Kids Aiming High - College and the SAT

[omd21]

My oldest DD11 is in fifth grade. This is our first year homeschooling and we are both so pleased with the way things are going. In public school, she was always above grade level but not being challenged in spite of having tons of busy work. At home, she has been able to work at her level; she's sailing through pre-algebra and is right on track to start Algebra 1 in 6th Grade in August. She is also doing great on reading, having covered some classics on Ancients this year with excellent comprehension and depth.

 

In looking forward to continuing this journey, I'm not so nervous about me being able to provide her with the education she needs, as I am on being her guidance counselor. Although I realize we have time to let her be a kid, I want to help foster her true interests and help her achieve her dreams, find her niche. I want to serve her well. She says she wants to be a chemist, and for about a year or two, she has been saying she is going to go to a specific elite school, not something that I encouraged, but something she picked up from my sister and the process of applying to different med schools. She talks to all her relatives about going to this particular school and wants me to take her for a visit. 

 

This is rather scary to me. There was nothing spectacular about my own education and I'm not knowledgeable about getting a child into a top school. I would be thrilled if she made it to the college she dreams of, as long as it is the right place for her, which I'm not even sure of. When I think about the sort of student who does well there, I imagine a child whose idea of fun is doing math problems all day, or reading all day. My daughter is bright, but although she is comfortably two grade levels ahead, if you leave her to her own devices she is perfectly happy singing, putting together theatrical plays, and doing somersaults on the couch. I feel that in a way her life was more serious in PS, she had more deadlines and had to be more responsible. She is really enjoying her new found freedom with homeschooling this year and she is more relaxed about academics. Perhaps we are going through a transition period where she's decompressing from the pressures of a stressful schooling experience? Was there a point when your kids became more proactive and independent about their academics? 

 

For those of you whose kids were aiming high from a young age, how did you talk to them about their dreams? Did you encourage them to reach for the starts or tried to have a more realistic conversation with them? What's the right way to respond to these kind of goals?

 

She has always tested well and is currently in the John Hopkins University CTY program. We noticed that they offer the SAT in middle school. Have you had any experience with having a child take the SAT early? What would be the advantages and disadvantages of doing so?

 

I also wonder, with those of you whose children were in a more advanced track in Math and reading, when did they take the SAT? If she continues on this path she would finish Geometry and Algebra 2 by 8th or 9th grade. Are there any disadvantages to taking the SAT that early?

 

Are there any books on guiding academically advanced children that you've loved?

 

Any advice or thoughts on this are greatly appreciated.

 

Thank you!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[8filltheheart]

I would not want my child to have their heart set on a particular school if it is one of the highly competitive elite schools.   Too many really qualified kids are rejected every yr for anyone to presume that they will be accepted regardless of their transcript, scores, and additional accomplishments.

 

If you spend time on the accelerated board, you will see all kinds of kids that have taken alg in 6th grade or younger.   Taking the SAT before 9th grade has zero risk b/c those scores are not saved unless you request for them to be and don't have to be reported to any school that requires all test scores to be sent.

 

Spend time reading the forums.   You'll find plenty of info and support.   :)

[Crimson Wife]

The way I look at it is this: getting into an elite school is a total roll of the dice unless the child wins a national competition (and even then, the rest of the package has to be strong). You can't get your heart set on any particular school because the top schools are rejecting roughly 19 out of every 20 applicants. But building up a strong application will put the child in very good standing for merit scholarships at colleges looking to poach top students away from the elite schools. Maybe your DD will luck out and get into her dream school, but having a merit scholarship at some other college is not a bad consolation prize if she's part of the other 95% of applicants.

 

I would strongly encourage you to get a copy of Elizabeth Wissner-Gross' "What High Schools Won't Tell You". That book has chapters on opportunities related to various interests (math, science, politics/debate, the fine arts, etc.) Have your DD look through it to see what kinds of things she might be interested in pursuing.

[AK_Mom4]

Sometimes a kid just KNOWS what they want. DS22 always said he wanted to be an astronaut - from about the time he started kindergarten. When he hit high school, he met an older mentor thru boy scouts that encouraged him to consider the Air Force Academy and he got his head set on going there. He about drove me crazy because he would not even consider applying to other schools - he did send off an application to the Naval Academy, but I think that was mostly to stop me from nagging.

 

Here we are four years later - DS22 is graduating this spring from USAFA with a degree in Astro Engineering and is headed off to pilot school. Will he end up as an astronaut? Hard to tell, but he has as good a chance as any.

 

And sometimes.... The student has no idea what they want to do - just what they DON'T want. DD19 is my kid that covered a year of calculus in three months as a senior and decided she was done with school work. She is off studying music in college - nothing but music because she tested out of ALL her academic courses. She says she will probably get a degree in Music Education, but I think what she really wants to do is stay in college forever teaching music. And I wouldn't be surprised if that is exactly what she ends up doing!

 

All that long story to say - set yourself up for the long haul. Encourage your kiddo to explore different options and make sure they do the coursework that they need to keep their options open as well as the dreams alive. Teach them to study. Teach them to learn. And teach them to have fun doing it.

[Gwen in VA]

By all means, challenge your daughter academically.

 

But the BIGGEST gift of homeschooling in the elementary grades is having the time to pursue those odd interests -- building K'Nex creations, identifying every tree in the yard, drying flowers, doing math puzzles, practicing the piano for two hours, reading books endlessly, playing with friends at a park, learning how to cook.....

 

When your daughter is 25, no one will care if she took calculus in 9th grade or in 12th grade. No one will care that she won the spelling bee or got a 2400 on the SAT at age 13. Even at top graduate programs, people flourish because of characteristics like ingenuity, creativity, persistence, and the ability to make connections. Focus less on the academics and help your daughter to develop a strong character. Everything else will fall into place.

 

(I don't want to tell my whole parenting journey online, but after four kids I have discovered that academically gifted kids will flourish academically as long as they are allowed the freedom to pursue their interests. Use the gift of the extra time your child has to help her broaden her horizons and develop serious extra-curricular passions. Those passions may be the key that opens doors in her future and make her stand out in the crowd of academically high-achieving kids.)

[omd21]

Thank you so much for your insight, ladies. Being at home this year has been a blessing academically but also has brought this awareness about who she truly is. Before when she was in school we were both in auto pilot. Now that I have her at home and we talk all day long, these dreams have come to the surface. I want to get to know her well and guide her well.

 

I would not want my child to have their heart set on a particular school if it is one of the highly competitive elite schools.   Too many really qualified kids are rejected every yr for anyone to presume that they will be accepted regardless of their transcript, scores, and additional accomplishments.

 

That was exactly my concern. I wanted to pull from you ladies on how to have that conversation with your children. We chatted this morning about substituting the dream of going to a particular school, with the dream of going to the best school she can get into for the career she wants.

 

Thank you for sending me in the direction of the Accelerated Board. Since it's towards the bottom of the forums I had missed it. :)

 

I would strongly encourage you to get a copy of Elizabeth Wissner-Gross' "What High Schools Won't Tell You". 

 

Thank you so much for recommending this. I purchased it last night and I'm a couple of chapters in. I feel better about starting to think about these things early.

 

All that long story to say - set yourself up for the long haul. Encourage your kiddo to explore different options and make sure they do the coursework that they need to keep their options open as well as the dreams alive. Teach them to study. Teach them to learn. And teach them to have fun doing it.

 

Thank you for the encouragement, and congratulations on a job well done with your DC. It sounds like you guided them well to find their niche. We are just starting to discover how much fun education can truly be, more than I dreamed off when I started a few months ago. She is jumping with joy at Literature lists and her eyes sparkle when she gets a math concept. It's been a night and day difference from my worn-out fourth grader last year.

 

When your daughter is 25, no one will care if she took calculus in 9th grade or in 12th grade. No one will care that she won the spelling bee or got a 2400 on the SAT at age 13. Even at top graduate programs, people flourish because of characteristics like ingenuity, creativity, persistence, and the ability to make connections. Focus less on the academics and help your daughter to develop a strong character. Everything else will fall into place.

(I don't want to tell my whole parenting journey online, but after four kids I have discovered that academically gifted kids will flourish academically as long as they are allowed the freedom to pursue their interests. Use the gift of the extra time your child has to help her broaden her horizons and develop serious extra-curricular passions. Those passions may be the key that opens doors in her future and make her stand out in the crowd of academically high-achieving kids.)

