Planned Parenthood-is this common?

[Slartibartfast]

The quotes stating that cervical cancer is the second most common cause of death (or cancer deaths) in women worldwide are full of it. Every source I googled says otherwise, except for the link posted above.

 

Ahead of those, for women, are infectious diseases, cardiovascular disease, accidental injuries, AIDS, death in childbirth, lung disease, digestive diseases, diabetes, psychiatric diseases, suicide/murder/war, breast cancer, lung cancer, colorectal cancer, stomach cancer, measles, Alzheimers, hunger, ....

AIDs was not even a blip on the radar when changes were being implemented to reduce the cervical cancer rates. What kills the most people fluctuates with technology, advances in science, and culture. It is different year by year.

 

you posted....

 

That doesn't make sense. The incidence and death rates for lung cancer and breast cancer are far, far higher. I can understand lung cancer possibly being a recent phenomenon (women didn't smoke much before), but not breast cancer. And what about colon cancer and skin cancer etc? Something doesn't match up.

Anyway, I didn't mean to completely derail the thread to be about PAP tests, but it kind of bugs me the way people get on the emotional "women would DIE without PP" which is based mainly on PAP tests. I am glad that the medical community is recently looking into and moderating some of the claims made about PAP tests.

Pap smears are still necessary every few years. While they no longer insist on a test every year the extensive screening has reduced the rates significantly. One of the "symptoms" of Cervical cancer is that someone is poor. Not everyone can afford regular screenings and yes, PP does have an impact on that. PP does provide valuable services. If people don't want PP to exist those services need to come from somewhere.

 

As stated previously cervical cancer rates have been plummeting due to the prevalence of pap smears, knowledge of the causes of cervical cancers and prevention methods being applied. Breastcancer now kills more women than cervical cancer but that did not used to be the case. Breastcancer kills more because it is less treatable and preventable (or as far as we know at this point in our scientific knowledge) Skin cancer rates went up due partially to the depletion of our ozone, lung cancer is also a more modern phenomenon.

 

 

The US saw a reduction of 50% in cervical cancer rates from 1975-2008 That is significant. Our rates are even lower now. I did provide a link from cancer.org.

 

If one looks at page 24 of this table, the evidence is clear. Cervical cancer was the third most commonly diagnosed cancer in women in 2008 and 85% of those cases were in developing countries.

 

http://www.cancer.org/acs/groups/content/@epidemiologysurveilance/documents/document/acspc-027766.pdf

 

Cervical cancer used to be the leading cause of cancer death for women in the United States. However, in the past 40 years, the number of cases of cervical cancer and the number of deaths from cervical cancer have decreased significantly. This decline largely is the result of many women getting regular Pap tests, which can find cervical precancer before it turns into cancer.

Cervical cancer is quickly becoming a success story. If more women had services available to them world wide then the results would be significant.

[swellmomma]

It would surprise me to see that level of security for sure.  I have been to pp/reproductive clinic three times in the past.  Once as a teenager for a pregnancy test, once when I was a student in college to get the pill and when I got pg with dd14 for an impartial ear to listen as I tried to figure what I was going to do.  Neither time had any security.  The time as a teenager they were in this little office on a residential street, in a renovated house, they did not do abortions there, just routine reproductive health, but they could refer you to the dr that did abortions if you opted for that route.  No security, they brewed me a cup of tea and talked for a bit before we did the pregnancy test and then talked some more etc.  2nd time I was a poor college student and went in to get the pill since I could not afford the cost, again no security.  This office was in an office building right on the LRT route I took(like the subway), more clinical than the first place I went.  3rd time was in a low income residential area, not a good area, upper level of a nearly empty office building.  No security, again they made me a cup of tea and talked for a long while then loaded me up with prenatal vitamins, maternity clothes and baby items when I decided to maintain the pregnancy.  I don't know if the first 2 were pp or not, the third certainly was.  I would not have gone in if it had so much security or protesters etc.  They do certainly show up at the abortion clinic but tend to stay away from the other clinics associated with pp it seems.  Altough I am not surprised when I hear the difference between how things are in the US vs here in Canada, when I hear of how extreme the safety measures have to be for some places I am still always shocked.

