What is your ethnicity?

[SKL]

Just wondering what people think of the "ethnicity" categories recognized in the US and how Hive members think it should be.  I have some thoughts of my own, but I want so see what you all think.

[Scarlett]

Beats me.  I always just put white or caucasion.  I imagine few of us really know.

 

I have some NA....I mostly look NA if anything....but I did have the lady at the chinese restaurant ask me if I'm Asian...shrug.

[SKL]

Do you (general "you") think that there are people who have no ethnicity?

[Jean in Newcastle]

Everyone has an ethnicity - it just doesn't always conveniently fit into a nice little box.  My kids have a blast with the census forms. . .   (and everything they put down is absolutely true.)

[TravelingChris]

Well my ethnicity is very specific but on census forms, we always put other and write in human for ethnicity.  Mainly because I actually do want us to change to the country that MLK Jr envisioned in his 1963 speech.

[SKL]

On the 2010 census form, I think there were only 2 choices for ethnicity (and an answer was required): Hispanic and not Hispanic.

[Jean in Newcastle]

On the 2010 census form, I think there were only 2 choices for ethnicity (and an answer was required): Hispanic and not Hispanic.

My kids are half Filipino - colonized by Spain but not normally considered Hispanic on a census form.  

[Karen in CO]

I consider myself a well-mixed American mutt.  I always leave ethnicity blank, if possible, or put "other."  

[Ottakee]

Does Heinz 57 count?

[Dandelion]

Yes, everyone has an ethnicity. I also think people often confuse ethnicity with race.  They're not the same thing. 
 
Since you asked specifically about ethnicity categories recognized in the U.S., I just looked them up to refresh my memory.  
 
Here they are:
 

-------------------------
Race/ethnicity (new definition)
Categories developed in 1997 by the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) that are used to describe groups to which individuals belong, identify with, or belong in the eyes of the community. The categories do not denote scientific definitions of anthropological origins. The designations are used to categorize U.S. citizens, resident aliens, and other eligible non-citizens. Individuals are asked to first designate ethnicity as:

• Hispanic or Latino or
• Not Hispanic or Latino

Second, individuals are asked to indicate one or more races that apply among the following:

• American Indian or Alaska Native
• Asian
• Black or African American
• Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander
• White

--------------------

 

I find it interesting that the U.S. government just distinguishes between Hispanic and Not Hispanic as far as ethnicity goes.  I've never looked into why that is, but I wonder why they chose to limit the ethnic categories in this fashion.  "Hispanics" are a huge, ethnically diverse group - and "Non Hispanics" even more so.

 

I also find this description interesting: categories "to describe groups to which individuals belong, identify with, or belong in the eyes of the community."  Almost makes it sound as if people can just choose their ethnicity in a sense. 

[SKL]

I also find this description interesting: categories "to describe groups to which individuals belong, identify with, or belong in the eyes of the community."  Almost makes it sound as if people can just choose their ethnicity in a sense. 

 

Except for the third part, "belong in the eyes of the community." 

 

There's a discussion going on elsewhere about whether children adopted as infants from Latin American countries - and raised by non-Hispanic folks in the US - are "Hispanic."

 

I think it's odd and a little disturbing that there doesn't seem to be a clear definition of "ethnicity" nor "Hispanic" and yet people are required to choose one.  (Not to mention the fact that none of the "race" choices fit those kids either.)

[SKL]

I think that if I were Hispanic and adopted a child born to a non-Hispanic birth mom, my kid could say s/he was "Hispanic" because Hispanics run the racial gamut, so s/he could decide purely based on culture.  On the other hand if I adopt a child who "looks Hispanic" and raise her with no ties to any Hispanic culture, my child is supposed to say she is Hispanic based on how she looks or where she was born.

 

Strange concepts.