 

This is so true. I was talking to my sister last night about her experience in med school at a top school, and that of some of her classmates. One of her classmates was an EMT, sailed halfway around the word on his own, etc. Another was in the military in Afghanistan before deciding to become a doctor. It is their drive, experiences, and life lessons that landed them there.

[wapiti]

I wanted to pull from you ladies on how to have that conversation with your children. We chatted this morning about substituting the dream of going to a particular school, with the dream of going to the best school she can get into for the career she wants.

 

That sounds like a good substitution.  We have the conversation regularly.   We have talked many times now, and she knows the low odds, a bit about what applications there are like, and that she'd need certain levels of scores, etc.  As she gets older and understands more about what's involved, her view of the big picture widens.  I'm confident that, at this point, she's not in love with any particular school.  Actually, these conversations have been very useful, especially with the boys listening in and participating.  As long as there's no single dream school, I think it helps them to have a vision of something to aim for, a little teeny tiny bit of motivation to work hard academically, a seed that will hopefully grow each year.  I like to pull up websites of different sorts of colleges and show the kids various things, from videos of academic department people to pictures of the campus and more.  (my little inventor, ds7, has decided that he's a Mudder...  *sigh*)

 

Why do these important chats always have to happen at bedtime though, when people need to get to sleep?  That's what I'd like to know...

 

Eta, a book I liked:  How to Be a High School Superstar

[wapiti]

You might also appreciate this admissions blog:  http://mitadmissions.org/blogs/entry/applying_sideways

[wendyroo]

In second grade I did a report on Buzz Aldrin and announced that I was going to go to MIT like him and become an engineer, and that is exactly what I did.  Would I have been disappointed if I had not been accepted into MIT?  Yes, devastated, but that concrete goal inspired me to accomplish some amazing things between the ages of 8 and 18 ... I think the risk of disappointment was worth it for me.  Even if I had not gotten into MIT, it is not like all my hard work would have been for naught; the academics and extracurriculars that made my MIT application strong also got me accepted at some other amazing universities.  Who knows, maybe if I hadn't been accepted as an undergrad I would have reapplied there for grad school...that dream fueled a lot of determination in me.

 

Wendy

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

A couple thoughts--

 

First, to stay in CTY your dd will have to retest at some point in 7th grade.  If it was her school that proposed her for the test last time you will need to take care of all that yourself (as the homeschool parent) this time.  SAT, ACT and SCAT are the only testing methods I think they accept at that level.  SAT scores for students under a certain age-I think it is 13 or basically before high school are not kept unless requested by the student/parent so they won't be on a permanent record.  For an SAT in high school--I don't know if it matters when you take it but...if a student were successful Junior year at the PSAT and qualified for a National Merit Scholarship I don't know if they require SAT scores from a particular date or from a date after the PSAT to qualify as a finalist.  Possibly worth investigating.

 

Secondly,  don't underestimate the effects of puberty.  It can change the game, create new challenges, create new priorities, etc.  In short, my advice is to keep goals but don't loose flexibility.  Oh-and don't forget to help her enjoy being a kid.

[Nan in Mass]

At her age, she is beginning to think about being grown up.  That is good.  You want her to do that.  She will look around for examples of being grown up.  Her aunt, who is in the process of getting somewhere, is perfect.  College appears to be a necessary part of that.  Everybody is happy and excited about her aunt's college choice.  That particular choice is real to her because her aunt is going there.  It seems like a doable plan for herself for the same reason.  Naturally, she has decided that this is her plan.  As she gets older, as you expose her to other people she admires who are going (or went) to other colleges, her ideas will probably expand.  Or she might continue to think this is the best option for her.  Either way, your idea of substituting "good college" for "x college" is exactly the right thing, I think.  She needs a goal and a plan.  Once she has those, she can relax and go back to playing and let the future take care of itself for awhile longer.  Visiting would help her imagine herself grownup.  If you want to visit (if it isn't too far away), you might continue the "good" college theme by finding friends or relatives at other colleges and visiting there as well.  Famous people might be a good idea, too.  Just in case the finances don't work out, it might be a good idea to investigate who has graduated from your state flagship university and visit that one, as well.  You could find her biographies to read so she learns about careers other than chemistry.  You can talk about how different studying a field can be from working in that field and help her think about whether she wants an indoor job or an outdoor job, one that works with her hands or one that is all on the computer, one that involves other people or one that does not, one that is easy to combine with a family or one that is not, one that involves travel or one that requires living in a certain place or one that can be done from home, etc..  Basically, this is a great time to talk about being grown up and begin talking about careers and the various factors that go into choosing one.  I wouldn't worry too much about her plan to go to her aunt's college.  That seems like a natural stepping stone plan.  Mine all decided to go to the closest college possible and live at home afterwards, at that age.  It was what they could imagine easily and what seemed comfortable.  Youngest continued to want a near-by college when it came time to apply, and wanted us to visit every week.  The other two went farther away.  The older two went to the same college.  They may or may not outgrow their first plan, so you need to treat it respectfully, but I don't think you need to worry too much about it, either. : )

Nan

[G5052]

 They may or may not outgrow their first plan, so you need to treat it respectfully, but I don't think you need to worry too much about it, either. : )

 

 

My 11th grader is getting college letters from the Ivies now.

 

His dream?  Live at home and commute to a local college that has a nationally-ranked program while continuing local martial arts (he is a black belt and loves teaching beginners).

 

Some 5-6 years ago it was entirely different.  And that's OK.

[Azalea]

My husband and I probably talked up "good" colleges too much to my oldest daughter. Around 8th grade I ran a net price calculator and learned that Reed College would expect us to pay $60,000 per year. Columbia University is currently priced at approx. $64,500 and this doesn't include travel costs. If prices continue to increase, as they probably will, will you have $100,000 per year to pay for a dream college? There is endless chatter about scholarships, etc. to help pay, and it is wonderful that lower income families receive a discounted price on college, but approximately 50% of families pay FULL price to attend the school of their dreams. Will you be able to offer all of your children $100,000 per year? 

[katilac]

My husband and I probably talked up "good" colleges too much to my oldest daughter. Around 8th grade I ran a net price calculator and learned that Reed College would expect us to pay $60,000 per year. Columbia University is currently priced at approx. $64,500 and this doesn't include travel costs. If prices continue to increase, as they probably will, will you have $100,000 per year to pay for a dream college? There is endless chatter about scholarships, etc. to help pay, and it is wonderful that lower income families receive a discounted price on college, but approximately 50% of families pay FULL price to attend the school of their dreams. Will you be able to offer all of your children $100,000 per year? 

 

Yep, run those calculators early and often! Some schools come at a hefty price even after both need-based AND merit aid. 

 

If you decide to share this type of info with your dd fairly early on, make sure to also emphasize that THINGS CHANGE. Colleges that claim to meet all need now may not do so in the future. Colleges that offer a certain level of aid now may not do so in the future. Standards and competition for scholarships may change. Parents lose jobs. 

 

It doesn't seem like it should be quite this complicated, but it is. 

[8filltheheart]

My husband and I probably talked up "good" colleges too much to my oldest daughter. Around 8th grade I ran a net price calculator and learned that Reed College would expect us to pay $60,000 per year. Columbia University is currently priced at approx. $64,500 and this doesn't include travel costs. If prices continue to increase, as they probably will, will you have $100,000 per year to pay for a dream college? There is endless chatter about scholarships, etc. to help pay, and it is wonderful that lower income families receive a discounted price on college, but approximately 50% of families pay FULL price to attend the school of their dreams. Will you be able to offer all of your children $100,000 per year?

This is our reality. Ds received lots of scholarships at great schools, but the cost would still end up totaling a minimum of $100,000 for 4 yrs at most of them. That is way beyond our means. He has decided to attend a state flagship university where he has enough scholarship to attend for free. Is it his dream school? It wasn't. As a matter of fact he had never even really heard of the school until last yr and was told that his SAT scores would give him full-tuition. He won a few other scholarships from the school which can stack and cover the cost of room and board.

 

The added benefit is that as he started investigating the school, he found out that it offers some unique opportunites. He applied and is waiting to hear if he has been accepted into an honors research program. He is now excited about the school and can really see himself thriving there.

