Planned Parenthood-is this common?

[msjones]

Obviously, the violent protesters are breaking the law and need to be stopped.  I am not siding with them in any way.

 

But, their perspective is that worse violence is taking place inside clinics that provide abortions.  And so they feel they are quite justified -- as they would be if they were to attempt to defend a baby in a stroller from being killed.

 

For that reason, If I were working at one of those clinics or going there for routine medical care, I'd want all that security.

[msjones]

Most of them are designed to terrify and intimidate women and make them feel like crap if they so much as go near a PP.

 

And PP doesn't have that kind of money, to take all those security precautions just for appearances.  The security is there because they have no choice.

There are quite a few (10-12?) regular protesters outside one of the PP locations nearby.  They always appear calm and quiet, but they do hold large, graphic images of aborted fetuses.  

 

Not terrifying, but very unpleasant and unwelcoming for sure.

[Happy2BaMom]

I drive by an abortion provider nearly every week day. There are protestors there a couple times a week near the building, not in front of it or by the doors. Most of them are standing with no signs. The only signs I see are pictures of live babies or have things like, "we can help" on them.

 

Abortions might be 3% of the services provide by PP but in 2012, according to their annual report provided 327,166 abortions. According to the same report, nearly half of their revenue comes from the government.

 

I understand that the objections to the 3% / 327,166. That same report, however, also details that 1,307,750 cancer screenings were provided and 1,179,263 prenatal/pregnancy services were provided (as well as many other services related to birth control or STDs). Most of those women who seek the screenings and prenatal care are on Medicaid, which is where the government funding comes in. Many doctors offices have reduced or limited the Medicaid patients they will serve/allow (for the obvious reasons), so it is not uncommon for women to need to seek health services from PP.

 

The OP concerned the need for women who go to PP (and the people who work there) to have to undergo ridiculous security measures just to receive/provide the legal/non health care services.

 

 

 

 

 

[Mergath]

 

But, their perspective is that worse violence is taking place inside clinics that provide abortions.  And so they feel they are quite justified -- as they would be if they were to attempt to defend a baby in a stroller from being killed.

 

Perhaps, but there have been many instances where a clinic that doesn't even do abortions was attacked.  I think most of these people just hate the idea of a women's clinic, as someone else said.  The PP clinic here is tiny and, from what I've seen, definitely isn't set up to do abortions, but that doesn't stop the protesters, even in our small town.

[unsinkable]

I understand that the objections to the 3% / 327,166. That same report, however, also details that 1,307,750 cancer screenings were provided and 1,179,263 prenatal/pregnancy services were provided (as well as many other services related to birth control or STDs). Most of those women who seek the screenings and prenatal care are on Medicaid, which is where the government funding comes in. Many doctors offices have reduced or limited the Medicaid patients they will serve/allow (for the obvious reasons), so it is not uncommon for women to need to seek health services from PP.

 

The OP concerned the need for women who go to PP (and the people who work there) to have to undergo ridiculous security measures just to receive/provide the legal/non health care services.

I read the entire report, so I am aware of its contents.

[SKL]

I always wonder why some other organization doesn't set up to provide the services other than abortions.  To provide a real alternative.  I mean, how can they blame people for going to PP when the other alternatives are out of reach?

 

I know only one person who used PP (and told me about it).  She is fiercely anti-abortion and used PP only because they offered a year of free birth control (pills) (after which they charged a reasonable amount).  I don't think that particular PP (in a rural area) offered abortion services, nor, as far as I know, has it experienced scary protests or instituted the kind of security described here.  But then, it is located in a peaceful, laid-back area.

 

I'm not entirely convinced that the so-called "cancer screenings" (PAP smears) are really all that necessary or helpful (PP requires them before offering BC services), but that's a whole nother discussion.

[SKL]

And no, I do not believe the protests are because people hate women or want women to lack access to health care.

[Happy2BaMom]

 

 

I'm not entirely convinced that the so-called "cancer screenings" (PAP smears) are really all that necessary or helpful (PP requires them before offering BC services), but that's a whole nother discussion.

