I think it might be a bit of a stretch to think that it is a cure-all that will create great leaders and world-shakers.

 

 

 

I keep wondering with the increasing numbers of homeschool children, how long it will take for a homeschooler to become president...

 

 

Depending on how you count, I think most of our early Presidents would qualify.

[mamabear2three]

While I am a big Latin proponent, I think it might be a bit of a stretch to think that it is a cure-all that will create great leaders and world-shakers.

 

 

 

Depending on how you count, I think most of our early Presidents would qualify.

 

True, the early Presidents would qualify :)

 

I didn't mean that Latin would be the cure-all, just that it is a piece of the puzzle... (along with logic, math, philosophy, ect.) a puzzle that would help raise children to be great thinkers.

[Hunter]

Oooh! I forgot that I wanted to comment on the leadership aspects of pushing Latin and language arts. Back in the 90s there was such an LA focus to rear future leaders. People talked all the time about educating "princes" and what  the education of a prince was. Now a "good education" is a STEM education. Talk has sure changed in 15 years.

[Momof3]

So...those who've started Latin early... How much time do you spend on it? (daily/weekly) I'm in this wretched tug-o'-war between all of the *many* things I want us to study & learn...and reality. My kids do want *some* play time.  :tongue_smilie:  Not wanting to derail the thread here...but how do you find that balance with all of this educating?  :huh: Did Greek & Roman kids have play time? Or did they spend all of their waking time stretching their little minds?  :001_cool:

[Momof3]

So...those who've started Latin early... How much time do you spend on it? (daily/weekly) I'm in this wretched tug-o'-war between all of the *many* things I want us to study & learn...and reality. My kids do want *some* play time.  :tongue_smilie:  Not wanting to derail the thread here...but how do you find that balance with all of this educating?  :huh: Did Greek & Roman kids have play time? Or did they spend all of their waking time stretching their little minds?  :001_cool:

[Alice]

So...those who've started Latin early... How much time do you spend on it? (daily/weekly) I'm in this wretched tug-o'-war between all of the *many* things I want us to study & learn...and reality. My kids do want *some* play time.  :tongue_smilie:  Not wanting to derail the thread here...but how do you find that balance with all of this educating?  :huh: Did Greek & Roman kids have play time? Or did they spend all of their waking time stretching their little minds?  :001_cool:

 

We started in 2nd grade with both kids. I use Lively Latin which we all really love. It has a lot of history, which is my oldest son's favorite part. My second son isn't that interested in the history so I skip it. (We do history separately, I just don't add in the LL history.) 

 

I aim to have them study Latin 4 days a week, which is every day that we are doing school at home. One day we are at at co-op. The second grader does one or two pages, usually with me. Sometimes I let him do them orally and I scribe for him, sometimes he writes. I'd say it takes no more than 15 minutes a day. We use flashcards for vocabulary and chants. We review the chants 2 times a week and the vocab cards one time a week right now. When he has new words or chants we review them daily. Going through all his cards only takes about 10 minutes at the most (and that is with goofing around) since he just started this year. 

 

My older son also does 1-2 pages a day and it takes about 15-30 minutes (the pages are harder and often require more translation). He is more independent and usually works on his own and then I check it and go over any problems. For the longer translations we work on them together as i'm learning Latin along with him. I have a system where he reviews his cards/chants for 5 minutes every day. He has been doing Latin for 3 1/2 years now so he has a lot of vocabulary cards. He probably gets through them all in about a week or so. He'll do them all Latin to English and then English to Latin. 

 

At this slow pace it's took my oldest about 2 1/2 years to get through the first Big Book of Lively Latin.  We went even slower with him at first as I was less consistent and he wanted to do all the history which added a lot of time. We're at about the same pace for the second big book, he should be done with it by roughly the end of 6th grade. 

 

As far as the balance between play and work...yes, my kids play. :) A lot. For me our priorities have become Math, Latin, Language Arts and all that encompasses and Piano. The goal is to do good work in those four subjects four days a week. We can pretty easily get those things done in 4 hours a day for my oldest and more like 2-3 for my younger son. Then the rest of the day is divided between play, outside activities and other subjects like History, Science and Art. 