[Catherine]

I would also add that building the kind of resume that one needs to gain admission to Ivies is an all-consuming full time job for parent and child.  I have observed, in the handful of kids I know personally that have gotten into Harvard and Yale, that often the kid who has spent a childhood in this way is then left with no clear plan for the time after Harvard. 

 

IMO, it is more important for a kid to actually have some genuine life experience of the kind that doesn't look impressive on a resume and at the same time helps him or her to move toward self-sufficiency and adulthood. 

[Crimson Wife]

I would also add that building the kind of resume that one needs to gain admission to Ivies is an all-consuming full time job for parent and child.  I have observed, in the handful of kids I know personally that have gotten into Harvard and Yale, that often the kid who has spent a childhood in this way is then left with no clear plan for the time after Harvard. 

 

IMO, it is more important for a kid to actually have some genuine life experience of the kind that doesn't look impressive on a resume and at the same time helps him or her to move toward self-sufficiency and adulthood.

This sounds like sour grapes to me...

 

Actually, for my own kids' benefit, I should be discouraging other HSers from aiming high. [insert eye-rolling smiley here]

[regentrude]

I would also add that building the kind of resume that one needs to gain admission to Ivies is an all-consuming full time job for parent and child.  I have observed, in the handful of kids I know personally that have gotten into Harvard and Yale, that often the kid who has spent a childhood in this way is then left with no clear plan for the time after Harvard. 

 

IMO, it is more important for a kid to actually have some genuine life experience of the kind that doesn't look impressive on a resume and at the same time helps him or her to move toward self-sufficiency and adulthood.

 

 

I agree. And I do not think it is "sour grapes" as another poster described.

I happen to have a student who is competetive for highly selective schools.  But even so, we made sure NOT to spend four years grooming for admission to an Ivy and selecting every class and activity with an eye on how that might look on the college application.

The four years of high school are valuable life time. They are a time the young person should use to pursue his or her interests, try out activities, follow passions, and yes, get a good education. It is towards the end of this time that you see whether this has led to a resume that is competetive or not - but I would never want a student to keep his eyes on the elusive prize of admission to an Ivy school and live every day with this goal in sight. The chances are very slim, even for the most talented students with impressive resumes - the education and the activities themselves need to be the goal, not how they look on paper.

 

If my DD does not get into an Ivy school or her dream school (which is not Ivy, but equally selective), she still had four years of a fantastic high school education and has been involved in activities and extracurriculars that she loves. What she has learned and experienced nobody can take away from her, and she will benefit from it wherever she goes.

My advice would be to prepare your student for a GOOD school, give her freedom to pursue her interests... and see where she ends up.

[raptor_dad]

I would also add that building the kind of resume that one needs to gain admission to Ivies is an all-consuming full time job for parent and child.  I have observed, in the handful of kids I know personally that have gotten into Harvard and Yale, that often the kid who has spent a childhood in this way is then left with no clear plan for the time after Harvard. 

 

IMO, it is more important for a kid to actually have some genuine life experience of the kind that doesn't look impressive on a resume and at the same time helps him or her to move toward self-sufficiency and adulthood. 

 

This thread has had a lot of great advice on maintaining realistic goals and balance.

 

However, I disagree that it has to be full time job. At least if you view a job as a soul crushing burden. Regardless of outcomes, Regentrude's daughter is a strong Ivy candidate. Her strong resume grew out of her natural talents and interests. Sure, you always read about work-aholic kids grinding out activities and grades and then being crushed when it is not enough. But, selective school are full of bright, curious kids who naturally generated the stats and activities to get in. I think depicting these kids as driven automatons is a little too cliched. You can have a normal life and go to an elite school. These kids go into the elite schools feeling more like a kid in a candy shop than king of the hill. Follow the advice earlier in the thread, maintain some flexibility and the outcomes will take care of themself.

[EndOfOrdinary]

Currently my son is cynical about all formal schooling, so I can't say he has chosen a school. However, I am almost positive this will change when he gets to see just what is really out there. He is a competitive perfectionist and would either thrive or meltdown in an Ivy setting.

 

It is out there and if he wanted to go I wouldn't stop him. I would just be really straight up about how many get in and what an Ivy resume looks like. It would be his decision to push. If she really wants it, let her try. Just be sure she knows what she is up against and that you are not more invested than she is.

 

As a parent I want his options to be open. He is a kid who could compete at that level if he wanted to, so we are looking into building the portfolio. If he never uses it, he will still have an amazing portfolio for jobs, grants, or a State school.

 

As for the silly while still thinking about Ivy, my son is currently determined to take on Big Oil and King Coal to stop global warming. He speaks in front of 100+ people regularly and works with national organizations for rallies and federal testimony.

He is trying to start his own non-profit environmental organization. Compare that to the kid who just got in trouble for cussing out a creeper on MineCraft and thinks fart jokes are hysterical. He is going to go play in the snow storm outside later and I have to help him put his gloves on and with the coat zipper. He has a grant writing mentor, but I have to remind him to brush his teeth and that he cannot drink syrup just because it is a liquid. This is what will save my kid from Ivy burnout.

 

Let your daughter turn summersaults on the coach one minute and prepare for an AP Calculus test the next. It is far healthier than neurotic single minded ness presented in programs at PS. After all, she is 11. She's a baby! A baby at the right age to be considering Harvard if she wants to get in, but still a baby. My job as a parent is to help him become a Harvard grad who drinks syrup and thinks fart jokes are funny.

[LibraryLover]

 Make sure she has access to solid and challenging sciences if that is her desire.

[quark]

For those of you whose kids were aiming high from a young age, how did you talk to them about their dreams? Did you encourage them to reach for the starts or tried to have a more realistic conversation with them? What's the right way to respond to these kind of goals?

 

She has always tested well and is currently in the John Hopkins University CTY program. We noticed that they offer the SAT in middle school. Have you had any experience with having a child take the SAT early? What would be the advantages and disadvantages of doing so?

 

I also wonder, with those of you whose children were in a more advanced track in Math and reading, when did they take the SAT? If she continues on this path she would finish Geometry and Algebra 2 by 8th or 9th grade. Are there any disadvantages to taking the SAT that early?

 

Are there any books on guiding academically advanced children that you've loved?

 

Any advice or thoughts on this are greatly appreciated.

 

Thank you!

 

I am so happy for you that homeschooling is working out so well. I sometimes wish I had another child for the selfish reason that I could experience his/ her happiness with being schooled his/ her way all over again. :001_wub:

 

I will try not to repeat suggestions from others who have more experience than I have. My son and I talk regularly about his future goals. It usually revolves around his love of math and what other math passionate people before him have done and sometimes we talk about what he needs to do to be college ready (mainly to encourage him to write more lol...he is writing averse!). Lately, his writing assignments have involved researching mathematicians :D.

 

Most of my one on one time with him is not academic as much as life skills based. Encouraging him to exercise, teaching him to be self sufficient, etc. I suppose since he is an only child, I fell into the habit of doing things for him when he was younger. I am trying to undo that now.

 

My son will take the SAT in a week's time. He is currently learning algebra 2 with trig with an online class and finds the math level of the SAT up his alley so he doesn't need a lot of prep to cover the content, only to get him used to the test format and timing. He is doing well in the reading practice too. He is prone to some OCD and anxiety behaviors so I do tread lightly and am not having high expectations about the actual test day and test results. Maybe because it's all low pressure and flexible in our homeschool, he doesn't feel any anxiety with the upcoming SAT. Since he is completely psyched up about the test, I don't see any disadvantages at all. My primary reason for homeschooling is his emotional health so most of the decisions I make revolve around that.

 

Some resources I've found helpful:

1. High IQ Kids (when we were first coming to grips with gifted behaviors and academic compacting)

2. Reading online articles about Terence Tao (not because I think my son is a prodigy but because I admire Tao's parents and am inspired by how they overcame challenges)

3. Many of the accelerated, high school and college board posts on these WTM forums (for high school/ college readiness info)

4. The hs2coll yahoo group (high school/ college readiness info)

5. Articles on the Hoagies gifted and Davidson Institute sites (acceleration, compacting, asynchronous development info)

[Gratia271]

My oldest DD11 is in fifth grade. This is our first year homeschooling and we are both so pleased with the way things are going. In public school, she was always above grade level but not being challenged in spite of having tons of busy work. At home, she has been able to work at her level; she's sailing through pre-algebra and is right on track to start Algebra 1 in 6th Grade in August. She is also doing great on reading, having covered some classics on Ancients this year with excellent comprehension and depth.