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

I'm 1/8 Spanish and my great grandfather instilled pride in that fact in me. (Yes, I got to know my great-grand parents very well as a kid.) He was very clear about Spanish NOT being "Hispanic." But I'm never sure if that's what to put on forms or not. I'm pretty sure at least one of my kid's birth certificate paperwork has "Hispanic" and at least one doesn't thanks to that confusion and postpartum indecisiveness. :tongue_smilie:

[Dandelion]

Except for the third part, "belong in the eyes of the community." 

 

There's a discussion going on elsewhere about whether children adopted as infants from Latin American countries - and raised by non-Hispanic folks in the US - are "Hispanic."

 

Interesting question.

 

Since ethnicity relates to factors such as nationality, culture, ancestry, and language, I would consider those children Hispanic. Their birth culture and ancestry (and in some cases nationality, if they have the option of dual citizenship) are Hispanic. Their adoption and the ethnicity of the adoptive parent doesn't change that. However, I can see how a child raised in a different country/culture might identify more as non-Hispanic over time if no effort is made to maintain a connection to their birth culture.

 

I think it's odd and a little disturbing that there doesn't seem to be a clear definition of "ethnicity" nor "Hispanic" and yet people are required to choose one.  (Not to mention the fact that none of the "race" choices fit those kids either.)

 

I agree.

 

[TravelingChris]

There are legitimate uses to ethnicity labeling in the medical community.  People from certain areas of the world have more risk for certain diseases than others.  Each ethnicity has different disease risk profiles.  But it certainly isn't helpful to just say Hispanic or non Hispanic and isn't even all that helpful to talk about race.  Because while some diseases are more or less racially common, they are almost never solely existent in one race-  for example sickle cell anemia which is a helpful adaption to survive malaria but otherwise is a bad condition.  Normally it is said to occur in blacks. But it doesn't occur in blacks from South Africa, for example, and it does occur in whites from southern Italy and Greece.  Then there are some that seem to affect people of certain latitudes, regardless of where they originally came from (I believe MS is much more common in northern latitudes though I don't know if it is also more common in New Zealand and lower parts of Chile too).

[SKL]

 

Interesting question.

 

Since ethnicity relates to factors such as nationality, culture, ancestry, and language, I would consider those children Hispanic. Their birth culture and ancestry (and in some cases nationality, if they have the option of dual citizenship) are Hispanic. Their adoption and the ethnicity of the adoptive parent doesn't change that. However, I can see how a child raised in a different country/culture might identify more as non-Hispanic over time if no effort is made to maintain a connection to their birth culture.

 

 

But it seems strange to me that where a child spent his first couple of days is more important than where she spends the rest of her life.

 

Add in the little tidbit that indigenous people in Latin American countries often don't actually speak Spanish, and they follow traditional indigenous cultures.  (Yet they don't meet the definition of Native American because they don't have a legal affiliation with a US Native American tribe.)

 

ETA:  And this "birth ethnicity" convention only seems to apply to some races.  Well, basically, one particular type of origin, since "Hispanic" is the only ethnicity the US bothers with.  Kids adopted from Korea, Russia, Ethiopia don't have to claim an ethnicity.

 

[sparrow]

I have no clue. Well, I have a very general clue. I like Karen in CO's "well-mixed American mutt".

[HS Mom in NC]

Remember that different people groups have very different ideas about what "race" means.  My youngest is an international adoptee from S. Korea.  On her paperwork from the S. Korean government they list her race as "Korean".  Lots of people in the West would consider that an ethnicity (a sub-set of the Asian race.)

 

My ancestry as far as I know (And how many Americans really know or care?) is very Northwestern European.  So I just say Caucasian.

 

According to the Lee study, 25% of Asian adoptees raised by Caucasians identify themselves as "Caucasian."  That may be culturally true, but I believe when asked about ethnicity or race they're looking for genetic type information.  There are DNA services now that help people narrow down which country to search for documents related to their genetic ancestry.

 

By the way, from one interracial family to the rest of the world, you don't have to ignore ethic and racial differences to prove you're not a racist.  You can celebrate the differences and the similarities and we won't think badly of you. 

