Kids Aiming High - College and the SAT

[Connections]

I have a sincere question.

 

My children are at the beginning of high school but I have always thought that we would figure out what we could provide each of our children to help them pay for college and then they would incur any additional debt based on their school of choice. Of course, we plan to prepare them to make that decision and we plan to advise them. But ultimately, we plan to have them both make the final decision as to the school and the debt and to take the debt on themselves.

 

My career before homeschooling would have enabled me to pay the way for all three of my children (likely at any school they chose). When I gave up that career to homeschool them, I also gave up the financial ability to pay their way.

 

I am not in touch with the financial decisions of others who have children in college- if my children take on debt in college will they be in the minority? Are most parents paying the way for their children or taking debt on themselves?

 

 

[8filltheheart]

I have a sincere question.

 

My children are at the beginning of high school but I have always thought that we would figure out what we could provide each of our children to help them pay for college and then they would incur any additional debt based on their school of choice. Of course, we plan to prepare them to make that decision and we plan to advise them. But ultimately, we plan to have them both make the final decision as to the school and the debt and to take the debt on themselves.

 

My career before homeschooling would have enabled me to pay the way for all three of my children (likely at any school they chose). When I gave up that career to homeschool them, I also gave up the financial ability to pay their way.

 

I am not in touch with the financial decisions of others who have children in college- if my children take on debt in college will they be in the minority? Are most parents paying the way for their children or taking debt on themselves?

 

The way the student loan system works is that the maximum loan amt students may borrow ranges from $5500 (freshman) to $7500 (jrs and srs).   So there is no way for the debt to belong to them unless they can get unsubsidized loans without co-signing.  

 

And Muttichen, ds did not apply to one of the 8 Ivies.   He applied to top schools, but he couldn't see himself at an Ivy.   And, no, my dh's income is no where near the threshold you posted.  But, at some schools they expect our contribution to be full pay.   I have no idea how they arrived at that decision unless they totally ignored our CSS and our discussions with them.   We moved and our relocation package included a stop loss on our house that we sold. That money was reported as income on taxes but had to be completely invested in our new home purchase per company policy.   We submitted the paperwork indicating as much.   Even so, we didn't meet the threshold.

[Connections]

The way the student loan system works is that the maximum loan amt students may borrow ranges from $5500 (freshman) to $7500 (jrs and srs).   So there is no way for the debt to belong to them unless they can get unsubsidized loans without co-signing.  

 

 

Thanks, 8. There is obviously a whole world of research I have still to embark upon! I had no idea there was such a limit.

[Crimson Wife]

Your dd sounds a lot like my middle dd, and maybe my youngest dd as well.  Part of the problem for my youngest (10th grade) at least, is that she loves math and is really good at it, but she wants a more "people-focused" career.  She told me, "Mom, I love computer programming.  It's one of my favorite things to do, but I would hate to have to do it as a job.  I couldn't stand just sitting there by myself, staring at a screen and debugging all day." I told her that's fine, but it won't hurt to keep improving her programming skills.  It's something she likes to do and if she's ever in a pinch, it will pay the bills.  For now, I want her to excel in all her subjects.  She doesn't need to specialize while she's in high school.

A fellow mom with an autistic child recently told me about Aldebaran Robotics' NAO project that is developing robots to help kids with autism. http://www.aldebaran-robotics.com/en/Solutions/For-Autism/The-Ask-NAO-initiative.html

 

My DS had previously talked about wanting to invent a robot to help his little sister so we spent the better part of an evening exploring the NAO project website. I would love to see him have a career where he uses his love of robotics to help make this world a better place.

 

ETA: I recently saw a very interesting TED talk by this professor who is using computer science to design more realistic voices for patients with speech disorders: http://www.cadlab.neu.edu/people.php?name=rupal_patel

[creekland]

Thanks, 8. There is obviously a whole world of research I have still to embark upon! I had no idea there was such a limit.

 

One good thing to do is find a college cost estimator for your income and run it.  It will provide you with a number that is called your EFC (Expected Financial Contribution).  Here's one:

 

http://www.finaid.org/calculators/finaidestimate.phtml

 

IF your EFC is affordable, then look for schools that provide good need-based aid.  At some schools (just a few), that aid won't include loans.  Some of the Ivies are in there and it's part of what makes them popular.  At most (good need-based aid) schools, they'll expect the student to take on those basic student loans, then will provide the rest in grants.  Beware that those top aid schools often actually calculate need off a different form - the CSS Profile - so google that too to see what comes up. 

 

Other schools will expect Parent Loans as part of the package.  That's where you need to beware as those can really add up and they are loans, not grants.  If a student could get loans on their own, I guess you could substitute that, but most students don't have what it takes to get extra loans without a co-signer.

