Are fingers really that bad?

[smudge]

My oldest went to PS- K and 1st grade. (ADD diagnosis earlier this year). She is now 2nd grade and we are working through MM2. I am surprised by how she still struggles with simple 3+2, 5-4 kind of problems. I have tried to get her to use her fingers if the abacus is being used by my other kid (who is learning +/- 10s). Now the facts that DD7 struggles with are usually answered by DD5 (who seems to be a bit mathy). I found out today that PS teacher would not allow use of fingers. I said NO MORE! You are in my class now and I say PUT 'EM UP! After that we screamed thru the rest of the page, and her with a big smile on her face.

Are using fingers truly that awful?

 

PS- on a side note, she seems to be a different kid these past few months since starting HS. She seems calmer and kinder, even my family has remarked on it. Poor thing was having no end of trouble that I am just now getting a clue about. :(

 

[Mandylubug]

I allow mine to use their fingers or any other manipulative of their choice. After they use it so many times, they start to remember the facts. I also try to have them work on xtramath.org at least 3 times a week if not daily. I have seen some improvement using that program. However, mine are all visual learners, need to know the whole picture and just do not do well with rote memory. I've come to accept it. That is what works for my kids. YMMV

[alisoncooks]

My DD wants to use her fingers for something like 5+3 (and will try to hold up 5 and 3 and count them all).  I try to encourage her to use some of the other techniques we've learned (doubles, counting on, counting up from the subtrahend -- is that the right word?).  I let her use her fingers to count on, provided she puts the bigger number in her head (and THEN count on 1, 2, 3 with her fingers to help).

[shinyhappypeople]

I believe in using whatever works.  If their chosen process gets them to the correct answer in a reasonable amount of time, then call it good and don't worry about it. 

[Ellie]

You know, the sooner dc learn their basic arithmetic facts so that they don't have to take the brain power or the time to figure out the fingers, the sooner they'll be ready for more advanced math, and the easier it will be for them.

 

One of the reasons I like Rod & Staff arithmetic is that the first three years are spent learning those basic arithmetic facts, in a variety of ways, so that the children are ready for math. :-)

[alef]

Why would fingers be different from any other manipulative? At that age manipulatives are entirely appropriate. 

[Tonia]

No, there's nothing terrible about using fingers to count. BUT at some point they need to just know the basics (adding single digits in their head) without having to count it out on their fingers each and every time.

[Farrar]

Yeah, I agree with others.  Not terrible and I don't bother trying to discourage it.  But I do try to introduce other strategies and ways to think about it.  And the faster they get beyond fingers, the better.

 

Have you considered using Cuisenaire rods or an abacus?

[smudge]

Thanks all. I guess I am thinking that using her fingers now, will (hopefully) help her to start seeing things. I just get a lot of blank looks and "I dont knooooooow" when I say 2+7, 3+2, etc

 

[Arcadia]

I found out today that PS teacher would not allow use of fingers.

Here the public and private school teachers discourage use of fingers because it only goes up to 10. Kindergarten covers up to 30 and they do double digit addition by drawing and regrouping. 1st grade covers up to 100 and uses number line and place value charts..

So the teachers prefer kids to draw number lines than use their fingers.

[Laura Corin]

Fingers are fine.  Both my boys used them until the day they didn't need to.  I still sometimes use my fingers.

 

L

[Ellie]

Thanks all. I guess I am thinking that using her fingers now, will (hopefully) help her to start seeing things. I just get a lot of blank looks and "I dont knooooooow" when I say 2+7, 3+2, etc

 

See, even at her age, she should *know* 2+7 without counting on her fingers.

 

It isn't that fingers are "bad;" it's that they are bad when the instruction doesn't include learning such basic things as 2+7.

[Arcadia]

But if you think of everything in terms of 10s...why would 30 be a problem? Unless they are just teaching rote memorization.

Because my neighbor who was my kid's public school classmate did her two digit addition using her fingers and could not do it. What she did was count up using her fingers and she got stuck.

Some kids need to count M&Ms (or use base 10 blocks) to visualise, some are okay with fingers.

