Paul Walker has passed away

[Spy Car]

Huh? They were racing themselves? There was ONE car.

 

Yes, the driver was obviously speeding but there was no street racing going on.

 

You don't need two cars to be "street racing."

 

Bill

[Scrub Jay]

I was disappointed that Princess Di wasn't wearing a seat belt but it didn't change my sadness over her death or my acceptance of a good portion of the world's grief. 

[Scrub Jay]

You don't need two cars to be "street racing."

 

Bill

 

A simple Google search says otherwise.  I think you simply mean speeding.

 

[Kari C in SC]

And, by the way, only one person was driving. The passenger had no control over the speed of the driver.

I don't entirely agree. My son was a passenger in a car with a teenage girl driving. She was doing 85 in a 55. She had just been pulled over for doing this 45 minutes before and was released to my son (a soldier). I am STILL angry with my son for not telling her to QUIT driving like an idiot. His lack of judgement contributed to her lack of judgement and it killed them both.

[AlmiraGulch]

Except I did not say "too bad," did I?

 

I said it is time to say ENOUGH to street racing. It takes too many lives.

 

Bill

 

No, you did not use those exact words, but that is your implication.  You said this was not an accident, they are dead because someone was reckless.  The only thing you were missing were the words "too bad." 

 

I get that apparently street racing is a hot button issue for you.  Not one single person here has even suggested that it's a good practice, although there was no racing going on here anyway.  

 

But really, for the 4th time, I'll point out that you are victim blaming, because even if you don't believe the driver was a victim, surely the passenger, the person about whom this thread was initially started, was nothing but.

[Catwoman]

Except I did not say "too bad," did I?

 

I said it is time to say ENOUGH to street racing. It takes too many lives.

 

Bill

Except that this thread wasn't about street racing.

 

It was about two people dying in a car crash. People were expressing sadness over their death, not looking for reasons to blame them.

[AlmiraGulch]

I don't entirely agree. My son was a passenger in a car with a teenage girl driving. She was doing 85 in a 55. She had just been pulled over for doing this 45 minutes before and was released to my son (a soldier). I am STILL angry with my son for not telling her to QUIT driving like an idiot. His lack of judgement contributed to her lack of judgement and it killed them both.

 

Your son could have told her that all day long and she could have chosen to ignore him.  The driver always has 100% responsibility when they get behind the wheel of the car. 

[fraidycat]

How incredibly sad for those families. :(

 

I do have to agree with Bill, though. There are VERY FEW true "accidents". There are a great number of crashes, though.

 

These men died in a preventable crash. Not an accident. Lower speed could have prevented this tragedy.

 

I will still pray for their families. It IS a sad event, either way.

[Catwoman]

I don't entirely agree. My son was a passenger in a car with a teenage girl driving. She was doing 85 in a 55. She had just been pulled over for doing this 45 minutes before and was released to my son (a soldier). I am STILL angry with my son for not telling her to QUIT driving like an idiot. His lack of judgement contributed to her lack of judgement and it killed them both.

Please don't be angry with Tim. :(

 

For all you know, he might have been begging the girl to slow down and she wouldn't listen to him.

[Spy Car]

No, you did not use those exact words, but that is your implication. You said this was not an accident, they are dead because someone was reckless. The only thing you were missing were the words "too bad."

"Too bad" was "missing" because it was something I never said, right?

 

Two men are dead because they were very reckless. That is sad for their families. Every year it is sad for many families when their loved ones are killed by people who drive like maniacs on public streets. This was not an "accident." They died because they were recklessly speeding.

 

I get that apparently street racing is a hot button issue for you. Not one single person here has even suggested that it's a good practice, although there was no racing going on here anyway.

 

But really, for the 4th time, I'll point out that you are victim blaming, because even if you don't believe the driver was a victim, surely the passenger, the person about whom this thread was initially started, was nothing but.

People who perish as the direct result of criminal acts they chose to engage in are not "victims."

 

Bill

[Kari C in SC]

Please don't be angry with Tim. :(

 

For all you know, he might have been begging the girl to slow down and she wouldn't listen to him.

I appreciate your kindness, but I can assure you he loved speed and he was not telling her to slow down. He had only had his brand new car for 3 weeks and he had tickets to go with that shiny fast car. This is what makes it so easy to not hold a ton of anger against the girl driving. I know he could have done it to himself on that very same road.

