Arguing over college course choices

[ValRN]

Hive, I need your help. DS (1st semester freshman in fall 2013) registered for his college courses yesterday. The university insisted upon the students doing this with a school advisor and without a parent. So when DS shows me what courses he registered for, he had picked 2 junior (300) level courses (one of which is not even required for his major) that have prerequisites he of course had not met because this will be his first semester there. Also, he did not register for the English 100 course that is required in one of the first two semesters. And on that note, if he did not score well enough on the placement test (everyone is required to take them), he will have to take a remedial English course in 1st semester before taking the Eng 100 in 2nd semester. He did not know his placement test results because they were not available to him on the day he chose his courses. He did not bring this up with the advisor.

 

When I informed him of the fact that those two courses were not meant for freshman, he eventually blows up and says, "Well, I think the advisor knows more than you about what courses I may take." Mind you, I've read through all of the requirements for his major, emphasis, and for the BA degree in the student handbook. Each time things get heated, I end the discussion because I do not want to argue with him over this.

 

After trying to broach the subject several times, and it ending up in a shouting match, I've given up.

 

I've tried to explain to him that he has to be very diligent about completing the required courses in 4 years because his scholarship ends in 4 years, and we will not be able to afford to pay for another year since will have 2 kids in college at that time.

 

Does anyone have any advice for me on how to discuss this with DS without him feeling like I'm trying to control his course choices? He has made a flashcard for every course he must take to complete his degree, and each card has the prereqs on it. He took the cards for the courses for 1st semester with him when he registered, but somehow ventured away from the decision to stick with that plan. I am upset with the advisor because she allowed him to sign up for courses that have prereqs which he has not met, a course that is not required for his major, and allowed him to not sign up for any gen ed courses. That's neither here nor there. At this point, I need help on how to approach this with DS. Any advice would be helpful.

 

Val

[AngieW in Texas]

My oldest is like this, so I feel for you. She ended up signing up for a creative writing course her first semester that I knew was not going to go well. She did at least end up with a B- in the class.

 

Both of my girls know they have only 8 semesters to finish because that's how many their scholarships pay for.

 

My oldest has now completed 3 semesters and needs just 3 more semesters to finish (because she took a lot of dual credit classes). She always fights over going to see her adviser though. I start bugging her about making an appointment with her adviser right before they release the schedules for the next semester. She always ends up registering 2-3 weeks after she is eligible because she puts off seeing her adviser for so long.

 

For fall semester, she decided that she wanted to switch majors to computer science. She finally went to see a CS adviser a couple of days after she was eligible to register. In order to complete the degree in the 5 semesters she had left, she would have to take 21 hours every semester and that would translate to about 25 class hours each semester because of labs. She changed her mind at that point, but then it took her another week to bring herself to go to see her adviser about what she should register for.

 

Right now I'm trying to get her to go see her adviser to make sure that she can finish in 3 more semesters. That's what it looks like she needs, but there may be requirements that I don't know about.

 

I don't know what advice to give you about getting your ds to listen because I haven't had much success with getting my dd to listen. The only thing she has listened to me about is signing up for one more class than she intends to take so she has the option of dropping one if she doesn't like the instructor or the class isn't what she thought it was going to be.

 

Fortunately, my other two girls are much better about listening. I'm not trying to shoehorn any of them into taking particular courses. I'm just trying to make sure that they can graduate with some degree before their scholarships run out, hopefully a degree they want. But after 3 semesters is kind of late to be changing your degree from animation to computer science, especially when your grades in the two cs classes so far were B- and C-.

[regentrude]

Maybe it helps if it is not coming from you, his mom, but from somebody else?

If so, please tell your son from me that, unfortunately, not all advisors are diligent about their job. As a college instructor, I see cases of poor advising every single semester, when advisors tell students to take a course that is not intended for their major, or tell them to go ahead and take the course without meeting the prerequisite. It happens all the time, and there is nothing the student can do except be vigilant and proactive and question the advice he receives if it does not seem to mesh with how he understands the program to work. A good advisor will take the time to explain the reasoning behind his recommendations and answer the student's questions.

 

I would encourage your son to contact the instructors of the upper level classes he has signed up for and ask whether it is OK for him to take the course. He can tell them his advisor said it was fine. They might tell him that the prereq is no big deal and exists just on paper, or they will tell him he can not take the class. It would be better if he sorted this out now rather than during teh first week of class.

 

I am sorry this has happened, and I am outraged about the poor advising he received. Particularly for an incoming freshman, they should be diligent.

[ValRN]

Maybe it helps if it is not coming from you, his mom, but from somebody else?

If so, please tell your son from me that, unfortunately, not all advisors are diligent about their job. As a college instructor, I see cases of poor advising every single semester, when advisors tell students to take a course that is not intended for their major, or tell them to go ahead and take the course without meeting the prerequisite. It happens all the time, and there is nothing the student can do except be vigilant and proactive and question the advice he receives if it does not seem to mesh with how he understands the program to work. A good advisor will take the time to explain the reasoning behind his recommendations and answer the student's questions.

 

I would encourage your son to contact the instructors of the upper level classes he has signed up for and ask whether it is OK for him to take the course. He can tell them his advisor said it was fine. They might tell him that the prereq is no big deal and exists just on paper, or they will tell him he can not take the class. It would be better if he sorted this out now rather than during teh first week of class.

 

I am sorry this has happened, and I am outraged about the poor advising he received. Particularly for an incoming freshman, they should be diligent.

 

 

Regentrude - I will pass this information on to DS when I get a sense that he is more receptive to hearing it. At this point, we are both still upset. I told DS that it was best for him to address these issues immediately as opposed to waiting until the first week of classes (especially when alternative course choices with be at a minimum). He's not receptive. I am also outraged about the poor advising. I want to email the advisor so badly, but I realize that it would probably do more harm than good.