 

In looking forward to continuing this journey, I'm not so nervous about me being able to provide her with the education she needs, as I am on being her guidance counselor. Although I realize we have time to let her be a kid, I want to help foster her true interests and help her achieve her dreams, find her niche. I want to serve her well. She says she wants to be a chemist, and for about a year or two, she has been saying she is going to go to a specific elite school, not something that I encouraged, but something she picked up from my sister and the process of applying to different med schools. She talks to all her relatives about going to this particular school and wants me to take her for a visit. 

 

This is rather scary to me. There was nothing spectacular about my own education and I'm not knowledgeable about getting a child into a top school. I would be thrilled if she made it to the college she dreams of, as long as it is the right place for her, which I'm not even sure of. When I think about the sort of student who does well there, I imagine a child whose idea of fun is doing math problems all day, or reading all day. My daughter is bright, but although she is comfortably two grade levels ahead, if you leave her to her own devices she is perfectly happy singing, putting together theatrical plays, and doing somersaults on the couch. I feel that in a way her life was more serious in PS, she had more deadlines and had to be more responsible. She is really enjoying her new found freedom with homeschooling this year and she is more relaxed about academics. Perhaps we are going through a transition period where she's decompressing from the pressures of a stressful schooling experience? Was there a point when your kids became more proactive and independent about their academics? 

 

For those of you whose kids were aiming high from a young age, how did you talk to them about their dreams? Did you encourage them to reach for the starts or tried to have a more realistic conversation with them? What's the right way to respond to these kind of goals?

 

She has always tested well and is currently in the John Hopkins University CTY program. We noticed that they offer the SAT in middle school. Have you had any experience with having a child take the SAT early? What would be the advantages and disadvantages of doing so?

 

I also wonder, with those of you whose children were in a more advanced track in Math and reading, when did they take the SAT? If she continues on this path she would finish Geometry and Algebra 2 by 8th or 9th grade. Are there any disadvantages to taking the SAT that early?

 

Are there any books on guiding academically advanced children that you've loved?

 

Any advice or thoughts on this are greatly appreciated.

 

Thank you!

As others have said, taking the SAT early doesn't present any drawbacks in my opinion.  My daughter took it in 8th grade, and it was a great experience for her.  She wanted to get it out of the way before high school and was motivated to do so. Regarding the track leading up to SATs, DD had completed the traditional high school math sequence.   Having studied Latin and Greek, she didn't "prepare" for the vocabulary portion of the CR sections. Some of the reading comp. passages were challenging, primarily due to their boring content.

 

When we discuss her goals, I endeavor to listen more and talk less.  I encourage all of my children to reach for their dreams... tempering that encouragement with the reality of who they are (their unique talents, their personalities AND their limitations).   Exploring different paths is important, as interests may change.  At the same time, some kids know from the beginning where they want to attend school as well as what they want to study.... and it doesn't change.  So I would encourage her to work toward her goals, coming up with a plan that is realistic for her.  

 

I don't have any books to recommend, but the ladies on this board have been invaluable!   

 

[Catherine]

Hey-sour grapes here.

 

Here's the link for the book Crimsonwife recommends: http://www.amazon.com/What-High-Schools-Other-Parents-ebook/dp/B000UB9NIE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1393810908&sr=8-1&keywords=what+high+schools+won%27t+tell+you

 

And here's an excerpt from the editor's review:

 

In order to succeed in the fiercely competitive college admissions game, you need a game plan—and you have to start young. In this empowering guide, Elizabeth Wissner- Gross, a nationally sought-after college “packager,†helps parents of seventh to tenth graders create a long-term plan that, come senior year, will allow their kids to virtually write their own ticket into their choice of schools.

 

Parents should start by helping their kids identify their academic passions, then design a four-year strategy based on those interests. The book details hundreds of opportunities available to make kids stand out that most high school guidance counselors and teachers simply don’t know about or don’t think to share.

 

I think this kind of book fits perfectly with the resume-building exercise I was describing earlier. The author is frank about the careful, 6 year long plan that parent and child must follow to build a resume worthy of an Ivy. And I still contend that anyone who is going to be successful at this exercise must be prepared to give up a lot in order to convince Stanford that their carefully developed and nurtured "passion" comes from the depths of their heart, not from an all-consuming plan to...develop a resume worthy of Stanford.

[omd21]

Thank you so much for all the wonderful insight. You have given me so much to think about from both sides of the equation.

 

Besides reading to her every day from her birth and chatting with her constantly, any success she has had with academics has been natural and self driven. I have never completed any IQ or psychological testing (should I?). All we really know is she is a self starter when it comes to learning and she'd score in the 99th percentile in yearly competency tests (which I know is not that exceptional when you compare her to some of the kids in the accelerated learner board, we are talking about grade level tests from the PS here). Honestly when she was in K and First Grade I thought: "so she is an early reader and she is good at math, that will probably even out with the other kids later on"; I didn't give it too much thought. Now that we are at home and she is comfortably working 2-3 grade levels above, I'm starting to think more about her path and how I can make sure I can provide her with what she needs. 

 

Why do these important chats always have to happen at bedtime though, when people need to get to sleep?  That's what I'd like to know...

You read my mind!! She falls asleep at the snap of her fingers and I'm left tossing and turning until the wee hours thinking about her aspirations. :)

 

In second grade I did a report on Buzz Aldrin and announced that I was going to go to MIT like him and become an engineer, and that is exactly what I did.  

Amazing! Thank you for sharing your inspirational story. I'm always in awe of people who find their passion early in life, as I was a late bloomer myself.

 

You can talk about how different studying a field can be from working in that field and help her think about whether she wants an indoor job or an outdoor job, one that works with her hands or one that is all on the computer, one that involves other people or one that does not, one that is easy to combine with a family or one that is not, one that involves travel or one that requires living in a certain place or one that can be done from home, etc..  .... Mine all decided to go to the closest college possible and live at home afterwards, at that age.  

I fear the day that she is going to have to go away. We have a very easy relationship and I would much rather have her stay close to me, but she has been saying since she was in second grade that she is not staying in the same state for college. She has always been independent and if she has a change of heart and stays home I will be very surprised.

 

This thread has had a lot of great advice on maintaining realistic goals and balance.

 

However, I disagree that it has to be full time job. At least if you view a job as a soul crushing burden. Regardless of outcomes, Regentrude's daughter is a strong Ivy candidate. Her strong resume grew out of her natural talents and interests. Sure, you always read about work-aholic kids grinding out activities and grades and then being crushed when it is not enough. But, selective school are full of bright, curious kids who naturally generated the stats and activities to get in. I think depicting these kids as driven automatons is a little too cliched. You can have a normal life and go to an elite school. These kids go into the elite schools feeling more like a kid in a candy shop than king of the hill. Follow the advice earlier in the thread, maintain some flexibility and the outcomes will take care of themself.

You couldn't have said it better.

 

 I have to help him put his gloves on and with the coat zipper. He has a grant writing mentor, but I have to remind him to brush his teeth and that he cannot drink syrup just because it is a liquid. This is what will save my kid from Ivy burnout.

This rings so familiar and I'm so glad you shared a little about your son; maybe I'm not as alone as I thought. :) . DD is responsible and driven in her academics. She's such a fast learner, it doesn't take more work for her to grasp math and science concepts; she has so much information stored up in her little brain. She is brilliant chatting with other kids and with adults alike, but her room is an utter disaster, she is singing, climbing trees, scattered. She is distracted to the extent I think sometimes she is going to float away on a cloud.

 

Some resources I've found helpful:

1. High IQ Kids (when we were first coming to grips with gifted behaviors and academic compacting)

2. Reading online articles about Terence Tao (not because I think my son is a prodigy but because I admire Tao's parents and am inspired by how they overcame challenges)

3. Many of the accelerated, high school and college board posts on these WTM forums (for high school/ college readiness info)

4. The hs2coll yahoo group (high school/ college readiness info)

5. Articles on the Hoagies gifted and Davidson Institute sites (acceleration, compacting, asynchronous development info)

Thank you so much! This is so helpful!