[Catwoman]

I appreciate your kindness, but I can assure you he loved speed and he was not telling her to slow down. He had only had his brand new car for 3 weeks and he had tickets to go with that shiny fast car. This is what makes it so easy to not hold a ton of anger against the girl driving. I know he could have done it to himself on that very same road.

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

 

I'm so sorry, Kari.

[AlmiraGulch]

"Too bad" was "missing" because it was something I never said, right?

 

Two men are dead because they were very reckless. That is sad for their families. Every year it is sad for many families when their loved ones are killed by people who drive like maniacs on public streets. This was not an "accident." They died because they were recklessly speeding.

 

People who perish as the direct result of criminal acts they chose to engage in are not "victims."

 

Bill

 

You can play semantics all you want, but your implication is very clear.  We all can read.  You're essentially saying it again here with this post.  There's no sense in engaging further in the "No I didn't / Yes you did" back and forth, because you aren't changing your position and neither am I.  That seems clear.

 

Only one person was speeding.  The other was a passenger.  He was not driving and cannot be held accountable.  That man is the person about whom this thread was started, and he is nothing but a victim.

 

People speed every day.  Not everyone goes the speed that it seems this one man was driving, but not everyone is a professionally trained driver.  If you are a brand new driver and you go 74 in a 65, you are exceeding the speed limit and you likely do not have the experience to respond to potential threats as someone who has been driving for 25 years, and you may have an accident that results in a death where the experienced driver may not.  It does not mean that it was not an accident. It means that you overestimated your abilities. 

 

I'm not saying this guy was justified in his speed.  Not by a long shot. I'm saying that he apparently overestimated his abilities, with tragic results.  

[Spy Car]

You can play semantics all you want, but your implication is very clear. We all can read. You're essentially saying it again here with this post. There's no sense in engaging further in the "No I didn't / Yes you did" back and forth, because you aren't changing your position and neither am I. That seems clear.

 

Only one person was speeding. The other was a passenger. He was not driving and cannot be held accountable. That man is the person about whom this thread was started, and he is nothing but a victim.

 

People speed every day. Not everyone goes the speed that it seems this one man was driving, but not everyone is a professionally trained driver. If you are a brand new driver and you go 74 in a 65, you are exceeding the speed limit and you likely do not have the experience to respond to potential threats as someone who has been driving for 25 years, and you may have an accident that results in a death where the experienced driver may not. It does not mean that it was not an accident. It means that you overestimated your abilities.

 

I'm not saying this guy was justified in his speed. Not by a long shot. I'm saying that he apparently overestimated his abilities, with tragic results.

To rip a Porsche into unrecognizable shreds the rate of speed had to be very grossly excessive. This was not "speeding" in the sense of being 10 miles over the speed limit. Not even close.

 

It is plain that this "experienced driver" was in way over his head. That means they were going stupidly and dangerously fast. This sort of recklessness puts everyone on the road at risk.

 

Bill

[Catwoman]

This started as a kindhearted thread where Paul Walker's fans (and anyone else who felt sad at his death and the death of his friend) could express their sadness, and it has turned into an ugly episode of The Blame Game.

 

Thanks for nothing, Bill. :glare:

 

There's a time and a place for ranting about street racing, but IMO, this thread wasn't it.

[AlmiraGulch]

To rip a Porsche into unrecognizable shreds the rate of speed had to be very grossly excessive. This was not "speeding" in the sense of being 10 miles over the speed limit. Not even close.

 

It is plain that this "experienced driver" was in way over his head. That means they were going stupidly and dangerously fast. This sort of recklessness puts everyone on the road at risk.

 

Bill

 

With professional training, someone accustomed to driving at tremendous rates of speed that most of us cannot imagine can usually handle their vehicle.  In this case, he clearly could not, but it is not the same as if you or I were attempting to do so.  It was not necessarily unreasonable for him to think that he could maintain control, where it would be for most of us.  I see it as analogous to the new driver v. experienced driver scenario I proposed, particularly at highway speeds. 

 

That said, as you have pointed out, this was an industrial road, not a racetrack, and no, he should not have been driving as fast as we've all reasonably deduced he was driving.  Not a single person is saying that there is zero culpability.

 

But again, "they" were not driving way too fast.  The driver was.  And there was no one else on the road to endanger.  Why do you keep glossing over those two things?

 

Never mind.  Rhetorical question.  You and I will never agree on this particular issue, although we agree on most, and I have to get up in 4 hours to go to the airport, so I'm bowing out.  Until next time......

