How to change bedtime?

[Maus]

My older two kids and I now have a paper route.  I have to get up at 1:45 a.m., and they have to get up at 3:30.  So we changed bedtime to 7:00 p.m.

 

Complication.  The three-year-old has always been a night owl.  We spent a long three months last Fall getting her to sleep by midnight, instead of 2:00 a.m.  We've been trying to get her in bed when we go at 7:00, but she is extremely awake and noisy until, on the best nights, somewhere around 10:00 p.m.

 

I've been trying to wake her up early.  It works sometimes.

 

We really need to reset her little internal clock.

 

Dosing her with Benadryl would be bad, right?, since she's not even supposed to take it for allergies at this age.  Any other ideas?

[Pamela H in Texas]

Goodness, my 3yo (and 4, 5, 6,and 7yos) have a 7 o'clock bedtime and get up at 7 (well, a tad earlier but are allowed out of their rooms at 7).  My experience is that most kids who stay up late (read MOST, not all as even I had one who needed considerably less sleep than average), but most who stay up late are those who are allowed to get their second wind.  By backing up to 7 or 7:30, a lot of families can cut down the bedtime drama significantly. 

 

As for specifics, it really just takes a little time. After waking up early a few days, he should be better able to fall asleep earlier.  Also, I'd work on wearing him out.  Physical and sensory play, plenty of it, will help also. Past that?  At 3, I'd treat it as a discipline issue after the first few days***.  If he isn't lying still with his eyes closed, then he's disobeying.  I would be firm though not harsh, primarily because it sounds like he's been allowed to push these rules so punishing him wouldn't be particularly fair.  But being firm about the limits will make it work out faster.

 

***ETA:  a "few days" would depend on the circumstances and the child.  When we had a different nighttime issue with one of our kiddos, we found a wonderful method to fix it.  We gave the child 2 weeks of solid help, redirection, reminders, empathy, etc before "drawing the line." And that was that.  All of our lives changed for the better at that point.  I will grant that the child was 4, not 3.  But we are pretty firm even with 1yos. 

[Catwoman]

I wouldn't treat it as a discipline issue at all.

 

I don't think a 3yo understands that it's suddenly bedtime several hours before she is used to going to bed. I can understand backing up bedtime by around 15 minutes or so at a time, but several hours all at once? No way. I'm amazed that your other kids have managed to adapt to that kind of huge change.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Cat, 

 

I just want it clear that though I think it *is* a discipline issue for a 3yo to refuse to lie still and try to go to sleep (we say that you're either asleep or pretending to be), especially since this is an ongoing issue, I also was more than fair in giving several ideas to help the child, over time (whatever would be reasonable for that child).

 

AND it isn't like I don't have experience.  How many foster kids do you think had 7pm bedtimes prior to getting to me?  I know no families who have that early of a bedtime and I can pretty much guarantee kids living in cars/hotels, with partying parents, etc are doing so.  I can be empathetic. I can be kind.  I can help them in multiple different ways.  But in short order, they need to be getting enough sleep to be healthy.  And *I* need them in bed at a decent (or better!) time :) 

 

 

[Catwoman]

Cat,

 

I just want it clear that though I think it *is* a discipline issue for a 3yo to refuse to lie still and try to go to sleep (we say that you're either asleep or pretending to be), especially since this is an ongoing issue, I also was more than fair in giving several ideas to help the child, over time (whatever would be reasonable for that child).

 

AND it isn't like I don't have experience. How many foster kids do you think had 7pm bedtimes prior to getting to me? I know no families who have that early of a bedtime and I can pretty much guarantee kids living in cars/hotels, with partying parents, etc are doing so. I can be empathetic. I can be kind. I can help them in multiple different ways. But in short order, they need to be getting enough sleep to be healthy. And *I* need them in bed at a decent (or better!) time :)

You seem to be a little defensive about this, Pamela. I didn't say you were wrong; I said that I disagreed with you.

 

I happen to think it is mean to try to force a 3yo child to lie alone and be still in bed for up to 3 or more hours a night, until she can finally fall asleep, when she has always been accustomed to being allowed to stay up much later. It would feel like a terrible punishment, when the child has done nothing wrong.

 

I don't think it is at all fair to change a child's routine to such an extreme without doing it gradually, over time.