[tabinfl]

I'm currently allowing my kids to use fingers when we do SM lessons (currently working on 1B), as I want them to focus on the concepts during that time. I have them do math fact drill at a different time of day using reflexmath.com -- so far, so good as I see more and more of the facts they're memorizing during the drill come out in the SM work.

[Korrale]

Nothing wrong with counting fingers in my opinion. I was always good at Maths. I received many high distinctions in national competitions. I could always do pretty decent mental math. AND I used my fingers.

To this day (and honesty I don't use math much at all) I still use my fingers. If I am given 5+3 I can answer swiftly but three fingers still twitch, although barely. The advantage is, if I am tired or multitasking I can always use my fingers.

[kiwik]

My son went to school able to count on and back and after 6 weeks couldn't do 2 + 3 without using his fingers.

[OneStepAtATime]

I agree, fingers are fine and actually are usually helpful when kids are really young for visualizing math.  Number lines are also very helpful (usually).  If she needs to use fingers, then let her.  If she can use additional manipulatives, such as base 10 blocks and cusinaire rods, that will probably help even more.  Being able to get beyond using fingers to using mental math and just "knowing" numbers is much faster and more efficient, but the basic number sense has to be there first.  For some kids, counting on fingers HAS to happen first for them to get a basic number sense.  

 

I have found out, though, from a great deal of research when my oldest could not stop counting on fingers, that for others it doesn't matter if they started out counting on fingers or not, they don't have a basic sense of numbers and no amount of counting on fingers (or anything else) is going to help that.  For these kids (considered dyscalculic) they are missing the ability to subitize (and possibly other gaps as well).  If your child is still having difficulty with basic math after years of trying, and after being presented with basic arithmetic in many forms still cannot grasp 3+2=5 quickly, without counting on fingers, then they may be struggling with subitization.  

 

See if the child can recognize quickly that there are 2, 3 or 4 dots on a page or a die or a dominoe.  To really be able to function in basic math, you need to be able to "recognize" how many people are in a room, or how many dots or cows or pigs, etc. are on a page, or how many pennies are laying on the table (up to 5) without actually counting each individual item.  If they cannot recognize immediately, without counting, items up to 5, they may struggle with subitization and therefore will continue to struggle with "knowing" basic math facts and need explicit instruction in subitization.  This is something that most of us just have the ability to do from birth.  When you don't, math can become quite challenging but most math programs assume you already have this basic ability and do not address it.  Ronit Bird has some great books on helping with learning and mastering basic math facts that also include teaching subitization.

 

The Math U See program is a great follow-up to the subitization exercises from Ronit Bird.  It uses manipulatives quite a bit and gives kids a good "visual" sense of math.  I wish I had started my children with Math U See and the Ronit Bird books when they were still little, at least up through basic addition, subtraction and multiplication/division.

 

Math on the Level is another really great program that gives you lots of practical application and real world math, but subitization is not really addressed explicitly.  Kids with basic math sense issues may need a more explicit approach first.  Math on the Level is a really amazing math program, though, and can be used with multiple kids at the same time.  It is a one time purchase and you get all the materials you need for teaching math through 8th grade, along with a great.charting system for keeping track of all mastered math concepts and how to quickly review those concepts each week so no information is lost through disuse.  This system can be paired with other systems with just a little imagination and works really well for making certain that there are no gaps in math concepts.

[Tonia]

Thanks all. I guess I am thinking that using her fingers now, will (hopefully) help her to start seeing things. I just get a lot of blank looks and "I dont knooooooow" when I say 2+7, 3+2, etc

 

So that's where you start - she doesn't know 2+7 when you ask so perhaps she's not ready for the 'abstract' concept so work on them in a concrete way. Get some counters (or an abacus) and make a line of three. Ask her how many there are without counting. Then do four and repeat. No counting. Get to five (five is easy to remember because there is 1 in the middle with 2 on each side so there's no need to count). Once she has 3-5 down start on 6 and higher but leave a space between the group of 5 and the next group. Again, no counting. She can see the counters grouped on the table but needs to work on not counting them individually each time. Teach her to see numbers in groups.