 

AngieWinTexas - Are you telling me that this is going to be a 4 year long battle?

Does he have one advisor assigned to him, or is it just whoever is available when he shows up? If the latter, encouraging a "second opinion" might help.

[Starr]

They are still somewhat parent tolerant until the kid steps onto campus. Something needs to be done. Are you close enough to take him in for a meeting with the advisor? He's no doubt stressed about college in general. :grouphug:

[SarahW]

Wouldn't he need permission from the head of the department to take a course without its pre-reqs? I had to get exemptions a few times, and that's what I had to do. There was a special form that needed to be signed and handed into the Registrar office before I could sign up.

 

Does the school have a course projections book? Something that tells you exactly which courses are offered each semester for a few years down the road? Get it and plug in every course his major and minor requires into a spreadsheet with Fall and Spring semester for each four years. Try to space out courses and credits - you really don't want to take more than one lab science class a semester, unless that's something required by your major. Show him that if he doesn't take, or fails, a class during a particular semester, he doesn't get an option to take it again until an inconvenient semester.

 

And yes, some advisers just suck. If I didn't plan out my courses years in advance I would have been one class short for one of my college majors.

[ValRN]

Does he have one advisor assigned to him, or is it just whoever is available when he shows up? If the latter, encouraging a "second opinion" might help.

 

 

An advisor (music faculty for music majors) is assigned to him.

[ksr5377]

Just agreeing that some advisors are terrible. Every advisor I had at my big state school, as well as those all my friends had, were just grad students doing what they had to do to get their paycheck. Some were OK but some really didn't care. My brother, at the same big state school, was just advised last year to NOT take a certain class my brother KNEW he needed to graduate in time. The advisor insisted it would fine to take it the next semester. My brother told the advisor it was only offered one semester a year, not EVERY semester. If he had listened to his advisor he would have graduated a semester later, just waiting to take that one class.

[ValRN]

They are still somewhat parent tolerant until the kid steps onto campus. Something needs to be done. Are you close enough to take him in for a meeting with the advisor? He's no doubt stressed about college in general. :grouphug:

 

 

We are close enough to take him; it's only an hour and a half away. However, DS will not be receptive to this. He thinks that I'm wrong and am trying to control his choices. I do believe something needs to be done, but this seems to be bordering on affecting son's and my relationship. I don't want to contact the advisor without his okay.

 

I do believe he is stressed and he has never been able to handle too much info at one time. This process was a 2-day orientation, course selection process for all of the honors/scholars students. I strongly feel that at the point of choosing courses, he was on information overload. Also (and to a fault), he is not one to question authority (except for his parents). He is the type of kid that believes that if someone says they are an advisor, then they know all the facts, and he has to do what they say.

[Lanny]

Your DS sounds like my Stepson. IMHO, you are 100% correct, in seeing this as a looming disaster and trying to prevent it. Why does he think he can take 300 level courses that have Pre Reqs? Why does he think that he does not need to take courses that are mandatory for his degree plan?

 

Is there someone that he respects, and whose advice he will follow, that can talk to him about this? The sooner your DS takes action to correct this, the easier it will be to correct this. Probably your DS will not listen to anything you have to say, about this topic, and if he does, it will go in one ear and out the other.

 

You are probably in the same shoes we are in with my Stepson...I wish you, and your DS, much good luck!

[8filltheheart]

Wouldn't he need permission from the head of the department to take a course without its pre-reqs? I had to get exemptions a few times, and that's what I had to do. There was a special form that needed to be signed and handed into the Registrar office before I could sign up.

 

 

Is he 100%positive that he really is registered for those classes, bc I agree w/Sarah that it normally takes overrides via dept signatures, not simply advisors, to get into classes w/o pre-reqs. A lot of times the computer will simply just throw out the registration.

 

Also, is he not able to access his test results via his student acct? Normally all those things are accessible via their web acct.

 

Fwiw, I am of mixed mind about how to deal with the situation. I normally take the approach of letting my kids learn via the natural consequences of their decisions. So, we talk, offer our insight/suggestions/strong recommendations but if they insist on going their own way......we let them fail. However, in this case, I might treat him more like our Aspie bc he does not know how to make sound decisions when he is overwhelmed by conflicting messages. With him, I would probably print out the course descriptions, highlight the pre-reqs and then print up tHe pre-reqs course descriptions, and their pre-reqs course descriptions if there is one. Then I would print out the 4yr plan and highlight where those courses would fit (they might fit electives.). Then I would leave them on his pillow with the simple message, "if you would like to talk to me, I am available. If not, please consider calling xxx-xxxx to confIrm your placement before purchasing textbooks." Btw, if I was paying for,the textbooks, I would make the last comment would end .....or you will be responsible for purchasing your own textbooks with your own money until confirmation is made."

[ValRN]

Is he 100%positive that he really is registered for those classes, bc I agree w/Sarah that it normally takes overrides via dept signatures, not simply advisors, to get into classes w/o pre-reqs. A lot of times the computer will simply just throw out the registration.

 

Also, is he not able to access his test results via his student acct? Normally all those things are accessible via their web acct.

 

Fwiw, I am of mixed mind about how to deal with the situation. I normally take the approach of letting my kids learn via the natural consequences of their decisions. So, we talk, offer our insight/suggestions/strong recommendations but if they insist on going their own way......we let them fail. However, in this case, I might treat him more like our Aspie bc he does not know how to make sound decisions when he is overwhelmed by conflicting messages. With him, I would probably print out the course descriptions, highlight the pre-reqs and then print up tHe pre-reqs course descriptions, and their pre-reqs course descriptions if there is one. Then I would print out the 4yr plan and highlight where those courses would fit (they might fit electives.). Then I would leave them on his pillow with the simple message, "if you would like to talk to me, I am available. If not, please consider calling xxx-xxxx to confIrm your placement before purchasing textbooks." Btw, if I was paying for,the textbooks, I would make the last comment would end .....or you will be responsible for purchasing your own textbooks with your own money until confirmation is made."