[Tammi K]

A discipline issue? That seems harsh. The best advise for people with difficulty falling asleep is to NOT  remain in bed if you can't fall asleep, but to get up and do something else until they are drowsy. It seems to me the forcing a kid to stay in bed if they aren't able to sleep would be creating more sleep issues.

 

[Pamela H in Texas]

I feel like I'm being misunderstood.  There are no children in this house lying in bed for hours unable to fall asleep (except due to medication which we promptly changed!).  And I specifically said NOT to be harsh as that would be unfair since the behavior was allowed originally.  Not to mention, when have you known any of my discipline suggestions to be harsh?   I do think that if you wear the child out and get him up at 3am, the chances he wouldn't go to bed before midnight within several days is pretty slim.  

 

You didn't disagree with anything I actually said.  I was clarifying just in case that was due to my poor writing.

[Joker]

I think you're asking way too much of your toddler. At that age, my dds were going to sleep at 7pm and waking at 7am. There is no way they would have functioned properly (meaning going to bed well the next night) if they went to sleep at 7pm and were up at 3/4am. It just creates a vicious cycle of being tired and not getting enough sleep but not being able to sleep well. If you really have to have her up that early, then you need to slowly move her bedtime back to way earlier, IMHO.

[unsinkable]

I am in the slowly turn back the bed time camp. 30 minutes a week or so.

 

I'd think a sudden 7 pm bedtime when it used to be midnight would be a disaster.

 

And kids in their bedrooms for 12 hours?!?! My kids never slept that much as toddlers, preschoolers or schoolaged. Maybe the boys have during teen growth spurts or illnesses.

[sbgrace]

Well, I'll probably get slammed for this, but melatonin (small dose, like 1/2 mg..you can get small doses from Amazon in the Pure Encapsulations brand) can help shift a sleep clock. My son has been taking it, after his geneticist suggested it, since he was 3 and he's 9 now. Obviously a few nights to adjust a sleep schedule would cause no concern in my mind. It would be safer and promote less disturbed sleep than benadryl--I wouldn't do that. That said 7 pm to 3 am wouldn't be enough sleep for either of my boys even now, let alone when they were that young! Will she nap?

[LucyStoner]

If I were delivering papers very early in the morning, I'd have better luck moving the boys to the car in their jammies under blankets when it was time to go. But mine will fall right back asleep in the car under these conditions and I know some will not. There is no way either could go to bed by 7PM. It just would not work.

[Maus]

Just to clarify, I'm not getting the three year old up at 3:30. DH doesn't leave for work until 8:00ish, and it route is supposed to be complete by 6:00 (we usually make it). I have been trying to get my little night owl up before DH leaves, so between 7:00-8:00.

 

I'd like to be transitioning straight from route to school work, finishing our whole day up earlier. So far, it's not happening.

 

The melatonin thing sounds worth trying.

 

She usually obeys when I put her in bed and insist she stay there, but she won't/ can't obey instructions to be quiet. She sings, talks to herself ( loudly), kicks the wall, plays games ( even if there aren't any toys, she entertains herself with her hands, calling them ' spider'.)

[AK_Mom4]

It sounds like you have two different household schedules going on.  You and the paper delivery crew need to go to bed early and get up REALLY early.  You DH and the 3yo are up later and sleep in later.

 

If she is pretty good about staying in bed (if a bit noisy), I would have her stay up later and have your DH put her to bed around 10pm.  Then let her sleep until 8am.  That would be plenty of sleep, but make it possible for her to be tired again by bedtime.

 

You may have to separate her sleeping area from the rest of you so she doesn't wake you up when she goes to bed.  We found that playing music or audiobooks at night helped our sleepless-wonder wind down more quietly.

[fairfarmhand]

Is the 3 yo napping? That may be the issue. I know..she will be a terrible bear for a few days. But let her outside to run around. Let her wear herself out. Don't go for long drives when she will doze off.  Most of my kids made the transition from naps to no naps around 3. If they got a nap, yes, they would b e up till midnight. I learned quickly that it was easier to deal with a grumpy kid from 4-6 pm than it was to stay up so late every night.

 

If a kid can get up at 6 and stay up till midnight with no nap, something is wrong.

 

And don't vary this routine at all on the weekend. Yeah. I know you want to sleep in on non-working days, but getting this kid in a healthy sleep routine is key to your (and everyone else's) sanity.

