Father does his 13yo daughter's homework for a week

[Sahamamama]

Why do I feel like my parents are fighting and Hoppy is the eldest sibling, trying to soothe them?  :lol:

 

I'm trying to picture the two of them married.... 

[Haiku]

If they can only do pre-calc

This made me laugh. I'm wondering how I'm going to get my son through algebra. He has learning delays and processing issues. Pre-calc really isn't on my radar for him.

[Jean in Newcastle]

And some are advocating 2 hours a day for elementary school. That, I think, is unwise.

 

 

Bill, you keep saying this but most (I won't say all, of course) of the posts I've seen advocate the 2 hours a day for lower elementary only (K - 2) and then they are only counting seatwork.  A lot of the discovery type things you rightly were so excited about with your son's school are things that many homeschoolers don't think of as "school" per se but of a rich active learning environment.  When my kids were that age I compared what they did to the private school for gifted (one of the prestigious environments with a price-tag to match) and we really did all of that but because it was just part of life, I tended to not talk about it.  It was because I had taught in that environment that I was able to go through and think about the fancy names that we would call all of our "learning centers" and "projects" in that school environment and see that we really were providing all that at home but without having to be quite so deliberate about it.  

 

Now - if people are still doing that after 2nd grade or in a desert like environment (learning wise), then I would 100% agree with you.  

[Spy Car]

Bill, you keep saying this but most (I won't say all, of course) of the posts I've seen advocate the 2 hours a day for lower elementary only (K - 2) and then they are only counting seatwork. A lot of the discovery type things you rightly were so excited about with your son's school are things that many homeschoolers don't think of as "school" per se but of a rich active learning environment. When my kids were that age I compared what they did to the private school for gifted (one of the prestigious environments with a price-tag to match) and we really did all of that but because it was just part of life, I tended to not talk about it. It was because I had taught in that environment that I was able to go through and think about the fancy names that we would call all of our "learning centers" and "projects" in that school environment and see that we really were providing all that at home but without having to be quite so deliberate about it.

 

Now - if people are still doing that after 2nd grade or in a desert like environment (learning wise), then I would 100% agree with you.

If 2 hours is really two hours of this, plus two hours of something else, and two hours of something more. Then you've got six hours. Which sounds more like it for lower elementary. But 2 hours in to out? No.

 

I've never said it all had to be (or ought to be) so called "seat-work." I'm all for having more fun learning than being chained to a desk. But a day should include more than 2 hours of active learning time (not including time spent playing in drainage ditches).

 

That still leaves time to make forts and engage in free play.

 

I think we agree ;)

 

Bill

[Jean in Newcastle]

I think we agree ;)

 

 

I think we do too.

[chiguirre]

This made me laugh. I'm wondering how I'm going to get my son through algebra. He has learning delays and processing issues. Pre-calc really isn't on my radar for him.

I've got 2 sons who I don't expect to go to college. I'd be pleased if GW could find work in a sheltered workshop. I'll be thrilled if Geezle can live independently. Those are my goals for them, pre-calc doesn't enter the equation. I'm shooting for AP Calc BC for Trinqueta because I think she can do it. We're all over the map educationally, but I do try to make sure each kid is reaching his or her potential whether or not they're the 2%.

[ElizabethB]

Lot's of kids don't graduate. But they are mostly those who've never been reached, not "burn-out cases." The schools are not THAT intense. They take more work that one could do in 2 hours a day at home—that is for sure—but this guy is grossly exaggerating.

 

 

I lived in the same district, or nearby, I think.  The homework load there was reasonable.  While there, I tutored a 4th grade Marquez Elementary student in math and a 2nd grade student in phonics.  I also sometimes helped them with their homework and saw how much homework they had.  While I mostly knew people with elementary aged children, the workload for older siblings in the area seemed reasonable as well.  

 

In the schools near us in our last location in Illinois, the homework load was much worse.  This was an 8 school elementary, 9 middle school and high school (from Great Schools ratings) with many children attending college.  During high stakes test years, most children have 3 - 5 hours of homework until after testing.  My daughter's friend had a more balanced homework load in 3rd grade, generally 30 - 40 min. Also, it was reasonable homework, not busywork or fill in the blank or things that are better covered in school. (Cursive, short editing assignment, a few reasonable math problems but not 50, etc.)  In 4th grade, (a big test year) we did not see her except on Saturdays or occasionally a few minutes on a Thursday or a Friday.  After the test in early spring we finally got to play with her during the week again.  Her dad made the hilarious comment, "Your children are so much more socialized than mine.  They are always playing with [their homeschool friends.]"  (He knew their names and said their names, they played with them when not a testing year.)

 

For middle school and high school in Illinois, the homework load was intense even in non-testing grades.  We had neighbor friends in middle and high schools and they had 2 - 4 hours of homework a night.  They were fairly fast workers, too, it was a lot of homework.  Mom had worked as a teacher and they were smart.  