[omd21]

I would also add that building the kind of resume that one needs to gain admission to Ivies is an all-consuming full time job for parent and child.  I have observed, in the handful of kids I know personally that have gotten into Harvard and Yale, that often the kid who has spent a childhood in this way is then left with no clear plan for the time after Harvard. 

 

IMO, it is more important for a kid to actually have some genuine life experience of the kind that doesn't look impressive on a resume and at the same time helps him or her to move toward self-sufficiency and adulthood. 

 

This is very interesting. I'm curious to hear more about the kids you've met who've had no clear focus after attending an Ivy. Can you tell me more?

 

My exposure to Ivy grads mainly comes from my sister's classmates, whom I've spent time with regularly as I visit her often. I think they are wonderful! At least the 6 or so that I've met, all genuinely have a passion for medicine, and are interesting people of good character that I'm honored to consider my friends. With the exception of my sister and my sister's boyfriend, the rest went to Ivies or top 10 schools. My sister and her boyfriend are the two in that group who went to state schools.

[Catherine]

odalysmd21, I think we are talking about different things. The Ivy league students, or former students that I know are lovely people too. What I was referring to in my post was simply the phenomenon of kids devoting so much energy to their goal of simply getting into a particular college that they end up drifting a bit afterward. I'm not even saying that drifting is bad, per se. My dh was in that category. Once someone suggested to him that medicine would suit him, he changed course senior year. He was a history major, but started some of his premed requirements that year, and finished them later. He did fine and IMO is a wonderful doctor! I also am acquainted with some students locally who attend Ivies or are grads. One is a driven go-getter, but several are spending the decade after graduating figuring out what they want to do next. Maybe that is the bad economy? But I wonder also if there is a bit of "let down" once there is no longer an overriding challenge, and the kid is trying to find another goal to seek.

[wendyroo]

One is a driven go-getter, but several are spending the decade after graduating figuring out what they want to do next. Maybe that is the bad economy? But I wonder also if there is a bit of "let down" once there is no longer an overriding challenge, and the kid is trying to find another goal to seek.

 

I think it depends a lot on whose dream it was for the kid to go to the Ivy in the first place.  

 

Sure, if the parent starts pushing the kid in middle school to do extracurriculars in which the kid is not particularly interested, and then pushes the kid through high school to enroll in umpteen AP classes and then drags the kid through the application process and tells the kid what to say at the interview....I would not be surprised if that kid eventually drifts as he figures out who he is and what he wants to do.

 

OTOH, I was the one dragging my parents (and principals and guidance counselors) behind me as they desperately tried to keep up.  During middle school and high school I took the initiative and arranged to test out of algebra, geometry, word processing, middle school social studies, etc.  I presented plans to the principals on what subjects I would teach myself during those times slots.  During 8th grade I went before the school board and convinced them to bus me from the middle school to the high school every afternoon because the middle school had nothing left to offer me.

 

I spent copious amounts of time studying and volunteering.  I started college classes when I was 13.  For a couple years during high school I practically lived in the metal shop and then I did machine shop competitions and was ranked the 13th best machinist in the country.  I worked two part time jobs so I was in a better position to pay for MIT.  Was it a rigorous education?  Yes.  Was it a demanding schedule?  Yes.  But I was the only one making myself do it and I have never regretted how I spent those years.  I met amazing people, had incredible opportunities and had lots of practice creating and working toward goals. 

 

From my experience at MIT, I do not know any of my classmates that seriously floundered after graduation.  The people I knew there were just as ridiculously driven as I was/am.  We don't get stymied easily by a lack of over-riding challenge; we make our own challenges - start a company, save a species, cure a disease, invent a new gadget, homeschool some children....who may, or may not, ever want to try for an Ivy, but if they do it will be their dream and I will mostly stay out of their way.

 

Wendy

[Muttichen]

I don't feel like my kids have focused all their time and energy into getting into Ivies.  We provided a rich, challenging environment from the time they were young, and they thrived in it.  No one even thought about Ivies when they were young.  We moved them along in math as they were ready, read lots, did foreign language as a family, and so on.

 

When oldest dd got to high school, dh and I wanted to be sure that the education we provided didn't close any doors for her.  We didn't want her to get to 12th grade and not get into whatever school she wanted because of a decision we made.  So we read some books and looked at what the top colleges recommend.  We decided to have her take AP classes because (a) she was ready for them and they were the next natural step, and (b ) colleges understand and appreciate them.  If anyone gave up their dream to follow this approach, it was me, not her.  I had been planning to stick with the great books/ history and lit together/ chronological approach that we'd been using all along.  I was crushed to think of doing European History in one year and taking an exam.  Dd liked it better. :)

 

As far as extra-curriculars and so on, other than requiring our kids to play sports and an instrument, they've done what they wanted.  They haven't given up anything.

 

We've required a big project in 11th grade, but they've chosen the project, and an internship in 12th, which again, they've chosen.  No one is asking them to give up their dreams.  No one is obsessing over getting into an ivy league school.  Would they have chosen to take so many hard classes?  Probably not, but we believe hard work pays off and we want to teach them that.  They've complained some, when they see local homeschool peers taking a couple of easy classes at the CC and coop and being done by noon every day, but they've been thankful in the long run.

 

When our kids applied to colleges, they had a variety of schools they liked and would have been happy at.  They always looked at the ivies as a long shot and never as a sure thing that they'd be crushed if they didn't achieve.  Dd 21 actually had a hard time deciding whether to go to Princeton or Grove City!  She did end up at Princeton and she's very happy, but I promise you, it was never a dream that either she or we were obsessed with.

 

Also, I've met MANY of my kids' friends at Harvard and Princeton.  They are amazing, well-adjusted kids with clear goals.   The ones who have graduated are doing great.

 

To the OP -- encourage your daughter's dream, but also encourage her to be realistic about the odds of getting into one particular school.  As she gets older, be sure she gets to visit other schools so she can imagine herself happy other places.

 

 

[Gwen in VA]

Thank you, Muttichen, for your post. I love it!

 

Undoubtedly some folks "play the game" and spend the high school years trying to develop a resume.

 

But for many many others (including ALL of the many MIT and Ivy grads I know), high achievement and excellence are integral to who they are and what they do, so creating an Ivy-ready record is simply a result of who they are and what they have done.

 

Encourage your child to pursue excellence and he/she cannot fail, regardless of what college he/she attends.

[Hoggirl]

When oldest dd got to high school, dh and I wanted to be sure that the education we provided didn't close any doors for her. We didn't want her to get to 12th grade and not get into whatever school she wanted because of a decision we made. So we read some books and looked at what the top colleges recommend. We decided to have her take AP classes because (a) she was ready for them and they were the next natural step, and (b ) colleges understand and appreciate them. If anyone gave up their dream to follow this approach, it was me, not her. I had been planning to stick with the great books/ history and lit together/ chronological approach that we'd been using all along. I was crushed to think of doing European History in one year and taking an exam. Dd liked it better. :)

 

When our kids applied to colleges, they had a variety of schools they liked and would have been happy at. They always looked at the ivies as a long shot and never as a sure thing that they'd be crushed if they didn't achieve.

 

To the OP -- encourage your daughter's dream, but also encourage her to be realistic about the odds of getting into one particular school. As she gets older, be sure she gets to visit other schools so she can imagine herself happy other places.

One of my many mantras that I have stated here before is, "Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it." I totally agree with the point about not closing any doors. The entire high school path need not be contrived with the sole purpose of applying to Ivy League schools. However, if no planning is done at all, one may very well wind up lacking.

 

My ds has reached very high in his college applications. We'll see how he does. But, we have also come up with some schools where he will be or has already been accepted, where he will be able to pursue what he wants, and where (we hope) he will be happy.

 

The "dream" gets harder and harder to achieve every year simply based on the sheer volume of applicants to top schools. Being realistic about odds yet encouraging a child to attempt to gain admission at those schools if that is what s/he wants to do is a delicate balance.

[creekland]

Undoubtedly some folks "play the game" and spend the high school years trying to develop a resume.

 

But for many many others, high achievement and excellence are integral to who they are and what they do, so creating an Ivy-ready record is simply a result of who they are and what they have done.

 

 

And this is the point of it all.  Both types exist.  I've seen both types.  If one only has experience with one or the other, it's easy to think that's all that is out there.

 

To me, it's great when it's student driven (they really shouldn't get their heart set on one dream college), but it's awful when it's parent driven.  The latter can lead to some pretty stressed out kids/adults.