[Alice]

So...those who've started Latin early... How much time do you spend on it? (daily/weekly) I'm in this wretched tug-o'-war between all of the *many* things I want us to study & learn...and reality. My kids do want *some* play time.  :tongue_smilie:  Not wanting to derail the thread here...but how do you find that balance with all of this educating?  :huh: Did Greek & Roman kids have play time? Or did they spend all of their waking time stretching their little minds?  :001_cool:

 

We started in 2nd grade with both kids. I use Lively Latin which we all really love. It has a lot of history, which is my oldest son's favorite part. My second son isn't that interested in the history so I skip it. (We do history separately, I just don't add in the LL history.) 

 

I aim to have them study Latin 4 days a week, which is every day that we are doing school at home. One day we are at at co-op. The second grader does one or two pages, usually with me. Sometimes I let him do them orally and I scribe for him, sometimes he writes. I'd say it takes no more than 15 minutes a day. We use flashcards for vocabulary and chants. We review the chants 2 times a week and the vocab cards one time a week right now. When he has new words or chants we review them daily. Going through all his cards only takes about 10 minutes at the most (and that is with goofing around) since he just started this year. 

 

My older son also does 1-2 pages a day and it takes about 15-30 minutes (the pages are harder and often require more translation). He is more independent and usually works on his own and then I check it and go over any problems. For the longer translations we work on them together as i'm learning Latin along with him. I have a system where he reviews his cards/chants for 5 minutes every day. He has been doing Latin for 3 1/2 years now so he has a lot of vocabulary cards. He probably gets through them all in about a week or so. He'll do them all Latin to English and then English to Latin. 

 

At this slow pace it's took my oldest about 2 1/2 years to get through the first Big Book of Lively Latin.  We went even slower with him at first as I was less consistent and he wanted to do all the history which added a lot of time. We're at about the same pace for the second big book, he should be done with it by roughly the end of 6th grade. 

 

As far as the balance between play and work...yes, my kids play. :) A lot. For me our priorities have become Math, Latin, Language Arts and all that encompasses and Piano. The goal is to do good work in those four subjects four days a week. We can pretty easily get those things done in 4 hours a day for my oldest and more like 2-3 for my younger son. Then the rest of the day is divided between play, outside activities and other subjects like History, Science and Art. 

[Alice]

So...those who've started Latin early... How much time do you spend on it? (daily/weekly) I'm in this wretched tug-o'-war between all of the *many* things I want us to study & learn...and reality. My kids do want *some* play time.  :tongue_smilie:  Not wanting to derail the thread here...but how do you find that balance with all of this educating?  :huh: Did Greek & Roman kids have play time? Or did they spend all of their waking time stretching their little minds?  :001_cool:

 

We started in 2nd grade with both kids. I use Lively Latin which we all really love. It has a lot of history, which is my oldest son's favorite part. My second son isn't that interested in the history so I skip it. (We do history separately, I just don't add in the LL history.) 

 

I aim to have them study Latin 4 days a week, which is every day that we are doing school at home. One day we are at at co-op. The second grader does one or two pages, usually with me. Sometimes I let him do them orally and I scribe for him, sometimes he writes. I'd say it takes no more than 15 minutes a day. We use flashcards for vocabulary and chants. We review the chants 2 times a week and the vocab cards one time a week right now. When he has new words or chants we review them daily. Going through all his cards only takes about 10 minutes at the most (and that is with goofing around) since he just started this year. 

 

My older son also does 1-2 pages a day and it takes about 15-30 minutes (the pages are harder and often require more translation). He is more independent and usually works on his own and then I check it and go over any problems. For the longer translations we work on them together as i'm learning Latin along with him. I have a system where he reviews his cards/chants for 5 minutes every day. He has been doing Latin for 3 1/2 years now so he has a lot of vocabulary cards. He probably gets through them all in about a week or so. He'll do them all Latin to English and then English to Latin. 

 

At this slow pace it's took my oldest about 2 1/2 years to get through the first Big Book of Lively Latin.  We went even slower with him at first as I was less consistent and he wanted to do all the history which added a lot of time. We're at about the same pace for the second big book, he should be done with it by roughly the end of 6th grade. 

 

As far as the balance between play and work...yes, my kids play. :) A lot. For me our priorities have become Math, Latin, Language Arts and all that encompasses and Piano. The goal is to do good work in those four subjects four days a week. We can pretty easily get those things done in 4 hours a day for my oldest and more like 2-3 for my younger son. Then the rest of the day is divided between play, outside activities and other subjects like History, Science and Art. 