[flyingiguana]

http://www.policymic.com/articles/35069/yes-i-m-pro-abortion

 

Yes, I'm Pro-Abortion

By Lauren Rankin

 

"It is not enough to be pro-choice"

 

"The statement that “I’m not pro-abortion, I’m pro-choice†is inherently defensive. Rather than embracing abortion as a viable and respected choice, it sidelines abortion; it delegitimizes that valid choice. By rhetorically sidelining abortion, we are distancing ourselves from that choice. If a woman wishes to have an abortion, then I support abortion."

 

You must not have actually read the opinion piece you posted.  Or perhaps didn't understand it.  Yes, she uses that pro-abortion term to be provocative, but she's not actually pro-abortion.  If you actually read the piece, you'll see that she's pro - abortion availability. 

 

It's a totally different thing.

 

[flyingiguana]

 

I understand a person to be the one living outside the womb. Inside the womb, it's still in development. The actual person should have rights to her own body, the potential person should not. 

 

I don't totally agree with this -- at the least, I would amend it to include as living those persons who might be viable outside the womb, with technological help.

 

For me, though, this still leaves a moral quandary as to what to do with 2nd trimester fetuses that the mother wishes to abort.  They seem to me to be on a cusp between personhood and not-personhood. 

 

But that just makes me more of an advocate for abortion availability.  Many 2nd trimester abortions happen only because the mother couldn't get access to an abortion in the 1st trimester.  Or didn't know how to ask.  Or was terrified to ask.

 

It's true, too, that we probably don't know the extent of people we know who have had abortions but don't talk about them.  There are a few people who I have discovered, over the course of our friendships, have had abortions.  And I was pretty shocked.  Because I couldn't imagine them making that decision, based on what I knew about them currently.  But none of them had regrets -- because at the time they made the decision, that was the best decision.  They were in a different place, were a different person.  They wouldn't do it NOW, but they didn't have the resources back then that they do now.

 

I do, however, know people who gave up babies for adoption who sincerely regret it.  Some who regret having the baby, even though it was adopted.  For the mother, this is something they never really forget or get over.  Is it fair to leave that on a woman?  We could weigh moral rights on this one endlessly, but I, at least, think that the rights of the woman AT LEAST equal the rights of the fetus.  Generally, her rights far outweigh that of the fetus in the early months of the pregnancy, solely because the woman is already a human being.  The fetus is only in a state of becoming.

 

That said, though, I would still take a lot longer making a decision to abort a fetus than I would over eating a hamburger.  It's not the same thing at all.  And I have never met anyone who thought it was.

 

As an aside: I had a great aunt who did illegal abortions. so my mother told me.  I don't know on how many people, or if she only did them on herself.  Family stories, unfortunately, don't always get all the details.   Apparently, the method of choice was a knitting needle.  I'm not sure how she survived them.  (Our neighbor, who went to Mexico to get an abortion when it was illegal in the states only barely survived the procedure, even though it was done in a hospital)

[goldberry]

Right, if it were already dead and were endangering the other two that would be a no-brainer although still gut-wrenching to pull the plug.

 

I'm thinking more of cases where the baby has serious abnormalities which will likely prove fatal shortly after birth.

 

 

 

 

My friend dealt with this, where she didn't find out the extent of the abnormalities until about her 7-8th month.   She decided to go ahead and let the delivery progress, even though she knew the baby would die shortly.  She felt right about the decision at the time. 

 

Later she regretted it, and the reasons had to do with the way she was treated at the hospital.  She and her husband went through an agonizing process beforehand about whether or not they would pursue any additional treatment.  After extensive discussion with their doctors, they were firmly convinced that there was no realistic chance for their baby to survive or ever have any life.

 

In spite of making this decision way ahead of time, the hospital staff treated her LIKE CRAP because they didn't wan't the baby rushed off on life support, but rather wanted to just spend what few minutes the baby had left together.  They kept coming in while she was in labor to confirm, "so you just want your baby to die, is that right?"  Her physician wasn't there at the time, he was coming from somewhere else.

 

Even after the doc got there, and the staff finally left her alone, after she delivered and the baby died, they kept coming in, "Are you ready to go now?  Because you're done."

 

Just clarifying, this baby had multiple and extensive abnormalities combined, any one of which would have not been compatible with life.

