Rachel Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 I'm curious about the changing meanings of words. Recently my 6 year old son was reading to me while I was working in the kitchen, and read the word "faggot", I assumed he had mispronounced a word, so I reread the paragraph and realized that he had pronounced the word correctly. I immediately knew the word had a meaning I was not familiar with, it took a bit of searching online before I found the original meaning, sticks of wood tied together and used as fuel in a fire. I was a bit surprised but it was an older book, so I explained that the word also had an offensive meaning we don't use in our family. Our family just finished listening to The Magician's Nephew by C.S. Lewis and both my husband and I have been surprised by the use of a$$ and d@mn. The words were used a dozen or so times. As far as I know d@mn has always been considered a curse word although I think many people don't find it as offensive as some other curse words. I know that a$$ can also refer to a donkey, but in this book it was used as name calling. When I come across curse words in children's literature, I usually think the book was probably written for children older than my own. However, C.S. Lewis was a Christian and I have heard that The Chronicles of Narnia stories are based on biblical stories (I know that has been debated, I do not know what Lewis said about this and this is my first time through the series). As a Christian, I know some Christians curse, but I do think that Christians in general think cursing is wrong and try to avoid it. Have the meanings of those words changed over time? Are/were those words considered cursing in the UK? Would those words have been offensive at the time these books were written (1950s)? What is a good resource for learning about the history of individual words or how they are used differently in different countries? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barb_ Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 I seem to remember Roald Dahl using them too. Conventions change, and apparently in 1950's England, ass and damn were colorful as opposed to offensive language. Faggot just meant exactly that, a bundle of sticks. My mom remembers cigarettes referred to as fags back in the 50s and early 60s in the south. Also, pretty sure that overseas ass just means acting stupid and stubborn like a donkey. Arse is the vulgar word over there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsabelC Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Great topic. I love this kind of thing :) Yes ass does mean donkey, and it can be used rudely, but it is a mild insult, not equivalent to a curse/swear word but more on the level of "you silly", or maybe "don't be a pig" if your child is eating with really bad manners. Around here you might also hear "arse!" which roughly means "bother!" and is only considered rude by the more delicate types of person (as in, it's the kind of thing I'd let the kids say but remind them that they probably shouldn't say it to their teacher). I don't remember your D word in Narnia (and I really should, since I have a Narnia-obsessed child who has listened to the entire seven volumes at least 10 times!) - where was it? (I'm assuming you didn't just hear the bit about the beavers' dam when you weren't concentrating?!). Not sure about the UK, but that word certainly isn't considered rude by 99% of Australians. Oh just remembered, Uncle Andrew kept calling the witch "dem fine woman" didn't he? When I was a kid in the 70s and 80s, fags meant cigarettes and there was even a type of candy by that name that was basically cigarettes made out of sugar. When it became illegal to promote smoking, they changed the name to Fads, but I don't think they're popular now. It's fascinating how language evolves, though. I am reading Huck Finn out loud again and I still find it hard to get that particular N word out - I keep feeling that the Inappropriate Language Police will swoop in and get me :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Remember that C.S. Lewis was English. That does make a difference. "Ass" isn't only used to refer to a donkey; if you'll notice the context of its use in the Magician's Nephew, you'll see that it isn't used as a swear word, nor is it name calling in the way that you'd call someone stupid. I read it aloud just as it is, without commenting, and we were all just fine. Ditto with "faggot." I don't think my children had ever heard the word used any other way. We didn't flinch over "damn," either. C.S. Lewis was a Christian, but the Chronicles of Narnia were not based on Bible stories. He started by thinking to himself what it might be like if there was another world that didn't know Jesus, but who knew who still made Himself known in that world (or something along those lines). And don't tell me you started with the Magician's Nephew first!!!! :svengo: You're supposed to read The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe first, because you should always enter Narnia for the first time through the wardrobe. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barb_ Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 This brings to mind the word idiot. That's another word that is thrown around quite a bit in children's literature of the period (as well as in the original 101 dalmatians). To me, the word sounds offensive, particularly coming out of a child's mouth. Now when I hear it, I think of something closer to moron or retard but back then it seemed to be a perfectly acceptable alternative to the word fool or even doofus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llifeon18wheels Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Keep in mind, we are hearing through experienced adult ears and they have no clue what the word has come to mean now. How could they, right? My daughter has read words like gay and queer in previous books. So, these obviously meant different things before recent decades. She started using queer in a correct manner about things that were questionable and suspicious (dictionary definition) and when I heard her say it, it gave me a reason to discuss it with her. BUT, she said it in context correctly so I want to be careful to explain why it would be offensive or odd to a stranger if they didn't understand what she was meaning. She wasn't wrong for using the word, it's just that times have changed. In the same case, authors used words known to THEM and if they meant something else back when it was written, we shouldn't over sensationalize the word. Right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pod's mum Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 We have a book of collected old nursery rhymes (maybe an Oppies?) and there is one that refers to a lass who doesn't sweep up or make her bed as a sl~t. The original meaning was number 2 of this..." a. A person, especially a woman, considered sexually promiscuous. b. A woman prostitute. 2. A slovenly woman; a slattern." Interesting that it changes from not making your bed to indiscriminately 'unmaking' it. In My Fair Lady the original line that shocked was Eliza's, "Not blooming likely." But it had to be upgraded to shouting at a race horse to, "Move your blooming arse!" (From memory, feel free to correct.) I'm another who grew up with fags being smoked, or 'bummed off' other smokers and poofs being stuffed foot-cushions. We didn't have 'the N word' that Dr Dolittle uses, it Australia it is a B word, but I rarely heard it as a kid or now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pod's mum Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 I am reminded of an old post here about someone's teenaged ds who was being tested by peers on swear words and was excited when he knew one. The German Philosopher. But they hadn't said "Kant". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsabelC Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Yep, the correct German pronunciation of the philosopher's name is actually the one that we want to avoid our kid's using. I gather the polite thing to do in English speaking countries is to change it to Can't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pod's mum Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 There's another, you use f@nny for bum, where in Australia it means, well, back to that German Philosopher again. "Emanuel Kant was a real piss ant and very rarely stable" Sorry, I have Pythonitis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsabelC Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Go Monty Python :hurray: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nart Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Last week I started reading to my kids "Babe: the Gallant Pig" and the word "b@tch" comes up a few times to refer to the female dog. While I know it is accurate I hadn't heard it used that way in quite a while so it surprised me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Yes: ass means donkey or 'foolish person'. When Brits want to say backside they say 'arse'. 'Damn' is very commonly used - I wouldn't be surprised to see it in a book for older children. Just an FYI: the habits required of Christians of different denominations and in different countries are not going to be the same. As one example: I had no idea, until I came across the idea on these boards, that there were Christians who felt that abstinence from alcohol was preferable for religious reasons. All the Christians I know in the UK drink moderately (unless they just don't like the taste). L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Have the meanings of those words changed over time? "Faggot" appears in Jemima Puddle Duck. "Bitch" is the traditional word for a female dog -- it normally appears on pedigreed dogs' paperwork. "Cock" seems to be preferred in British works over "rooster." CAP's writing program advocate the resumption of the use of the word "ass." I think that's the funniest thing I've read in a homeschooling or other textbook recently. "Ass" used as name calling does reference the donkey, not a hind end. Quite a few old children's books, including by E. Nesbit, make casual use "nigger," including but not limited to a reference to the color black. I too have encountered "slut" in various fairy tale collections, perhaps Andrew Lang's. I personally have found these two more morally troubling than the use of the word "ass." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 I too have encountered "slut" in various fairy tale collections, perhaps Andrew Lang's. I personally have found these two more morally troubling than the use of the word "ass." When I was younger, 'slut' to mean someone who didn't care about housekeeping was a common usage in the UK. A feminist journalist wrote a column in the Sixties about being a slut. Apparently, in Chaucer it is used (of a man) to mean 'untidy'. In the UK the usage has shifted so that the the sexual meaning is the dominant one. A politician recently got in trouble for talking about 'sluts who didn't clean behind the fridge'. I'm pretty sure that he had the older meaning in mind, but he got into trouble anyway. L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 When I was younger, 'slut' to mean someone who didn't care about housekeeping was a common usage in the UK. .... A politician recently got in trouble for talking about 'sluts who didn't clean behind the fridge'. I'm pretty sure that he had the older meaning in mind, but he got into trouble anyway. Oh my. Well anyway, while it was somewhat obvious from the fairy tale that the meaning was not specifically about sexual morality, I did not like to have my young daughter reading it or feeling that "slut" was a suitable word to describe women. Calling an irritating person an "ass," or a female dog a "bitch" don't cause the same sort of feeling of repulsion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheryl in CA Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Years ago (probably around 13 years or so ago) when my oldest children were maybe K and 1st grade age I was reading something to them and it had something about a person tying faggots to his horse (might have said a$$, that I don't remember) with leather thongs. Since I was reading it I just changed the words to reflect the intended meaning and died laughing later. I wish I could remember where it was that we read it. As they got older and read things for themselves we discussed them and, depending on the word, might use alternative words if reading out loud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Here's a poem (I found it in the Art-Literature Readers, Primer level) that I shared in another thread once: The Boys by Oliver Wendell Holmes Yes, we're boys,—always playing with tongue or with pen,— And I sometimes have asked,—Shall we ever be men? Shall we always be youthful, and laughing and gay, Till the last dear companion drops smiling away? The dear companions dropping, while smiling away gives me the creeps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommymilkies Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 I don't even blink reading some of these. My kids read mostly British literature and watch British shows, so they don't blink, either. But they do yell at me if I say "crap". Sigh. Anyway, I do bring up the changing meanings of these words with the kids when I read some of the more offensive ones. "Queer" is one I've never commented on, though, because we read them a lot in poetry. I did point out that it means "happy," and they know LGBT people and know all about the political and social issues right now. So maybe they think all LGBT are happy or vice versa. I guess I should ask them. lol Thanks to Harry Potter, my kids ran around yelling "Bloody Hell" a lot when they were little. :leaving: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amy M Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 I also think of The Scarlet Pimpernel's poem, ending with, "...that demmed elusive pimpernel!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indian summer Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 When dd was doing sequential spelling today on the computer I was very surprised to hear the voice ask her to spell boner. Here this is a slang word for an erection. I'm not sure where the developer(s) of this program originate, but from the sentence using the word, I'm guessing it means a dumb mistake. Is this an acceptable word for a little girl to hear where you live? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 When dd was doing sequential spelling today on the computer I was very surprised to hear the voice ask her to spell boner. Here this is a slang word for an erection. I have only heard it used as you have. I have never heard anyone use it to mean a goofy mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeachyDoodle Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Yep, the correct German pronunciation of the philosopher's name is actually the one that we want to avoid our kid's using. I gather the polite thing to do in English speaking countries is to change it to Can't. Unless you're in the American South, where the word you're referring to is frequently pronounced "caint" -- which I'm pretty sure is not an accepted pronunciation of his name. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reign Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 When dd was doing sequential spelling today on the computer I was very surprised to hear the voice ask her to spell boner. Here this is a slang word for an erection. I'm not sure where the developer(s) of this program originate, but from the sentence using the word, I'm guessing it means a dumb mistake. Is this an acceptable word for a little girl to hear where you live? I know it used to mean a dumb mistake thanks to Family Ties the 80's tv show. Mike (Kirk Camreon) had a best friend named Richard Milhous Stabone better known as "Boner" who was always making mistakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Yep, the correct German pronunciation of the philosopher's name is actually the one that we want to avoid our kid's using. I gather the polite thing to do in English speaking countries is to change it to Can't. Huh? It is "polite" to mispronounce a person's name? That's just bizarre. It would be clear form the context that the word refers to the philosopher's name and not the other meaning. (Now, mispronouncing names of non-English origin is a pet peeve of mine... while people elsewhere try very hard to pronounce American names and places as close as they can to the original, the same courtesy is not extended to foreign places and people names) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 "boner" -- have seen it used in older books as well to indicate "enormous mistake" "fag" -- one of my friends from the uk got in trouble not that long ago, while working in the us, when he said he was going outside for a fag break. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommy22alyns Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 I am giving Rebecca a little more detailed sex education, and I had to explain gay. Well, she seriously, honestly, thought that happy was the only meaning! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 "fag" -- one of my friends from the uk got in trouble not that long ago, while working in the us, when he said he was going outside for a fag break. The word for cigarette apparently comes from 'fag-end', which meant a tag of cloth or the tail end of something. That was transferred to the butt of a cigarette being called the 'fag-end'. At which point the cigarette became the fag. So the word developed quite separately from 'faggot' in any of its meanings. There's also 'fag' meaning a younger boy who does chores for an older boy in certain old public (i.e. ancient private) schools. And 'fagged out', meaning tired - although I haven't heard that one in years. And 'faggot' meaning a dish of mixed offal. L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarahinwa Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Quote: "I am reading Huck Finn out loud again and I still find it hard to get that particular N word out - I keep feeling that the Inappropriate Language Police will swoop in and get me" Lol! When my brothers were little my dad read Huck Finn out loud to them. He replaced that word with "black gentleman" all the way. Unfortunately, it seemed like he had to say "black gentleman" a lot. At age 11, I asked my mom what ejaculate meant. Turns out, a previously more widely used meaning of the word was to interrupt or interject a comment into a discussion. (Thank you, L.M. Montgomery!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pod's mum Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 LOL It is good to ask the context first when a child asks for a definition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boysrus Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 I had to skip the Rod and Staff poetry lesson that began with the line "I love little p....y" (the word that use to mean cat). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Yep, the correct German pronunciation of the philosopher's name is actually the one that we want to avoid our kid's using. I gather the polite thing to do in English speaking countries is to change it to Can't. Does this YouTube video offer the correct pronunciation of Kant's name? That honestly doesn't sound like the slang for female parts to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheryl in CA Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 The word for cigarette apparently comes from 'fag-end', which meant a tag of cloth or the tail end of something. That was transferred to the butt of a cigarette being called the 'fag-end'. At which point the cigarette became the fag. So the word developed quite separately from 'faggot' in any of its meanings. There's also 'fag' meaning a younger boy who does chores for an older boy in certain old public (i.e. ancient private) schools. And 'fagged out', meaning tired - although I haven't heard that one in years. And 'faggot' meaning a dish of mixed offal. L In Pride & Prejudice (the one with Colin Firth) Lydia Bennett collapses into a chair and says, "I can scarce draw breath I'm so fagged." I don't recall if she said that in the book. For the longest time we thought she said "fat" until we turned on the captions. Once we found out what "fagged" meant it made more sense because "fat" never made sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 I have heard people say 'I'm completely and utterly fagged' not that long ago, but quite honestly they were also the types of people who like to start trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abba12 Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 I had to skip the Rod and Staff poetry lesson that began with the line "I love little p....y" (the word that use to mean cat). Oh come on, really? I understand the word is used in a certain context but we call our cats that all the time (though, I must admit, the term puddy or putty, ala tweety bird, seems to have gained popularity.) I have never thought twice at asking my kids where the pussy cat is. (if you really don't like the word pussy, you could replace it for kitty and not lose anything) In my area of Australia some of these words are still in frequent use. Ass refers to a donkey and is on the same level as calling someone a cow (a common insult to a woman here) I wouldn't let my kids say it but it isn't highly offensive and I use it myself at times, despite not cursing/swearing in general language. My friends still refer to cigarettes as fags, no one much bats an eyelid at that one. Cock is common but these days is more likely to be expanded to cockerel. I live in the country so bitch as a term for a female dog is in common usage when referring to sheepdogs and breeding. I do get annoyed at the way they are changing the words of any