NSA/PRISM/cell phone records - right to privacy? right to anything?

[nmoira]

I hope we can discuss this without resorting to partisan jabs and swipes. This has been signed off on during both a Republican and Democratic presidency and members of Congress are aware of and have approved what is going on.

 

The Guardian has recently broke a number of stories related to NSA surveillance of cell phone records and internet activity. I find the scope and vagueness of privacy safeguards to be alarming.

 

NSA collecting phone records of millions of Verizon customers daily

The National Security Agency: surveillance giant with eyes on America

NSA Prism program taps in to user data of Apple, Google and others

Boundless Informant: the NSA's secret tool to track global surveillance data

NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden: 'I don't want to live in a society that does these sort of things' – video (if you only click on link, make it this one)

 

This is big, and complicated, and apparently normalized to the point that no member of Congress (with the possible exception of Ron Wyden) has seen fit to fight it.

 

Privacy issues aside, given the mess that is the no-fly list, I shudder to think of the possibility of innocent people being ensnared by coincidence, confirmation bias and lack of safeguards. Data doesn't tell the story.

[nmoira]

Come now. :) People here get their backs up about being asked to supply a SSN at a doctor's office (I won't supply them) or filling out a census form (doesn't big me) for privacy concerns.

 

This is the real deal, approved by two branches of government and not at all transparent. Warrantless. Data kept in perpetuity. Citizens and non-citizens alike. Your government. You're paying for this, and for what? And at what cost to the country?

[elegantlion]

I watched the video in the last link. I'll admit, I haven't paid too much attention, because I've never believed any of my communication is truly private. I think his phrase, "architecture of oppression" is important.

 

I do believe it's an important question that we, as Americans, should have a say in. It also makes me wonder about my son's generation and how it will play out with most of their lives being tracked online already. Growing up most of my communication was through "isolated communication". Letters, getting real photos developed, talking to people in person, reading real books. Now, think about how much information could be gathered by a facebook, Amazon, google, and blog, all digital. It takes me about three minutes to reach back five years in my personal data.

 

Part of me thinks this is a generational question that won't be fully addressed in my lifetime. Who has rights to collect that information? If the government doesn't then what is stopping other entities? I want to live in a secure country, I'm not sure government monitoring provides that or negates that. I am certainly not lulled into a false sense of security thinking the men in black have my back. Still forming opinions on a lot of this current issue.

[TranquilMind]

I hope we can discuss this without resorting to partisan jabs and swipes. This has been signed off on during both a Republican and Democratic presidency and members of Congress are aware of and have approved what is going on.

 

The Guardian has recently broke a number of stories related to NSA surveillance of cell phone records and internet activity. I find the scope and vagueness of privacy safeguards to be alarming.

 

NSA collecting phone records of millions of Verizon customers daily

The National Security Agency: surveillance giant with eyes on America

NSA Prism program taps in to user data of Apple, Google and others

Boundless Informant: the NSA's secret tool to track global surveillance data

NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden: 'I don't want to live in a society that does these sort of things' – video (if you only click on link, make it this one)

 

This is big, and complicated, and apparently normalized to the point that no member of Congress (with the possible exception of Ron Wyden) has seen fit to fight it.

 

Privacy issues aside, given the mess that is the no-fly list, I shudder to think of the possibility of innocent people being ensnared by coincidence, confirmation bias and lack of safeguards. Data doesn't tell the story.

 

 

Someone in my local newspaper said, "I hope I don't accidentally butt-dial a ter*rorist!"

Yeah, no kidding!

 

I'm appalled at the invasiveness of every level of society now and I fight it every step of the way.

[Roadrunner]

Orwell must be smiling in his grave. As somebody who grew up in a totalitarian country, it baffles me that people are so unmoved by the massive erosion of privacy. Once you lose freedom, it's much harder to get it back.