[Retired]

There are mentally criminal folks on both sides of the abortion debate.   The planned parent hood is a symbol of the progressive abortion debate.   They do provide other services.  I've never used one but when I was young and poor I used the country health department (which for Alabama in the 80's was our poor women's service.  They provided all the women's care except abortion.

 

I've been in the medical field for 20 years.   When I was a nursing student I was like most college girls very much its the women's body she has a right to choose.   THis changed for me when I did a clinical experience through an abortion facility (this was not plan parenthood)   There is no way that I don't consider a embryo/fetus life.  The embryo/babies thrown out  was disturbing   I still remember every detail.   It changed my life.   

 

I honestly can't see the argument for abortion but since I use to be one of those that followed the progressive speak.   I want try to convince anyone of my belief.  

 

I want to address the security of plan parenthood.  I know that here  in Alabama there w the abortion clinic bombing so I get the need for security.  

 

My e/r is starting to become a locked fortress LOL.  We used to have a open bay with gurney everywhere.  We now go through lock doors and camereas.   We had some guy a few weeks ago come in with a gun  threaten the waiting room folks.  The culture is full of  mental ill or strung out on something that are threating other.  There is not way to stop this the war on drugs is lost.  The mental ill will always fall between the crack.

 

The true prolife people are prolife for all.  The folks threatening and being bullies are mentally unhinged.  Its just living in American today.  

 

 

[flyingiguana]

If the only way to have a valid point here is to tell our personal stories, I'm out.

 

If you could find statistics, that would be helpful to the discussion.

 

The best I've come up with is this article:

http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2009/06/02/lateterm-abortions-facts-stories-and-ways-help/

 

Once again, it's anecdotes (I think there are links to more).

 

However, I'm not surprised by that.  There are very few late term elective abortions.  To collect statistics on them would likely mean getting personal details from people who  don't necessarily want to share their pain with the wide world.  There are a few people who are willing to share -- and those are where the anecdotes come from.  But a statistical analysis would have to get a lot more data from a lot more people.  Understandably, most of those people would rather keep their privacy over such a heart wrenching decision.  Particularly since there are people holding up graphic signs outside abortion clinics and blasting such pictures all over the internet.  Maybe we'd have more information if there weren't a group of people intent on shaming women who are forced to make ethical decisions that most of us will never have to face.

 

However, based on the legal situation associated with later abortions (described in this article), it would seem fairly unlikely that anyone would be getting a later term abortion on a whim.  That's why the laws were set up the way they were.  

 

That said, though, I think I'd be a lot more comfortable if abortion decisions were left in the hands of mothers and their doctors.  Precisely because mothers are the ones who bond with the babies.  They are the ones who feel the first movements.  Therefore, you'd think they'd be the ones who understand what a difficult ethical decision it is.  The crazies out on the picket lines at Planned Parenthood are essentially saying these women don't have the mental capacity to make those decisions.  They're saying a woman, as soon as she becomes pregnant, is a stupid blob of tissue, while the fetus (even at a few weeks) is the thinking, sentient human who has all the rights in the relationship.

 

Ethical decisions ARE hard.  Absolutes don't help the discussion, and they do NOTHING to reduce the number of abortions or reduce the number of pregnancies that are likely to end in abortion or raise the kids who get born into bad situations.

 

Whether abortion is ethical IS a continuum.  The laws reflect that.  Women's and doctors' decisions reflect that.  Why can't they be trusted?

[flyingiguana]

 

 

I can understand why those who feel strongly about it want to make sure people know what an abortion really is.  Because there is this disingenuous "it's just tissue" argument on the other side.

 

Actually, I suspect the "it's just tissue" is a line that anti-abortionists attribute to "the other side".  I've only seen it in arguments from the anti-abortion side.  Admittedly, I haven't done an exhaustive survey, but even if you can produce an example of it, it doesn't change the fact that most pro-choice people (the ones I hear, anyway) do see abortion as an ethical decision, one that changes as the weeks progress.

 

Once again, abortion is a continuum.  The debate centers on where you draw the line between potential and actual sentience.  And whether the mother's life is secondary to the fetus'.

[flyingiguana]

It's not an emotional scare tactic.  It's history.  A particularly dark and horrific part of our history that I, for one, would rather not see happen in my lifetime.  

 

It actually has happened in MY lifetime.  It wasn't that long ago.