Ken Ham fans: Please don't tell my Korean-American child that there's only one race-the human race.  You sound silly and you're not helping.  Acknowledging different races (however defined) is a good and healthy thing-especially for my Korean child in a Caucasian family.

 

[Spy Car]

There is no "race" beyond that of the "human race" (species Homo sapiens), to which we all belong.

 

It is true that the evolutionary process and time has resulted in some populations sharing genetic variations that are both visually distinctive and less obvious (ones that are only now being revealed by advancing technology).

 

The names we attach to ethnic, regional, tribal, national, or even "racial" differences are all very imprecise. With "race" being the worst offender in terms of precision. 

 

Bill

 

[Dandelion]

But it seems strange to me that where a child spent his first couple of days is more important than where she spends the rest of her life.

 

Add in the little tidbit that indigenous people in Latin American countries often don't actually speak Spanish, and they follow traditional indigenous cultures.  (Yet they don't meet the definition of Native American because they don't have a legal affiliation with a US Native American tribe.)

 

It's definitely a complex subject.  The crux is really the definition of ethnicity (which we've already agreed is not clearly defined or at least not clearly understood). 

 

Is ethnicity the nationality, culture, ancestry, and language of the place of your birth?

 

Or is it the nationality, culture, ancestry, and language of the place you are raised?

 

Since people are so geographically mobile these days, and it's possible to live in and be immersed in multiple cultures, etc. throughout a lifetime, it would seem that the only definitive way to ascribe ethnicity is by place of birth and ethnic ancestry. Otherwise, it really just becomes a choice, right?  

 

Perhaps this dilemma is the reason for the phrasing "to describe groups to which individuals belong, identify with, or belong in the eyes of the community."

[mommaduck]

Very mixed American. I don't agree with the government's definition of race and ethnicity. Race: Human. Ethnicity: Mixed. Specifically: Finnish, Prussian, German, Swiss, Swede, Scots, Irish, English, Welsh, French, Italian, African, Cherokee...possibly Spanish, Greek, and Jewish mixed in.

[Jean in Newcastle]

 

My teens have friends with Hispanic last names who are finding it really easy to get opportunities they want because of the assumptions that come with the name; they are getting strange looks though when they show up with English as a first language plus skin color and height isn't what was assumed.

I somehow ended up with a subscription to a Spanish language glam magazine because of my last name.  I frequently get telemarketers speaking in Spanish or occasionally Tagalog.  

[SKL]

I think ethnicity has more to do with the culture you're raised in, the one you're comfortable in and know how to navigate.

 

I took my kids to their birth country last winter.  They don't fit in there, and won't unless they attend a Spanish-language school in that country, wear clothes like those around them, get used to the locally acceptable distance and loudness and punctuality and a thousand other niceties that they don't even notice here.  They were extremely relieved to be back on US soil.  They will always feel like visitors in their birth country, even though I make efforts to get them familiar with their "roots."

 

They do spend time with Hispanic people, so they might grow up feeling comfortable with American Hispanic culture.  But they will be equally comfortable with Indian-American culture, because they hang with a lot of Indians as well.  Mostly they will identify with whatever my culture is (redneck light? ;) ) because that's been the vast majority of their experience.

 

ETA:  Not to say that my kids became ethnically European-transplant when they came here.  More to say that they should not be put in a cultural (social) box based on who they are biologically.

[TravelingChris]

I am certainly not a Ken Ham devotee and I am sure SpyCar isn't either.  Both of us reject the racial definitions but I don't even know what Ken Ham;s objections is and I really don't care.  I am sure my objection is the same as SpyCar's= racial designations are unscientific and meaningless. Even ethnicity has difficulty as Mommduck illustrates with her list of ethnicities/  What I can add to that when I was little, people often assumed I was one ethnicity because both of my parents came from one European country.  But that assumption implies that while people emigrated to the US, no one ever moved around Europe.  That is abjectly wrong and even more wrong with certain occupations and social classes.  For example, Flemish weavers, making tapestries and other fine fabrics, were in great demand in the Middle Ages.  There were groups of them who moved to areas that are now England, France, Italy, Germany, Poland, Hungary and probably other places too.  (I am not claiming Flemish background but just using an example of one group I know moved around during the middle ages).  If you go back even further, you get mass migrations in the latter period of the Roman Empire.  While I was reading to my dd SWB Ancient Civilizations, I read about the start of the Silk Road in the BC period.  Obviously if there was trading between the Roman Empire and the Chinese Empire, there was probably also intermarriages at some point too, at least with peoples along the road if not between actual Romans and Chinese.