 

Yes, but cervical cancer used to be the leading cause of death in women (Source: CDC). Also, there is an STD (one of the HPV viruses, I believe) that leads directly to a very aggressive form of cervical cancer. Now there is a vaccine to prevent (or help prevent) that, but it still relies on someone getting that vaccine prior to becoming sexually active.

 

So, if someone is sexually active, screening for abnormal cells on the cervix makes a lot of sense.

[Happy2BaMom]

And no, I do not believe the protests are because people hate women or want women to lack access to health care.

 

I would agree with this. However, I think protestors are more concerned about shutting down the 3% than they are with the 97% of health care services being provided, and are not really concerned about replacing that 97% with any other alternatives.

[Mergath]

Yes, but cervical cancer used to be the leading cause of death in women (Source: CDC). Also, there is an STD (one of the HPV viruses, I believe) that leads directly to a very aggressive form of cervical cancer. Now there is a vaccine to prevent (or help prevent) that, but it still relies on someone getting that vaccine prior to becoming sexually active.

 

So, if someone is sexually active, screening for abnormal cells on the cervix makes a lot of sense.

 

My friend's sister's cancer was found and treated that way.  The screenings may generate a lot of false positives for abnormal cells, but better that than missing many cases of cancer.

[LucyStoner]

The portion of the PP budget that comes from comes from the government mostly represents fee for service contracts and reimbursements for women who use their government insurance at the clinic. No federal dollars go to abortion services.

[Liz CA]

I always wonder why some other organization doesn't set up to provide the services other than abortions.  To provide a real alternative.  I mean, how can they blame people for going to PP when the other alternatives are out of reach?

 

I know only one person who used PP (and told me about it).  She is fiercely anti-abortion and used PP only because they offered a year of free birth control (pills) (after which they charged a reasonable amount).  I don't think that particular PP (in a rural area) offered abortion services, nor, as far as I know, has it experienced scary protests or instituted the kind of security described here.  But then, it is located in a peaceful, laid-back area.

 

I'm not entirely convinced that the so-called "cancer screenings" (PAP smears) are really all that necessary or helpful (PP requires them before offering BC services), but that's a whole nother discussion.

 

We have alternatives in our area.

Agree with you that the protesters are not so much about wanting to keep women from medical care. Usually the individuals have a strong belief that abortion is wrong but unfortunately they go about communicating this viewpoint in the wrong way. Sadie made a good point: Jesus would not have been violent and foul-mouthed trying to convince someone to reconsider.

 

[SKL]

Yes, but cervical cancer used to be the leading cause of death in women.

 

No possible way.

 

[Happy2BaMom]

I read the entire report, so I am aware of its contents.

 

That may be, but your post did not relate to the topic of the OP. It seemed to be trying to make a point about PP and abortion. I was just pointing out the info you left out and attempted to redirect to the OP.

[Mergath]

No possible way.

 

 

If you're talking about cancer deaths, than yes.

 

http://www.cdc.gov/cancer/cervical/statistics/

[nmoira]

No possible way.

Leading cause of cancer deaths in women.

[unsinkable]

That may be, but your post did not relate to the topic of the OP. It seemed to be trying to make a point about PP and abortion. I was just pointing out the info you left out and attempted to redirect to the OP.

I was responding to a post that gave the 3% fact and a post that mentioned planned parenthood's funding. It is all part of the same conversation.

 

Edit...if those posts that brought up 3% and funding are part of the conversation, then mine are, too.

[LucyStoner]

I'm not entirely convinced that the so-called "cancer screenings" (PAP smears) are really all that necessary or helpful (PP requires them before offering BC services), but that's a whole nother discussion.

This is the standard of care everywhere in the USA that I am aware of. It is hardly unique to Planned Parenthood. I personally agree that women should not be required to have a PAP smear to get BC but so do some of the PP providers I know. Some consider it one of the many paternalistic and controlling aspects of our healthcare system with respect to women. The standard was recently changed to be more like every 2 or 3 years for women with a problem free personal and family health history.