 

URoc (where middle son goes) is close to a 100% need-based aid school.  We pay our contribution (affordable to us), and middle son takes on the basic student loans.

 

Oldest's school (Covenant) also worked out for us, but I'm not sure if it does for all.

 

Youngest's we're still waiting on.

 

If your EFC is not affordable, it's best to check out merit aid schools.  For students with high stats, the University of Alabama has some great merit aid AND an Honors program that is up-and-coming and doing well.  It's a great safety school with some students liking it even better than traditional "good school" counterparts.  Alabama (and alumni) are tossing in a good bit of money in order to move up in the rankings and it's paying off.  I highly recommend at least checking them out.

 

Otherwise, many schools THAT good with merit aid tend to be competitive (rather than automatic) and competition is FIERCE.  Don't depend upon it, but feel free to try for it.  (Middle son got a nice merit aid award from URoc too, but by itself, it wouldn't have been affordable to us.)

 

Or, schools THAT good with merit aid tend to be a bit lower caliber than the students who qualify for the super awards.  This is the case where my son's peer goes.

 

We opted against heading lower caliber to get a free ride even though there are quite a few schools he could have chosen.  That's just a personal decision in that we value the opportunities for the cost.

 

[1Togo]

Also, take a look at the Harding family from Alabama.  Their older children started college at age 12. 

[Muttichen]

A fellow mom with an autistic child recently told me about Aldebaran Robotics' NAO project that is developing robots to help kids with autism. http://www.aldebaran-robotics.com/en/Solutions/For-Autism/The-Ask-NAO-initiative.html

 

My DS had previously talked about wanting to invent a robot to help his little sister so we spent the better part of an evening exploring the NAO project website. I would love to see him have a career where he uses his love of robotics to help make this world a better place.

 

ETA: I recently saw a very interesting TED talk by this professor who is using computer science to design more realistic voices for patients with speech disorders: http://www.cadlab.neu.edu/people.php?name=rupal_patel

Thanks -- I will definitely share this with my dd.  I might even see a science fair project along these lines in her future...

 

Creekland -- I completely understand!  If my kids had chosen one of the mid-level schools they were accepted at, we would never have been able to afford it.  The EFC is completely insane, especially considering that we have six kids!  I just like to share our experience with aid at the Ivies in case people aren't aware.  I'd hate to see a qualified kid decide not to apply because of the price tag.

[Barbara H]

 She told me, "Mom, I love computer programming.  It's one of my favorite things to do, but I would hate to have to do it as a job.  I couldn't stand just sitting there by myself, staring at a screen and debugging all day." I told her that's fine, but it won't hurt to keep improving her programming skills.  It's something she likes to do and if she's ever in a pinch, it will pay the bills. 

 

It sounds like she has a lot of talents and could do different things, but I just wanted to note that people who can combine tech skills with people skills can rule the world. If she can understand the technology and be the bridge between geeks who want to be in front of the computer screen all day and people who do not get tech - she will have a very exciting range of opportunities.

[Barbara H]

I am not in touch with the financial decisions of others who have children in college- if my children take on debt in college will they be in the minority? Are most parents paying the way for their children or taking debt on themselves?

 

Here are the averages...  about 2/3 of students take on student loan debt. The average student debt at graduation is around $25,000.

 

Where some families get into trouble is with Parent Plus loans which allow parents to borrow crazy amounts (up to the full cost of attendance) with basically no assessment of whether or not they could pay it back.

[FaithManor]

Here are the averages...  about 2/3 of students take on student loan debt. The average student debt at graduation is around $25,000.

 

Where some families get into trouble is with Parent Plus loans which allow parents to borrow crazy amounts (up to the full cost of attendance) with basically no assessment of whether or not they could pay it back.

And Sallie Mae non guaranteed, non secure loans for students. There are students out there with a hundred grand in Sallie Mae loans at interest rates that top 14% sometimes. The students, if not properly trained at home in the art of understanding legal documents, are not often aware that they are signing for such a loan. These get slipped in other  financial aid and scholarship forms and the student is pressured to sign them all very quickly.  The Art institute of  Philadelphia was highlighted in several articles last year for this particular practice.

 

Sallie Mae is very heavy handed when it comes time to pay up. So everyone should talk to their kids about this , teach them to read legal documents, and tell them not to sign anything with a bank or lending institution name on it without consulting you first. Some schools take kick backs from Sallie Mae for signing students up for their loans so it is a money maker for the school. As far as I can tell, it isn't widespread with most schools being above board. But, it is wise to teach young adults to be on guard for predatory loan practices and to think wisely about the payment size they will be able to handle upon graduation.