[Haiku]

Did Greek & Roman kids have play time? Or did they spend all of their waking time stretching their little minds? :001_cool:

Most Greek and Roman kids never went to school or had a tutor. Once you cut out the girls, the slaves, and the poor, you're left with very few who got much of an education. Most worked.

[8filltheheart]

Our 9th grader loves languages and plans on majoring in Russian with a minor in Latin and ultimately pursuing linguistics. She did Prima Latina in 2nd grade. It was not really "studying Latin". It was really just vocabulary and learning conjugations. In order to read and write in Latin, you have to understand case. Case determines endings and function. Word order is not like it is in English.

 

We switched to French in third grade (which she has taken ever since) and added Latin back in in 6th. We probably could have added Latin back in in 5th. Bc she was learning French and I have found that a minimum of a solid 2 yr is best before adding another lang, I wouldn't have started it in 4th bc of her building her French skills, but she was definitely ready for "real" Latin by 4th. She added Russian in 8th. She is now looking to add a 4th lang probably in the 2nd 1/2 of next yr.

 

My younger kids are starting Latin in 4th or 5th and moving along quickly. It seems like a good age for our household to start it as a focus. Upper level Latin courses are taught expecting high school level pace of input and output.

 

As for what Latin or Greek children were doing, they weren't doing formal academics at 5. Depending on what sources and centuries you read about, info varies. 7-9 seems to be the avg ages where most sources I have read have boys being engaged in active academic studies.

[happypamama]

We start Latin in third grade, along with a modern foreign language (French for DD, though she has now switched to Spanish, and Italian for DS1), using Getting Started With Latin. We do Latin about two days a week, and modern foreign language the other days. This is working well for us.

[KrissiK]

So...those who've started Latin early... How much time do you spend on it? (daily/weekly) I'm in this wretched tug-o'-war between all of the *many* things I want us to study & learn...and reality. My kids do want *some* play time. :tongue_smilie: Not wanting to derail the thread here...but how do you find that balance with all of this educating? :huh: Did Greek & Roman kids have play time? Or did they spend all of their waking time stretching their little minds? :001_cool:

We start Latin with Prima Latina in 3rd grade. With that, it's a 20 minute DVD once a week. We go over vocab and the workbook each day, take a little quiz in Quizlet on Fridays... it really only adds about 10-15 minutes each day. We also started Greek this year with Greek Alphabet Codecrackers and work on that 3 days a week for about 20 minutes a day. At this age, their little minds are like sponges. They memorize vocab lists lickety split. There are songs that go with the Greek curriculum... my three year old walks around singing the Greek Alphabet song. And she just hangs around and sits on my lap. With these languages that require so much memorization, and a child's natural propensity to memorize....it's like, ya gotta strike while the iron's hot!

[Guest 19thCent]

As someone who studied Latin in high school and then German in college, I would like to add that Latin is a very logical language. The rules have few exceptions. For instance, If a noun ends in -us, then it is guaranteed to be masculine. In German, nouns have gender, but there is no way to guess the gender. You simply have memorize and know the gender for every word. With German it's as if 90% of all words are actually exceptions to the "rules." Since Latin is so logical and simple to learn, it is a great foreign language to start with!

 The rules have few exceptions. For instance, If a noun ends in -us, then it is guaranteed to be masculine.

 

Unless it is 4th declension...

[KrissiK]

I have to agree with this. I am not a language person and found German impossible to learn and French not easy, but Latin is perfectly logical and much easier for me to learn.

That's what makes it fun. Translating sentences is like a puzzle. I've been frustrated in all other languages I've tried to learn, but I can do Latin! It makes sense to me. Even the declensions.

[Georgiana Daniels]

So...those who've started Latin early... How much time do you spend on it? (daily/weekly) I'm in this wretched tug-o'-war between all of the *many* things I want us to study & learn...and reality. My kids do want *some* play time.  :tongue_smilie:  Not wanting to derail the thread here...but how do you find that balance with all of this educating?  :huh: Did Greek & Roman kids have play time? Or did they spend all of their waking time stretching their little minds?  :001_cool:

 

We started with Song School Latin before my kids could read (only the songs and coloring sheets from an online source.) Once the kids could read English, we did SSL again, only this time with the worksheets. Then we moved on to Minimus, then Lively Latin (took 18 months or so) and two weeks ago we started Minimus Secondus. We work on it 3-4 days a week in bite-sized chunks. It's amazing how much Latin the kids know already. In fact, my 8 year old will often put sentences together when we're out and about just to amuse herself.