 

I am 100% positive that he is actually registered for those courses. There was family orientation at the same time the students were registering, and they informed us what to do if we felt our children's schedules need to be adjusted. My problem is not that I don't know what to do. It's that my ds is not receptive to making changes. I'm not sure about the department signatures w/prereq courses. My son was not told he needed to do anything further for those classes.

 

8FillTheHeart - I'm more inclined to take your second approach. Natural consequences, in this case, would affect more than just ds. If it gets to a point where he has to take more than 8 semesters, then it will impact our finances. Unless of course we tell him that anything past 8 semesters, he'll have to pay for. I'm pretty sure I've mentioned that, but ds does not seem to be a forward thinker.

 

I'm so stressed at this point, :cursing: and I'm sure ds is too. I'm done with it for the night. I feel him out in the morning to see if he is receptive to talking things over, but the time is ticking away. All non-honors/scholars students begin to register on Monday. That will leave less wiggle room for him in his choices.

 

Thank you for all of your suggestions. I really appreciate them. I had DH read them also.

[Barbara H]

Yes, the quality of advising varies dramatically. Some colleges draft faculty (who may or may not be trained), some have professional advisers who are well trained, and some have whatever hourly employee happens to be there. The person could be highly competent or totally incompetent. Often the worst advising a student receives is during freshman orientation! I do not believe you should go over his head. I don't think that's appropriate in this situation and it is sending the wrong message.

 

A story you may share: Here's how a friend's son ended up entirely retaking calculus II. He'd taken it as a college course during high school, gotten an a good grade and the credit fully transferred as it was in the same state university system. He told the orientation adviser that he thought they were signing him up for the wrong course and he produced a copy of his transcript. The adviser noted they had different course numbers (as is normal in that state university system) and this was the next course in the calculus sequence. His mother told him she thought it was a mistake. He got mad and insisted the adviser would not tell him the wrong thing. When he started the course that fall he thought it seemed like review, but figured that was normal. By the time he was sure it was the wrong course he'd already taken it was too late and he didn't want to go back to his mom and admit he messed up. So, that's how he ended up taking calculus II twice. It was a waste of time and money and yeah, he learned the lesson to keep with it when you have a question about advising.

 

College is a big transition and it is totally normal to feel unsure. One thing to keep in mind is that the people at the college are there to help. It doesn't mean that they will always give you the right advice, but it does mean that students should not hesitate to ask for help. Sometimes you won't get the right advice the first time. It is frustrating, but it happens. It is a typical feeling to be hesitant to ask for help - but it is important to push past it and try to keep in mind that everyone wants you to be successful. By asking for help you are allowing people to do their jobs.

[Julie in MN]

Is it possible for you to contact someone and, if there is an error, have them call your son to report the error? I know colleges frown on parent involvement, but I did contact a professor (for dual enrollment) and told her I realized this was unusual but I was calling as the administrator of our homeschool and needed an answer to a scheduling issue. She was very receptive.

 

Julie

[AngieW in Texas]

Unfortunately, this is likely to be an ongoing battle. My dd has talked about changing majors every semester. But then she won't go to see an adviser in the new department to get the flowchart for that major. She started talking about switching to computer science after her first semester (when she had a B- in computer science), but she refused to go talk to anybody in that department. The school she goes to requires all students to see an adviser to register for their first two semesters. Her adviser hounded her about coming in for advising and she finally did it, but of course, that was a couple of weeks after she was first eligible to register.

 

Everything my oldest needs to do, I have to push and cajole her to do it every step of the way. What she wants to do is wait until the last possible minute to do everything so that there are no choices left because then she doesn't have to make a decision.

[Wheres Toto]

I would probably print out the course descriptions, highlight the pre-reqs and then print up tHe pre-reqs course descriptions, and their pre-reqs course descriptions if there is one. Then I would print out the 4yr plan and highlight where those courses would fit (they might fit electives.). Then I would leave them on his pillow with the simple message, "if you would like to talk to me, I am available. If not, please consider calling xxx-xxxx to confIrm your placement before purchasing textbooks." Btw, if I was paying for,the textbooks, I would make the last comment would end .....or you will be responsible for purchasing your own textbooks with your own money until confirmation is made."

 

I think this is the tactic I would take in your situation. Slightly hands-off but providing the information he needs to make better choices.

It's a shame that an adviser would steer him so off-course. Ever wonder if they do stuff like that to generate more income from add/drop fees, late fees, and wasted courses?

 

My oldest only registered in-person with an adviser her first semester. Her second (and all subsequent) semester, she had to meet with her major adviser but registered on her own on-line. I wound up getting multiple text messages and phone calls both times.

[regentrude]

Ever wonder if they do stuff like that to generate more income from add/drop fees, late fees, and wasted courses?

 

No.

First of all, many schools don't have "add/drop fees", only fees per class or credit.

Second, the advisor would not benefit from this, nor would the academic departments to which most advisors belong. Having more students who are set up for failure enrolled in a course is of no benefit for the faculty, it just creates trouble and more work.

Third, not even the administration would benefit from any increased revenue, because the stats that make a school desirable and bring in student numbers factor in retention and graduation rate.

[Lanny]

<snip>be changing your degree from animation to computer science, especially when your grades in the two cs classes so far were B- and C-.

 

@AngieW in Texas Not to derail this thread, but I remember you posting about this and I didn't remember the B- and C- grades... NO NO NO to this switch! With grades like that, there is very little possibility of success.