[Elisabet1]

I appreciate all of your responses. Having had positive experiences with the top school grads I have come across (I hate calling them elite schools) it's difficult for me to reconcile the notion of an overworked, lifeless kid who has only been finessed to look great on paper, with the examples I have met. On the other hand, I am very close with a teen who floundered in a small state uni that was not a good academic fit. There are stories of both positive and negative outcomes from all kinds of schools. This is a girl who could have easily gone to a top 30 college, but decided (or parents may have decided) to stay close instead, and is now headed back home, unhappy, after Freshman year. While I understand that there is more than one school that may be a great fit for one particular kid, I also think there is a risk in not choosing a place that is challenging enough. I'd love to believe that any child can land in any school that is below his academic level and make the best of the opportunitites he's given there, but I think that depends largely on how wide the gap is, the student's personality, his/her upbringing.

 

When dd first said to me: "I want to go to XYZ college", my first question was: "Why?" and she told me she just wants to go to college with people like her. (She was misunderstood in PS. Not one of her friends liked math, or homework, they thought she was weird.) Whether she ends up in XYZ or another place is not as important to me as making sure she ends up in a group of like-minded peers, because she's right.

 

 

Thank you for answering my original question, and offering words of comfort and reassurance. It turns out curriculum decisions were the easy part, the guidance counselor hat, not so much :)

"Elite schools" is a specific term to specific schools actually. I would consider Swarthmore to be elite, while U of Michigan, which is a top school, would not be "elite." Obviously, the entire Ivy League would be elite. But I would consider many schools to be top schools, while not elite. Stanford would be elite, but UT Austin, a hard to get in to school that ranks well, would be maybe a top school.

[Crimson Wife]

"Elite schools" is a specific term to specific schools actually. I would consider Swarthmore to be elite, while U of Michigan, which is a top school, would not be "elite." Obviously, the entire Ivy League would be elite. But I would consider many schools to be top schools, while not elite. Stanford would be elite, but UT Austin, a hard to get in to school that ranks well, would be maybe a top school.

This is going to be a personal opinion thing. I would consider the "Public Ivies" like U of M-Ann Arbor, UC Berkeley, and UT-Austin to be more elite for non-residents than the 2nd tier LAC's like Swarthmore, Middlebury, Bates, etc. Those are good schools but not in the same league IMHO as the "little Ivies" like Amherst, Williams, Wesleyan, etc.

 

My mom got into several of the top LAC's and "Seven Sisters" schools but did not get into UC Berkeley as a non-resident. She had to go to UC Riverside for a year to establish California residency and then transfer to Berkeley.

[LibraryLover]

 Middlebury is crazy competitive. One has a better shot at Harvard, odds-wise.

 

Colleges are also seeking geographic diversity to a much greater degree than they have in the past. A kid on the west coast may have a better chance being accepted to a school on the east coast, all things being equal. The UC system is highly competitive.  And because out-of-staters pay full tuition, even the brightest in-state kids can be at a disadvantage. Yes, CA has to admit a certain number of in-state students, but they are hungry for the money out-of-state and international students bring. 

 

Many US colleges and universities are heavily recruiting in Asian countries, Middle Eastern countries etc. Anywhere the money is, basically, and where they don't have to worry about aid packages.

 

Nothing is as it once was.

 

 

[Teachin'Mine]

17.2% of applicants accepted to Middlebury vs 6.05% accepted to Harvard.  But yes 17% is still highly competitive.

 

 

[SeaConquest]

This is going to be a personal opinion thing. I would consider the "Public Ivies" like U of M-Ann Arbor, UC Berkeley, and UT-Austin to be more elite for non-residents than the 2nd tier LAC's like Swarthmore, Middlebury, Bates, etc. Those are good schools but not in the same league IMHO as the "little Ivies" like Amherst, Williams, Wesleyan, etc.

 

My mom got into several of the top LAC's and "Seven Sisters" schools but did not get into UC Berkeley as a non-resident. She had to go to UC Riverside for a year to establish California residency and then transfer to Berkeley.

Swarthmore is second tier? Isn't it ranked in the top 3?

[creekland]

Swarthmore is second tier? Isn't it ranked in the top 3?

 

It's currently ranked #3 among National LACs with a 14% acceptance rate.

 

Personally, no one I know of considers it second tier... esp USNews voters.

 

By comparison:

 

Amherst is #2 with a 13% acceptance rate.

 

Williams is #1 with a 17% acceptance rate.

 

Wesleyan is #17 with a 21% acceptance rate.