[Spy Car]

This started as a kindhearted thread where Paul Walker's fans (and anyone else who felt sad at his death and the death of his friend) could express their sadness, and it has turned into an ugly episode of The Blame Game.

 

Thanks for nothing, Bill. :glare:

 

There's a time and a place for ranting about street racing, but IMO, this thread wasn't it.

Sorry, but I disagree. I think this is the perfect time to discuss the legacy and tragic consequences of street racing. If not now, when?

 

Bill

[unsinkable]

Sorry, but I disagree. I think this is the perfect time to discuss the legacy and tragic consequences of street racing. If not now, when?

 

Bill

In your own thread, perhaps? A spin off?

[Spy Car]

With professional training, someone accustomed to driving at tremendous rates of speed that most of us cannot imagine can usually handle their vehicle. In this case, he clearly could not, but it is not the same as if you or I were attempting to do so.

Which means—by necessity—that he was going frightenly fast. Beyond reckless. Right?

 

 

It was not necessarily unreasonable for him to think that he could maintain control, where it would be for most of us. I see it as analogous to the new driver v. experienced driver scenario I proposed, particularly at highway speeds.

How in tarnation is it OK for a professional race car diver to press (beyond) the limits of his skills on a public roadway? This I do not get. People get killed by this sort of recklessness.

 

That said, as you have pointed out, this was an industrial road, not a racetrack, and no, he should not have been driving as fast as we've all reasonably deduced he was driving. Not a single person is saying that there is zero culpability.

There is 100% culpability. These men died due to extremely reckless behavior.

 

But again, "they" were not driving way too fast. The driver was. And there was no one else on the road to endanger. Why do you keep glossing over those two things?

No one else was on a public road? This was not a closed track. Only two people in one car died (this time). What if they had plowed into a car filled with children? Think that doesn't happen?

 

I don't understand how people seem to be excusing this behavior.

 

Bill

[Farrar]

You guys, Bill's so right.  It's a tragedy, but if the facts are as they seem to be now, it's not an accident.  They were reckless and in the wake of a tragedy like this it exactly the time to point out how dangerous this sort of behavior is.  I feel terrible for their families, but one good way for the families to deal with their grief might be to speak out against speeding or reckless driving.

 

When I was teaching middle school, I used to have to really make it clear to kids that there's a big difference between when you're doing something safely and things go wrong and when you're doing something stupid and things go wrong.  In the first case, while there may be consequences, I, as a teacher, and the school, didn't punish.  But in the second, we did.  Because it doesn't really matter that you didn't "mean" to break a window when you threw that ball inside.  You should have known better.  This discussion reminds me so much of that, just on a bigger level with deadly consequences.

[LibraryLover]

I have never heard of this man, or the show, but I can see this is incredibly sad and horrible. I feel for the families. That poor teen who witnessed it. That is horrific.

 

They crashed because they were speeding. As sad and awful as that is. :(  And it is sad and awful.  That's not blaming the dead, it's pointing out the obvious. That car is a heap of ashes. I'm glad they were not on the highway. That they didn't threaten innocents on a main road does say something about their character.  That poor teen boy.

[Melissa in Australia]

 

People who perish as the direct result of criminal acts they chose to engage in are not "victims."

 

Bill

Bill

thank you so much for posting this. I needed to hear someone say this to me over something completely unrelated to this thread but rather at a more personal level. I just needed to substitute the word perish to suffer and  everything shifts into perspective

 thank you so much.

 

 

You never know when you write something on a forum how it will assist someone with something unrelated

[kitten18]

Well, I think it's one thing to point out that they were going way too fast. It's quite another to say, and oh yeah, his movies sucked.

[kitten18]

This started as a kindhearted thread where Paul Walker's fans (and anyone else who felt sad at his death and the death of his friend) could express their sadness, and it has turned into an ugly episode of The Blame Game.

 

Thanks for nothing, Bill. :glare:

 

There's a time and a place for ranting about street racing, but IMO, this thread wasn't it.

I saw Paul Walkers dad on the local news tonight, it was heartbreaking.

[Joker]

My dad and brother died because a kid did a rolling stop through a stop sign. I don't hate the kid or wish him ill but it's not wrong of me to point out that things could have ended differently if he had been more responsible and careful. I feel for him but I do use that experience to point out to others, especially teens, that they are not invincible and they should be careful.