 

In Virginia in a top district in the state, the kids also had this level of homework.  It was a lot more homework than in the schools in the Pacific Palisades/Santa Monica area where we lived.  (I don't think CA parents would put up with it, honestly.)  Actually, some parents did not in Illinois.  There was a family down the street that just didn't do homework, we didn't know them well enough to figure out the ramifications of that or how that worked out for them...

 

Where we lived in Little Rock, the homework load was reasonable but the schools were pretty bad, most military families either lived on base and went to the base school or lived where we lived and paid for private school, private schools were fairly affordable and quite plentiful.

 

We just moved so I'm not too sure about the schools here in general, but the base school is interesting...a 3rd grade friend has a solid hour of homework (and he's smart and a quick worker) but his 5th grade brother usually has 10 minutes or less.  The 5th grader just finished COVD vision therapy and is working through my phonics lessons and trying to get up to speed in math so Mom is using the extra time to catch him up to what he missed because of vision problems, but she does think it is strange.

[Pen]

If 2 hours is really two hours of this, plus two hours of something else, and two hours of something more. Then you've got six hours. Which sounds more like it for lower elementary. But 2 hours in to out? No.

 

I've never said it all had to be (or ought to be) so called "seat-work." I'm all for having more fun learning than being chained to a desk. But a day should include more than 2 hours of active learning time (not including time spent playing in drainage ditches).

 

That still leaves time to make forts and engage in free play.

 

I think we agree ;)

 

Bill

 

 

'Course, that might depend how far north you live...   My recollection of LA days was a lot more play time available after school just due to weather and daylight.     (another recollection is that excellent schools in NYC were ahead of LA schools...)

 

 In the winter where we are now, the school bus comes up our road when it is  still dark in the morning and drops off shortly before it is dark in the afternoon.  Does not leave much drainage ditch time.

 

   I know Finland kids are supposed to get more play time and less homework...   but I spent a couple of days in Finland and I think the long nights of winter might mean a lot of reading could be getting done that isn't "school" or "homework" but still would help.    Though I also realize that other countries up there like Norway are not doing as well.

 

(and completely off topic, but just to note, I am enjoying the Constantine film, thanks for recommending it.)

[ElizabethB]

Now about the 2 hour thing...

 

I can get a lot accomplished in 2 hours.  During the younger elementary ages I can get everything done and have them well above grade level in 2 hours with tons of time to play and get in their 10,000 hours of arts and crafts.  (And book reading, legos, learning about gear ratios with dad who finally found someone interested enough to talk about gear ratios to while re-gearing a lego technic crane.)  I don't work with children who are not focusing.  We work for 2 hours focused.  If they are not focused, they go take a break, run around the house, go get a snack, etc.  The breaks get less and frequent as they get older but any time they need a break, they get one.  Also, they get less quantity of work if they do it correctly, I will adjust as I see fit depending on the length of the assignment and how much practice the student needs on that material.  I work towards quality learning and efficiency, not time.  

 

When I first started tutoring remedial students with phonics, it took about 30 hours for me to get my average student to grade level.  By a year later, I had cut that in half.  After a few years of studying my students and my methods and figuring out what was most efficient, I have come to the point where I can get my average student to grade level in 6 hours.  (And, with Webster's Speller, I now get many more students above grade level.)  

 

The child I tutored in math had failed every math homework for 30 days in fractions, decimals, and percents.  I worked with her for 1 hour and she got A's for the next month.  (Once I related all the problems to money and how many Webkinz she could buy, it all started clicking, BTW!)  It was actually sad that the school did not help her, she had free or reduced cost after school tutoring in the school, who knows what they did there?  

 

I tutor many neighborhood kids who need help, inquire about their homework and ask to see their schoolbooks (not in a mean demanding creepy way, a curious "I enjoy teaching and looking at school books, can I see your math book? Do you like it?"  And, this is after I know them, not my first question when I meet them.  I also mention that we move a lot and I'm always curious to see what kind of books they use in this part of the country since we homeschool and don't get to see the local school books.)

 

I used to give my children the nationally normed test they use in the state we have lived in 3 times and may live in again, they require homeschoolers to use this test so I wanted to make sure my children were familiar with it.  I gave them the tests for the year ahead and they scored so well I switched to the lets go learn tests which are computer adaptive and gave me better info while still giving my children test taking practice.

 

We are now taking over 2 hours per child but I can sometimes get my 3rd grader done in 2.  My daughter is a fast reader and thinker, she could get done in 2 hours in 3rd grade.  My son gets his math done faster than she did, but takes longer for everything else.  Again, I'm not working for time, I work for proficiency.  Proficiency also means different things for each child, my daughter was working on higher level LA than my son in 3rd grade but my son is working at a higher level in math and science than my daughter was at that age. 