 

C.S. is not like Electronic Engineering or Physics, but it is a pretty tough road, and with 2 grades like that, no way...

 

My Stepson, previously mentioned in this thread, started out, to my complete astonishment, (my wife said he did it because 2 of his friends enrolled in C.S.), in C.S., in one school. He didn't study and did very poorly. Then, my SIL got him a Slot in Electronics Technology, in a Public University. (I think it was a 3 year career, full degrees here are 5 years) which was even farther off the path for him and a much harder career in a much harder school. Had he studied Business, Marketing, or something else, not STEM, he could have done well...

 

The Network Drivers in his Dell Laptop, for some reason, disappeared or stopped working, and he couldn't connect to our LAN. My wife asked me to help him with that, yesterday, so you possibly can see how well he would have done, had he ended up working with computers...

 

If your DD does change majors, try to get her to avoid C.S. or other STEM majors. GL

[SarahW]

Just to agree with Lanny, my brother was a CS major and he went into college with over 10 years of programming already under his belt (he started young by checking language books out of the library). CS is a lot like a music major. You can't just decide to major in piano when you go to college if you have never taken piano lessons before in your life. I mean, theoretically it's possible, but not a good idea. CS is the same way. People in his classes who thought they could just learn C++ by signing up for the class and without any previous knowledge of programming never lasted long.

[AngieW in Texas]

She ended up switching back from game development/design to animation. Since they are both concentrations in the same major, it didn't mean any change in the length of time needed to graduate.

 

What killed her plan to switch to CS was the fact that she'd have to take Calculus I and II, Discrete Math I and II, Linear Algebra, and two semesters of calculus-based physics, and take at least 21 credit hours/semester. Despite the grades she had made in her two previous CS classes, she wouldn't believe me that trying to major in CS would be a bad idea and she refused to even consider just minoring in CS. She would also have lost her scholarship the first semester of trying it. It isn't that she isn't capable of doing the work. She is capable of it. She just isn't capable of managing her time well enough to make the grades she would need. Her low grades were due to her putting off starting the programming assignments until the last minute so that she didn't get them running correctly when she had to turn them in. She brought that grade up from a 58 at mid-term to a 72 at the end of the semester because she finally got scared that she would fail the class. She actually thought that it was the class she got the most out of. She has a lot of issues and has a lot of support possibilities available at no cost on campus, most of which she refuses to use. Concerta helps a lot, but it's not a miracle worker. She does have accommodations in several areas, but aside from being able to use her computer in class for note-taking, she mostly doesn't use them.

 

She managed to pull off just a D+ in government because it was a lecture hall class and the tests were all scantron and the quizzes had to be taken online outside of class. The quizzes were open-book, but she thought it was too much of a bother to actually look things up in the text while taking the quizzes and kept forgetting to do them until the last minute or forgetting to even log in. Each quiz was posted online for one week. At the end of the week, a zero would be posted if the quiz had not been taken. Once she logged in to take a quiz, she had 2 hours to complete it and then it scored what she had done at the end of the 2 hours. I ended up setting an alert on my phone so that I would remember to remind her every day to take the quizzes after she "forgot" two weeks in a row. I'm hoping to have her either CLEP out of the 2nd semester of government or take it at the cc next summer where she can have it in a small 35-student class with actual homework to help boost her grade. But she won't go talk to her adviser about it, and she can't do either one without getting approval from her adviser.

 

She is capable of a lot, but she really needs somebody sitting on top of her to push her through everything unless she is just doing things that she is interested in. What she really wants to do is sit in her apartment and watch tv and draw on her computer and that's about it. At least she does actually attend all of her classes and she generally does get all of the assignments turned in, even though she hasn't always managed to actually complete them because she puts them off for so long.

 

She knows that if she loses her scholarship, college will be over for her, so she does strive to at least keep that 3.0.

 

She just needs to make it through three more semesters.

[SkateLeft]

We went through orientation this past week also, and my daughter registered for classes on her own with an advisor while we attended parent orientation. My daughter's advisor was the chair of her department. There were general engineering advisors there, but he'd told her to wait for him to be available, since she was bringing in so much transfer credit, is in the honors program and is on the dual BS/MS track. We were very happy with her course selection.

 

I would not recommend contacting the advisor yourself. The reason that my daughter's university separates parents and students during advising is because they want the students to go through it independently. With FERPA, it's unlikely that they'd even be able to discuss his courses with you anyway unless your son has signed a release.

 

Maybe give it a couple of weeks, and then suggest to your son that he email his advisor just to "double check" that he's okay with those courses, even if he doesn't meet the prerequisites. He might be more amenable to contacting them once the situation has cooled a bit.

 

But if he won't, then let it go. He might end up juggling his schedule the first week of school when he gets to the class and finds that he isn't prepared for the content.

[Jenny in Florida]

Does anyone have any advice for me on how to discuss this with DS without him feeling like I'm trying to control his course choices? He has made a flashcard for every course he must take to complete his degree, and each card has the prereqs on it. He took the cards for the courses for 1st semester with him when he registered, but somehow ventured away from the decision to stick with that plan. I am upset with the advisor because she allowed him to sign up for courses that have prereqs which he has not met, a course that is not required for his major, and allowed him to not sign up for any gen ed courses. That's neither here nor there. At this point, I need help on how to approach this with DS. Any advice would be helpful.

 

 

I've had similar challenges with my son, not the specific situation, but the attitude that I can't possibly be as knowledgeable as whoever else he's listening to at the moment. I mean, it's not like I actually went to college, myself, or like I was involved in his big sister's college stuff just a couple of years ago, right? How would I have anything of value to offer?

 

Sigh.