 

What's coming out right now says these adults should have been more careful. Paul Walker was a friend of the driver and has supposedly driven with him many times so knew how he drove. This is how they lived their lives and unfortunately how they died.

[fraidycat]

In the news report I read, they were not on a closed road, even if in an industrial section of town. An eyewitness to the crash stated that they had just gone past the car. A difference of 30ish seconds and a second, innocent vehicle/driver could have been taken out, too.

[Spy Car]

Well, I think it's one thing to point out that they were going way too fast. It's quite another to say, and oh yeah, his movies sucked.

The francise "sucked" for glorifying illegal street racing. The comment was not a critical take on the acting, directing, or writing in the Fast and Furious movies, but—rather—that they glamorize exactly the sort of stupid and reckless behavior that got their star killed.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

I have never heard of this man, or the show, but I can see this is incredibly sad and horrible. I feel for the families. That poor teen who witnessed it. That is horrific.

 

They crashed because they were speeding. As sad and awful as that is. :( And it is sad and awful. That's not blaming the dead, it's pointing out the obvious. That car is a heap of ashes. I'm glad they were not on the highway. That they didn't threaten innocents on a main road does say something about their character. That poor teen boy.

Except that they were on a public street. There are two schools right there, many businesses, and a Walmart right around the corner (on the busiest shopping weekend of the year).

 

They did threaten innocent lives. Don't be mistaken about that. This did not take place on some sort of "closed track." Hercules St. is a public road in Valencia.

 

Bill

[Catwoman]

In your own thread, perhaps? A spin off?

:iagree:

 

Yes. This. Exactly.

[TXBeth]

Even though Bill's comments are insensitive and tactless, particularly on a thread started to express grief/sympathy, I think his main point is something many of us have thought.

I have also seen the ridiculous opposite extreme, as in a quote from someone else present at the crash (a friend of the driver I think).

 

"It's strange," Torp said. "(Walker) made his movies. He lived his life and he died fast and furious today. He loved speed, he loved cars, and he had to die this way. He died in a very fast car with his friend."

 

As if this death were somehow fitting and even noble....what idiocy. I console myself by thinking the guy was grieving and trying to process and not thinking straight.

[LibraryLover]

 This did not take place on some sort of "closed track." Hercules St. Is a public road in Valencia.

 

Bill

 

I did not realize it was Hercules St.  :(

 

That was wrong on every count.

 

I feel for their families. I am glad that innocent people were not also killed. I am so sorry that the driver's son has to live with this.

[StaceyinLA]

I just wanted to say that I am very sad about this. Paul Walker has been my "teen" crush for the last 10 years or so. I wasn't overly fond of his acting (though I LOVED Eight Below), because he usually didn't act in the type movie I enjoy, but I felt like he was doing some good in the world. He seemed to be very distanced from the typical lifestyle of the rich and famous, down to earth, and a real man's man. He brought no particular attention to the good things he was doing (just got right in there and did it), and he never got negative media attention. To top it off, he was beautiful to look at. 

 

 

However, I believe the most tragic and heartbreaking thing about his death is that it was likely 100% preventable. 

[lovinmomma]

See, and then there are factors like this: http://www.tmz.com/2013/12/02/paul-walker-roger-rodas-deadly-accident-porsche-malfunction-fluid-leak/ that really make me feel like we should reserve judgement until we have all the facts and at the very least until his body is in the ground and his family has had time to grieve. There are certainly lessons to be learned here, but there is also a time and a place for those lessons.

[Kathryn]

See, and then there are factors like this: http://www.tmz.com/2013/12/02/paul-walker-roger-rodas-deadly-accident-porsche-malfunction-fluid-leak/ that really make me feel like we should reserve judgement until we have all the facts and at the very least until his body is in the ground and his family has had time to grieve. There are certainly lessons to be learned here, but there is also a time and a place for those lessons.

A loss of power steering fluid does not cause one to speed, or even to lose control of the car. Lots of people drove cars before power steering was invented. It just takes more strength.

[TXBeth]

A loss of power steering fluid does not cause one to speed, or even to lose control of the car. Lots of people drove cars before power steering was invented. It just takes more strength.

It doesn't cause speeding, but if you are driving a car with power steering and it stops working as you are going around a curve, it could definitely cause you to lose control of the car.

[Kathryn]

It doesn't cause speeding, but if you are driving a car with power steering and it stops working as you are going around a curve, it could definitely cause you to lose control of the car.