[Haiku]

But a day should include more than 2 hours of active learning time (not including time spent playing in drainage ditches).

 

First of all, let it go. You've stomped this into the ground.

 

 

 

If 2 hours is really two hours of this, plus two hours of something else, and two hours of something more. Then you've got six hours. Which sounds more like it for lower elementary.

 

Second, I think a difference in perception between those who homeschool and those who don't is how we block out time. I don't call all the fantastic, learning-filled, investigative stuff my kids do "school." It's life. That's why I don't feel the need to try to replicate what schools do or kill myself setting up "learning centers." Learning centers are artificial. We are out in the world learning from the real thing. We have time to do it because my kids aren't at school or doing homework. I say we "do school" for four hours a day. That's seat work. That's not even close to the entirety of our learning.

 

Edited because my second quote didn't show up.

[Chrysalis Academy]

It is with great restraint that I step away from commenting about the "2 hours" thing again too . . . but thank you all for saying what's been on my mind!   :thumbup1:

I can answer this one. I went to a homework free high school. Rural midwest, teachers educated in the 50s and 60s.  Most everyone had a study hall and was expected to use it wisely..

 

Now there's a relevant point no one else has brought up:  Does the student in question have study halls? 

 

 

So..to get 12th English to the point of no hw, slower readers need a study hall or time at lunch to read, and everyone needs to have an on grade level command of English. There will be no papers written. No class time is wasted.

I've never heard of this way to do English before, and it would explain the lack of homework, but I'd need to think through how I feel about this approach and the potential rigor, compared to the usual class structure.  Just doing some quick math, if there are 20 students, and the class is 60 minutes long, and they all schedule their one-on-one time evenly, that's 15 minutes a week one-on-one with the teacher.  I'm not sure I'd chose 15 minutes one-on-one once a week compared to 300 minutes of discussion shared with the class, but maybe that depends on the students.  Never having any significant writing component of a literature class seems like a huge red flag.

[regentrude]

In Germany, are they doing the medical treatments on school time?

 

No. Medical treatments are not associated with school, and schools do not have medical staff like nurses or therapists.

If a child needs therapies or treatments, those are done outside of school. Since every family has heath insurance, they are covered and do not have to rely on free treatments through a school district.

 

Only in schools that are specifically for students with disabilities will therapies happen at the school, by school personel, during the school day (and those schools are usually all day schools)

 

[Spy Car]

'Course, that might depend how far north you live...   My recollection of LA days was a lot more play time available after school just due to weather and daylight.     (another recollection is that excellent schools in NYC were ahead of LA schools...)

 

 In the winter where we are now, the school bus comes up our road when it is  still dark in the morning and drops off shortly before it is dark in the afternoon.  Does not leave much drainage ditch time.

 

   I know Finland kids are supposed to get more play time and less homework...   but I spent a couple of days in Finland and I think the long nights of winter might mean a lot of reading could be getting done that isn't "school" or "homework" but still would help.    Though I also realize that other countries up there like Norway are not doing as well.

 

(and completely off topic, but just to note, I am enjoying the Constantine film, thanks for recommending it.)

Nice weather certainly helps when it comes to getting outdoors.

 

I'm glad you are enjoying the Constantine film (Constantine's Sword). It is obviously a personal persuasive-essay type film by a person with a very interesting perspective, and one that should not be considered the "last word." Not that you don't know this already :) it does raise a number of important issues that tend to get swept under the rug.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

I lived in the same district, or nearby, I think.  The homework load there was reasonable.  While there, I tutored a 4th grade Marquez Elementary student in math and a 2nd grade student in phonics.  I also sometimes helped them with their homework and saw how much homework they had.  While I mostly knew people with elementary aged children, the workload for older siblings in the area seemed reasonable as well.  

 

In the schools near us in our last location in Illinois, the homework load was much worse.  This was an 8 school elementary, 9 middle school and high school (from Great Schools ratings) with many children attending college.  During high stakes test years, most children have 3 - 5 hours of homework until after testing.  My daughter's friend had a more balanced homework load in 3rd grade, generally 30 - 40 min. Also, it was reasonable homework, not busywork or fill in the blank or things that are better covered in school. (Cursive, short editing assignment, a few reasonable math problems but not 50, etc.)  In 4th grade, (a big test year) we did not see her except on Saturdays or occasionally a few minutes on a Thursday or a Friday.  After the test in early spring we finally got to play with her during the week again.  Her dad made the hilarious comment, "Your children are so much more socialized than mine.  They are always playing with [their homeschool friends.]"  (He knew their names and said their names, they played with them when not a testing year.)