[athena1277]

We got the invasive question long census form recently.  It asked for ethnicity for each person living here.  It gave 3 lines for answers.  I put "I don't know" every time.  We are white.  I know we are all/most European of some flavor(s), but I have no idea which.  I know you can trace one branch of my family tree back to the Mayflower crossing.  Who knows where the rest of my ancestors came from.  I felt kinda dumb for not knowing how to answer that, but when my family has been in this country for centuries, I consider myself only American.

[SKL]

Is American an ethnicity, and if so, are Hispanics not Americans in that sense of the word?

 

(Nobody is implying that, but it does seem to be kind of implied by the nature of the form question, doesn't it?)

[Spy Car]

Is American an ethnicity, and if so, are Hispanics not Americans in that sense of the word?

 

(Nobody is implying that, but it does seem to be kind of implied by the nature of the form question, doesn't it?)

 

No, "American" is a national (and personal) identity that isn't based on DNA or the national or ethic origins (for lack of better words) of ones ancestors.

 

Bill

[SKL]

Although when an American-born singer sang the anthem at a baseball game recently, people had a fit because "why don't they have an American sing"?  Because people assume by his looks/voice that he is Hispanic and therefore not American.

[Spy Car]

Although when an American-born singer sang the anthem at a baseball game recently, people had a fit because "why don't they have an American sing"?  Because people assume by his looks/voice that he is Hispanic and therefore not American.

 

That is because we have a surfeit of ignorant "racists."

 

Bill 

[SKL]

That is because we have a surfeit of ignorant "racists."

 

Bill 

 

Maybe if we stopped insisting that people belong in boxes, that boxes are meaningful, this sort of thing would decrease.

 

[regentrude]

My ethnicity is German.

The fact that I am now an American citizen does not change that. Nor would moving to Iceland. It is my parents' ethnicity and hence carries both cultural and biological connotations.

 

Ethnicity is not the same thing as race and not the same thing as continent origin. African American is not an ethnicity, and Hispanic is not one either. Kenian or Mexican or member of xyz native tribe may be; in an ethnically very diverse country, there may be different ethnicities - so maybe Kenian is not either; I don't know enough. Certainly "European" would not be. Now would "Caucasian".

 

 

[regentrude]

Is American an ethnicity, and if so, are Hispanics not Americans in that sense of the word?

 

No, I do not think American is an ethnicity. European or Asian isn't one either.

Hispanic is not technically an ethnicity - there is far too much ethnic diversity between the people lumped together in this category.

[Spy Car]

Maybe if we stopped insisting that people belong in boxes, that boxes are meaningful, this sort of thing would decrease.

 

No. I think it is meaningful to many (most) people to understand where they came from in terms of family ancestory.

 

In many families (most I'd bet) there are still cultural aspects that distinguish the family life and add a richness of texture to the life experience. Be it music, food, holidays, attitudes & mores, religion, language, of many other areas of cultural expression.

 

It is cliché to say, but these things add to the American tapestry.

 

Bill

[Guest]

Everyone has an ethnicity - it just doesn't always conveniently fit into a nice little box.  My kids have a blast with the census forms. . .   (and everything they put down is absolutely true.)

 

Same here!  I'm black, white, and Native American.  About equal parts white and black, and 1/8 NA.  Just found out one great-grandfather was Mexican (no one knew) so have to add that in there!  