 

[TranquilMind]

Orwell must be smiling in his grave. As somebody who grew up in a totalitarian country, it baffles me that people are so unmoved by the massive erosion of privacy. Once you lose freedom, it's much harder to get it back.

 

 

I don't get it at all, and I grew up here.

 

I just read that someone said Orwell was a prophet...he just got the year wrong.

[Reflections]

The Guardian is not the only news site reporting on this:

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/us-intelligence-mining-data-from-nine-us-internet-companies-in-broad-secret-program/2013/06/06/3a0c0da8-cebf-11e2-8845-d970ccb04497_story.html

 

Of course Google, Yahoo, Facebook are denying any involvement.

[sparrow]

I guess I'm surprised that people are surprised. I felt like the Patriot Act opened up a door that certainly wasn't going to be closed again.

[LaxMom]

The Guardian is not the only news site reporting on this:

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/us-intelligence-mining-data-from-nine-us-internet-companies-in-broad-secret-program/2013/06/06/3a0c0da8-cebf-11e2-8845-d970ccb04497_story.html

 

Of course Google, Yahoo, Facebook are denying any involvement.

I just caught the tail end of a story about it on ATC, and they have another, related story on Booz-Allen coming up.

 

I'm rather in the same frame as Paula: I'm not sure if I can reasonably think any communication I have is truly private, but I do mind this on an institutional level. But, then, I always have a problem with unfettered power and secret agencies, so...

[nmoira]

The Guardian is not the only news site reporting on this:

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/us-intelligence-mining-data-from-nine-us-internet-companies-in-broad-secret-program/2013/06/06/3a0c0da8-cebf-11e2-8845-d970ccb04497_story.html

 

Of course Google, Yahoo, Facebook are denying any involvement.

 

From what I understand if the technicalities, these companies are not necessarily dissembling on this. Each, however, is choosing their words carefully.

[Reflections]

From what I understand if the technicalities, these companies are not necessarily dissembling on this. Each, however, is choosing their words carefully.

 

 

Something like...we have never heard of Prism...we take our customers privacy seriously... we'd only do this with a court order....etc.

[wingedradical]

What surprises me is that people are surprised.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

According to Amazon's "Movers and Shakers" list, sales of Orwell's 1984 are up 75%.

[Jane in NC]

For years, the NSA did not officially exist, that is, everyone knew it existed and where its offices and "big ears" were, but no one would acknowledge what it was or what the organization was doing.

 

Those of us who studied in Math in grad school probably have colleagues who worked for the NSA at some point.

 

That is my preface to my comment that I am shocked that anyone was surprised by this. The NSA has been tooling along for decades and then the Patriot Act gave the agency even more power.

 

Congress approved. We elect our Congress people. Why is anyone surprised?

[PrincessMommy]

Orwell must be smiling in his grave. As somebody who grew up in a totalitarian country, it baffles me that people are so unmoved by the massive erosion of privacy. Once you lose freedom, it's much harder to get it back.

 

I think the new motto in America should be: Safety first - Freedom last.

 

I have several friends from former soviet bloc countries. They all say very similar things, and they've been saying it for quite sometime. I'm very concerned about this issue and what it means for our future as a truly free country, but I'm still wading through it all too.

 

A year or two ago I discovered that police can scan your tags as you drive by and figure out stuff about the car/owner. I remember bringing it up somewhere online about the loss of freedom and several others responded that it's just fine with them by using the "we want to be safe from the bad guys." argument. I was completely baffled and saddened that many people didn't see anything wrong with it.

[nmoira]

The Guardian is not the only news site reporting on this:

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/us-intelligence-mining-data-from-nine-us-internet-companies-in-broad-secret-program/2013/06/06/3a0c0da8-cebf-11e2-8845-d970ccb04497_story.html

 

Of course Google, Yahoo, Facebook are denying any involvement.

 

True. Some of the tech sites (The Verge, Ars Technica) are doing a good job too. I just linked the Guardian pages because they broke the story.