 

Middle son fits in there with drive and stats, etc, although he opted not to head Top 10 with his applications.  He is thriving at a Top 30 - great grades, super active in clubs, research, volunteering, etc.  He's enjoying every minute of it.  IF I were to push youngest to be like his brother with such in depth studying, he wouldn't survive (literally).  Both are quite intelligent.  The latter does not have the drive.  Both are great kids and will do well in this world in their own niche.  Middle would be stifled and not reach his potential at an "easier" place.

 

[Frances]

  Middle would be stifled and not reach his potential at an "easier" place.

 

 

I'm curious about the reasoning behind this statement. While I think it's great that your son has found such a good fit, as he is a STEM major, I think he could have challenged himself at a wide range of schools.My husband and I attended one of the "Colleges that Change Lives" LACs as undergrads and then I did one year of grad work at a Big 12 U before switching fields and going to a top ranked program at an Ivy for a STEM grad degree. Honestly, there was plenty to challenge me at all three places, and I would actually rank the Ivy last in terms of overall educational experience. While certainly there is a difference in the peer cohort as you move up in rankings, being the "big fish in a small pond" can open up some amazing opportunities. For example, my husband (also a STEM major) spent several summers after college teaching at one of the Ivies with one of his undergrad professors. We feel this had a direct impact on later grad school acceptances (he has two doctorates - one professional, one academic) and academic job offers. And for both of us, our undergrad professors were not just our teachers and mentors, they were and still are some of our closest friends. Also, most colleges allow prepared students to take advanced classes as soon as they have met the prerequisites. I know several very strong students who chose our state flagship over much higher ranked schools and are thriving with multiple majors and minors, research, volunteer and internship experiences, etc. Most were able to start taking graduate level courses by their sophomore or junior year.

 

My husband has taught and/or taken classes at pretty much every type of school out there (community college, LAC, large state U, small state U, Ivy) and in his experience, he feels people vastly overestimate the differences in the educational experience available at a wide range of institutions. Strong, driven students will seek out and find challenges at a wide variety of institutions. Does this mean I think students shouldn't strive for the top schools? Absolutely not. But if for some reason they are not accepted or choose not to go to a highly ranked school, they can still find amazing, challenging opportunities that will open up a wide variety of post undergrad opportunities. Right now the chem department at our undergrad LAC (maybe top 75?) has two graduate students at MIT and when my husband taught at our local LAC (maybe top 60?), he sent students to grad school at Caltech, Stanford, Columbia, Yale, University of Chicago, etc. and they felt very prepared and did great.

 

As a caveat to all of the above, I would say that my thoughts primarily relate to STEM majors, especially those who plan to go on to some type of grad school. For those who want to work right out of undergrad and/or who are majoring in something with more limited job opportunities, I do think the name recognition, network, etc. from a highly ranked school (either overall or for that particular major) can be very helpful.

[KarenNC]

My daughter did both the ACT and SAT in 7th grade as a 12 yo last year and had no problems. We chose the ACT through the Duke program (our region's talent search) in Jan because it fulfills our yearly test requirement for the state (SAT doesn't), then later found out about the free SET program through Johns Hopkins, which requires a 700 in a section of the SAT prior to turning 13. Her ACT scores in the verbal areas showed that wasn't totally out of reach, so we decided to try in May, as she turned 13 over the summer. She didn't make it, but it was a good experience, especially the essay (Duke kids in 7th/8th don't do the essay in the ACT). She has never had test anxiety, which was part of our decision. We may well continue to do both tests yearly, as it's good experience, and I hope to start her with the PSAT next year in 9th, as I think she has the potential for National Merit. She took both the SAT and ACT at a local high school with no issues. For the ACT, registration went through Duke, but we did the SAT on our own through the College Board website (since the talent search only included one test) and had the choice of multiple school sites. It was very straightforward. For the PSAT, we will have to find a local high school that will let us register through them, as that process is different. Make sure that you stay on top of that, since the PSAT is only offered once a year in October, so you need to finalize a testing site early. It also only qualifies for consideration for National Merit in the student's junior year, though it can be taken multiple times.

 

I understand and sympathize about the concerns over being a guidance counselor! I've been immersing myself in learning about options for the past year or so, as we're getting ready to start 9th. The accelerated board and the high school board have been great for that and I'm beginning to feel like things might work out. :)  At your daughter's age, mine had set her heart on being an interior designer/artist and going to one of two particular schools. This year, she's discovered psychology and is now strongly considering that, so be prepared that she may change, many times (I changed my major 5 times in college!). She may not, but she may, and either will work out. I've worked on supporting her current goals, while continuing to encourage her to try out other things I believe she will enjoy. Do be aware that some of the most competitive schools don't give merit aid to anyone, just need-based.

[creekland]

I'm curious about the reasoning behind this statement.

 

First of all, I would imagine there are probably some 200 - 300 schools that could be in a "Top 30" category pending what one is looking for.  It's not just 30 IMO.  Other schools my guy applied to, and would have been just fine at, are in those Top couple hundred... ;)

 

But otherwise... there is a difference in schools just like there's a difference in a good (academic) high school and an average or poor one.  I've seen the differences (via actual tests and their content).  I've talked with students who have attended different types of schools.  Peers of middle son who chose different paths have outright told him they wish they had chosen differently after they've seen the differences (esp in opportunity for things like research).  There isn't just one - or 10/20/30/50, etc - good schools, but there is a difference between School A and School B.  They are not interchangeable with all they offer.

 

Students can succeed in life, in acceptance to grad or professional schools, in the workplace, etc, from pretty much any school, but their path along the way of getting there is different based upon their choices.

 

Youngest will be attending what we feel is the Top school for what he wants to do - not "a" top school, but "the" top school specifically for what he wants.  It's a CTCL school.  ;)  He could go elsewhere - we looked at a few other choices.  Their content (and for one, the fit) just doesn't compare in our opinion.  One of the schools would have been close to free for him, but if the content isn't comparable... well, we opted to send him to where we feel is the best.  His desired path is very competitive.  The degree is likely to matter.

 

YMMV 

 

(Middle son is attending the least expensive of his options, but financially we could have done his 1st, 2nd, or 3rd choice as he preferred and any would have been fine for his ability.  He had a far wider range of "top" colleges since he's pre-med as "Plan A.")

 

[Frances]

First of all, I would imagine there are probably some 200 - 300 schools that could be in a "Top 30" category pending what one is looking for.  It's not just 30 IMO.  Other schools my guy applied to, and would have been just fine at, are in those Top couple hundred... ;)

 

 

 

I didn't realize you were including such a large number of schools in your acceptable category, so I think we are probably actually in agreement. I agree that it is about finding the best fit for a particular student and that choosing the wrong school may limit opportunities. Some schools (or particular majors within a school) have no track record of sending students on to top grad schools and if that is a goal, a student would definitely want to look elsewhere.

 

I think the one thing about STEM majors that makes the list of acceptable schools somewhat wider is the fact that for most STEM majors there is a common core of very difficult courses (e.g. organic chemistry, calculus based physics, differential equations, etc.) regardless of the university chosen. While certainly the courses may be harder or easier at one school than another, mastering the material anywhere is going to be difficult and grades are based primarily on objective, not subjective criteria. So I think most STEM majors are going to face a challenging curriculum at most schools. And at any university with grad STEM programs they will be able to take graduate level courses as an undergrad. Also, there are many programs that allow STEM students to go to different universities for a summer or semester to do research.

 

Outside of STEM fields, I think there can be much more variation in the quality and quantity of coursework required to earn a degree and have definitely seen cases where students leave a school with little more than their diploma.

[Elisabet1]

We have a fair number of family members who went to schools that would be called elite. My husband went to U of Chicago. We have other very close family who went to places like Wash U, Rice, Stanford, Carleton, etc. We thought our children would follow suit.

 

When everything came to reality, well, we live in Texas. And I am not that interested in my children moving across country for college. Maybe this is a mistake of mine. But my daughter did not end up applying to the elite schools she originally planned to apply to. She has a boyfriend and he has been accepted ED to an Ivy League school. I have asked her if she has any regrets in where she applied, she swears she does not. 

 

I have started paying a lot of attention to those who went to elite schools and those who did not and where they end up. It seems the end result is not improved by going to en elite school. If you end up liking an elite school for what it is, then great. If not, then consider other schools.  There are a few careers where an elite school would benefit a person, mostly politics type careers. But for everything else, there are so many other great options. A school should be a good fit to the child, your family, and your bank account.