[Tiramisu]

My oldest went to PS- K and 1st grade. (ADD diagnosis earlier this year). She is now 2nd grade and we are working through MM2. I am surprised by how she still struggles with simple 3+2, 5-4 kind of problems. I have tried to get her to use her fingers if the abacus is being used by my other kid (who is learning +/- 10s). Now the facts that DD7 struggles with are usually answered by DD5 (who seems to be a bit mathy). I found out today that PS teacher would not allow use of fingers. I said NO MORE! You are in my class now and I say PUT 'EM UP! After that we screamed thru the rest of the page, and her with a big smile on her face.

Are using fingers truly that awful?

 

PS- on a side note, she seems to be a different kid these past few months since starting HS. She seems calmer and kinder, even my family has remarked on it. Poor thing was having no end of trouble that I am just now getting a clue about. :(

 

I don't think fingers are bad as a temporary measure if they relieve frustration.

 

I have a thought, and I could be wrong. If she has an ADD diagnosis what that usually means is that her working memory is low. If you've done psycho-educational or neuropsychological testing, you would have those results. When you have lower working memory, you can hold less in your head at once than people with higher working memory. So, if your dd has to work things out on her fingers, it can take the more of the limited brain space away from figuring out the problem. That's not going to make a difference in second grade math but it could make a difference in long division, for example, when she has to keep track of a lot more in her head. For this reason, I, personally, would aim for long-term automaticity in math facts, so that the brain doesn't actually have to *think* about them any more; they will just there when they need them, which is important as math gets more complex with multi-step problems. One of mine did not gain that automaticity easily at all, definitely not by 2nd grade. We wound up working those facts everyday for YEARS until they eventually became automatic. I found a program, CLE, that incorporated math fact practice in every lesson in about three different ways and it was very helpful.

 

To reassure you, my dd could barely remember facts from one day to the next in second grade. By fourth grade, things were much, much better, and by sixth grade, she had no problems at all. She was still always slightly ahead in math because we kept moving forward while working on the facts and did great on standardized tests.

 

Practice facts every day with flash cards but for no more than five minutes at a time, and try to get some other practice in, too. If it's not built into your program, use a speed drill sheet once a day, but DO NOT time her.

 

Slower processing, like lower working memory is frequently found in ADD. Kids with slower processing can get overwhelmed and frustrated easily despite having high intelligence. That's probably why she is feeling so much calmer now. She has the emotional room to be kinder, too, because she's much less stressed. School environments today are overwhelming and full of pressure and are not good for these kids. I have one who thrives on that, but two who definitely did not. It's good that you are seeing these connections now because they will be useful in how you plan your schooling in the future to optimize her learning.  :grouphug:

[smudge]

Wow Tiramisu! That was amazing. You totally hit every nail on the head and described her to a "T"! She did timed math facts in PS last year and was SO discouraged and depressed that she could never go as fast as the other kids and there fore could not progress to the next level. She has a very low tolerance fo frustration. She does like to use the abacus, but I think I will throw a daily math facts sheet at her, UNtimed of course

[Tiramisu]

The abacus is great because that also helps build neural pathways. People who have used the abacus for a long time, compute in their heads with their mental abacus. 

 

Any variety of things that appeal to her in practicing facts will help. I remember hearing kids retain more information when they are exposed to it a greater number of times, but also in a greater number of places. Do the facts in different fun ways, in different places. Computer games, on the trampoline, while swinging. My youngest has her own unique quirks and often likes do do math hanging from monkey bars. Before that, it was in the dark with a flashlight. It drives me crazy but it gets done easier that way. Only people who have these types of kids will know what I'm talking about.  :tongue_smilie:

[EKS]

Fingers are fine.  But be sure that your end goal is no fingers.  My adult tutoring student is still using fingers for addition and subtraction and skip counting for multiplication, and while he is pretty quick at it, it does slow him down and takes his attention away from the problem at hand, which sometimes causes him to lose track of what he's doing (and slows him down further).