 

:)

[Caroline]

I grew up near NSA. It seemed like everyone had at least one parent who worked for The Agency. (Not me. My dad worked for the Dept. of Agriculture, which is neither secret nor exciting, although can be controversial.) I, too, don't understand why people are surprised. This has been going on for years.

 

For years, the NSA did not officially exist, that is, everyone knew it existed and where its offices and "big ears" were, but no one would acknowledge what it was or what the organization was doing.

 

Those of us who studied in Math in grad school probably have colleagues who worked for the NSA at some point.

 

That is my preface to my comment that I am shocked that anyone was surprised by this. The NSA has been tooling along for decades and then the Patriot Act gave the agency even more power.

 

Congress approved. We elect our Congress people. Why is anyone surprised?

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

For years, the NSA did not officially exist, that is, everyone knew it existed and where its offices and "big ears" were, but no one would acknowledge what it was or what the organization was doing.

 

Those of us who studied in Math in grad school probably have colleagues who worked for the NSA at some point.

 

That is my preface to my comment that I am shocked that anyone was surprised by this. The NSA has been tooling along for decades and then the Patriot Act gave the agency even more power.

 

Congress approved. We elect our Congress people. Why is anyone surprised?

 

 

 

I wasn't surprised either, I just assumed privacy was a myth. It is a myth.

[Jane in NC]

I wasn't surprised either, I just assumed privacy was a myth. It is a myth.

Yet people are thrilled to give private information to corporations. Facebook anyone?

[nmoira]

I grew up near NSA. It seemed like everyone had at least one parent who worked for The Agency. (Not me. My dad worked for the Dept. of Agriculture, which is neither secret nor exciting, although can be controversial.) I, too, don't understand why people are surprised. This has been going on for years.

 

But just because we suspect they're doing something most (? I'm not sure anymore) would deem unacceptable doesn't mean we shouldn't fight back when there's proof. There needs to be a public discussion, particularly about safeguards. "But, terrorism!" doesn't count as discussion, KWIM? And that's what's been used as excuse to evade transparency since before the Patriot Act was first passed.

[Roadrunner]

 

Yet people are thrilled to give private information to corporations. Facebook anyone?

 

 

Nobody worries facebook agents will show up at your door, accuse you of wrongdoing and make you disappear for years in a prison cell without trial. Government can. I never thought I would ever fear anything like that in the U.S., but I no longer think we are immune. Did anybody link this article from the Atlantic? This is what I am trying to say.

"All the infrastructure a tyrant would need"

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/06/all-the-infrastructure-a-tyrant-would-need-courtesy-of-bush-and-obama/276635/

 

 

[tammyw]

Nobody worries facebook agents will show up at your door, accuse you of wrongdoing and make you disappear for years in a prison cell without trial. Government can. I never thought I would ever fear anything like that in the U.S., but I no longer think we are immune. Did anybody link this article from the Atlantic? This is what I am trying to say.

"All the infrastructure a tyrant would need"

http://www.theatlant...d-obama/276635/

 

That's a scary and thought provoking article. I only recently read 1984, for the first time. I've always felt there was little privacy, but all of a sudden, I started feeling a little paranoid when I was doing certain searches online (history stuff).

[Slartibartfast]

I think this has been reported on for awhile but major outlets didn't seem to be carrying the story.

 

I wish people had been upset by it years ago when it was, "you're either for us or against us." I am glad to see more people are now concerned about this issue.

 

 

I don't give much credit to Assange and Manning because they endangered people but I agree some of that content should have been shared.

[PrincessMommy]

The fact that they've been "doing it for years" and "why should anyone be surprised by this?" is not the issue.... and it doesn't mean we should just move along and act like there's nothing to see here.