[Crimson Wife]

This is very interesting. I'm curious to hear more about the kids you've met who've had no clear focus after attending an Ivy. Can you tell me more?

I don't think it's based on anything more than pure stereotypes. I've been surrounded my entire life by graduates of Ivies and Ivy caliber universities and I'm calling B.S. on the stereotype of the burned-out kid who has no idea what to do after arriving at college. The Ivy graduates I know are incredibly self-driven and constantly challenging themselves to achieve new goals. Those goals could be personal, like completing a marathon or earning a pilot's license or finishing a novel for submission to the Amazon Breakthrough Novel Award contest, or the goals could be career-oriented like starting their own business.

 

You want to talk about the recent college grads I see drifting? Here's a hint: it's not the ones who attended Ivy caliber schools.

[Crimson Wife]

The reason I mentioned the Wissner-Gross book BTW was as a resource for discovering the kinds of opportunities that are out there. I grew up in a small town and there were a lot of cool opportunities I only found out about after I got to college and met classmates who had done them- when it was too late for me. I don't want my kids to have the same kind of regrets.

 

The way I personally use the Wissner-Gross book and also "Competitions for Talented Kids" by Frances Karnes & Tracy Riley is to hand them over to my DD and ask her which she thinks sound interesting.

[omd21]

I appreciate all of your responses. Having had positive experiences with the top school grads I have come across (I hate calling them elite schools) it's difficult for me to reconcile the notion of an overworked, lifeless kid who has only been finessed to look great on paper, with the examples I have met. On the other hand, I am very close with a teen who floundered in a small state uni that was not a good academic fit. There are stories of both positive and negative outcomes from all kinds of schools. This is a girl who could have easily gone to a top 30 college, but decided (or parents may have decided) to stay close instead, and is now headed back home, unhappy, after Freshman year. While I understand that there is more than one school that may be a great fit for one particular kid, I also think there is a risk in not choosing a place that is challenging enough. I'd love to believe that any child can land in any school that is below his academic level and make the best of the opportunitites he's given there, but I think that depends largely on how wide the gap is, the student's personality, his/her upbringing.

 

When dd first said to me: "I want to go to XYZ college", my first question was: "Why?" and she told me she just wants to go to college with people like her. (She was misunderstood in PS. Not one of her friends liked math, or homework, they thought she was weird.) Whether she ends up in XYZ or another place is not as important to me as making sure she ends up in a group of like-minded peers, because she's right.

 

I understand and sympathize about the concerns over being a guidance counselor!

Thank you for answering my original question, and offering words of comfort and reassurance. It turns out curriculum decisions were the easy part, the guidance counselor hat, not so much :)

[creekland]

While I understand that there is more than one school that may be a great fit for one particular kid, I also think there is a risk in not choosing a place that is challenging enough. I'd love to believe that any child can land in any school that is below his academic level and make the best of the opportunitites he's given there, but I think that depends largely on how wide the gap is, the student's personality, his/her upbringing.

 

When dd first said to me: "I want to go to XYZ college", my first question was: "Why?" and she told me she just wants to go to college with people like her. (She was misunderstood in PS. Not one of her friends liked math, or homework, they thought she was weird.) Whether she ends up in XYZ or another place is not as important to me as making sure she ends up in a group of like-minded peers, because she's right.

 

 

This IS the problem.  I've seen several students who went to places that underchallenged them (usually due to finances or geography) and they often come back wondering what's so great about college.  Many do their best and do well (succeeding in life), but wish they had had other opportunities that abound in different places.  As mentioned, one of middle son's peers is in this situation right now.  They talked about what they were doing over Christmas break.  Middle has oodles of options (for research and volunteering) and is taking advantage of them.  His peer has one option (for research and volunteering) and is taking advantage of it even though it's not what he particularly likes.  We are paying some for middle son's school having not even considered places like where his peer is going due to lack of opportunities.  His peer chose his school because he got a total free ride there.

 

I have no doubt that both will get into med school (their goals), but the path to get there is quite different.  The content of their classes is quite different.  Both cover the basics, but middle son's school goes into FAR more depth (at least for science and math classes - those I've compared).  Both colleges are similar sized, so it's not a case of larger/smaller.  Both have graduate programs, though middle son's school has more.  Middle son's school is ranked nationally at # 32.  His peer's school is ranked regionally in the thirties.

 

There's a huge difference in caliber.

 

Our top/driven students, when they visit some of the top colleges (not necessarily Top 20), always come back dreamy telling me they've found "their people" and always are basing that upon academics or research or similar.

 

It's just different.  When you've seen it happen time and time again - and visit the schools yourself - multiple schools... well, we were willing to pay for middle son's experience and opportunities (NOT talking about super high debt - total debt will come in around 25K - and we are paying some annually - not included in debt - we parents have no college loans - just payments).  For some, this is not worth it.  For us, it absolutely is.

 

We each need to decide, but to say there is "no difference in the colleges" is totally false.  It's also false to say that "only Top 20/30/50 - nationally" are the best.  "The best" depends upon student, major (esp major), goals, and fit.

 

There are close to 4000 degree granting colleges out there. I suspect the top couple hundred (5% or so) offer decent opportunities - pending student.  Even then, pending major, the "best" school might not be in the top couple hundred.  I just looked up Eckerd - where youngest is going - the school we believe to be "the" best for what he want to do (Tropical Marine Bio/Science).  They are ranked #141 in National LACs.  No regrets even if they might not make top couple hundred if all colleges were in the same category.

 

Again, YMMV. 

 

[Elisabet1]

Hey-sour grapes here.

 

Here's the link for the book Crimsonwife recommends: http://www.amazon.com/What-High-Schools-Other-Parents-ebook/dp/B000UB9NIE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1393810908&sr=8-1&keywords=what+high+schools+won%27t+tell+you

 

And here's an excerpt from the editor's review:

 

In order to succeed in the fiercely competitive college admissions game, you need a game plan—and you have to start young. In this empowering guide, Elizabeth Wissner- Gross, a nationally sought-after college “packager,†helps parents of seventh to tenth graders create a long-term plan that, come senior year, will allow their kids to virtually write their own ticket into their choice of schools.

 

Parents should start by helping their kids identify their academic passions, then design a four-year strategy based on those interests. The book details hundreds of opportunities available to make kids stand out that most high school guidance counselors and teachers simply don’t know about or don’t think to share.

 

I think this kind of book fits perfectly with the resume-building exercise I was describing earlier. The author is frank about the careful, 6 year long plan that parent and child must follow to build a resume worthy of an Ivy. And I still contend that anyone who is going to be successful at this exercise must be prepared to give up a lot in order to convince Stanford that their carefully developed and nurtured "passion" comes from the depths of their heart, not from an all-consuming plan to...develop a resume worthy of Stanford.

We visited private schools during our journey. We found that the ones who had large amounts of students going to elite schools also had an intense process that started in middle school. Everything was mapped out years in advance. There were multiple college guidance counselors working at the school to make sure each child would be competitive to secure admission to those top schools. It really is an intense process to get there. No one really just up and says in senior year, hey, I want to go to Princeton, and then actually gets in. Well, I am sure someone does, but that would be rare.

[Elisabet1]

For us, I think my daughter's lack of direction has been an issue. She has huge drive. Her resume would be able to get her in to so many schools. But she changes her mind about what she wants to do with the wind. I think I have a clue where she might end up, but if she knew from the beginning, it would have helped in this whole college search.

 

In the last year....linguistics, physics, chemistry, chemical engineer, civil engineer, mechanical engineer, materials engineer, French, oceanography, environment science, sustainability, economics, math (both applied and theoretical), doctor, and music. And she actually has the qualifications to have done well in any of these areas. But due to her constant uncertainty, in the last year or so, the ball as been dropped. She used to go to Interlochen. And locally, she studied with a top musician in her field and played for two orchestras. Math..she was on the GT track and in math honors society. She also has made great scores (winning at lower levels) in math UIL. French..she just took 1st place sweepstakes at a huge competition that included many districts and such in this part of the state. She also does volunteer work where she teaches science to kids during the summers and some spring breaks. She has also played for relief concerts and such. She will have 12 AP tests under her belt by graduation. It goes on and on. BUT..not knowing what she wants to do has seriously held her back. I have no clue why she cannot decide. But really, it has held her back big time.