 

For middle school and high school in Illinois, the homework load was intense even in non-testing grades.  We had neighbor friends in middle and high schools and they had 2 - 4 hours of homework a night.  They were fairly fast workers, too, it was a lot of homework.  Mom had worked as a teacher and they were smart.  

 

In Virginia in a top district in the state, the kids also had this level of homework.  It was a lot more homework than in the schools in the Pacific Palisades/Santa Monica area where we lived.  (I don't think CA parents would put up with it, honestly.)  Actually, some parents did not in Illinois.  There was a family down the street that just didn't do homework, we didn't know them well enough to figure out the ramifications of that or how that worked out for them...

 

Where we lived in Little Rock, the homework load was reasonable but the schools were pretty bad, most military families either lived on base and went to the base school or lived where we lived and paid for private school, private schools were fairly affordable and quite plentiful.

 

We just moved so I'm not too sure about the schools here in general, but the base school is interesting...a 3rd grade friend has a solid hour of homework (and he's smart and a quick worker) but his 5th grade brother usually has 10 minutes or less.  The 5th grader just finished COVD vision therapy and is working through my phonics lessons and trying to get up to speed in math so Mom is using the extra time to catch him up to what he missed because of vision problems, but she does think it is strange.

You lived even closer to Paul Revere (I think) than I do when you were in LA.

 

Thank you for confirming the gross exaggerations this author makes concerning the homework load in the local schools. Not overwhelming students with too much homework is a valid concern. It doesn't help the discussion when authors like this misrepresent reality.

 

I wish we'd had the chance to meet when you were here.

 

All the best,

 

Bill :)

[8filltheheart]

Cross posting this from the ACT thread.

 

 

I wasn't sure under which thread to include this article. It actually pertains to both (or where the conversation has gone anyway.)

 

http://chronicle.com/article/Top-Students-Too-Arent/137821/

Brief intro:

 

Top Students, Too, Aren't Always Ready for College

 

 

One recent morning over coffee, I was talking with a colleague about a rising source of frustration for him and his fellow faculty members: how unprepared for college-level coursework so many incoming students are, even at our highly selective university.

 

"They have the grades and the test scores to be here," said my colleague, director of undergraduate studies in math at the Johns Hopkins University. "What they don't have is a deep understanding of why the techniques they've been taught work, the actual underlying mathematical relationships. They walk into to my classroom in September and don't have the study habits or proper foundation to do the work."

..............

Evidence suggests that academic talent is quite specifically diminished, not developed, by the school experience. A Fordham Institute study of how young American students testing in the 90th percentile or above fared over time found that roughly 30 to 50 percent of these advanced learners lost ground as they moved from elementary to middle school, or from middle to high school. And the focus on low­-achieving students in public schools has disproportionately left more smart minority and low-income kids behind, creating a well-documented "excellence gap."

[Spy Car]

Cross posting this from the ACT thread.

 

 

I wasn't sure under which thread to include this article. It actually pertains to both (or where the conversation has gone anyway.)

 

http://chronicle.com/article/Top-Students-Too-Arent/137821/

Brief intro:

Which goes to why "teaching for understanding" when dealing with mathematics (or any other subject) has been my "mantra" ever since joining this forum (which you know is true, if you've read my posts).

 

The reality is there are many popular homeschool math programs (to pick on one discipline for a moment)that are totally inadequate when it comes to teaching mathematical reasoning when used on their own, which means teaching what comes with the "program" and NOT what a smart-parent (such as yourself) might bring to the table, as—to borrow a phrase from Mrs Mungo—"this is not my first rodeo" :D).

 

I get that a gifted teacher could (potentially) make a workbook from the Dollar Store come alive, if that were her only recourse. It does not change the fact that many math programs popular with homeschoolers do not promote the development of the sort of mathematical reasoning we (or elite Universities) would hope their student would acquire. It is also true that there are resources like AoPS that are available to home educators that are amazing. People have choices to make.

 

Teaching for a depth of understanding "ought to be" the standard in education (as I'm convinced we agree). Schools and home schools can either succeed or fail in that regard, and in varying degrees in individual instances. If the public schools fail, as they too often do, then do better!

 

Do a lot better. Don't settle for mediocre just because the local school suck (to use the vernacular).

 

There is some irony in my mind that you attack schools for "fact based" or "knowledge based" learning approaches, when that pretty much sums up the educational philosophy of the TWTM in the grammar school years. It is "stuff their minds with facts." I think we both agree that developing reason, thinking skills, encouraging creative problem solving, and having play (and in my case at least, having playful developmentally appropriate learning opportunities) is vital to developing the wiring of young minds and that such things leads to directly to higher cognitive development. And that "fact cramming"does not.

 

Here we are both swimming against the tide.

 

Bill

[8filltheheart]

Which goes to why "teaching for understanding" when dealing with mathematics (or any other subject) has been my "mantra" ever since joining this forum (which you know is true, if you've read my posts).