[beishan]

Personally I have no issue with fingers as long as the child is not counting one finger by one finger to add or subtract. I use my fingers sometimes to help memorizing some calculation as well and my math and calculation speed is very good (typical Asian student). My son is also in 2nd and his PS teacher is trying to get them finish 60 single digit addition questions with some regrouping within 10 minutes (the goal is get them finish 60 questions in 5 minutes) so I have to ask him to put fingers down as much as he can in order to speed up. He is ok without fingers for addition within 5 and ok with any single digit plus 9 (he figures the pattern). However, for single digit number plus 6, 7, or 8 with regrouping, he still needs his fingers at this moment; otherwise, he will lose focus. He also has trouble with double 7 (7+7) and double 8 (8+8). I am still trying to find a way to help him on that. Also, I found some strange thing that my son did faster with horizonal format than vertical. His teacher is using vertical for test.

[Tiramisu]

Personally I have no issue with fingers as long as the child is not counting one finger by one finger to add or subtract. I use my fingers sometimes to help memorizing some calculation as well and my math and calculation speed is very good (typical Asian student). My son is also in 2nd and his PS teacher is trying to get them finish 60 single digit addition questions with some regrouping within 10 minutes (the goal is get them finish 60 questions in 5 minutes) so I have to ask him to put fingers down as much as he can in order to speed up. He is ok without fingers for addition within 5 and ok with any single digit plus 9 (he figures the pattern). However, for single digit number plus 6, 7, or 8 with regrouping, he still needs his fingers at this moment; otherwise, he will lose focus. He also has trouble with double 7 (7+7) and double 8 (8+8). I am still trying to find a way to help him on that. Also, I found some strange thing that my son did faster with horizonal format than vertical. His teacher is using vertical for test.

 

Interesting. I suspect that the reason he goes faster with horizontally written problems is that his eyes have more practice moving that way, if he's mostly reading English or a "Western" language. If this were ever seemed to be a real issue, a developmental optometrist can assess how quickly eyes work both horizontally and vertically, comparing both results to norms to determine if there is a problem.

[maize]

One thing that might help move from fingers to mental math is learning to see the numbers in terms of fives and tens. Have your DD hold up the five fingers on one hand and ask what number they make. Then ask her to hold up one finger on the other hand and ask what is five plus one. Continue with the numbers up to ten. You want her to be able to think of numbers in chunks. If she is adding 8+7 and can immediately see that eight is five and three and seven is five and two she can put the fives together to make ten and the three and two to make five and have fifteen. Or she take two from the seven to make eight into ten and have five left to make fifteen. This kind of thinking will lead to a deep conceptual understanding of and ability to manipulate numbers.

[mathmarm]

Counting on your fingers isn't wrong, but they should be used as a tool. Teach her to be efficient and purposeful about her counting, no matter what prop she is using. Encourage her to 'work smarter--not harder.' and take time to study the relationship and spend time thinking about the numbers and.

 

The end goals is to be weaned from using her fingers (or any prop, really) and to move on to knowing the math facts.

[Eagle]

My ds used to count on his fingers, but stopped shortly after we started using Cuisinaire rods as manipulatives.

[Leav97]

What's the difference between counting M&M's and counting fingers?  At least your fingers are always available.  Use what works for her and slowly (5 min a day) start working on learning the facts.  The more she uses them the faster she will learn them.

[Mandy in TN]

Using fingers for math is equivalent to encouraging a child to suck his thumb. It may initially allow him to self sooth, but it is a difficult habit to break. After all, you can't take away his fingers or thumbs.

 

I tutored a girl who had been allowed to use her finger to add/ subtract and skip count to multiply. Do you have any idea how long it takes to do long division using this method? At first she may have thought math was easier using these methods, but by the time I worked with her she was frustrated. It may have taken some time, but in the long run it would have been less frustrating to work on math facts as she went along than to wait.

 

If necessary to avoid frustration, use manipulatives while working on a problem set. Outside of the math lesson work on memorizing math facts.

 

Mandy, who would have been the teacher who didn't allow fingers