nursery rhymes that contain the word gay. It was a perfectly reasonable word and I am of the opinion both definitions should be used Most kids here find the intro to the show The Nanny very funny because they feel like they're hearing something terribly naughty when the intro says she was out on her fanny. As for it's use as a name, I believe an episode of Pokemon contained a character called Fanny and mum ended up turning it off because she couldn't stop laughing lol. (For anyone that missed it, the word does not mean backside here.) Boner was a term for a bungled stunt. I remember it being used among kids when I was a child, and I believed the term originated from a stupid stunt that went wrong and often broke, or risked breaking, a bone. Most commonly heard around BMX, surfer and extreme sports types. I can't remember the last time I heard it used though. Also, be careful using American Christians as a definition for Christians around the world. We do have non-drinking christians here, but they are almost always either baptists, or keen followers of particular American authors/pastors. LOTS of Christians have no issue at all with alcohol in moderation, and many do not even believe being drunk is a sin (believing that drunk, under the biblical use, was referring to someone with alcoholism, which IS a sin by almost all definitions. When it refers to a titus 2 woman being sober, it's generally translated here as someone who is not an alcoholic, which was a more widespread problem back then, rather than someone who is a teetotaler.) Likewise, head covering is near unheard of except in Amish/Mennonite/charity churches in America, but in other countries, particularly ones where Catholicism was dominant, it is still a somewhat common practice. Popularity of infant baptism vs believers baptism tends to be very cultural, etc. So please know that an american generalization may not hold true internationally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pod's mum Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Does this YouTube video offer the correct pronunciation of Kant's name? That honestly doesn't sound like the slang for female parts to me. It's pretty spot on for the slang term here. Also called the 'C' word as it is one of the baddest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rachel Posted February 18, 2014 Author Share Posted February 18, 2014 I seem to remember Roald Dahl using them too. Conventions change, and apparently in 1950's England, ass and damn were colorful as opposed to offensive language. Faggot just meant exactly that, a bundle of sticks. My mom remembers cigarettes referred to as fags back in the 50s and early 60s in the south. Also, pretty sure that overseas ass just means acting stupid and stubborn like a donkey. Arse is the vulgar word over there. Colorful as opposed to offensive makes sense. My husband pointed out the difference in a$$ vs. arse. Great topic. I love this kind of thing :) Yes ass does mean donkey, and it can be used rudely, but it is a mild insult, not equivalent to a curse/swear word but more on the level of "you silly", or maybe "don't be a pig" if your child is eating with really bad manners. Around here you might also hear "arse!" which roughly means "bother!" and is only considered rude by the more delicate types of person (as in, it's the kind of thing I'd let the kids say but remind them that they probably shouldn't say it to their teacher). I don't remember your D word in Narnia (and I really should, since I have a Narnia-obsessed child who has listened to the entire seven volumes at least 10 times!) - where was it? (I'm assuming you didn't just hear the bit about the beavers' dam when you weren't concentrating?!). Not sure about the UK, but that word certainly isn't considered rude by 99% of Australians. Oh just remembered, Uncle Andrew kept calling the witch "dem fine woman" didn't he? When I was a kid in the 70s and 80s, fags meant cigarettes and there was even a type of candy by that name that was basically cigarettes made out of sugar. When it became illegal to promote smoking, they changed the name to Fads, but I don't think they're popular now. It's fascinating how language evolves, though. I am reading Huck Finn out loud again and I still find it hard to get that particular N word out - I keep feeling that the Inappropriate Language Police will swoop in and get me :lol: There is a rant near the end, I think it was Fledge, he uses the D word a few times in a row. I think it was the several times in a row that surprised me more than the use of the word. We were in the car so it was in surround sound too. Yes: ass means donkey or 'foolish person'. When Brits want to say backside they say 'arse'. 