 

The only thing I've found that works to get us out of this kind of mess is to remove emotion from the discussion and to get very clear cut about what I expect and what will happen if he doesn't follow through.

 

For example, my son is due to begin his first semester of dual enrollment this fall. When we were getting close to the date a few weeks ago on which registration was opening, I reminded him a couple of times that he would need to have his online account set up before he'd be able to register. He had his confirmation letter in hand with the necesarry code to set up the account, but just kept putting off actually doing it. Then one day he did it, without my inolvement and without sharing with me his chosen ID or password information or consulting about the security questions or his chosen answers. And all of that would be fine, if he had managed to choose things he would actually remember.

 

Meanwhile, the date for registration rolls around, and he again stalls for a few days. In fact, at this point, he hadn't even consulted the course catalogue or schedule and didn't understand the difference between a "course" and a "section" and, in general, had no idea what he was planning to take. Almost a week passed. Finally, I insisted he put "Register for courses" on his weekly planner as a school assignment, meaning if it wasn't done by the end of the week, he'd face the usual consequences we impose for not finishing schoolwork (usually beginning with banning screeen time for the weekend). On Thursday afternoon, he sat down to log in . . . and couldn't remember his password. Again, he didn't say anything to me, just kept trying various things until he locked himself out of the account. Only when the screen came up letting him know that he would have to go to the campus in person with photo ID in order to unlock the account did he tell me there was a problem.

 

I will admit my response was not my finest parenting moment. I, to put it politely, blew my stack. We argued for an hour or more until I finally withdrew.

 

Once I calmed down, I re-opened the conversation by first apologizing for allowing myself to get too involved in what should have been his process to manage. I told him I was beginning to wonder whether he was actually interested in dual enrolling at all, since it seemed to me almost as though he were sabotaging the process. I assured him that, if he didn't want to go through with this, there would be no penalty. We could simply continue in the fall with the things that are working this year, and life would go on. I just wanted him to take a little time to think about it, decide for himself what he wanted to do, and then let me know, politely. I also told him that, if he decided he did want to pursue dual enrollment, he needed to take the lead. I would be happy to constult and offer advice -- and as his "school of record," I would have to approve his course selections -- but he needed to figure out his short-term (this semester) and long-term (two years of dual enrollment) goals and come up with a list of possible courses for the fall. I told him that I, personally, was finding the limbo of not knowing things were settled for fall very stressful. So, he needed to take care of getting registered before it was time to leave for his dance classes on the following Tuesday. I would be happy to drive him to the campus so he could resolve the online account issue, but he needed to verify when the computer lab would be open and what, exactly, he needed to take with him.

 

I said one more time that, if dual enrollment wasn't something he wanted to do, that was fine. But we needed to make sure he was on track for fall. So, if 5:15 on Tuesday rolled around and he hadn't resolved the account problem, decided on and cleared his course selections with me and completed his registration with the college, I would assume he preferred to continue with FLVS and would put in course requests for him there on Tuesday evening. He tried to protest and assure me he really did want the dual enrollment and to make excuses, and I told him (pleasantly and politely) it didn't really matter. I was fine either way. Really. I just needed to have it settled. So, if he wanted to proceed, he knew what steps he had to take. And, if not, I'd assume he'd continue with FLVS and I'd take care of his registration there.

 

Now, what would you like for dinner?

 

The computer lab wasn't open on Monday, as it turned out. But he was up bright and early on Tuesday morning scooting through his school assignments for the day so that we would have time to drive to the campus and fix his account. I sat in a chair in the hallway while he worked with the staffers to unlock the account and set up a new password and security questions he would actually remember. I drove him home, and he logged in right away and looked at what courses were available. He asked if I had time to help him decide what he should take. We chatted about possibilities and scheduling. He was registered by 3:00 p.m. without any additional fuss.

 

What helps me is reminding myself that, if he's mature enough to go to colllege, then I have to treat him like he's mature enough to handle these kinds of things on his own. What works best for both of us, when I can stick to it, is for me to just make sure he understands the paramaters and the consequences of not meeting those expectations and then stand back.

 

In your son's situation, it's a little trickier, since it sounds like he's a regular, full-time student and not dual enrolled? In that case, I guess I don't really understand why much parental involvement is necessary or appropriate. However, if you do feel the need to intervene, and if you have financial involvement, maybe you could use that for leverage? I might try telling him, calmly, that you have serious concerns about whether the advisor understood his situation well enough to make helpful or accurate suggestions and that you don't want to see him coping with a mess once classes begin if he can take a little time now to verify his schedule, instead. I'd let him know that I would not be writing a check or handing over my credit card number to pay for books or supplies until I was assured that he would actually be able to take the classes for which he is currently registered. I'd remind him of the date on which classes are to start and tell him that, in my experience, lines at the bookstore get longer and crazier if one waits until the last minute to purchase books. I'd encourage him to try and avoid most of the rush by doing whatever was necessary to check on his schedule and course selections well in advance of the first day of classes. I'd assure him that I would be happy to offer advice or help him try and figure out the appropriate next step, but I'd let him know that, as a grown-up college student-type person, he needed to take the lead on managing the situation.

 

Then, I tell him I love him and ask him what he wants for dinner.

 

And I'd try not to lose sleep over it.

[AngieW in Texas]

Also be aware that at many universities, students that do not have the prerequisites for the courses they have registered for will be dropped automatically and they won't necessarily be informed of this fact. Students who have gotten instructor or department permission to register for a course despite not having the prerequisite have to be diligent about checking their list of registered classes to make sure they don't get dropped by mistake.