 

That said, I think regular PAPs have been shown to be effective in the fight against cervical cancer and women should have the option to get them. I just don't I so if it should be tied to birth control. But that's the feminist in me.

[SKL]

That doesn't make sense.  The incidence and death rates for lung cancer and breast cancer are far, far higher.  I can understand lung cancer possibly being a recent phenomenon (women didn't smoke much before), but not breast cancer.  And what about colon cancer and skin cancer etc?  Something doesn't match up.

[SKL]

Anyway, I didn't mean to completely derail the thread to be about PAP tests, but it kind of bugs me the way people get on the emotional "women would DIE without PP" which is based mainly on PAP tests.  I am glad that the medical community is recently looking into and moderating some of the claims made about PAP tests.

[SeaConquest]

Going back to this topic of fearful teens, because I believe it's an important conversation to have as parents, we asked for a phone number from all patients in order to communicate the results of pap smears. We told the women explicitly that we would use a code name (e.g. Hazel called) in case someone else answered the phone. This was back in the day when people still shared phones. Even though we explained all this re how confidentiality would be maintained, many young girls gave us fake numbers. I only knew they were fake because I had to call many of them with abnormal pap results. I don't want to think of how many of them ended up with cancer because they were too afraid to leave a number.

[Excelsior! Academy]

Can't be long before this thread is terminated!

 

Why?  I like that we can disagree on a "hot topic" yet discuss it civilly.  It is one of the things I appreciate about this forum.

[La Condessa]

[quote name="SunnyDays" post="5407673"

I can't wrap my head around why anyone would think such violence is okay. But as pointed out above, there are many groups, both for and against whatever cause, who think it's their calling to prove a point by any means necessary.

 

I can; my uncle was one of those people. He firebombed one abortion clinic and attempted a second. He was not crazy or evil, he was just a stupid kid. His highschool English class had an assignment to research and write about a controversial topic, and he chose abortion. The more he read, the more he became convinced that it was no different than if parents who did not want their babies could legally have them euthanized by a doctor--he decided that it was murder of the innocents, and the government was condoning the practice instead of prosecuting the murderers. And the stupid, hotheaded 17-year-old decided that if the government wasn't going to act, he would. He and a friend were successful at their first night-time firebombing. There were people living in an apartment above the second, thank God they were caught!

 

But, yeah, while I certainly do not believe that violent action is an acceptable course to a cause, I can see how people can come to that place.

[Happy2BaMom]

SKL - I agree on not derailing the thread. I just wanted to pipe up that cervical cancer USED to be the leading cause of cancer (originally omitted mistakenly omitted 'cancer' above...sorry) deaths in women, but is no longer, largely due to implementation of PAP smears. I think the controversy is over how often they need to be done. Kinda like mammograms now.

[LucyStoner]

Anyway, I didn't mean to completely derail the thread to be about PAP tests, but it kind of bugs me the way people get on the emotional "women would DIE without PP" which is based mainly on PAP tests. I am glad that the medical community is recently looking into and moderating some of the claims made about PAP tests.

When I make a donation to PP that is never a thought that crosses my mind. I give because I have received excellent care from them in the past and because I want others to be able to receive that same excellent care. It's because I think that women should have access to all of these services, including abortion. I think it is silly to overemotionalize the motivations you assign to others, especially others you disagree with.

[sunflowerlady]

This thread has made me remember something else. When I was a child back in the 70's our town had a Women's' Clinic that was damaged by a fire set by some of these people. So, this has been going on for a long time. It isn't new and I am even more surprised that people are surprised.

[LucyStoner]

The ones I've seen have been horrifying. Huge 5 foot tall pictures of aborted babies, hate filled drivel, and screaming. This particular one was on the side of a busy road, in a town where there were no abortion clinics...which made it all the more strange. The other one I've seen was outside of a PP and it was just as bad.

People with signs like that came and stood outside of my high school. There were, not to my knowledge, any abortions taking place inside my high school between math class and philosophy class and drama club. Heck, we didn't even have a school nurse to dispense band aids and mydol. It was...a strange use of their time.