 

Get kiddo up as soon as you walk in the door from the route. That will help. Run her ragged all day. Bath before supper.  Quiet stories, soothing music afterward. She goes to bed at 7.  You may want to lay with her for a few days and rub her back. (tell her this is a short term thing that will only happen for 7 nights)

 

Give her 2 toys that she can play quietly with.

[mommymilkies]

The kid is three. That is asking too much at once. I agree with an OP about letting the 3 yo stay up with dad. IME, night owls are extremely hard to change. Especially so drastically.

[Joker]

I think it's awesome that you can put her in bed and she stays there while entertaining herself until she falls asleep. I would not want to turn bedtime for her into a battle and push her being completely quiet. She might come to hate bedtime and act out instead of just entertaining herself and then you would have more problems than you do now.

[TammyinTN]

Just to clarify, I'm not getting the three year old up at 3:30. DH doesn't leave for work until 8:00ish, and it route is supposed to be complete by 6:00 (we usually make it). I have been trying to get my little night owl up before DH leaves, so between 7:00-8:00.

 

I'd like to be transitioning straight from route to school work, finishing our whole day up earlier. So far, it's not happening.

 

The melatonin thing sounds worth trying.

 

She usually obeys when I put her in bed and insist she stay there, but she won't/ can't obey instructions to be quiet. She sings, talks to herself ( loudly), kicks the wall, plays games ( even if there aren't any toys, she entertains herself with her hands, calling them ' spider'.)

I think she's doing beautifully to go to bed at 7 and entertain herself until she falls asleep.  I understand wanting her to get to bed at a reasonable hour and up early to get busy with the day.   Would it be possible for Dad to put her bed at 8pm each night...and you get her up at 7am?  I know it's a pain, but I would just turn on lights, sing and dance around to get her moving in the morning when you need to.  

[Wabi Sabi]

I'm just curious- if your spouse and the younger child are at home, why on earth are your 8 and 10 year olds having to wake in the middle of the night to deliver papers? Can't they stay home in bed too?

[AlmiraGulch]

How to change a bedtime?  Gradually.  Just like people gradually move bedtimes back, you need to move it up gradually.  And like others said, if she's napping, stop that if you can, and get her up earlier if you can.  She'll adjust.

 

A discipline issue?  I swear I've heard it all now.  Unbelievable. (And no, OP, this is not intended for you, but for Pamela. Holy smokes.)

[Catwoman]

I'm just curious- if your spouse and the younger child are at home, why on earth are your 8 and 10 year olds having to wake in the middle of the night to deliver papers? Can't they stay home in bed too?

I can't believe I completely missed that when I read the OP!

 

Now I'm wondering, too.

[Tammi K]

 

 

If a kid can get up at 6 and stay up till midnight with no nap, something is wrong.

 

 

Just curious. What do you think would be 'wrong'?

 

[bettyandbob]

 In all likelihood a 3 yo having a schedule where she rises at 6 am and goes to bed at midnight is not getting enough sleep. You may not have figured out how to get her to sleep. You pediatrician may not note anything special beyond "well, maybe she doesn't need the sleep." But there is likely a real issue and you and the pediatrician may not have the expertise to pick up on it. 

 

There a long term consequences to having a sleep deficit. Most manifest themselves in behavior and attention and learning. Lack of sleep affects immune response. Additionally, persons who do not get enough sleep often overeat. 

 

I have 2 dc who had sleep issues. One is now 18 and we never addressed them because I didn't understand sleep. I now realize sleep was probably (and still probably) a big issue with things we've dealt with with him. He's an adult now and has to make his own decisions about dealing with it. I am sure he has sleep apnea. He also has anxiety which contributes to difficulty getting to sleep and then not enough sleep increases anxiety. 

 

We have spent the last year addressing sleep with my younger ds , who has intellectual disabilities. He had to have surgery. He no longer snores. Sleep studies show he is getting enough oxygen while sleeping--before his blood oxygen was dropping quite low. I can see he has better attention when he is awake. He doesn't get silly from being overtired , which he used to do quite often. He does not get mild illnesses all the time like before. 