[Dandelion]

I have a huge problem with the massive loss of freedom and violation of privacy rights going on in the name of "national security". One of the things that struck me from the interview with Edward Snowden is that intelligence agencies appear to be using this broad brush approach (collecting data on millions of regular citizens without cause) simply because it's "easier" than a more targeted approach. Really?? Wow. Convenience should never be allowed to trump our constitutional rights.

 

I'd like to see some data on how all this extra intelligence-gathering and data-mining has improved national security. Are we really that much more secure now since all of this started? Are terrorist threats being addressed more effectively as a result?

 

A year or two ago I discovered that police can scan your tags as you drive by and figure out stuff about the car/owner. I remember bringing it up somewhere online about the loss of freedom and several others responded that it's just fine with them by using the "we want to be safe from the bad guys." argument. I was completely baffled and saddened that many people didn't see anything wrong with it.

 

That kind of apathy scares me too.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

The fact that they've been "doing it for years" and "why should anyone be surprised by this?" is not the issue.... and it doesn't mean we should just move along and act like there's nothing to see here.

 

 

 

Well, I don't expect privacy. I don't think I ever have. Gathering and collecting information, "spying" if you will, is standard practice in some form or another for governments. This includes spying on their own people. I do have concerns as to what they plan to do with the information since all the incarnations of the Patriot Act and it's affiliated legislation.

[elegantlion]

 

That's a scary and thought provoking article. I only recently read 1984, for the first time. I've always felt there was little privacy, but all of a sudden, I started feeling a little paranoid when I was doing certain searches online (history stuff).

 

As a writer (I currently write rough drafts;), someday I'll be a writer of real novels) I often think consider how to phrase some of my search terms, especially when I'm working on certain stories.

[Slartibartfast]

 

As a writer (I currently write rough drafts;), someday I'll be a writer of real novels) I often think consider how to phrase some of my search terms, especially when I'm working on certain stories.

 

 

:lol:

 

You aren't kidding. I don't know how many times I have been looking things up only to realize how suspicious it would seem.

[Jane in NC]

The fact that they've been "doing it for years" and "why should anyone be surprised by this?" is not the issue.... and it doesn't mean we should just move along and act like there's nothing to see here.

But I think it is. Where was the outrage with the Patriot Act?

 

Some of us who considered whether we should apply for jobs at the NSA perhaps had some of these ethical conversations year ago. My husband also works in cyber security so I don't want the public to move along. I have been told for years that I am paranoid. Please have the conversation! Let's just not pretend that this is something new.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

Where was the outrage with the Patriot Act?

 

 

I was outraged,vocal about it, and told I was unpatriotic for not supporting the sitting POTUS.

[Audrey]

It's fine to talk about it, but what are you going to DO about it?

 

That's a conversation that would interest me. The whinging about how the big bad government is treating everyone so atrociously? Not so much. That's not even news.

[Word Nerd]

 

 

I was outraged,vocal about it, and told I was unpatriotic for not supporting the sitting POTUS.

 

 

I was as well. Though it's nice to see others (finally) noticing these things for the moment, people have very short memories and will likely move on soon.

[elegantlion]

It's fine to talk about it, but what are you going to DO about it?

 

 

 

That's my question. What can we do? Any real conversation in my area would jump to partisan finger pointing before a meeting was even scheduled.

[PrincessMommy]

But I think it is. Where was the outrage with the Patriot Act?

 

Some of us who considered whether we should apply for jobs at the NSA perhaps had some of these ethical conversations year ago. My husband also works in cyber security so I don't want the public to move along. I have been told for years that I am paranoid. Please have the conversation! Let's just not pretend that this is something new.

 

 

I totally agree.

[Mrs Mungo]

Do I think they are going through my personal emails? No, not really. Unless I did something, said something that would flag me. They can already tell what kind of person I am from an algorithm in Google.

 

I am a military wife. Words creep into my emails all the time when I am putting out perfectly innocuous information to other wives. I have had emails intercepted by DHS. You receive an email saying that it has been intercepted.