 

.

 

Teaching for a depth of understanding "ought to be" the standard in education (as I'm convinced we agree). Schools and home schools can either succeed or fail in that regard, and in varying degrees in individual instances. If the public schools fail, as they too often do, then do better!

 

Do a lot better. Don't settle for mediocre just because the local school suck (to use the vernacular).

 

There is some irony in my mind that you attack schools for "fact based" or "knowledge based" learning approaches, when that pretty much sums up the educational philosophy of the TWTM in the grammar school years.

I agree with the first part.

 

Fwiw, never in all the yrs I have posted on this forum have I ever claimed to follow the WTM. I am respectful to SWB and the great benefit I derive from using their boards and I do believe that their products offer a great service to a large body of parents that don't know how to even begin to approach teaching their children. But, no, nothing in my home reflects WTM methodology. (Though in the upper grades, I could probably embrace more of the approach.)

[ElizabethB]

You lived even closer to Paul Revere (I think) than I do when you were in LA.

 

Thank you for confirming the gross exaggerations this author makes concerning the homework load in the local schools. Not overwhelming students with too much homework is a valid concern. It doesn't help the discussion when authors like this misrepresent reality.

 

I wish we'd had the chance to meet when you were here.

 

All the best,

 

Bill :)

We lived there for 12 months, one of the perils of military life, by the time I got settled and thought, maybe I should meet Spycar and Spylet before it is too late, it was time to get ready to move...

 

We lived within a block of Casa Nostra Ristorante in Pacific Palisades. We were so near Topanga that there were coyotes, snakes, etc. in our backyard. Not your typical LA yard, although it was a townhouse so it was shared backyard.

 

Then you could have seen in person what I really can accomplish in 2 hours! :)

 

And our boys could have played with Legos and math manipulatives, you could have seen my Belgian math book "A La Decouverte De La Mathematique et les reglettes Cuisenaire" par Louis Jeronnez et Isobelle Lejeune...

 

It is ISBN 2-603-00069-1 BTW

[Spy Car]

I agree with the first part.

 

Fwiw, never in all the yrs I have posted on this forum have I ever claimed to follow the WTM. I am respectful to SWB and the great benefit I derive from using their boards and I do believe that their products offer a great service to a large body of parents that don't know how to even begin to approach teaching their children. But, no, nothing in my home reflects WTM methodology. (Though in the upper grades, I could probably embrace more of the approach.)

Which is why I said we are both "swimming against the tide."

 

You may not say it explicitly (and I don't either), but what you argue for (and we are rather more alike than different on this point) runs directly against the premises (and presumptions about young "grammar-stage" children) that are fostered in Dorothy Sayers' latter-day reinvention of the Trivium as accepted in TWTM.

 

There. We are "out of the closet" :D

 

How does it feel?

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

We lived there for 12 months, one of the perils of military life, by the time I got settled and thought, maybe I should meet Spycar and Spylet before it is too late, it was time to get ready to move...

 

We lived within a block of Casa Nostra Ristorante in Pacific Palisades. We were so near Topanga that there were coyotes, snakes, etc. in our backyard. Not your typical LA yard, although it was a townhouse so it was shared backyard.

 

Then you could have seen in person what I really can accomplish in 2 hours! :)

 

And our boys could have played with Legos and math manipulatives, you could have seen my Belgian math book "A La Decouverte De La Mathematique et les reglettes Cuisenaire" par Louis Jeronnez et Isobelle Lejeune...

 

It is ISBN 2-603-00069-1 BTW

I'm trying to channel my inner-Edith Piaf and say, "Je ne regrette rien," but it isn't working :D

 

I really regret we did not have that opportunity. Thank you for all the good work you do helping children. I admire what you do more than I can say.

 

Bill

[umsami]

I grew up going to a college prep private school and her work load looked normal-to-light to me.  But that doesn't mean that it wasn't excessive.  She also had some Spanish in there, I seem to remember.  It wasn't just algebra, "Angela's Ashes", and a science test.

 

Anyhow, back in the 80s, we had forced sports (three seasons...often home after 6 p.m.), forced clubs, etc.  All part of being well-rounded.  Yes, we were an Ivy, Seven Sisters, and public Ivy feeder. You learned to survive.  I used to do my reading on the swim bus... and then do my math homework before school the next day or in class during the math lecture. (I had to catch the bus at 6:15 a.m... if I drove myself (when older), I got to school at 7 a.m. to give myself an hour to work.) My biggest problem was that I'd read the entire book in one sitting and then have to struggle to go back and do specific assignments.

 

My grades were O.K. in school.  I graduated cum laude.. most of my friends were magna or summa.  Still, college was a breeze...and other than science classes, my "survival" skills served me well.  (Science, especially things like organic, required actually studying on a regular basis.  Can't learn tons of reactions overnight... at least I couldn't.)