'Damn' is very commonly used - I wouldn't be surprised to see it in a book for older children. Just an FYI: the habits required of Christians of different denominations and in different countries are not going to be the same. As one example: I had no idea, until I came across the idea on these boards, that there were Christians who felt that abstinence from alcohol was preferable for religious reasons. All the Christians I know in the UK drink moderately (unless they just don't like the taste). L That's part of my curiosity, I've only lived in fairly conservative areas so I'm not always aware of what might be considered normal elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abba12 Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 I have heard people say 'I'm completely and utterly fagged' not that long ago, but quite honestly they were also the types of people who like to start trouble. I've never heard fagged used in that context, in fact I don't think I have ever heard 'fagged' as a past tense at all. However it's very common usage to say "I am totally buggered" which, I guess, is a more crude description of the same thing come to think of it! Now I wonder about the origins, since the two words meant something similar to each other both in past and modern usage. But, yeah, still frequently used among the working class in Australia at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 I've never heard fagged used in that context, in fact I don't think I have ever heard 'fagged' as a past tense at all. However it's very common usage to say "I am totally buggered" which, I guess, is a more crude description of the same thing come to think of it! Now I wonder about the origins, since the two words meant something similar to each other both in past and modern usage. But, yeah, still frequently used among the working class in Australia at least. I believe fagged out had meant something more like 'at the tail-end/fag-end of my reserves' originally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 I don't even blink reading some of these. My kids read mostly British literature and watch British shows, so they don't blink, either. But they do yell at me if I say "crap". Sigh. Anyway, I do bring up the changing meanings of these words with the kids when I read some of the more offensive ones. "Queer" is one I've never commented on, though, because we read them a lot in poetry. I did point out that it means "happy," and they know LGBT people and know all about the political and social issues right now. So maybe they think all LGBT are happy or vice versa. Perhaps you mean "gay" since "queer" originally meant strange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsabelC Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Here's a poem (I found it in the Art-Literature Readers, Primer level) that I shared in another thread once: The Boys by Oliver Wendell Holmes Yes, we're boys,—always playing with tongue or with pen,— And I sometimes have asked,—Shall we ever be men? Shall we always be youthful, and laughing and gay, Till the last dear companion drops smiling away? The dear companions dropping, while smiling away gives me the creeps. Okay, I'm pretty sure that it doesn't mean "smiling away" as they drop, but rather: "drops, smiling, away" as in smiles while dropping away. Which isn't the same thing at all. When dd was doing sequential spelling today on the computer I was very surprised to hear the voice ask her to spell boner. Here this is a slang word for an erection. I'm not sure where the developer(s) of this program originate, but from the sentence using the word, I'm guessing it means a dumb mistake. Is this an acceptable word for a little girl to hear where you live? You got me there. I have honestly never heard that word used to mean anything other than erection. Unless you're in the American South, where the word you're referring to is frequently pronounced "caint" -- which I'm pretty sure is not an accepted pronunciation of his name. :lol: Are you sure that isn't another version of the older quint, which I think was itself a euphemism for c&nt? Huh? It is "polite" to mispronounce a person's name? That's just bizarre. It would be clear form the context that the word refers to the philosopher's name and not the other meaning. (Now, mispronouncing names of non-English origin is a pet peeve of mine... while people elsewhere try very hard to pronounce American names and places as close as they can to the original, the same courtesy is not extended to foreign places and people names) I don't know about whether it would be considered truly polite. I was just saying that it what is done. All the lecturers I heard who mentioned him mispronounced. I don't know whether this is the case everywhere, but where I live, the C word is considered the rudest word there is, maybe 10 times as rude as f%ck, and only the most impolite (or radical) people would dare to say it. Quote: "I am reading Huck Finn out loud again and I still find it hard to get that particular N word out - I keep feeling that the Inappropriate Language Police will swoop in and get me" Lol! When my brothers were little my dad read Huck Finn out loud to them. He replaced that word with "black gentleman" all the way. Unfortunately, it seemed like he had to say "black gentleman" a lot. At age 11, I asked my mom what ejaculate meant. Turns out, a previously more widely used meaning of the word was to interrupt or interject a comment into a discussion. (Thank you, L.M. Montgomery!) I saw somebody on television (probably Stephen Fry) listing all the ejaculations that occurred in Sherlock Homes, which was quite amusing (naturally, Watson ejaculated most often, being the most often astonished). LOL It is good to ask the context first when a child asks for a definition. Yep. No matter what the word or expression, my go to response is "Where did you hear that?". Gives me time to formulate a suitable definition as well as providing context (it can be surprising how hard it is to define some common words in a way that kids can understand). Does this YouTube video offer the correct pronunciation of Kant's name? That honestly doesn't sound like the slang for female parts to me. Yes, and that's pretty much how the female parts sounds to me as well. Maybe Emmanuel is only a problem in Australia? Boner was a term for a bungled stunt. I remember it being used among kids when I was a child, and I believed the term originated from a stupid stunt that went wrong and often broke, or risked breaking, a bone. Most commonly heard around BMX, surfer and extreme sports types. That would explain why I've never heard it. I was the kind of kid who did lots of reading, schoolwork and music, and never did anything remotely stunty (the only time I ever broke a bone doing sport was ice-skating). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Okay, I'm pretty sure that it doesn't mean "smiling away" as they drop, but rather: "drops, smiling, away" as in smiles while dropping away. Which isn't the same thing at all. .... Yes, and that's pretty much how the female parts sounds to me as well. Maybe Emmanuel is only a problem in Australia? And I still find that poem creepy! About the poem - well, then that's the difference. The female part sounds different to me. I found some YouTube videos, one with an American saying them both and a British lady who reports her teddy bear was mispronouncing "can't" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xexSXcTE-aY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Does this YouTube video offer the correct pronunciation of Kant's name? Yes, that is exactly how his name is pronounced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 . All the lecturers I heard who mentioned him mispronounced. I also have never heard an American pronounce JS Bach's name correctly. Which, I believe, has a completely inoffensive meaning. I think it is ridiculous. Kant is his name, and the context will make it perfectly clear that the speaker is not using slang for body parts, but talks about a philosopher. This professor uses the correct pronounciation in his lectures: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsabelC Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 How is Bach usually pronounced? I know how to say it in German, and I know that in Australia people generally say Bark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsquirrel Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 I almost snorted my tea when reading Peter Pan and he mentions the fairies coming back in the morning light from an orgy. I think it meant a late party with lots of drinking, but honestly I am not so sure with him. That book has many layers. Generally, if I have to change the words in something, then I decide that my kid isn't old enough to be hearing it. The one exception I made was Kippling's "Just So" stories. And ass in a British book, doesn't bother me in the least. My kids hear so hear so many British books and watch enough BBC that they think 'donkey'. Now, 'arse' to them means backside. I did fall apart laughing when reading an old novel in which the main character (a very prim and grandmotherly type) found some hidden dust in her house and announced "Oh my goodness, I had no idea I was such a slut". That one killed me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Yes, and that's pretty much how the female parts sounds to me as well. Maybe Emmanuel is only a problem in Australia? To British ears, 'Kant' in the video is a quite different pronunciation from the C word. L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 This thread is making me glad my kids haven't heard a lot of those cuss words. So they can read those nice books without getting horrified. I know we recently encountered "gay" in a book and it didn't faze anyone. They do occasionally hear the usual popular ones, but so far I haven't seen any completely innocent traditional meanings for f--k and sh--. I'm not sure my kids know b-tch is a cuss word. They will use b-tching for complaining once in a while. They also know that b-tch is a female dog. They may think b-tch is about the same as hag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Yeah, I never heard Kant pronounced weirdly or name danced around. In fact, it never occurred to me to that there was any connection with that slang, and neither do I avoid saying "can't," which I basically pronounce as the American man in the video. In all my discussions with philosophers, I've never heard one avoid his name, much less giggle nervously about some slang term. I once had an international student (not from the UK) tell me that my way of pronouncing "can't" was ugly and I should try to imitate the British way or something like "cahn't." I ignored that "advice." How is Bach usually pronounced? I know how to say it in German, and I know that in Australia people generally say Bark. Yikes! Going back to the German pronunciation channel, This is more or less how I say it, or at least try to. (I don't avoid the "ch" sound.) I was thinking again about that poem before I slept, and I realized I never interpreted it as dropping while smiling away, but I did see it as dropping away while smiling. Either way, I think it's creepy; a group of "gay boys" dropping dead makes me think of something else entirely, namely, the mass deaths of the 1980s/90s due to AIDS. The idea that they'd all be smiling is the issue, I think! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srs Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 I may botch the spelling, but the German word for the bassoon is Fagott, also derived from the bundle of sticks. That caused many a chuckle in my high school orchestra years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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