[Jennifer3141]

That, "Operation Rescue" crap came to my town about five years ago and took over the main three block drive through town. Five foot signs of aborted fetuses and people throwing plastic babies AT cars driving down the road. Yeah. Endangering MY kids whilst on our way to the grocery store really gives me empathy for you morons. Maybe they *think* they are doing good, but they aren't. They will kill someone totally innocent someday. So much for respecting all life. :laugh:

 

And let me tell you... the size of the donation my family made to PP the day after that protest is still the largest single sum of money my husband and I have ever given to any organization and probably always will be.

[msjones]

People with signs like that came and stood outside of my high school. There were, not to my knowledge, any abortions taking place inside my high school between math class and philosophy class and drama club. Heck, we didn't even have a school nurse to dispense band aids and mydol. It was...a strange use of their time.

I can see why they would choose a spot like that.

 

Photos like that would absolutely have the attention of all those impressionable teenagers going into a school that likely teaches liberal values...  They would see themselves as presenting an alternative point of view.

[msjones]

That, "Operation Rescue" crap came to my town about five years ago and took over the main three block drive through town. Five foot signs of aborted fetuses and people throwing plastic babies AT cars driving down the road. Yeah. Endangering MY kids whilst on our way to the grocery store really gives me empathy for you morons. Maybe they *think* they are doing good, but they aren't. They will kill someone totally innocent someday. So much for respecting all life. :laugh:

 

And let me tell you... the size of the donation my family made to PP the day after that protest is still the largest single sum of money my husband and I have ever given to any organization and probably always will be.

 

I've not heard of the plastic baby-throwing.  That was probably illegal.

 

But I do support their right to hold up the signs and am glad it's legal for them to do so.

[SKL]

Protests away from clinics don't seem to be on point, though.  I mean, that's free speech.  There are plenty of protests against all kinds of things, why not abortion?

 

I never understood the issue with people showing photos of an aborted fetus.  I mean, it is what it is.  If it's such a horrific thing to behold, then isn't that kind of the point?

[Mergath]

I can see why they would choose a spot like that.

 

Photos like that would absolutely have the attention of all those impressionable teenagers going into a school that likely teaches liberal values...  They would see themselves as presenting an alternative point of view.

 

I think the only thing it teaches them is not to engage with the crazies.  That's all I ever took away from those kinds of things, anyway.  

[Mergath]

Protests away from clinics don't seem to be on point, though.  I mean, that's free speech.  There are plenty of protests against all kinds of things, why not abortion?

 

I never understood the issue with people showing photos of an aborted fetus.  I mean, it is what it is.  If it's such a horrific thing to behold, then isn't that kind of the point?

 

It's a ridiculous, ineffective scare tactic.  It doesn't do anything at all to educate or support.  If these people truly want to reduce abortions, instead of showing graphic pictures of rare third trimester abortions, they'd be much better off holding up signs that give information for pregnant and scared teens.

[SKL]

It's a ridiculous, ineffective scare tactic.  It doesn't do anything at all to educate or support.  If these people truly want to reduce abortions, instead of showing graphic pictures of rare third trimester abortions, they'd be much better off holding up signs that give information for pregnant and scared teens.

 

Well I dunno whether it ever swayed a pregnant teenager or not.  I'm guessing it has the desired effect on some, not all who see it.

 

Personally I am hurt by signs that promote abortion "rights."  To me they essentially say "kill it," "it doesn't deserve to live," "me now at all costs," etc.  Pro-choice rallies can be venomous too, but they have the right.  So, to each his own.

 

ETA:  I also think that the "back-alley abortion" argument used by pro-choicers is also an emotional scare tactic.

[flyingiguana]

This may sound inflammatory, but I do believe that the reason many of the more vocal anti-abortion people are trying to make abortion illegal is solely to intimidate women.

 

If they truly wanted to end abortions, they would never waste their time trying to make it illegal. They'd be working toward making it as unnecessary as possible.