 

There might be a 3 year old who functions just fine on 6 hours of sleep a night and the OPs child might be that 3 yo, but the vast majority of 3 yos don't and you will often not notice the consequences because they build slowly overtime, to the point that you will say "she was always like that", "it's just her personality."

[fairfarmhand]

Just curious. What do you think would be 'wrong'?

 

 

healthwise, that's really odd for a 3 year old to be able to make it from six till midnight with no nap. I know most adults couldn't handle that schedule without a breakdown after a few days.

[Tammi K]

 

 

If a kid can get up at 6 and stay up till midnight with no nap, something is wrong.

 

 

 

healthwise, that's really odd for a 3 year old to be able to make it from six till midnight with no nap. I know most adults couldn't handle that schedule without a breakdown after a few days.

 

Misunderstood your comment. I seemed you were saying that if a child stayed awake from 6 til midnight it was an indication that something WAS wrong...not that if someone stayed awake that long it would cause a problem.

[Maus]

I'm just curious- if your spouse and the younger child are at home, why on earth are your 8 and 10 year olds having to wake in the middle of the night to deliver papers? Can't they stay home in bed too?

The 10-year-old wanted the paper route.  You used to be able to get one when you turned nine here, but now you have to be 18 and own a car and have insurance.  They still let younger people "throw," so once I've picked up and folded the papers (which now has to be done at the depot, where the minimum age to enter is 16), I pick the kids up to drive the route, which starts just one street north of where we live.

 

While I have to be to the depot by about 2:30, I don't get back home with the papers until about 3:30/4:00, so that's when I wake them.

 

The 8-year-old has to do everything her big brother does, so once she learned he was going to be earning money, she wanted in on it.  If she were just newly eight, I would probably have told her she was too young, but she is only about six weeks from her ninth birthday.  (Likewise, her brother will be 11 in about eight weeks.)

 

It's a fairly common arrangement here.  In fact, we heard about the route from another homeschool mom who is doing the same thing with her kids.  There are a surprising number of families who work a paper route for extra cash.

 

Neither of the older two are night owls, so they've made the transition better than I have, and they are still getting nine hours of sleep, which is about what they always gravitate to when allowed to sleep as long as they want.  In fact, earlier in the summer, when I was getting up at 5:30 to walk with a friend, my son was usually already up, and my daughter was usually reading quietly in her room.  So, not that big a shift for them, or I don't think I would have dared.

[fairfarmhand]

The 10-year-old wanted the paper route.  You used to be able to get one when you turned nine here, but now you have to be 18 and own a car and have insurance.  They still let younger people "throw," so once I've picked up and folded the papers (which now has to be done at the depot, where the minimum age to enter is 16), I pick the kids up to drive the route, which starts just one street north of where we live.

 

While I have to be to the depot by about 2:30, I don't get back home with the papers until about 4:00, so that's when I wake them.

 

The 8-year-old has to do everything her big brother does, so once she learned he was going to be earning money, she wanted in on it.  If she were just newly eight, I would probably have told her she was too young, but she is only about six weeks from her ninth birthday.  (Likewise, her brother will be 11 in about eight weeks.)

 

It's a fairly common arrangement here.  In fact, we heard about the route from another homeschool mom who is doing the same thing with her kids.  There are a surprising number of families who work a paper route for extra cash.

 

Neither of the older two are night owls, so they've made the transition better than I have, and they are still getting nine hours of sleep, which is about what they always gravitate to when allowed to sleep as long as they want.

 

you are a better mother than me. My kids would have asked, and I would have said, "There's no way in the world that I'm driving anywhere at 2 in the morning."

 

[bettyandbob]

Yeah. I think I would have helped the older dc start a dog walking/pet care business. 

 

Wait, I did do that. dd started a pet care business at 8. The first year she had one client who traveled a lot. Then she expanded to other neighbors. She added plant watering for people on vacation. I went with her to jobs until a couple of years ago. It is easily something a mom can supervise with 2 tween kids while watching a baby. Maybe the newspapers pay more. Is it a big paper. ds had a weekly route for a local paper years ago. He got 6 cents a paper. That was definitely less than pet care.

[Catwoman]

The 10-year-old wanted the paper route. You used to be able to get one when you turned nine here, but now you have to be 18 and own a car and have insurance. They still let younger people "throw," so once I've picked up and folded the papers (which now has to be done at the depot, where the minimum age to enter is 16), I pick the kids up to drive the route, which starts just one street north of where we live.