 

It worries me that people forget these things, and that's why they're willing to let legal abortion go away. 

 

When I was younger, there were pictures of women who had tried to abort themselves.  These women were dead.  In pools of blood.  Why does no one post those anymore?  Are they just way too tasteless and shocking?

 

Are they more shocking than pictures of aborted fetuses?

 

If the battle is going to be fought with pictures....

 

My point, though, is that I don't know why there has to be a battle at all.  WHY is anyone even protesting clinics that OCCASIONALLY provide abortions.  Why don't these people who are so appalled put their energies to good use?  And why does any of this debate center around shaming women?

[Mergath]

It actually has happened in MY lifetime.  It wasn't that long ago.

 

It worries me that people forget these things, and that's why they're willing to let legal abortion go away. 

 

 

I was born after Roe v. Wade, so I only know what I've read.  But that was enough to convince me that abortion needs to remain legal.

[Jennifer3141]

For me religion, abortion and birth control go hand in hand.

 

In 2014, we still have major religions that teach that any kind of family planning will lead to a path to hell. In 2014.

 

As a progressive, I'm not willing to bend on abortion because of things like this. I get that there are an awful lot of, "lucky Catholics" out there walking around with 2.5 kids so that the BC "law" in those faiths is generally ignored but I've also seen the insane backlash against women's rights the past few years.

 

Have I personally ever had one? Nope. (I had infertility for years. I was religiously taking the pill and probably didn't need it.) Would I consider an abortion if I got pregnant now at the age of 42? I would probaby pause and consider it. If the fetus was damaged severely, YES absolutely. Beyond a shadow of a doubt in mine and my DH's minds. I have friends that have and the abortion didn't change how I thought of them at all. I did dump a conservative friend for her abortion - but not really. She chose to have it because the pregnancy was inconvienent for her at that time in her life. She was ok. She just didn't think anyone else should get one.

 

I would also have so much more respect for the other side's arguments if while they were screaming about abortion, they were simultaneously expanding post-pregnancy services for people with kids. Where are people once the babies are born? The babies pop out and everyone walks away.

 

I'm an incredibly priviledged white woman in America. I have no worries about lunch. I have no worries about groceries. Or my next house payment or car payments or whatever. But motherhood still dropped me to my knees. Wow. It's freaking HARD.

 

I remember some mentally ill woman slammed her baby on the sidewalk shortly after my daughter was born in CA, I think. And I remember watching that story unfold and thinking, "There but for the grace of whatever." I have an education. A mostly stable middle-upper class upbringing with parents who love me. No diagnosed mental illness. A husband who adores me. No addictions, if you exclude chocolate and creme brulee. Start taking any of those characteristics away though and... yikes. 

 

So if the other side wants respect, if you spend 5 hours holding a sign screaming at women who make the decision to abort - then go and spend 10 hours at a post-pregnancy couseling center helping those women care for those babies. Or adopt one of the many, many ethnic or racial minority children in the foster system right now and figure out how to raise them lovingly in a world that still will judge them for the color of their skin. 

 

Until I see places like WIC offices and Christian early childhood counseling centers overflowing with diapers and loving volunteers and food and opportunities for these moms and babies, I don't think abortion should be off the table. I would LOVE to see the other side prove abortion should be illegal. But they won't win the hearts and minds of people like me with plastic fetuses and 5 foot signs. They will only win by changing society so that every child is wanted and cared for.

 

 

[SKL]

I just want to say that it is not true that pro-life people don't bother to offer any help to born children in need.  Many of us certainly do.  It bothers me to see a blanket statement implying that we just want to force women to bear a huge burden alone.

 

I also wonder where "shaming" of women comes up in this thread.  I have not seen it.

[Mrs Mungo]

I just want to say that it is not true that pro-life people don't bother to offer any help to born children in need.  Many of us certainly do.  It bothers me to see a blanket statement implying that we just want to force women to bear a huge burden alone.

NOBODY said that. What was stated was the *organizations* that purport to be "crisis pregnancy centers" *do not* generally do anything to help a woman carry through with a pregnancy or support a baby after it is born.

 

I also wonder where "shaming" of women comes up in this thread.  I have not seen it.