 

When abortions were illegal, it's not like there were no abortions. Obviously, making it illegal will not accomplish what the anti-abortion people SAY they would like (ie -- stopping abortions). I can only come up with 2 conclusions based on that. One is that they're deluded. The other possibility is that they really don't give a darn about fetuses, they just want to subjugate women. Because if they wanted to stop abortions, there are certainly much better ways than making it illegal. (Or making women's clinics into armed camps.)

[flyingiguana]

Well I dunno whether it ever swayed a pregnant teenager or not.  I'm guessing it has the desired effect on some, not all who see it.

 

Personally I am hurt by signs that promote abortion.  To me they essentially say "kill it," "it doesn't deserve to live," "me now at all costs," etc.  Pro-choice rallies can be venomous too, but they have the right.  So, to each his own.

No one is pro-abortion.

 

I don't know how many times that can be said before people understand that fact.

 

There's a world of difference between pro-choice and pro-abortion.

 

I have never seen a sign actually PROMOTING abortion. Have you truly seen such a thing?

[SeaConquest]

It's a ridiculous, ineffective scare tactic.  It doesn't do anything at all to educate or support.  If these people truly want to reduce abortions, instead of showing graphic pictures of rare third trimester abortions, they'd be much better off holding up signs that give information for pregnant and scared teens.

 

I cannot say whether the pictures are effective persuasion or not. But, I can say that I was pretty staunchly pro-choice before I actually witnessed abortions and aborted fetal cells first-hand. It was pretty clear to me that abortion is infanticide and not something I wanted to be cavalier about supporting politically. Today, I would basically counsel any woman to be proactive about avoiding unwanted pregnancy and, thus, abortion. I'm still politically pro-choice, tepidly, but in the safe, legal, and rare camp.

[unsinkable]

No one is pro-abortion.

 

I don't know how many times that can be said before people understand that fact.

 

There's a world of difference between pro-choice and pro-abortion.

 

I have never seen a sign actually PROMOTING abortion. Have you truly seen such a thing?

http://www.policymic.com/articles/35069/yes-i-m-pro-abortion

 

Yes, I'm Pro-Abortion

By Lauren Rankin

 

"It is not enough to be pro-choice"

 

"The statement that “I’m not pro-abortion, I’m pro-choice†is inherently defensive. Rather than embracing abortion as a viable and respected choice, it sidelines abortion; it delegitimizes that valid choice. By rhetorically sidelining abortion, we are distancing ourselves from that choice. If a woman wishes to have an abortion, then I support abortion."

[SKL]

I've heard many people speak of abortion as not only "a" choice, but "the only" right choice in certain situations.  Absolutely.  Often without regard to whether the person who is pregnant feels that way or not.

[Χά�ων]

Ok Now you have confused me. Either that or we live in completely different areas. I have not once heard of abortion spoken of like that but I have heard of it for adoption more times than I can count. Did you perchance mean adoption?

I've heard many people speak of abortion as not only "a" choice, but "the only" right choice in certain situations.  Absolutely.  Often without regard to whether the person who is pregnant feels that way or not.

 

[Moxie]

This may sound inflammatory, but I do believe that the reason many of the more vocal anti-abortion people are trying to make abortion illegal is solely to intimidate women.

 

If they truly wanted to end abortions, they would never waste their time trying to make it illegal. They'd be working toward making it as unnecessary as possible.

 

When abortions were illegal, it's not like there were no abortions. Obviously, making it illegal will not accomplish what the anti-abortion people SAY they would like (ie -- stopping abortions). I can only come up with 2 conclusions based on that. One is that they're deluded. The other possibility is that they really don't give a darn about fetuses, they just want to subjugate women. Because if they wanted to stop abortions, there are certainly much better ways than making it illegal. (Or making women's clinics into armed camps.)

Ahh, we've been caught!! All us pro-life people have just been faking our concern about babies. We've been trying to keep women in the kitchen from day one. You made us!!

[Aelwydd]

I've heard many people speak of abortion as not only "a" choice, but "the only" right choice in certain situations. Absolutely. Often without regard to whether the person who is pregnant feels that way or not.