 

My children with my ex husband are even more mixed than me!  DH is white, so our youngest children are about the same if you consider white just white, but DH's "white" is different than my "white" so not really!  Does that even make sense?  :P

[Karen in CO]

No. I think it is meaningful to many (most) people to understand where they came from in terms of family ancestory.

 

In many families (most I'd bet) there are still cultural aspects that distinguish the family life and add a richness of texture to the lie experience. Be it music, food, holidays, attitudes & mores, religion, language, of many other areas of cultural expression.

 

It is cliché to say, but these things add to the American tapestry.

 

Bill

 

Does this mean I have to write-in "Redneck" as my ethnicity?  It is the music, food, holiday celebrations, religion, language and a lot of other things that are part of my tapestry.

[Spy Car]

My ethnicity is German.

The fact that I am now an American citizen does not change that. Nor would moving to Iceland. It is my parents' ethnicity and hence carries both cultural and biological connotations.

 

Ethnicity is not the same thing as race and not the same thing as continent origin. African American is not an ethnicity, and Hispanic is not one either. Kenian or Mexican or member of xyz native tribe may be; in an ethnically very diverse country, there may be different ethnicities - so maybe Kenian is not either; I don't know enough. Certainly "European" would not be. Now would "Caucasian".

 

Kenya is one of those nations with an extremely diverse set of tribal/ethnic identities. I remember there was a joke reportedly going around Kenya when Barak Obama was first running for President (and the possibility of his winning seemed like a "long-shot") that America would probably have "Luo" President before Kenya did (as the Luo have been systematically disempowered).

 

Bill 

 

[Spy Car]

Does this mean I have to write-in "Redneck" as my ethnicity?  It is the music, food, holiday celebrations, religion, language and a lot of other things that are part of my tapestry.

 

I think "Redneck" might serve as your cultural (or sub-cultural) identity, and that if you studied your ancestry you might find commonalities in the migration patterns of your forebears.

 

Bill

[mommymilkies]

I consider myself a well-mixed American mutt.  I always leave ethnicity blank, if possible, or put "other."  

I check white, but don't check "Caucasian" because I personally am not comfortable with the history of the term.  I am also not Caucasian in the geographical term as NONE of my ancestors (barring future DNA and tribe research) came from the area in the last many thousands of years, for sure. So I guess racially, I am "white".  I have Algonkian and Cherokee blood, but it's back many generations.  I have some Norman and Dutch blood, too.  But more than anything, I am 99% Irish/Scottish/English from ancestors that have been here since the 17th-early 18th centuries. I have done DNA testing on my maternal line, so I suppose I could put "Viking" down if they really want something, as I have conclusive proof of that one.  :lol: Culturally, though, I was raised Jewish (step-father)with Appalachian Hillbilly family on my maternal side. 

[Karen in CO]

I think "Redneck" might serve as your cultural (or sub-cultural) identity, and that if you studied your ancestry you might find commonalities in the migration patterns of your forebears.

 

Bill

Well, both sides of my family were in the rural South since right after the War of 1812.  They came from Ireland, England and Scotland into the South then mixed with two Native American tribes and a couple of freed slaves. If you dig down into the Scots, you'll find a Viking or three.  I still claim well-mixed American as my ethnicity.

[SKL]

My grandmother came from Hungary on a ship when she was four years old, and her parents only spoke Hungarian at home.  However, she preferred to not identify socially as Hungarian, because there was a stigma to being Eastern European when she was growing up.

 

Same could be said of most cultural groups over time.  The goal was to blend in - for better or worse.

 

I wonder if that is why most Americans don't even think of themselves as having an ethnicity?

 

Wait - is "WASP" an ethnicity, sort of?

[Carrie12345]

Caucasian mutt. Culturally "identifying" with mostly Swedish and Irish simply b/c that's what my maternal side shared most.

[Audrey]

If asked in person, I usually just say "standard mutt."

 

If asked on a government form, I decline to answer - as is my right here.

[Spy Car]

 

Wait - is "WASP" an ethnicity, sort of?