 

What bothered me most about the article wasn't the amount of work...or the author's use of pot... it was the whole "memorize don't rationalize" type thing... or whatever the daughter's philosophy was.   That saddens me.

[chiguirre]

I get that a gifted teacher could (potentially) make a workbook from the Dollar Store come alive, if that were her only recourse. It does not change the fact that many math programs popular with homeschoolers do not promote the development of the sort of mathematical reasoning we (or elite Universities) would hope their student would acquire. It is also true that there are resources like AoPS that are available to home educators that are amazing. People have choices to make.

 

Teaching for a depth of understanding "ought to be" the standard in education (as I'm convinced we agree). Schools and home schools can either succeed or fail in that regard, and in varying degrees in individual instances. If the public schools fail, as they too often do, then do better!

 

Do a lot better. Don't settle for mediocre just because the local school suck (to use the vernacular).

People have choices to make, but they need to take into account their students' ability. Not everyone is cut out for AoPS and trying to use it with a kid who shuts done at the discovery method won't work. Some kids need MUS to have even a hope of being able to grasp the basic arithmetic they'll need as adults. Some need programs written for special education to grasp even simple addition and subtraction (3 cheers for Semple Math).

 

Most kids aren't heading to elite universities. Most kids aren't going to major in a field that requires more than calculus. It's great that there are awesome schools that cater to the 2%. It's great that you're zoned for one. It's great that your son can thrive there. But that doesn't reflect the mission of most homeschoolers. We're not all dealing with highly gifted kids who aspire to MIT. That doesn't make us less worthy of respect. It takes a lot of grit to spend years and years on teaching phonics and basic number sense to an ld child until they finally get it. It takes vastly more effort than most public schools are willing to expend on the lowest achieving 2% of kids.

[Spy Car]

People have choices to make, but they need to take into account their students' ability. Not everyone is cut out for AoPS and trying to use it with a kid who shuts done at the discovery method won't work. Some kids need MUS to have even a hope of being able to grasp the basic arithmetic they'll need as adults. Some need programs written for special education to grasp even simple addition and subtraction (3 cheers for Semple Math).

 

Most kids aren't heading to elite universities. Most kids aren't going to major in a field that requires more than calculus. It's great that there are awesome schools that cater to the 2%. It's great that you're zoned for one. It's great that your son can thrive there. But that doesn't reflect the mission of most homeschoolers. We're not all dealing with highly gifted kids who aspire to MIT. That doesn't make us less worthy of respect. It takes a lot of grit to spend years and years on teaching phonics and basic number sense to an ld child until they finally get it. It takes vastly more effort than most public schools are willing to expend on the lowest achieving 2% of kids.

I don't know where you could possibly get the idea that I don't think that parents who don't have kids who aspire to MIT are "not worthy of respect."

 

I hope you don't mean that.

 

I appreciate the effort it takes to teach children with learning challenges, and how much better off they might be with a dedicated parent (who won't give up on them) than a school that might.

 

I think you know me better than that. I hope so anyway.

 

Bill

[momacacia]

I've only read the first few paragraphs. All I can think if is that if the kids that keep that kind of schedule make it out of high school without adrenal fatigue, I'll be amazed. I wouldn't mortgage my kids' health on all that homework.

[regentrude]

.  I always looked at ivy league as something for those who have lots of money irregardless of their abilities. 

 

Actually, some Ivies are much less expensive than out of state public universities, since they give more need based aid.

[regentrude]

I'd have to see it to believe it.

 

I have heard that though.

 

Check this out from Princeton, to give just one example:

http://www.princeton.edu/pr/aid/pdf/1011/PU-FinAidGlance.pdf

 

Family income under 60k - full tuition and room&board covered

Family income 100-120k: full tuition and 18% room&board covered

 

 

[kiana]

Well that's great.  But then there is also the issue of how does one "roll" with people who come from so.much.more.money? 

 

Both of my (homeschooled) brothers attended an Ivy League school. One of them attended before the tuition waiver came in, so he did graduate with about 20k in loans. For four years, that's not bad. The other one attended on the complete tuition waiver that most of them have now.

 

Neither of them had any problems fitting in socially and both made enduring friendships. Do not discount it if you are low income and have kids who are truly in the top intellectually.

[8filltheheart]

Um yeah. To add, I think my kids are above average, but I am still not aiming for ivy league. I don't grasp the concept. I was the first in my family to graduate from college (state college and several of my family members didn't even graduate from high school). So ivy league? What is that? I think we do quite fine. I have no desire to enter the "sell my soul to the devil and go insanely broke trying" rat race. There is way more to life than that. I always looked at ivy league as something for those who have lots of money irregardless of their abilities.