[FaithManor]

But I think it is. Where was the outrage with the Patriot Act?

 

Some of us who considered whether we should apply for jobs at the NSA perhaps had some of these ethical conversations year ago. My husband also works in cyber security so I don't want the public to move along. I have been told for years that I am paranoid. Please have the conversation! Let's just not pretend that this is something new.

 

Agreed!

 

I will admit that Dh and are on a watch list and not for the reasons you all might think either. We had a run in with an FBI agent up to no good on the job, and ended up getting him fired. However, we ended up with our lawyer and the local sheriff involved, so I'm pretty certain that in this day and age of severe government paranoia, we are on a watch list for coming into the crosshairs of an angry federal agent. Good thing dh is good buddies with the retired sheriff, the current sheriff, and two of the local judges...at least we have some people to go to for legal advice and inside support.

 

Add to that the fact that we have high powered rocket licenses through NAR, dh has a pyrotechnics license, I routinely order unusual elements from United Nuclear (including several pieces of uranium ore for my elements collection), and my cousin is the leading expert on Great Lakes invasive species and pollution and is VERY vocal about the government's lack of ambition for dealing with the problems, oh and another cousin is a reformed computer hacker that got out of jail on a deal to help a government agency crack a cyber hacking network, then yep....it's a wonder we don't have agents circling the block on a daily basis!

 

I'd love to have a true debate about this. In our area, people don't roll over lightly on these things. The supervisor of the questionable FBI agent told us that even being self-sufficient or having alternative energy sources so that one is not entirely dependent on the infrastructure is considered "suspicious" and gets you on a watch list. That's a little scary if you ask me!!!!!

 

Faith

[Caroline]

 

But I think it is. Where was the outrage with the Patriot Act?

 

Some of us who considered whether we should apply for jobs at the NSA perhaps had some of these ethical conversations year ago. My husband also works in cyber security so I don't want the public to move along. I have been told for years that I am paranoid. Please have the conversation! Let's just not pretend that this is something new.

 

I agree with Jane. Where was the outrage when the reason was communism instead of terrorism?

 

I agree we should be having the conversation. I just think many of us have been having the conversation for years.

 

People have been taken and held by government agents with no cause. Try flying with a Muslim last name and insulin needles and see how fast you disappear.

 

It's not new. That doesn't mean I don't think it is wrong. I just am shocked at how many people are just now getting upset.

[FaithManor]

 

 

I was outraged,vocal about it, and told I was unpatriotic for not supporting the sitting POTUS.

 

 

US TOO!!!! The insults were big.

 

We lawyered up. After calling, writing, etc. an actual blitz to our sitting representatives in state and federal government, we decided to keep a lawyer on retainer just in case because no.one.listened. We voted our conscience in the next election, refusing to support anyone we had contacted who turned a deaf ear, but I'm not certain what else we can do. Our representative government is failing big time as it's propensity to refuse to listen to the people gets exponentially worse.

 

Faith

[Slartibartfast]

US TOO!!!! The insults were big.

 

 

They really were, I found it disturbing.

 

We lawyered up. After calling, writing, etc. an actual blitz to our sitting representatives in state and federal government, we decided to keep a lawyer on retainer just in case because no.one.listened. We voted our conscience in the next election, refusing to support anyone we had contacted who turned a deaf ear, but I'm not certain what else we can do. Our representative government is failing big time as it's propensity to refuse to listen to the people gets exponentially worse.

 

Faith

 

 

That's true. There is really no choice either, we either have guy A or guy B and both seem to be rather similar. They don't usually permit third party candidates to participate in debates and are not given much coverage.

[Butter]

When I was growing up, we referred to the NSA as No Such Agency. The creation of DHS didn't cause this for the record. DHS centralized some things that were part of other angencies. For example, we've always had Customs and Border Protection (the largest part of DHS today), it was just under a different department. Same with TSA and other parts of DHS. Stuff like this was around before the Patriot Act, but the Patriot Act exploded it all and gave way more control to the government than ever should have been allowed.