[creekland]

We visited private schools during our journey. We found that the ones who had large amounts of students going to elite schools also had an intense process that started in middle school. Everything was mapped out years in advance. There were multiple college guidance counselors working at the school to make sure each child would be competitive to secure admission to those top schools. It really is an intense process to get there. No one really just up and says in senior year, hey, I want to go to Princeton, and then actually gets in. Well, I am sure someone does, but that would be rare.

 

The public high school I went to (a really good one) regularly sent kids to Top 20 schools.  We were separated off in 7th grade and tracked accordingly.

 

Since I finished 2nd in my class, they were very disappointed that I picked an out of state public (Virginia Tech) as my "final" destination - esp since I'd been accepted to Duke.  (They were also disappointed that Duke was the only high level school I applied to.)  One teacher outright told me, "What a waste..."  Kids lower than I finished went to places like MIT...

 

Such is life.  I have no regrets.  I met hubby at VT and had a great time.  ;)  I'd have done well at Duke too I suspect, but we couldn't afford it.  In hindsight, I picked the colleges I applied to for very shallow reasons - I was AFROTC and wanted VT's Corps of Cadets for the lifestyle.  Again - no regrets.  I had a great time.  Each student has to find their niche/fit.

 

[Gwen in VA]

"No one really just up and says in senior year, hey, I want to go to Princeton, and then actually gets in. "

 

i have to disagree with that statement. For some kids, excelling is who they are and what they do. Some activities just lend themselves to excelling in the national arena. Some parents can give these kids the support they need -- and voila, an Ivy Leagues acceptance falls into their lap.

 

Did those kids "work" at getting accepted? Yes, but only in the same way that the sun works at rising in the East. It is who they are.

[Muttichen]

For us, I think my daughter's lack of direction has been an issue. She has huge drive. Her resume would be able to get her in to so many schools. But she changes her mind about what she wants to do with the wind. I think I have a clue where she might end up, but if she knew from the beginning, it would have helped in this whole college search.

 

In the last year....linguistics, physics, chemistry, chemical engineer, civil engineer, mechanical engineer, materials engineer, French, oceanography, environment science, sustainability, economics, math (both applied and theoretical), doctor, and music. And she actually has the qualifications to have done well in any of these areas. But due to her constant uncertainty, in the last year or so, the ball as been dropped. She used to go to Interlochen. And locally, she studied with a top musician in her field and played for two orchestras. Math..she was on the GT track and in math honors society. She also has made great scores (winning at lower levels) in math UIL. French..she just took 1st place sweepstakes at a huge competition that included many districts and such in this part of the state. She also does volunteer work where she teaches science to kids during the summers and some spring breaks. She has also played for relief concerts and such. She will have 12 AP tests under her belt by graduation. It goes on and on. BUT..not knowing what she wants to do has seriously held her back. I have no clue why she cannot decide. But really, it has held her back big time.

 

Your dd sounds a lot like my middle dd, and maybe my youngest dd as well.  Part of the problem for my youngest (10th grade) at least, is that she loves math and is really good at it, but she wants a more "people-focused" career.  She told me, "Mom, I love computer programming.  It's one of my favorite things to do, but I would hate to have to do it as a job.  I couldn't stand just sitting there by myself, staring at a screen and debugging all day." I told her that's fine, but it won't hurt to keep improving her programming skills.  It's something she likes to do and if she's ever in a pinch, it will pay the bills.  For now, I want her to excel in all her subjects.  She doesn't need to specialize while she's in high school.

 

I don't think it's a problem at all to start college without a clear direction.  Middle dd is a junior at Princeton and is just now figuring it out.  She started out by fulfilling most of her distribution requirements (courses in different areas) and gradually settled on psychology as what she likes best.  She's still not completely sure what she's going to do after college, whether she'll go straight to grad school or do something else, but she is applying for summer internships and hopefully her experience there will help to solidify her goals.

[8filltheheart]

This IS the problem. I've seen several students who went to places that underchallenged them (usually due to finances or geography) and they often come back wondering what's so great about college. Many do their best and do well (succeeding in life), but wish they had had other opportunities that abound in different places. .....

 

There's a huge difference in caliber.......

 

Our top/driven students, when they visit some of the top colleges (not necessarily Top 20), always come back dreamy telling me they've found "their people" and always are basing that upon academics or research or similar......

 

It's just different. When you've seen it happen time and time again - and visit the schools yourself - multiple schools... well, we were willing to pay for middle son's experience and opportunities (NOT talking about super high debt - total debt will come in around 25K - and we are paying some annually - not included in debt - we parents have no college loans - just payments). For some, this is not worth it.......

 

We each need to decide, but to say there is "no difference in the colleges" is totally false.

 

I agree with this. It is what we faced this time around during the college application process with our ds. It is simple reality to say that he is not your typical high school student. He is a great kid and a hard worker and will fit in anywhere simply bc that is the type of person he is. BUT, the times he has really, really thrived has been at academic camps amg kids that are truly his peers in most ways......intellectually, interests, serious students, age. He has come home beaming and you can see a tangible difference in him. The camp he went to last summer did academics 6 hrs a day with hours upon hr of homework to complete afterward before the next day's session. He loved every minute of it.

 

We really wanted him to be able to have a similar opportunity at college. But the competition for the scholarships that would have made it feasible is fierce. He hasn't heard back on 3 of them and won't until April 1, but we have pretty much figured he won't win any of them.

 

Yes, this ds would excel in that type of environment. But so,would our 15 yr dd who is equally as strong of a student, if not more so in her own way. A MINIMUM of $100,000 debt (at some of the schools it is more like $160,000)for 4 yrs of school for him, followed by that again for our 15 yr old......what about the younger kids? (We have managed to help our older kids without incurring huge debt) Do we take on repeated debt load after repeated debt load for them to have that type of experience at the expense of our own financial stability? If it was simply a matter of funding it, the question and answer would be different. But that isn't the real picture. Reality is by funding it, what would we have to give up bc there is only so much $$ to meet the current needs of 9 people.

 

So, for our family, we are very aware that,yes, institutions are different and so are the caliber of students attending and the classes offered. So how can we reconcile the differences? We are hoping to meet that need via select honors program opportunities. Ds felt the kids he meet there were his authentic peers (we aren't unique in the financial situation we are in. It is the reality of a lot of people. :) ) seeking out the best options within an affordable school is our ds's reality.

 

Thing is.....our ds hasn't been the one stressing over it. I have been. He has said from the beginning that he would be perfectly happy wherever and that he would make it work. And, I have finally realized that I have been making myself crazy over nothing and that he is absolutely right.

 

Eta: I hate autocorrect. Some of the corrections are just ridiculous.

[Nan in Mass]

From what I have seen, most parents and teachers suggest opportunities to students to keep them from running amok lol.  The top students have an endless amount of energy and some of them have a huge amount of inventiveness.  Most adults I know, faced with that from a teen with few responsibilities, have at least a few good ideas of where all that energy could be spent lol.

 

Nan

[creekland]

So, for our family, we are very aware that,yes, institutions are different and so are the caliber of students attending and the classes offered. So how can we reconcile the differences? We are hoping to meet that need via select honors program opportunities. Ds felt the kids he meet there were his authentic peers (we aren't unique in the financial situation we are in. It is the reality of a lot of people. :) ) seeking out the best options within an affordable school is our ds's reality.

 

 

Personally... I think your safety is just fine.  ;)  It's way above the caliber of middle son's peer's choice, esp with their Honors options.  Middle son used the school as a safety himself - not knowing if other schools would be affordable.  It ended up lower on his list mainly because they don't offer the major he really wanted, but if it had been the only affordable option he'd have switched majors (since major isn't important for pre-med) and would have done well.  IMO, no school is worth super high debt, esp when there are other, very worthy, options.

[Muttichen]

Eight -- I don't know your financial situation, but we've gotten amazing need-based aid and we are solidly middle class.  Neither we nor our kids have had to take any loans.

 

I know your son has already applied, but I want other people to understand that they shouldn't be afraid to aim for top schools because of the price.  They give very generous financial aid to families making up to 200K per year.  Our kids have gotten various merit scholarships, but so far no offer has beaten the need-based aid we've gotten from the Ivies.