I understand your POV. I am one of six and two of my brothers and I were first generation college grads. One brother is an orthodontists, the other a successful entrepreneur, and I believe I am one pretty darn good teacher. ;) We are all the product of public universities.

 

That said, I am very concerned about where our 12th grader is going to attend. While it is thrilling to say that he goes into 200 and 300 level math/physics courses and earns the highest or close to the highest grade in every class, it also means that he is not being challenged to a level he is really capable of achieving. His professors love him and he even has the great privilege of being invited to travel with a former physics professor on a research trip in a couple of weeks. But, the local university does not have the same opportunities as the bigger universities. All the other instate public university options are fairly similar in opportunity. Top public and top private have the best research opportunities. It is concerning when at 17 he has finished all math requirements for his desired undergrad degree and by the end of this school yr he will have finished all science reqs for the first 5 semesters for his major.

 

But cost is a very real concern. Where he is accepted, where he is capable of succeeding.....both are subservient to where we can afford. That we won't know until May.

[chiguirre]

Well that's great.  But then there is also the issue of how does one "roll" with people who come from so.much.more.money? 

I went to Penn and most of my friends were not wealthy at all. In fact, quite a few of them were working class kids with need based aid and work study jobs. I wouldn't let finances impede you from applying to an ivy if you want to go to an ivy.

[Corraleno]

Well now I feel compelled to defend the practice of playing in drainage ditches.  :lol:

 

We've caught, identified, and studied dozens of different critters, from microscopic daphnia to large crayfish. We've collected & analyzed the water at different times of year; set up an ecosystem tank populated with as many different kinds of plants, algae, and critters as we could collect; brought home a large colony of planarians and designed various experiments (without harming them); caught, identified, and hatched all kinds of different larvae; identified different birds and birdcalls; sketched dozens of plants, rocks, insects, animals and animal tracks; and spent many a blissful afternoon just sitting in the sun watching dozens of dragonflies and damselflies flutter, hunt, and mate. We even saw a porcupine in a tree once!



 

Jackie (strong supporter of "ditch schooling"  :D )

 

 

[8filltheheart]

Jackie, if I could like it multiple times I would!!! :)

 

Precious picture, btw! Love it.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Oh Jackie, your response to the "drainage ditch" thing was so much better than the one I was composing in my head!!!  Love it!

 

ETA: I'm pretty sure the person who first mentioned "playing in drainage ditches" in a previous thread has an accelerated 9 yo who is doing AoPS PreAlgebra . . . so their family is hardly the poster child for slacking homeschoolers, either!

[Spy Car]

Well now I feel compelled to defend the practice of playing in drainage ditches.  :lol:

 

We've caught, identified, and studied dozens of different critters, from microscopic daphnia to large crayfish. We've collected & analyzed the water at different times of year; set up an ecosystem tank populated with as many different kinds of plants, algae, and critters as we could collect; brought home a large colony of planarians and designed various experiments (without harming them); caught, identified, and hatched all kinds of different larvae; identified different birds and birdcalls; sketched dozens of plants, rocks, insects, animals and animal tracks; and spent many a blissful afternoon just sitting in the sun watching dozens of dragonflies and damselflies flutter, hunt, and mate. We even saw a porcupine in a tree once!

 

 

 

Jackie (strong supporter of "ditch schooling"  :D )

Awesome! :D

 

Bill

[ErinE]

Well now I feel compelled to defend the practice of playing in drainage ditches. :lol:

 

Jackie (strong supporter of "ditch schooling" :D )

You (and your kid) are awesome

[wapiti]

Well that's great.  But then there is also the issue of how does one "roll" with people who come from so.much.more.money? 

 

I will third what Kiana and Chiguirre said.  I attended a very expensive, selective non-Ivy school on scholarship (plus loans and work-study).  Plenty of other people were there on financial aid.  Sure, I couldn't go on spring break trips and I had various part-time jobs throughout college, but financial differences were not an issue at all socially.

[ElizabethB]

We are ditch schoolers, too!

 

Ditches are ______. Er, wait, that was Albuquerque and the kids never lived there and the phrase is not so family friendly.

 

Here are my children in 2009 looking for cool stuff. Two or three years later, they were finally able to raise local tadpoles. They lost 2 of the 6 but managed to grow 4 toads to adulthood and transferred them back to their local habitat. (I will change back to my normal avatar in a few days, I am just changing it for a bit in support of ditch schooling.)

 

None of this ditch schooling was done during our 2 hours, BTW. Also, none of the lizard catching and researching. My daughter knows more about lizards than most people. She wanted me to send a correction to the Herps of Arkansas website! California Herps is good. Herps of Arkansas is actually good, they just have a statement about the Fence Lizards we had in our backyard that "They are just fast enough to prove difficult to catch by curious youngsters." She claimed that it was actually very easy to catch them, you just had to have the right technique. You go very slow when within 10 feet of them, then a quick grab at the last second. (According to my expert lizard catcher. I used to catch reptiles when I was younger, but I turned into a Mom or something.)