 

While I have to be to the depot by about 2:30, I don't get back home with the papers until about 3:30/4:00, so that's when I wake them.

 

The 8-year-old has to do everything her big brother does, so once she learned he was going to be earning money, she wanted in on it. If she were just newly eight, I would probably have told her she was too young, but she is only about six weeks from her ninth birthday. (Likewise, her brother will be 11 in about eight weeks.)

 

It's a fairly common arrangement here. In fact, we heard about the route from another homeschool mom who is doing the same thing with her kids. There are a surprising number of families who work a paper route for extra cash.

 

Neither of the older two are night owls, so they've made the transition better than I have, and they are still getting nine hours of sleep, which is about what they always gravitate to when allowed to sleep as long as they want. In fact, earlier in the summer, when I was getting up at 5:30 to walk with a friend, my son was usually already up, and my daughter was usually reading quietly in her room. So, not that big a shift for them, or I don't think I would have dared.

I can't imagine that the income from the paper route would be worth dealing with that kind of rotten schedule. Paper routes put a lot of mileage on your car, eat up the tires and brakes, use a lot of gas, and also take quite a bit of time. Are you sure you're not going to end up losing money on this job?

[regentrude]

Now I am curious: is a paper route really paying that much that it is worth for mom to get up at 1:45am and for the entire family to have a messed up schedule?

I can see making such a sacrifice for an actual adult income, but not for pocket money. Do they really pay that well?

[ThursdayNext]

In all likelihood a 3 yo having a schedule where she rises at 6 am and goes to bed at midnight is not getting enough sleep. You may not have figured out how to get her to sleep. You pediatrician may not note anything special beyond "well, maybe she doesn't need the sleep." But there is likely a real issue and you and the pediatrician may not have the expertise to pick up on it.

 

There a long term consequences to having a sleep deficit. Most manifest themselves in behavior and attention and learning. Lack of sleep affects immune response.

.......

 

There might be a 3 year old who functions just fine on 6 hours of sleep a night and the OPs child might be that 3 yo, but the vast majority of 3 yos don't and you will often not notice the consequences because they build slowly overtime, to the point that you will say "she was always like that", "it's just her personality."

So I'm usually just lurking here, but have to comment on this one. I have a 2 1/2 year old boy who has never slept well. The world's worst napper back when we tried to do naps and has a hard time falling asleep. More recently, he just couldn't fall asleep til about 11 pm or midnight.

 

Well this summer his big sister had evening swimming lessons, and he fell asleep on the way home half the nights. Huge difference when he got that full night sleep. I went to the pediatrician to talk about it, but he blew me off with "He'll get the sleep he needs. He's doing fine on this amount of sleep." Like I'm some silly mom who just wants a break and can't tell my toddler to go to bed. It's not that I'm just inconvenienced by his difficulty sleeping, it's for my son's sake. He does better than most little kids would do on 7 or 8 hrs sleep, and seeming to be functioning well. His big sister and baby brother would totally melt down on his former sleep schedule.

 

Also this summer he was diagnosed with PDD- NOS, on the mildest end of the autism spectrum. Googling autism & sleep showed that many parents with autistic and ADHD kids are using Melatonin. We started with 1 milligram of liquid melatonin every night, now reducing to .75. It's like a miracle. He is nodding off 45 min to an hour after he takes it. He is now getting about 11 hrs of sleep ( no nap).

 

He is doing so much better with 3 or 4 hours more sleep. He stumbles and falls less. He speaks more clearly. He has fewer tantrums. (But he IS still 2 and stubborn ;) ) Unless you had something better to compare it to, you'd say that our boy on less sleep is just how he is. When he had his evaluation, going on only 6 hrs sleep, he tested high on verbal abilities and very high on visual problem solving. BUT he's doing even better now. Before, he could do a 25 piece puzzle. After a week of good rest, he was doing 50 piece puzzles in 15 min! We've also noticed a difference in his creativity.

I just want to say how much sleep makes a difference. My son still sleeps less than his peers who get a full night a 2 hr nap. but i'd hesitate to say that a toddler getting 6-8 hrs just needs less sleep. It's worth trying melatonin, or herbal remedies, trying new routines, checking for food intolerances.