Really? I was at the doctor with my eldest dd this week. They had to do a pregnancy test by law before giving her a certain med. The doctor joked, "and if it's positive, we'll pick your mom up off of the floor and give her meds." It's not something I was worried about with my dd. But, I can only imagine how a teenager who *might have been* worried about it might have felt at that comment.

 

But you don't think young women are *shamed* by being single and pregnant? I could easily post links to a THOUSAND political speeches designed to shame women who have kids out of wedlock.

[Meriwether]

 

But I also think that people who are saying "Well, of course I would have the baby" frequently have no idea what they'd do in a similar situation, because they have never been in this situation.

 

I'd have the baby. For a number of reasons.

 

My BIL and SIL decided to have their baby. They were told she would have horrible birth defects. She was born healthy.

 

[awisha.]

nm 

 

Edited January 10, 2014 by Moderator
Name calling

[Joanne]

I just want to say that it is not true that pro-life people don't bother to offer any help to born children in need. Many of us certainly do. It bothers me to see a blanket statement implying that we just want to force women to bear a huge burden alone.

 

I also wonder where "shaming" of women comes up in this thread. I have not seen it.

You missed the point of my post. The culture that creates unwanted pregnancies is complicated. Part of that culture is revering virginity and slut shaming.

 

If you want to reduce abortions, you need to change the culture in which women are raised and the messages we send them.

[Joanne]

NOBODY said that. What was stated was the *organizations* that purport to be "crisis pregnancy centers" *do not* generally do anything to help a woman carry through with a pregnancy or support a baby after it is born.

 

 

Really? I was at the doctor with my eldest dd this week. They had to do a pregnancy test by law before giving her a certain med. The doctor joked, "and if it's positive, we'll pick your mom up off of the floor and give her meds." It's not something I was worried about with my dd. But, I can only imagine how a teenager who *might have been* worried about it might have felt at that comment.

 

But you don't think young women are *shamed* by being single and pregnant? I could easily post links to a THOUSAND political speeches designed to shame women who have kids out of wedlock.

Not only that, women (and teen girls) are frequently shamed for having sex.

[Joanne]

NOBODY said that. What was stated was the *organizations* that purport to be "crisis pregnancy centers" *do not* generally do anything to help a woman carry through with a pregnancy or support a baby after it is born.

 

 

Really? I was at the doctor with my eldest dd this week. They had to do a pregnancy test by law before giving her a certain med. The doctor joked, "and if it's positive, we'll pick your mom up off of the floor and give her meds." It's not something I was worried about with my dd. But, I can only imagine how a teenager who *might have been* worried about it might have felt at that comment.

 

But you don't think young women are *shamed* by being single and pregnant? I could easily post links to a THOUSAND political speeches designed to shame women who have kids out of wedlock.

Not only that, women (and teen girls) are frequently shamed for having sex.

[awisha.]

nm 

 

Edited January 10, 2014 by Moderator
That was a personal attack.

[zoobie]

Not only that, women (and teen girls) are frequently shamed for having sex.

 

All of the time. Sandra Fluke for one.

[mamaraby]

Once again, abortion is a continuum.  The debate centers on where you draw the line between potential and actual sentience.  And whether the mother's life is secondary to the fetus'.

I also think it is an issue of consistency across genders.  If you can't require anyone (male or female) to donate an organ, or blood, or bone marrow in order to keep another person alive, then how do you justify requiring a pregnant woman to do so as well?  The person in question who needs the transplant has already been born and has a life that they, arguably, want to keep living.  We even make organ donation voluntary after someone has died.  Shall we make it required that folks sign up for kidney and bone marrow registries and then require them to donate when a match is found?  Shall we put an end to voluntary organ donation so that everyone is an organ donor after they die whether they want to or not?  Why put more value on the potential life with ethical issues regarding sentience,a life that for much of the first part of pregnancy cannot exist outside of the mother, over the lives of people already alive, already capable of breathing, eating, walking, talking, etc?  IMO, if we're talking about being pro-life, then the most consistent position is compulsory organ, tissue, and blood donation via national registry.

 

When it comes to pregnancy, I value the bodily integrity of the pregnant woman.  I trust her ability to make the right decision.  IMO it should be safe, legal, and none of your business.  If you aren't the one who's pregnant or her care provider, then it really isn't your concern. 