 

As Crimsonwife said - it's all a personal thing when one decides which schools are "elite" and which aren't.

 

None of my guys had an interest in any of those schools, so I know little about them (except Swarthmore since it's relatively local).

 

 

[LibraryLover]

17.2% of applicants accepted to Middlebury vs 6.05% accepted to Harvard.  But yes 17% is still highly competitive.

 

 

Ok. I swear I read different numbers about 5 years ago.

[Teachin'Mine]

Ok. I swear I read different numbers about 5 years ago.

 

Even with the percent admitted, it could feel like it's harder to get into Middlebury as the comparative number of students admitted is so small.  Harvard obviously has a much larger freshman class.

 

When the percent admitted is less than 20%, they're all hard to get into!

[Barbara H]

Even with the percent admitted, it could feel like it's harder to get into Middlebury as the comparative number of students admitted is so small.  Harvard obviously has a much larger freshman class.

 

 

 

Crazy thing but they actually accept a pretty similar number of students - Harvard around 2,000 and Middlebury about 1,500. It is just that Harvard's yield is very high - a small percentage of students turn them down.  For sure though, all of these schools are hard to get into!

[Teachin'Mine]

Crazy thing but they actually accept a pretty similar number of students - Harvard around 2,000 and Middlebury about 1,500. It is just that Harvard's yield is very high - a small percentage of students turn them down.  For sure though, all of these schools are hard to get into!

 

You're right.  I didn't consider yield affecting the number who were given acceptances 1563 vs 2188.  

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

One other thing to keep in mind--

 

all the focus and prepping for "Harvard" has an inevitable consequence.  Some of the folks that prepare aren't going to be admitted.  While we talk about prepping our kids for this possibility we also need to prep ourselves.  I think parents can get very wrapped up in where their kids are admitted and what that says about them as parents.  Somehow I suspect, as homeschooling parents, it could be worse for us since we devote so much of our own lives to our kids and their education.  I also have to remind myself that if my kid doesn't get admitted to Harvard (or doesn't even want to go there) it doesn't mean I did a bad job for the last 13 years; the situation is far more complex and nuanced that the black and white of acceptance to the nation's top universities.

 

Or in other words-don't neglect to consider the emotions and responses of the parent educator.  At the end of the day we will have to deal with not just our students' feelings but our own.

 

ETA: Sorry-I don't mean the above to sound negative, or imply that you shouldn't try for Harvard, or that there is no happiness outside of ivy covered walls---I just mean that we need to remember ourselves during all of this.  I don't want to set myself up to have my own self worth hang on my kids' admission to an elite academic institution.  I hope that makes sense.

[creekland]

I don't want to set myself up to have my own self worth hang on my kids' admission to an elite academic institution.  I hope that makes sense.

 

It makes perfect sense and I believe it happens relatively often to be honest.  Over on college confidential, each year there are students who come on saying mom/dad want me to apply/go to ______, but "I" really don't want to go there (whether Top 20 or Alma mater or wherever).  The general suggestion to them is to go ahead and apply - then in their interview, let the interviewer know they don't really want to attend.  In spite of stats and ecs, etc, they end up not being admitted.  ;)  Some parents just aren't willing to listen to their kids because they, themselves, have set the bar and want to live through their kids.

 

When the kid leads and is self-motivated, then high level schools are right.  When parents lead, I don't feel the same way.  There are many good schools out there and success can come from literally any college.  IMO, the parent ought to let the student know about and see the various paths (how else would a student know about them?), but the person actually walking the path should decide which one they wish to take (pending finances for some of them, but other than that...).

 

[shawthorne44]

Another thing to keep in mind, it isn't just a matter of getting to the school.  The child then has to keep up with the other kids that also into the same school.  

I have a friend who went to MIT.  He is brilliant if a bit pedantic.  He got a not remotely technical degree there because in his own words "He discovered he wasn't smart enough for Physics at MIT"   I've wondered if he wouldn't have been better off at a college one notch down.  

[regentrude]

One other thing to keep i  I don't want to set myself up to have my own self worth hang on my kids' admission to an elite academic institution.  I hope that makes sense.

Makes perfect sense, and I am right there with you.

I know that I have done my best to prepare DD for success at an academic institution of high caliber. I am content with that knowledge. Whether she gets admitted is beyond my, and her, control, and whether she wants to go if she does is her choice.

We had this conversation a few times; she has asked whether it would be OK to decide to go elsewhere - and DH and I have assured her that would absolutely be OK. It's HER college.

I do not draw my self-worth from having a bumper sticker "My kid goes to xyz fancy elite college".( In fact, I would most definitely not put a bumper sticker on my car... because that would not be my accomplishment.)