[ElizabethB]

I'm trying to channel my inner-Edith Piaf and say, "Je ne regrette rien," but it isn't working :D

 

I really regret we did not have that opportunity. Thank you for all the good work you do helping children. I admire what you do more than I can say.

 

Bill

I actually don't speak any French, so it's all good! Luckily, the book is mainly math with lots of numbers, pictures, and diagrams. I also know a fair amount of Spanish and a bit of Latin. And, there is always online translation options for a word or phrase here or there.

 

Thanks for the encouragement. When I am a bit more settled, I hope to do more here. There is, like most cities, a side of town that needs help. And, there are always neighborhood kids who went to a poor school or had a bad teacher or just need a bit more time than their school spent on the basics.

[Corraleno]

We had a huge pet toad that the kids found and raised from a dime-sized toadlet, and we even had a pet fence lizard once! The kids have also caught assorted whiptails and bluetails, but none of them have been willing to eat in captivity, so we always let them go within a day or so. But our little fence lizard spent about six months in our classroom, happily eating mealworms, before the kids decided to set him free in a flower bed so he could "find a mate and fulfill his destiny."  :lol:

 

Jackie

[Alice]

Well that's great.  But then there is also the issue of how does one "roll" with people who come from so.much.more.money? 

 

My husband went to Yale and he says it was also one of the cheapest options for him after what they offered. He was work-study, 1st generation Chinese-American from Indiana. He didn’t have a problem making friends and fitting in, but I will also say that he is particularly clueless (in a good way) to social nuance/status/etc. He might not have noticed if he was being shut out socially and he certainly wouldn’t have cared. 

 

We also have nieces and a nephew who have attended very high dollar and status high schools and colleges and I think were effected in a negative way. Not so much that they were outcasts but that they began to think a certain lifestyle was normal. I would imagine it’s going to be different for everyone and more about the individual student than across the board a problem. 

[chiguirre]

Maybe these schools let anyone in irregardless of parental income, but in order to compete with those who try to get in you have to have money along the way.   If one is supposed to play 3 sports or have some cool hobbies, etc. how do you do that without money?  You don't. 

Actually, being a working class kid from a small town is their hook. Selective schools want to build an interesting, diverse student body so they look for kids from different backgrounds. You don't have to compete with rich kids from private schools, you just have to have excellent test scores and be the cream of the crop in your corner of the world.

[kiana]

Actually, being a working class kid from a small town is their hook. Selective schools want to build an interesting, diverse student body so they look for kids from different backgrounds. You don't have to compete with rich kids from private schools, you just have to have excellent test scores and be the cream of the crop in your corner of the world.

 

Yep. They're a lot more understanding about kids who HAD to do something else. Neither of my siblings had any extracurricular other than music and 4-H. In particular, they had no sports whatsoever.

 

The '3 sports, a musical instrument, two volunteer jobs (one with people and one with animals) and regular trips to third world countries to build houses for people' are for kids of the types they already have enough of. They have enough kids with well-off parents who went to exclusive boarding schools or public schools in very rich districts. They (honestly) don't want to have a class peopled solely with them. They want interesting people who look like they're going to do well, and really, it's a crapshoot anyway.

[Pen]

Well that's great.  But then there is also the issue of how does one "roll" with people who come from so.much.more.money? 

 

 

I think you need to look at the individual school as it exists at the point your child might apply.  Different schools can be different, and not all Ivy's, or other types of selective colleges are the same as each other in this regard.  Also not all state schools are the same in this sort of regard either.  Different University of California campuses can be very different socially, for example.   And one might, at one point, have been at a state university in Texas and found oneself with a daughter of a wealthy President, or might have had that at Yale. 

[regentrude]

Ok now I have to laugh.  I wasn't even entirely sure what "Ivy League" meant.  It is a group of 8 schools.  So of the zillions of schools in the US these are the only ones to aim for or that provide a good education?   I find that hard to believe.

 

You should not believe it, because it is not true. There are many colleges where students receive a good education. (I know certain  board members here claim otherwise)

 

[jennynd]

Well that's great. But then there is also the issue of how does one "roll" with people who come from so.much.more.money?

DH graduate from a very very expensive undergrade and all the way through PhD. MIL was a middle school art teacher and FIL is a construction worker. DH only paid 1 year of tuition (loan) and the rest was scholarship. He got paid by the school from Master to PhD.

I came to this country for Master degree and my Dad is high school teacher and Mom is SaHM. My tuition was fully covered by the university.

 

From what I read, your kids are really smart. Do not shy away from those school just because you don't think you can pay. School will do anything to get bright and hard working kids....