 

Maybe because I grew up in the DC area where politics is local news, but none of this surprises me.

 

A few years ago I heard something (okay, GlennBecksaidit). He said if McCain had been elected he probably would have done a lot of the stuff Obama was doing. Maybe he would have done it slower. Maybe not. But because if that R next to his name, people would have just ignored what he was doing just like they ignored the crap W did. We've woken up and are seeing what is going on and that it doesn't matter if there is a D or R next to their name, so many are screwing us over.

[TranquilMind]

I think this has been reported on for awhile but major outlets didn't seem to be carrying the story.

 

I wish people had been upset by it years ago when it was, "you're either for us or against us." I am glad to see more people are now concerned about this issue.

 

 

I don't give much credit to Assange and Manning because they endangered people but I agree some of that content should have been shared.

 

 

Non-mainstream sources have been shouting this from the rooftops for years, and people dismissed them as "tinfoil hat" wackos.

 

It's always that way. The truth is always dismissed at first.

[nmoira]

Something like...we have never heard of Prism...we take our customers privacy seriously... we'd only do this with a court order....etc.

 

Techdirt had a good analysis of what's known about the "direct access" assertion.

 

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130608/09315223373/more-details-prism-revealed-twitter-deserves-kudos-refusing-to-give.shtml?_format=full

[Hot Lava Mama]

Unless I did something, said something that would flag me.

Right. Just make sure your political beliefs are in line with the administration in power. You will have to change beliefs when power changes parties, so just make sure you are on top of whether a "D" or "R" is in power at the time. That way, you can have the "appropriate" beliefs so you don't get "flagged".

Hot Lava Mama

[Roadrunner]

I should figure out which ones are forbidden words. :)

 

This is just the beginning,of the technological revolution. What happens in 200 years when technology becomes much more sophisticated?

[Audrey]

That's my question. What can we do? Any real conversation in my area would jump to partisan finger pointing before a meeting was even scheduled.

 

 

You can organize a grassroots protest. You can keep it in the media eye even when the PTB try to spin your attention away to other shinier objects. You can VOTE and keep VOTING out the people who have put it all into place and/or supported it and/or continue to support it.

 

But, it's not my country (anymore)... it's yours. Take it back.

[Reflections]

Techdirt had a good analysis of what's known about the "direct access" assertion.

 

http://www.techdirt....ml?_format=full

 

 

So both the Wash Post article and the tech companies denials are both correct. And even though they are using storage facilities for the government to have access to they are still gaining access when the want to real time data and have been in the offices of the tech companies collecting data.

 

From the article:

 

In the end, it appears that the initial Washington Post report was overblown in that it suggested direct access to all servers, rather than specific servers, set up to provide information that was required. That said, it is still true that the FISA Court appears to issue a fair number of secret orders for information from a variety of technology companies, some of them quite broad, and that many of the biggest tech companies have set up systems to make it easier to give the NSA/FBI and others access to that info -- though, they are often required by law to provide that information. The real outrage remains that all of this is happening in complete secrecy, where there is little real oversight to stop this from being abused. As we noted just a few weeks ago, the FISA Court has become a rubber stamp, rejecting no requests at all in the past two years.

[TrixieB]

I should figure out which ones are forbidden words. :)

 

This is just the beginning,of the technological revolution. What happens in 200 years when technology becomes much more sophisticated?

 

I'll bet Spock knows. Or Data...

[Stellalarella]

Yeesh. I suppose it's really bad to do a search on how to send emails that won't be read.

[nmoira]

Whoa, this thread completely disappeared on me... had to find it via Google.

 

I found this a thought provoking read:

 

Using metadata to find Paul Revere

http://kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2013/06/09/using-metadata-to-find-paul-revere/

[Spy Car]

Googling this thread is a bad idea ;)

 

Jim