Well, then those people are jerks. And if they were camping outside of pregnancy crisis centers and adoption agencies holding pictures of hungry, dirty, starving children or child sex slaves, or malformed children--or whatever ugly form unwanted pregnancy can take, you can bet I'd feel the same anger as I do towards PP clinic protesters.

[Slartibartfast]

No possible way.

It is less common only because of the pap smears that you felt were unnecessary. The US has one of the lowest cervical cancer rate in the world. In Africa and South American those rates are much more sobering.

 

Pap smears are saving lives.

 

Worldwide, cervical cancer is the third most common type of cancer in women. It is much less common in the United States because of the routine use of Pap smears.

 

 

Cervical cancer is the second most common cause of death in women worldwide.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001895/

 

 

 

 

Cervical cancer is the second most common type of cancer in women worldwide, with all cases linked to a sexually transmitted genital infection with the human papillomavirus (HPV). Due to poor access to screening and treatment services, more than 90% of deaths occur in women living in low- and middle- income countries.

 

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs334/en/

 

http://www.cancer.org/acs/groups/content/@epidemiologysurveilance/documents/document/acspc-027766.pdf

[SKL]

Ok Now you have confused me. Either that or we live in completely different areas. I have not once heard of abortion spoken of like that but I have heard of it for adoption more times than I can count. Did you perchance mean adoption?

 

No, I meant abortion.  You have never heard anyone say such a thing, really?  That is wonderful.

[Aelwydd]

Ahh, we've been caught!! All us pro-life people have just been faking our concern about babies. We've been trying to keep women in the kitchen from day one. You made us!!

Moxie, I could be mistaken but I took her to mean the leaders and developers of the movement. There are ideologues on both sides. It frustrates me that the debate is always framed in terms that alienate us from each other.

 

I understand that you and many others view this as right to life issue. I think you are right that it is a very deep issue that touches on how we define ourselves and what it means to be human.

[Mergath]

Well I dunno whether it ever swayed a pregnant teenager or not.  I'm guessing it has the desired effect on some, not all who see it.

 

Personally I am hurt by signs that promote abortion "rights."  To me they essentially say "kill it," "it doesn't deserve to live," "me now at all costs," etc.  Pro-choice rallies can be venomous too, but they have the right.  So, to each his own.

 

ETA:  I also think that the "back-alley abortion" argument used by pro-choicers is also an emotional scare tactic.

 

It's not an emotional scare tactic.  It's history.  A particularly dark and horrific part of our history that I, for one, would rather not see happen in my lifetime.  

[Mergath]

No, I meant abortion.  You have never heard anyone say such a thing, really?  That is wonderful.

 

I haven't ever heard that before either, and I've been a hardcore liberal and pro-choice for over a decade now.  That's the whole point of being pro-choice.  That it's a choice only the woman in question can make for herself.

[SeaConquest]

"I also think that the "back-alley abortion" argument used by pro-choicers is also an emotional scare tactic."

 

It's not an emotional scare tactic.  It's history.  A particularly dark and horrific part of our history that I, for one, would rather not see happen in my lifetime.  

 

This cannot be said enough. 

[SKL]

The quotes stating that cervical cancer is the second most common cause of death (or cancer deaths) in women worldwide are full of it.  Every source I googled says otherwise, except for the link posted above.

 

Ahead of those, for women, are infectious diseases, cardiovascular disease, accidental injuries, AIDS, death in childbirth, lung disease, digestive diseases, diabetes, psychiatric diseases, suicide/murder/war, breast cancer, lung cancer, colorectal cancer, stomach cancer, measles, Alzheimers, hunger, ....

[poppy]

I've heard many people speak of abortion as not only "a" choice, but "the only" right choice in certain situations.  Absolutely.  Often without regard to whether the person who is pregnant feels that way or not.

 

Chiming in as person #3 who has never once heard anyone say anything like this.  Never once. I am skeptical, to be honest, about the "many" people who talk about abortion that way.