 

Sort of, but being a WASP also usually had "class" connotations (i.e. being a member of the upper class—or at least among the local big-wigs in the hinterlands) beyond ethnic/religious identity. It was pretty exclusionary term.

 

Bill 

[SKL]

I don't answer either, unless I really have to.

 

However, my kids (who inspired this whole question) will be asked to fill out these forms eventually.  I don't want to give them the impression that there is something wrong with being - whatever.  I don't have any problem acknowledging any and all parts of their heritage.  I just don't believe they fit in a box.  At least, not any of the boxes presented.  Nor should they have to.  Nor should any of us.

[Nart]

I think there are two views of ethnicity - what you consider your ethnicity/race to be and what others consider your ethnicity/race to be. I might have one view of my ethnicity/race but others either consciously or unconsciously often make assumptions about my race/ethnicity when they look at me. The same goes for my DH and my kids. 

[SKL]

Sort of, but being a WASP also usually had "class" connotations (i.e. being a member of the upper class—or at least among the local big-wigs in the hinterlands) beyond ethnic/religious identity. It was pretty exclusionary term.

 

Bill 

 

I never heard that.  I certainly was not high class, and yet I was taught to identify as "WASP."  I mean, definitionally, it's what I was.  The exclusionary part was that folks who came to the US later, like my grandmother (many of whom were Catholic or Jewish), or under heinous conditions, such as slaves and "coolies," were looked down upon.  One doesn't require wealth to put others down for stupid reasons.  Quite the contrary.

 

Though in my lifetime, WASP became derogatory, often used to mean "racist, intolerant white people who only care about their own kind."

 

[HS Mom in NC]

Usually when someone is a hyphenated American, their ethnic/racial background is listed first (Korean, African, etc.) and their citizenship is listed last. It can be argued that their culture fits both categories because their extended family culture may be different than the wider culture (American) that they live in. Diverse societies are just more complex.

 

Not everything is precise.  Defining "religion" isn't precise either, but we still use the word and large subcategories like "Christian" even though that's a huge spectrum of very different beliefs too.

 

Lots of words have somewhat  different meanings and/or connotations depending on who's using them, the tone they're using, and the context in which they're using them.  Life is complicated and messy.

[Spy Car]

I never heard that.  I certainly was not high class, and yet I was taught to identify as "WASP."  I mean, definitionally, it's what I was.  The exclusionary part was that folks who came to the US later, like my grandmother (many of whom were Catholic or Jewish), or under heinous conditions, such as slaves and "coolies," were looked down upon.  One doesn't require wealth to put others down for stupid reasons.  Quite the contrary.

 

Though in my lifetime, WASP became derogatory, often used to mean "racist, intolerant white people who only care about their own kind."

 

The term is somewhat amorphous, but among "blue-bloods" the term WASP eliminated the "lower social orders" whether they where white Anglo-Saxon and Protestant (or not) in a technical sense, and required belonging to the right clubs, the right churches, attending the right Universities (and being in the right dining-halls), and other things of that nature.

 

 

So while some middle-class whites i(and lower) identified as WASPs, it doesn't mean WASPs at the top of the social ladder would have accepted them as such. As I say, it was used pretty much as an exclusionary term. different groups (at different socio-econonic stations) excluded different people.

 

Bill

[MyThreeSons]

Just wondering what people think of the "ethnicity" categories recognized in the US and how Hive members think it should be.  I have some thoughts of my own, but I want so see what you all think.

A side note: Back in 2010, I did some work for the US Census Bureau. I was one of those people who went to addresses that had not turned in a form. We filled out the form on the spot, but we had to ask the people for the information. Whatever someone claimed for their race, that's what we had to put down, even if they didn't look like what they said. And we weren't allowed to explain the choices -- we could only read the list to them and have them choose.

[Sahamamama]

My Mediterranean husband is a lovely shade of brown, sort of like hazelnut milk chocolate (in the summer) or coffee with a little cream (his winter coat). He says I'm not White, I'm Clear. Our children manifest hybrid vigor. ;)