[swellmomma]

I have no advice for how to work with your son on the whole thing other than perhaps if he shared his schedule with a trusted adult who can ask why those courses, what teh advisor said etc in a way that doesn't make your ds assume that everyone is against him or something, but that the person is merely curious. It sounds like he instantly threw his defenses up against anything you had to say before you said it and was unresponsive from the get go. Also if he gets so over whelmed by a 2 day orientation/test taking/advisor meeting. How is he planning to cope with a full semester of courses that he is not prepared for? Does he have a plan for that?

 

On a side note I am finding this whole talk about advisors etc fasinating. See out here when you go to university/college you don't have an advisor unless you go to the student services office and ask to see one. You choose your own courses on your own, and then go to the registrar's office and sign up for them. It was up to students to know what they needed, what the pre-reqs were and ensure they met the requirements of their degree. I guess it was an extention of what we did in high school which was a similar situation. We went on registration day (without parents), and chose the courses we wanted to take in grade 10-12 (those are the high school years here), made sure we had the pre-reqs if any and that they would meet the graduation requirements on our own. The guidance counsellor was available if we needed help but generally no one did. We knew our game plans from the get go. It was good training for college/university. My parents stopped knowing what I was doing in school when I finished grade 9 and moved onto high school becuase I decided which semesters to take things, which sciences to take, which electives, how high of a level I wanted to go in each thing etc.

 

The exceptions to how that is run was the shorter programs, like the 1-2 year programs when you were accepted your courses were assigned with the rest of the group accepted, no choosing going on. Just the 3-4 year degrees did you pick and choose your courses.

 

Anyway, didn't mean to derail the convo, just finding this notion of needing an advisor to choose courses etc fascinating.

 

 

Which actually gives me a new idea. You mentioned he had all these index cards written out before his meeting. Can you approach him, tell him you are sorry for making him think you were against his courses, and that you are just so nervous about him going off to college. Then ask if he would be willing to make index cards of those newly registered for courses and lay out the full 8 semesters with those new cards slotted in, and having him move around everything else in an effort to meet the need to graduate in 4 years. The whole time do not make any negative comments, tell him you are excited about this new stage in his life, how as a mom you have to get used to letting go of him etc. Even if what you want to do is shake him silly and say "look at this mess you have created by not listening to me" lol. Clearly he is wanting a JAWM conversation everything else is an attack. Perhaps by lowering his guard a bit, laying it all out, and then having to physically shuffle the cards around and see for himself that it won't work he will address the situation. He sounds like the type that you have to lead to believe they come up with the plan themselves. The hope is that through this exercise he will get to thinking about it and in a few days be like "so I was thinking...." at which time you don't give a look, tone or word along the I told you so line, just an oh really? that sounds great let me know what you decide so we can get what you need for that semester.

 

Otherwise he may have to just learn the hard way, I have a son like that. You can warn, and tell and discuss until you are blue in the face, but he won't believe you until he falls flat on his face and then asks "why didn't you tell me?" *facepalm* some kids just need to learn through the school of hard knocks rather than learning from those that went ahead of them. I would let this happen. I would start reminding him near the end of 2nd year that in order to make up that lost semester he will need to take an extra semester at the end of his 4 years, and to start thinking about how he will afford that, what he will do in the next 2 years to save the money needed to do so etc. Again he may not really accept that you are not paying until registration day arrives and he will need to figure out a way to make it happen then, even if it means taking out a student loan for the one semester, applying for bursaries or other campus scholarships etc. But ultimately it comes down to detaching from the situation, smile and nod, give the JAWM responses he wants to hear and let him learn the hard way. After all he is an adult, and this is something he will need to learn in order to succeed in the world, how to question authority appropriately, but also how to accept guidance with grace. It won't be his utter down fall if he does not complete in 4 years, it will simply means that at 22 he will need to be mature enough to figure out what to do.

[Lanny]

Just to agree with Lanny, my brother was a CS major and he went into college with over 10 years of programming already under his belt (he started young by checking language books out of the library). CS is a lot like a music major. You can't just decide to major in piano when you go to college if you have never taken piano lessons before in your life. I mean, theoretically it's possible, but not a good idea. CS is the same way. People in his classes who thought they could just learn C++ by signing up for the class and without any previous knowledge of programming never lasted long.

 

I think someone who isn't "into" computers or electronics would have a rough time going for a C.S. degree. I started out, many years ago, as an Assembly Language programmer, which is very tough sledding. C++ is a snap in comparison to Assembly Language. So, about 5 years ago, I began studying a book about C++. For an old guy like myself, it was very hard wrapping my head around that. For those starting out at a Higher level, who never worked with Machine Language or Assembly Language, C++ is normal.

 

TTU and other universities, have many former Engineering majors, who are now in the School of Business, Education, or somewhere else.

 

I always suggest to people (especially DD) that it helps, a lot, if you can work at something you enjoy doing. I told my Stepson that, many times, but he didn't follow that suggestion.

[Nan in Mass]

We just signed up for freshman classes. Youngest went off to do it with an upper classman while the parents attended a presentation on how to support one's student. Is this a private school or a public school? Public schools are much more aware of the legalities involved with hippa and ferpa (or whatever the student privacy laws are called), although the two we've dealt with so far have been small enough that parents were told to please contact the administration if their student had a problem. Youngest is at a private school and we were told that they are have more leeway to set their own policies. The staff giving the presentation said that if there was a problem like yours, we were supposed to call the Dean of Students and explain the problem. They would then ask the student to come talk to them. We might or might not hear the results. They might or might not tell our son that they contacted him because we called. They said that they have, upon occasion, called a meeting of both the student and the parents and the advisor and mediated between the three. If it were my son, I would call and ask to speak to the Dean of Students, explain the situation (especially the scholarship part), and see if they can help.

 

I had a rotten advisor at my big public uni. My oldest had a good advisor but my middle son's left a lot to be desired. I think you need somebody in the administration to tell your son that advisors aren't infallible, right now when he is still figuring out how it all works, before he is disillusioned so badly that he loses faith in the whole system and decides it is worthless.