From the LA Times article I just read: "Speed may have been a factor in the crash, which occurred about 3:30 p.m. on Hercules Street, a normally quiet road with a 45-mph speed limit, authorities said. Walker was apparently the passenger in the 2005 red Porsche Carrera GT.

 

The four-lane road up the hilly street has signs warning drivers to slow down as they approach an uphill curve near the site of the accident. "

 

I just looked up the street on Google Maps. Speed limits range from 15mph to 45mph on that street. Comparing crash photos to the street view on google, they hit the post holding the 35mph sign during a small straight part in the road after a curve and just feet before the warning to slow down to 15mph for another curve. There is absolutely no way that level of damage could have occurred from traveling between 15 and 35 mph should your power steering fluid have leaked and run out at that very moment.

[extendedforecast]

You know what? I know that as the OP or any other member of this forum, I can't control the content of this thread. However, I can politely request that we limit this thread to posts that share the sentiment of the original post. If you want to discuss/debate the culpability of the driver and passenger, please start a spin off.

[unsinkable]

You know what? I know that as the OP or any other member of this forum, I can't control the content of this thread. However, I can politely request that we limit this thread to posts that share the sentiment of the original post. If you want to discuss/debate the culpability of the driver and passenger, please start a spin off.

I agree.

[Heather in Neverland]

I suppose I am old-fashioned but my mom always taught me not to speak ill of the dead. Can we at least wait until the body is cold before we start ripping the guy's character to shreds? If for no other reason than out of respect for his family? Sheesh.

[Scrub Jay]

I suppose I am old-fashioned but my mom always taught me not to speak ill of the dead. Can we at least wait until the body is cold before we start ripping the guy's character to shreds? If for no other reason than out of respect for his family? Sheesh.

 

No kidding.  Very crass.

 

Here is the charity that Paul Walker founded: ROWW  Looks like pretty amazing stuff.

 

He was known to be a good guy from what I have heard from friends (my husband is in the industry and so are many friends).  Recognizing him for the good he's done or just simply feeling sad for a life (2 lives) cut short too soon does not mean one supports speeding.

 

[Scrub Jay]

I still haven't seen anyone provide information on who they were racing.

 

If a person wants to come to this thread and ruin its intent then at least complain about what actually happened and use the correct terminology.  Speeding does not equate racing.

[unsinkable]

I started a thread about the dangers of street racing.

 

I am hoping out of kindness people who'd like to talk about it will go over there.

[Happy]

I still haven't seen anyone provide information on who they were racing.

 

If a person wants to come to this thread and ruin its intent then at least complain about what actually happened and use the correct terminology.  Speeding does not equate racing.

 

What they must have been doing to cause such horrific damage to that car was not simply speeding...they were living the Fast and Furious life.

 

I'm sorry they are dead. I **liked** Paul Walker...but this is just as senseless a way to die as if you put an overdose of a toxic substance in your body in order to get high. Or if you played Russian Roulette with a loaded gun.

 

The road was a 45mph speed limit--and it was night. My mind boggles at that.

 

There are tracks where you can pay a fee and speed to your heart's content. Texas Motor speedway does it every Friday night in an effort to keep the Fast and Furious crowd off regular streets.

[Scrub Jay]

What they must have been doing to cause such horrific damage to that car was not simply speeding...they were living the Fast and Furious life.

 

But it still wasn't street racing.  And it was simply speeding.  Probably insane speeding, obviously crazy dangerous.  But it still falls under the speeding category.  Posters who try and pretend it was something else (i.e., street racing) are creating a flase story of what occurred.

 

But, no matter, a memorial thread should be left as such.

 

[Spy Car]

But it still wasn't street racing. And it was simply speeding. Probably insane speeding, obviously crazy dangerous. But it still falls under the speeding category. Posters who try and pretend it was something else (i.e., street racing) are creating a flase story of what occurred.

 

But, no matter, a memorial thread should be left as such.

 

They were racing. They were not "in a race" with another car, but it was still "racing."

 

They pushed beyond the limits of a highly race-modified Porsche on an open public street. This was not simply speeding. The car is an unrecognizable wreck. This does not happen from simply driving a little too fast.

 

It is street racing whether there is one car or two (or more).

 

Bill

[albeto.]

nm 

 

Edited December 2, 2013 by Moderator
The personal attacks are annoying and break board rules.

[[email protected]]

Really? You guys are bickering about this? 

 

Take it to PM.

 

Moderator