[Mrs Mungo]

All of the time. Sandra Fluke for one.

Funny response satire video in response to that situation that some people may find offensive, but it makes the point:

 

Eta: Hm, the video link won't post from my phone. I will have to post it later or have someone do it for me. :)

 

I can paste this bit, you will have to add on the http, the : and the // to see the video

 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZK75pXLlbY

[Jackie]

Others here are already nicely covering any argument I would make, and doing so more eloquently than I would, so I'll stay out of that part of it.

 

As to the original post - in the medium-sized Bible Belt town I live in, the Planned Parenthood has zero security five of the six days per week it is open. On Thursdays, however, abortions are performed, sign-waving protesters show up outside, and you do need buzzed in, carded, and quizzed before getting past the entryway. When I worked with teens, I always hated it when I forgot about the chaos on Thursdays and stupidly made a routine health appointment for someone on that day. I'd remember it when nearly running over the protesters, who seemed to respect their own lives so little that they often carelessly spilled out into a lane of traffic from their more-or-less assigned spot on the side of the road.

[flyingiguana]

 

If you want to reduce abortions, you need to change the culture in which women are raised and the messages we send them.

 

Someone I once knew who worked with pregnant teens told me that the kids they saw who had gotten pregnant by accident *tended* to be girls who came from "good" families.

 

These kids were a lot less likely to seek out birth control before they had sex, because they knew "good" girls didn't have sex.  So even though they fully intended to have sex, they pretty much denied it was going to happen and never sought out birth control.  That would have been admitting they were going to do it, and had made a conscious decision.  They knew "good" girls didn't do that, so they were more likely to let it kind of happen in the heat of the moment and then say later that things got out of hand.

 

They may also have had less opportunity to acquire bc.  I don't know that that's the sort of thing "good" schools would consider handing out.  And doctors are probably less likely to ask the pertinent questions.

 

[Mom2Es]

I always wonder why some other organization doesn't set up to provide the services other than abortions.  To provide a real alternative.  I mean, how can they blame people for going to PP when the other alternatives are out of reach?

 

 

I live in a relatively conservative area, and our county health department does all of those things (except abortion) at three different locations.  Here's the quote off the health department website: "Our clinics provide confidential services to county residents regardless of age, sex, income, race, disability or marital status.  Fees are based on income and family size, but no one will be denied services because of inability to pay. [Medicaid and insurance plans] are accepted for services, and payment plan schedules are available...Proof of income is required at each visit to qualify for discounted services."

 

They do everything except prenatal care, and they used to do that, too (a friend of mine who has since moved away was a nurse at the main branch).  Pap smears, birth control (all types, including vasectomies), breast cancer screenings...  They do it.  I've gone there for a couple of things, and the facilities are not dumpy at all.

 

But the PP branch in our county still uses the "women don't have anywhere else to go for these things" line, even though it isn't exactly true here.

[Ipsey]

"..Proof of income is required at each visit to qualify for discounted services."

 

But the PP branch in our county still uses the "women don't have anywhere else to go for these things" line, even though it isn't exactly true here.

"Proof of income is required at each visit to qualify for discounted services."

 

For women who don't have an income, it is true.

[QueenCat]

I live in a relatively conservative area, and our county health department does all of those things (except abortion) at three different locations.  Here's the quote off the health department website: "Our clinics provide confidential services to county residents regardless of age, sex, income, race, disability or marital status.  Fees are based on income and family size, but no one will be denied services because of inability to pay. [Medicaid and insurance plans] are accepted for services, and payment plan schedules are available...Proof of income is required at each visit to qualify for discounted services."

 

They do everything except prenatal care, and they used to do that, too (a friend of mine who has since moved away was a nurse at the main branch).  Pap smears, birth control (all types, including vasectomies), breast cancer screenings...  They do it.  I've gone there for a couple of things, and the facilities are not dumpy at all.

 

But the PP branch in our county still uses the "women don't have anywhere else to go for these things" line, even though it isn't exactly true here.

 

Unfortunately, not all county health departments are that good. Here, it is very difficult to get seen, and they can only serve the most needy, and not all of the most needy. And they do not offer nearly the amount of services you mention. There are fees, unless you have state insurance or Medicaid, and there is no guarantee you'll get seen, depends on how many are waiting.