 

I have had arguments like this. They are awful.

Lots of hugs,

Nan

[SkateLeft]

On a side note I am finding this whole talk about advisors etc fasinating. See out here when you go to university/college you don't have an advisor unless you go to the student services office and ask to see one. You choose your own courses on your own, and then go to the registrar's office and sign up for them. It was up to students to know what they needed, what the pre-reqs were and ensure they met the requirements of their degree.

 

It varies from university to university. As far I know, most universities *don't* provide much in the way of advising, but that was a high priority for my daughter when she choose a college. When we were looking at schools, we found that most large public universities have limited, very general advising and support for undergraduates, while many private schools were more thorough. I suspect that's why private schools have higher 6 year graduation rates than public schools. My daughter's public university only has mandatory advising for engineering students.They place a registration hold until a student meets with their advisor.

 

My husband and I both attended UCs, and neither of us received any advising at all until graduate school. I would get a postcard in the mail each semester telling me to go talk to someone in my department to help choose my courses. The first semester, I made an appointment with a professor I liked, walked in and asked him to help with course selection. He said, "I can't tell you anything about that. I have no idea."

 

So we just figured it out on our own, applied for graduation and hoped we didn't miss anything. That's not what my daughter wanted, so we steered clear of schools that provide no advising support for undergrads.

[history_junkie]

Maybe it helps if it is not coming from you, his mom, but from somebody else?

If so, please tell your son from me that, unfortunately, not all advisors are diligent about their job. As a college instructor, I see cases of poor advising every single semester, when advisors tell students to take a course that is not intended for their major, or tell them to go ahead and take the course without meeting the prerequisite. It happens all the time, and there is nothing the student can do except be vigilant and proactive and question the advice he receives if it does not seem to mesh with how he understands the program to work. A good advisor will take the time to explain the reasoning behind his recommendations and answer the student's questions.

 

 

 

This happened to me. My first advisor was really new and didn't know what she was doing. Thankfully, my mom and I realized it and kind of did our own thing. The advisor I had for three years was a wonderful person and I still talked to him about my courses, but I got all of my read advice from another professor who knew me much better and was able to steer me in more profitable directions.

[history_junkie]

Maybe it helps if it is not coming from you, his mom, but from somebody else?

If so, please tell your son from me that, unfortunately, not all advisors are diligent about their job. As a college instructor, I see cases of poor advising every single semester, when advisors tell students to take a course that is not intended for their major, or tell them to go ahead and take the course without meeting the prerequisite. It happens all the time, and there is nothing the student can do except be vigilant and proactive and question the advice he receives if it does not seem to mesh with how he understands the program to work. A good advisor will take the time to explain the reasoning behind his recommendations and answer the student's questions.

 

 

 

This happened to me. My first advisor was really new and didn't know what she was doing. Thankfully, my mom and I realized it and kind of did our own thing. The advisor I had for three years was a wonderful person and I still talked to him about my courses, but I got all of my real advice from another professor who knew me much better and was able to steer me in more profitable directions.

[ValRN]

Hive, I need your help. DS (1st semester freshman in fall 2013) registered for his college courses yesterday. The university insisted upon the students doing this with a school advisor and without a parent. So when DS shows me what courses he registered for, he had picked 2 junior (300) level courses (one of which is not even required for his major) that have prerequisites he of course had not met because this will be his first semester there. Also, he did not register for the English 100 course that is required in one of the first two semesters. And on that note, if he did not score well enough on the placement test (everyone is required to take them), he will have to take a remedial English course in 1st semester before taking the Eng 100 in 2nd semester. He did not know his placement test results because they were not available to him on the day he chose his courses. He did not bring this up with the advisor.

 

When I informed him of the fact that those two courses were not meant for freshman, he eventually blows up and says, "Well, I think the advisor knows more than you about what courses I may take." Mind you, I've read through all of the requirements for his major, emphasis, and for the BA degree in the student handbook. Each time things get heated, I end the discussion because I do not want to argue with him over this.

 

After trying to broach the subject several times, and it ending up in a shouting match, I've given up.

 

I've tried to explain to him that he has to be very diligent about completing the required courses in 4 years because his scholarship ends in 4 years, and we will not be able to afford to pay for another year since will have 2 kids in college at that time.

 

Does anyone have any advice for me on how to discuss this with DS without him feeling like I'm trying to control his course choices? He has made a flashcard for every course he must take to complete his degree, and each card has the prereqs on it. He took the cards for the courses for 1st semester with him when he registered, but somehow ventured away from the decision to stick with that plan. I am upset with the advisor because she allowed him to sign up for courses that have prereqs which he has not met, a course that is not required for his major, and allowed him to not sign up for any gen ed courses. That's neither here nor there. At this point, I need help on how to approach this with DS. Any advice would be helpful.

 

Val

 

Update:

 

First off - thank you for all of your replies. I read every single one of them.

 

I took the advice to write ds a letter and requested that he contact his advisor. He did so, and she said,

 

"Yes, you should take both these classes as a first semester music major. To bypass the pre-requisites, you were given a particular permission allowing you to register. We try to keep classes fulfilling music major requirements only for music majors as much as possible, so you'll find many of your classes need our permission.You're all set. It's great that you are keeping track of things yourself - please continue to do so!"

 

DH and I still have reservations, so I asked ds to contact the actual instructors of those two courses and gave him a suggested wording for the email. He has yet to do so because he just woke up.

 

In the mean time (this morning), his advisor sent him an email (His account is set up so I get a duplicate of all of his emails. He is aware of this, so it isn't snooping. He uses another email account for his personal emails.) Saying that she does not know his English placement test results AND (this is the kicker) that she received word from one of the composition faculty members (one that my son has been talking with his entire 12th grade year, has taken a trial lesson with, and she is very familiar with my son's music background and future plans) and she said that said comp faculty wants ds to take MUSC224 (one of two of the prereqs for the upper level MUSC311 advisor has ds register for). The advisor then tells him to drop ENG100 to take this course. Mind you now that ds is not even registered for ENG100. DS has not seen the email yet, but I'm sure this will put him back into a kerfuffle.

 

I really wish ds would just sit down with dh and I to plan out all of the courses. He has made the flashcards for them, but he hasn't not used them to loosely plan out his 4 years.

 

I'll let you know what happens next in this saga. :confused1:

[Teachin'Mine]

It sounds like progress to me! Knowing is okay to question authority, and knowing they may be wrong, is an important lesson.

[Teachin'Mine]

It sounds like progress to me! Knowing is okay to question authority, and knowing they may be wrong, is an important lesson.

[In The Great White North]

He should probably read this thread too

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/477289-i-am-beyond-angry/

[Matryoshka]

He should probably read this thread too

 

http://forums.welltr...m-beyond-angry/

 

LOL - I was just coming here to post the same thing!

[Kareni]

What a very frustrating situation all around.

 

I was telling my husband about this thread. The catchy phrase he used was "Trust, but verify."

 

Regards,

Kareni

[creekland]

 

Update:

 

First off - thank you for all of your replies. I read every single one of them.

 

I took the advice to write ds a letter and requested that he contact his advisor. He did so, and she said,

 

"Yes, you should take both these classes as a first semester music major. To bypass the pre-requisites, you were given a particular permission allowing you to register. We try to keep classes fulfilling music major requirements only for music majors as much as possible, so you'll find many of your classes need our permission.You're all set. It's great that you are keeping track of things yourself - please continue to do so!"

 

DH and I still have reservations, so I asked ds to contact the actual instructors of those two courses and gave him a suggested wording for the email. He has yet to do so because he just woke up.

 

In the mean time (this morning), his advisor sent him an email (His account is set up so I get a duplicate of all of his emails. He is aware of this, so it isn't snooping. He uses another email account for his personal emails.) Saying that she does not know his English placement test results AND (this is the kicker) that she received word from one of the composition faculty members (one that my son has been talking with his entire 12th grade year, has taken a trial lesson with, and she is very familiar with my son's music background and future plans) and she said that said comp faculty wants ds to take MUSC224 (one of two of the prereqs for the upper level MUSC311 advisor has ds register for). The advisor then tells him to drop ENG100 to take this course. Mind you now that ds is not even registered for ENG100. DS has not seen the email yet, but I'm sure this will put him back into a kerfuffle.

 

I really wish ds would just sit down with dh and I to plan out all of the courses. He has made the flashcards for them, but he hasn't not used them to loosely plan out his 4 years.

 

I'll let you know what happens next in this saga. :confused1:

 

 

Thanks for the update. I'm thinking perhaps you have a new and/or overworked adviser. Hopefully it will end up being a good learning experience for your guy (and work out overall)!

[ValRN]

Another update as of 6/19/13

 

DS came to me Monday night, put his registration misc. on my desk, and asked, "Mom, can you help me?" Apparently, after all of the emails from his advisor and other music faculty, he needed a second opinion on how to sort things out because what everyone was suggesting left him with 19 credit hours instead of the 17 he started with.

 

I asked ds what he thought he should do. He had a very reasonable answer, so I allowed him to do it. He contacted his advisor, the composition instructor, the orchestra conductor, and the placement test office to clear things up. He's heard back from 1 instructor and learned that his English placement test has not been graded yet ("check back in about a week"). In the mean time, he dropped 1 of the 300-level courses. DS also sat down with DH and me and looked at all the courses he'll need to graduate and worked out a loose plan for the order in which courses should be taken.

 

I am confident that DS will be able to work things out with his schedule and other issues now that he understands that advisors can make mistakes and he has to be responsible for choosing the correct courses, knows where to go/who to go to for clarification, and is comfortable coming to us for help when he's stuck. DS and I have always had good communication. I guess he just was not ready to discuss his class schedule (or...I approached it in the wrong manner) after two days of orientation and course selection. When I picked him up that day, he did tell me that he was very tired. As a mom, I should have picked up on that and waited to discuss his schedule until he felt ready. I'm so glad that I was able to give him the space he needed to process everything. As a parent mentioned, I did feel like I was going to burst while hold everything in and not mention it. But, I held my tongue and allowed him to take the lead on it. I'm not perfect. I'm still working out this parenting thing. I'm sure I'll be back for more college advice before the fall semester is over. :huh: Thanks everyone!

[Gwen in VA]

Before the start of freshman year, we had our kids draft a 4-year plan of classes, taking into account gen eds and pre-reqs and major requirements.

 

After every registration period, they update their plan and make sure that they are still on track.

 

There are class conflicts, upper-level classes are not always offered, and interests change, but maintaining a 4-year plan helps them to stay on track without undue reliance on an advisor who may be focused on other things.

[Peach]

I'm glad to hear things are working out! This is likely a good preparation for him for registration and such going forward, when figuring out how to fit all your classes in begins to feel like solving a Rubik's cube :) I also think that dropping back from 19 hours was wise. That's a heavy load for a seasoned student, and could be overwhelming for a new one, especially in the music department.

[AngieW in Texas]

I do really like your plan of writing down all the courses on notecards. I think I'm going to sit down with my middle dd and do that with her this week. We can put a list of prerequisite courses on the cards too. She has to also fit in pre-OT courses that are not part of the degree plan. And she doesn't know yet if she is going to minor in speech pathology or switch majors from neuroscience to speech pathology or just do neuroscience.